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aranelthehobbit22
Gondor
May 9 2010, 4:33pm
Post #1 of 5
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Question about Frodo, HOMe, Bronwe athan harthad
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I have heard that in an early draft of the chapter "Many Partings" Gandalf gives Frodo the name "Bronwe athan harthad" meaning "Endurance beyond hope", and that supposedly you can see something about it in one of the History of Middle-earth books. Can anyone give me a direct quote about this or tell me which one it is in? Thanks so much.
'Help oft shall come from the hands of the weak when the Wise falter.' "Yet in that hour was put to the proof that which Mithrandir had spoken, and help came from the hands of the weak when the Wise faltered."
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squire
Half-elven
May 9 2010, 5:44pm
Post #2 of 5
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Here is the passage you are interested in
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Here is the passage you are interested in, from the chapter "Many Partings" in Sauron Defeated; The History of Middle-earth Vol. 10. It is on page 62 of my hardback 1992 edition:
And when the burial was over and the last song was ended there was a great feast in the hall...[the kings of the Mark are named and toasted] ...And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail [note 5] ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad, Endurance beyond Hope and Hope unquenchable.' [note 6] And to those names men drank in honour; but Sam went very red, and murmured to Frodo: 'I don't know what my Dad would think of the change: he was always against outlandish names. "The gentry can do as they please," he said, "with their Roriuses and Ronshuses, but for plain folk something shorter wears better." But even if I could say the name, I think it don't suit. My hope ... ...... low, Mr. Frodo, .... .... ....' [note 7]
NOTES by Christopher Tolkien, editor
[Note 5] In wished him hail (if correctly read) in the preceding sentence hail means 'health, happiness, welfare'; in Gandalf's Here is a last hail the word seems to be used elliptically, as if 'Here is a last drinking (of) hail'. [Note 6] The word that I give as athan is very unclear and uncertain. [Note 7] Gandalf's praise of Frodo and Sam, and this engaging glimpse of the Gaffer amid the ceremoniousness of Edoras, had disappeared in the second text. Ronshus is evidently his clipped form of Gerontius, the name of the Old Took; and I suppose that he attached the 'learned' or high-falutin ending -us to Rory (Brandybuck). But the Gaffer's views were not entirely lost. When discussing with Frodo the name of his eldest child ('The Grey Havens', RK p. 306) Sam said: 'I've heard some beautiful names on my travels, but I suppose they're a bit too grand for daily wear and tear, as you might say. The Gaffer, he says: "Make it short, and then you won't have to cut it short before you can use it."' - Sam's final remark is unfortunately altogether illegible; the word preceding low might possibly be getting, or pretty, but the word preceding that is certainly not was.
All of the above text comes from the first draft manuscript (CT calls it 'A'). Tolkien wrote out two more drafts, with material added as new ideas and requirements occurred to him. The final draft ('C') is apparently the text of the published chapter, with just a few more changes introduced at the galley proof stage. As with so much of History of Middle-earth, CT does not give the entire texts of these drafts, but only quotes from the "interesting" parts that shed light on Tolkien's creativity or on the way the final story developed. This passage, then, is a rarer instance of Tolkien cutting, rather than enlarging, his writing on revision, yet "interesting" enough that CT lets us see it. Probably this was because of the introduction of Sam's and the Gaffer's thoughts on big names, rather than the idea that Gandalf tried to coin Rohirric (=Old English) names for Frodo and Sam. If I may say so, I can see why Tolkien left this part out on reconsideration. Frodo and Sam deserved the honor of the Mark, of course, but their story and Theoden's story intersected the least of all the threads in the larger tale. I like how it is, with the focus on Merry as a knight of Rohan and friend of Eomer and Eowyn.
squire online: RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'. Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!" squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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squire
Half-elven
May 9 2010, 7:13pm
Post #3 of 5
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I commented at the end of my post above that the names Gandalf gave Frodo and Sam (Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad, Endurance beyond Hope and Hope unquenchable) were Rohirric or Old English. My mistake: the names are Sindarin Elvish. I had assumed that in a toast made in the great hall of Edoras, Gandalf would bestow names on the two hobbits that the "bards and minstrels" of Rohan could actually make use of in their songs. Since nowhere is it given that those songmasters (or anyone else in Rohan) would know or perform in Elvish, I said the words were Old English, which is what Tolkien uses for Rohan's language. I should have known better just from the forms of the words! Oops. But I remain confused about the use of Elvish in this setting...although of course it is all moot since Tolkien did erase the entire speech.
squire online: RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'. Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!" squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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aranelthehobbit22
Gondor
May 10 2010, 1:39am
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Many thanks! I first heard about this because of what someone had commented on YouTube, and have since been really curious about it. I do agree, that renaming ceremony, though nice, wasn't exactly as appropriate in Rohan, Frodo and Sam, though their quest was much to the advantage of the people of Rohan, no contact or relationships with any of the people of Rohan. It was nice to keep the hobbit focus there on Merry, since he was close to Theoden for a time and he rode with the Lady. Again, thank you for this!
'Help oft shall come from the hands of the weak when the Wise falter.' "Yet in that hour was put to the proof that which Mithrandir had spoken, and help came from the hands of the weak when the Wise faltered."
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