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NottaSackville
Valinor
Mar 26 2010, 3:47pm
Post #101 of 149
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How did drasils turn into wargs?
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Both in terms of the animals (which seems like not too large a jump) and in terms of the words/etymologies? I see from Wikipedia that warg also comes from Norse mythology, and that there is a tradition of Norse mythology creatures riding wolves. Wikipedia also indicates that wolf-riding orcs appeared in "an early version of the story of Beren and Lutthien written in the 1920s". So maybe wolves turned into drasils, who then turned back into wargs? Is there a stronger link here than just two words from Norse mythology (actually, is drasil actually from Norse mythology? Wikipedia doesn't give a reference for that point...) that indicate things people ride? Does there need to be? BTW - the reference to a gallows being a hanged man's horse seems reasonable to me - a horse supports its rider above the ground, as does the gallows. I see the flaws there, but somehow that analogy works for me. Notta
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GAndyalf
Valinor
Mar 26 2010, 4:14pm
Post #102 of 149
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Thank you, my Lady! I quite agree that as the years wore on (by the new forward it was ten years) the professor very likely DID grow quite annoyed at the continual pontificating of critics assuming allegory in very specific manners and agree with you that what he said in the foreword was probably more pointed than I interpreted it and likely aimed directly at those critics, as that entire portion of the foreward was addressed to criticisms of LotR. That is REALLY COOL about roman a cle. I know the medieval Church was very fond of such stories as religious parable (think the Nun's Tale in Chaucer) but I hadn't considered it as a secular genre. Yep, agree with you in your conclusion. Metaphor and symbolism are wholly 'applicable' (well, MOST metaphor anyway) whereas allegory is much more directly and purposefully linked.
"Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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GAndyalf
Valinor
Mar 26 2010, 4:33pm
Post #103 of 149
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I think this is another work of Tolkien's where he reached into his feelings for the universal that we all feel. It's not among my favourites because for me the allegory is just a bit heavy-handed here and I far prefer Smith of Wooton Major among works of this kind. But Niggle is still a wonderful story with some great "views through a window" as another poster quoted Frodo's view into Lorien. One of my favourite comments by Professor Tolkien regarding why it took so very long to write LotR was, "...and it had to be typed and re-typed - by me, the cost of professional typing by the ten-fingered was beyond my means." I think that illustrates your comment about 'skill' delaying something wonderful, something important - and perhaps adding to the boiling pot of Story that perhaps, somehow is necessary. My Tree? I'm a wannabe writer and like Niggle (and Tolkien) I've re-done my works so many times that you could probably write a series similar to HoME based upon my drafts. For me Tolkien set the bar very high, and I tell myself that if I could only write 1/3 as well as he I should be a very happy writer. I will be 49 in two months and two days and 50 appears to be a significant age for Tolkien characters (though he himself was "only" 45 when The Hobbit was published!) so perhaps then I'll find the clarity of purpose to fix my stylistic flaws and write a 'middle' that matches my beginnings and ends of stories (at least in my mind). I will be able to as long as I keep tending "my tree" and pouring the water of my Love and the fertilizer of my Thought into it. With a measure of fortune to have a long enough Life, of course! (chuckle) Since you preface your next question I am disqualified from answering. The last question is an 'or' so I'm not certain whether your previous prohibition still applies or not?
"Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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GAndyalf
Valinor
Mar 26 2010, 4:50pm
Post #104 of 149
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There were several additionals I wanted to do, but there is plenty of time "We have ALL the day before us..." (chuckle) "Tres anios para los reyes de los trascos Bajo del cielo Siete para los maridos de los enanos En sus parinanfos del piedra Nueve para hombres mortales Sentenciar a muerte Uno para el Marido Oscuro En su trono oscuro Un anio a regir todos los Un anio a hallarlos Un anio a traer todos los Y en la obscuridad ligarlos En la Tierra de Mordor Adonde mentiran los Sombras" I made a few errors in it, such as originally I had "sortijas" for "anios" when sortija is a very different sort of 'ring'. Also 'mentiran' is the sort of lying as in an untruth and not the usual interpretation of being where something lies, but for a high school kid in his second year of the language, not TOO bad.
"Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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GAndyalf
Valinor
Mar 26 2010, 4:55pm
Post #105 of 149
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Tuor's guide, but nowhere near to the depth brought by "our" Voronwe's post. It explains a great deal why this elf's name came to be the embodiment of faithfulness to a hard task.
"Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Tweezers of Thu
Rivendell
Mar 26 2010, 4:58pm
Post #106 of 149
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Oh, yes! Even after 44 years (gasp!)...
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...I still find nuances in JRRT's legendarium, even in very familiar stuff! Tolkien's elaborations of the Drúedain in both Unfinished Tales and The Peoples of Middle-earth are worth a read. Just more that adds to the richness of his sub-creation and gives it that heady mix of reality and Faerie. Ha! Yes, indeed, my son (now in his early 20s) and I have some interesting discussions! He read The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings at age 12 (and multiple times since then) so when we ambled to the Harvard Square theatre in 2001 to see PJ's The FotR, he was already indoctrinated with the books. But we, along with the rest of the family enjoyed the movies, although he did crack me up when, upon Elrond's first appearance on-screen, he said, "Look, Mom! There's Mitzi!" in reference to Hugo Weaving's role as "Mitzi del Bra" in Priscilla, Queen of the Desert. Anyway, I gave him a lovely Nasmith-illustrated edition ot The Silmarillion a couple of years ago, too, and he periodically looks at bits and pieces of The HoMe. Not long ago, while driving back home from a movie, we got into a heated argument concerning volcanism and Númenor (he and I are both "round earthers" per "Myths Transformed"); his younger teenaged sister was mortified at our "nerdiness", as she put it. Your entry on Kirith Ungol is wonderful! That particular bit in The Two Towers gave me the creeps as a kid (a wolf spider bit me when I was a toddler so I have some degree of arachnophobia) so this has always resonated with me. Tolkien's illustrations highlight his characteristic noodling with his conceptions, and the illustrations you posted demonstrate this beautifully. Another neat bit is the idea of Mordor being fortified, but that it's not Mordor trying to keep intruders out.
Gothmog and Draugluin on the Silmarillion Writers' Guild Newsletter
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Tweezers of Thu
Rivendell
Mar 26 2010, 5:36pm
Post #107 of 149
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Another example! Flame-eyed Elves!
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The Sindarin word for an Elf who had lived in Aman was lachenn (plural lachinn), which translates as "flame-eyed". The moniker was given thanks to the light of the Two Trees that was captured in the Noldorin exiles' eyes. So these are not quite glowing like Gollum's peepers or an angry Wose, but there clearly is something more intense going on. Perhaps some funky Rayleigh scattering in Noldorin irises? Re: the Woses. You're quite welcome, and likewise, thanks for the post on X-ray vision! I got a kick out of your offering in a big way, especially the "science-y" part. With a nod to FarFromHome's remarks, yes, this is an imaginary history, and as Michael Ramer (I think it was Ramer) said (paraphrasing) in "The Notion Club Papers", sometimes only the mysterious wave of the wizard's wand will do in lieu of a "scientifictitious" explanation. However, it's difficult, if not impossible, for us scientists who are also Tolkien fans to refrain from speculation on such matters. And, after all, Tolkien practically invited us to do so (cf. his letter to Peter Hastings). Anyway, I'll hop in with some responses: 3) Do the dwarves eyes really glow, or is that poetic license? Mythic hyperbole. 4) Does Tolkien's ray-vision bother you? Not really. I mean, I suspend belief with regard to humans with indefinite longevity and jewelry that confers invisibility, but I confess that I do speculate in a "scientifictitious" manner which no doubt would appall the old Oxford don. 5) In a world where Smaug is both large enough that he can ruin entire mountain sides, his fall splinters an entire town and causes the lake to come "roaring in", but yet small enough to traverse through Dwarven tunnels killing the dwarves and collecting all their treasure, and a world where Smaug is capable of living in a vast wasteland with no food, coming out so infrequently that entire generations doubt he exists and yet he's capable of generating large amounts of energy and flame at a moments notice, is it wrong that what bothers me is his glowing eyes? Not at all. We all have our quirks. Mine happen to be astronomical bodies created from fruit. 7) Do I now need to forgive P. Jackson his laser-beam Sauron, since not only did he not really invent the idea, but it's practically canon for Tolkien's major evil creatures to have ray-vision? Well, my Big Boss (that would be Thû) has not forgiven P. Jackson for portraying him as a giant lighthouse, so he doesn't see why you should either.
Gothmog and Draugluin in the Silmarillion Writers' Guild Newsletter
(This post was edited by Tweezers of Thu on Mar 26 2010, 5:37pm)
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Rosie-with-the-ribbons
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 26 2010, 6:59pm
Post #109 of 149
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if that is correct Spanish, I don't get that far. I went to Spain to see the LOTR-exhibition and luckily everything was also in English. For all I could say in Spanish was that I couldn't speak Spanish (at least, I think I said it, because most people stopped talking in Spanish after that ). I really like to read it, can pick up some words, getting it from French and the little I know of Spanish. I could give you the Dutch version, but I don't really like that version, they tried to get it into rhyme too much, and with that missed some rather significant words.
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Evernight
Rivendell
Mar 26 2010, 7:03pm
Post #110 of 149
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Al leer eso me imaginé a Doña Sauron y su marido Sauron en su torre de Mordor discutiendo por la obsesión del señor de la casa con las joyas, aun mayor que la de su señora. I don't have any examples at hand, but I know that some english authors would want to kill me if they read my early school translations of their works, lol.
In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit...
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GAndyalf
Valinor
Mar 26 2010, 7:14pm
Post #111 of 149
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But no, it's not correct Spanish. I was a 2nd year HS student and not good enough to get it right.
"Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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GAndyalf
Valinor
Mar 26 2010, 7:16pm
Post #112 of 149
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But you have to admit, that's pretty incredible that I remembered the entire thing after more than thirty years as I had translated it and not the correct version.
"Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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GAndyalf
Valinor
Mar 26 2010, 7:21pm
Post #113 of 149
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Technically the thanks and it's modifier have to agree in gender (mucho is masculine but gracias is feminine so it would be 'muchas'). Yes, it's a very difficult thing to translate poetry and still get it close to what the author is actually talking about. John Ciardi does a great explanation of this in his foreword to his translation of Dante's Inferno and John M. Ford has a wonderful bit he passes on in his novel The Final Reflection by relaying the Italian proverb transducciore tradditore (the translator is a traitor).
"Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 27 2010, 12:09am
Post #115 of 149
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I couldn't figure out NEBs nick for YEARS, and when I met him that was one of the first questions I asked. Of course I felt silly after he explained. Massive kudos to the Reading Room and the Tolkien Reading Day organizers and contributors. That was most excellent fun!
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Mar 27 2010, 1:13am
Post #116 of 149
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Thanks, NEB! Was that a Freudian slip on my part? - I only know him through this "virtual" medium, after all... And apologies to visualweasel for mangling his nick!
They went in, and Sam shut the door. But even as he did so, he heard suddenly, deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth. From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Mar 27 2010, 1:16am)
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Mar 27 2010, 1:42am
Post #117 of 149
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Isn't Cerin Amroth where Arwen died?
Kangi Ska The Hobbit Deserves More Respect! At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Mar 27 2010, 2:05am
Post #118 of 149
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The answer to Smaug's powers...
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Cold Fusion!
Kangi Ska The Hobbit Deserves More Respect! At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Mar 27 2010, 3:01am
Post #119 of 149
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Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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GAndyalf
Valinor
Mar 27 2010, 3:18am
Post #120 of 149
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It is indeed where Arwen lay herself down to pass in the Fourth Age. It would appear the mound meant as much to her as it did to Aragorn. But that begs the question, does Arwen's choice mean that she chose where she was betrothed, or was it because it was indeed "the heart of Elvendom on earth." as Aragorn had told Frodo, or possibly was it both?
"Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Mar 27 2010, 3:38am
Post #121 of 149
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I thank you for arguing so close to the point I made in my essay... your voice was greatly appreciated!
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Mar 27 2010, 4:09am
Post #122 of 149
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A statement that "begs the question" is a circular argument: "Chocolate is healthful because it's good for you" begs the question, "Why is chocolate healthful?". We see "begs the question" used synonymously with "raises the question" often, but that doesn't make it correct. But you raise a good question, and one for which there is no canonical answer. I personally feel quite certain that it was because that was the scene of her betrothal.
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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GAndyalf
Valinor
Mar 27 2010, 5:57am
Post #123 of 149
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Which then BEGS the question of WHY was it the place of her betrothal? Your point is well-taken though I'd never heard anyone object before to a more liberal use of the phrase. I suspect that the blurring is due to the idea that to the writer that uses them interchangeably the question is 'begged' by their own curiousity and not by, as you rightly point out, an actual logical hole that needs filled.
"Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Modtheow
Lorien
Mar 27 2010, 1:49pm
Post #124 of 149
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As you say, it's an unexpectedly realistic story about a relationship. I know we have the Ents and the Entwives with a similar gap between male and female priorities, but the Aldarion and Erendis story -- characters with an entire story focusing on their relationship -- does read more like a tale about people that we're likely to know. Maybe stories of Númenor all carry its doom about them, but then again, maybe all stories from Middle-earth are shot through with some kind of sadness no matter how well they end up.
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Modtheow
Lorien
Mar 27 2010, 1:57pm
Post #125 of 149
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Thank you to N.E. Brigand and everyone else who contributed to the idea for this thread. I've been away from the Reading Room for a long time, so I feel lucky to have dropped back in just in time for this discussion. There is so much to read and think about here, I plan to savour the various posts over a number of days. A great Tolkien Reading Day experience at TORn!
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