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Alex Maglor
Nevrast
Mar 12 2010, 11:00am
Post #1 of 58
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Hugo Weaving as Red Skull
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If Hugo Weaving does the upcoming Captain's America movie...what will happen whit The Hobbit and Elrond?
http://www.comingsoon.net/news/movienews.php?id=64180
Hugo Weaving ("The Lord of the Rings" and "The Matrix" trilogies) is reportedly in talks to play the villain Red Skull in Marvel Studios' The First Avenger: Captain America.
If he takes on the role, Weaving would be reuniting with The Wolfman director Joe Johnston.
Johnston and the studio are currently casting Steve Rogers/Captain America.
The film is expected to hit theaters on July 22, 2011.
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Mar 12 2010, 3:26pm
Post #2 of 58
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Elronds involvement in the Hobbit story line is rather limited.//
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Kangi Ska
At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.
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L. Ron Halfelven
Hithlum
Mar 12 2010, 5:17pm
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Read the moon-letters, say "14 of you must do this", and you're done./
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I don't want to go to work today
But the master of the whip says nay, nay, nay.
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Mar 12 2010, 5:19pm
Post #4 of 58
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There is the White Council and he reappears near the end of the story.//
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Kangi Ska
At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Mar 12 2010, 7:57pm
Post #5 of 58
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Still, he should be able to fit it all in.//
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Christmas, 1934, by Father Christmas
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Mar 12 2010, 8:43pm
Post #6 of 58
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Yes that is the point I was reaching for.
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Like Cate Blanchett did with Lotr.
Kangi Ska
At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Mar 12 2010, 10:41pm
Post #8 of 58
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I am certain that he was stated as a member of the White Council but
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Maybe he was not along on the action against the Necromancer.
Kangi Ska
At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Mar 13 2010, 12:18am
Post #9 of 58
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There is actually nothing that says that Elrond was not a part of the White Council or even that he was not involved in the action at Dol Guldur. It is indeed a fact that Gandalf Is delivering the entire tale to the gathered household and he would not have passed over the White Council's part in this oral presentation of the events.
"Then the elves of the valley came out and greeted them and led them
across the water to the house of Elrond. There a warm welcome was made them,
and there were many eager ears that evening to hear the tale of their
adventures. Gandalf it was who spoke, for Bilbo was fallen quiet and drowsy.
Most of the tale he knew, for he had been in it, and had himself told much
of it to the wizard on their homeward way or in the house of Beorn; but
every now and again he would open one eye, and listen, when a part of the
story which he did not yet know came in. It was in this way that he learned
where Gandalf had been to; for he overheard the words of the wizard to
Elrond. It appeared that Gandalf had been to a great council of the white
wizards, masters of lore and good magic; and that they had at last driven
the Necromancer from his dark hold in the south of Mirkwood." The Hobbit
Kangi Ska
At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Mar 13 2010, 12:24am
Post #10 of 58
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...was first made the Council of the Wise that is called the White Council, and therein were Elrond and Galadriel and Círdan, and other lords of the Eldar, and with them were Mithrandir and Curunír." (From On the Rings of Power and the Third Age - last part of the published Silmarillion)
As for that conversation months after the Dol Guldur affair, Bilbo's adventure tells us only this:
"It was in this way that he learned where Gandalf had been to; for he overheard the words of the wizard to Elrond. It appeared that Gandalf had been to a great council of the white wizards, masters of lore and good magic; and that they had at last driven the Necromancer from his dark hold in the south of Mirkwood."
Unless you've found something I missed, we only know that Bilbo overheard a conversation from which he deduced what had been going on. Elrond and Gandalf might have been rehashing what they both did at Dol Guldur, or discussing what to do next. By this point in the story, surely Bilbo's not so slow on the uptake that he would have needed to hear a straight report from Gandalf to Elrond to figure out what had been going on? (Of course, this "council of the white wizards" isn't quite right - so we'll have to assume Bilbo didn't quite figure everything out after all!)
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Mar 13 2010, 12:39am
Post #11 of 58
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At the time of writing The Hobbit, its "Elrond" wasn't the Halfelven of the mythology as it developed. It sounds to me as though this is another instance of revisionism on Tolkien's part: the White Council in The Hobbit was a gathering of "good wizards", which only later Tolkien "realized" was a council of The Wise of which Elrond along with Galadriel and Cirdan were members.
But that's niggling. If The Hobbit movie is "Part 1" of the series, then Elrond has to be on the Council. On the other hand, he wasn't necessarily a part of the action at Dol Guldur, and so plausibly Gandalf could be bringing news of events that Elrond mightn't have heard about yet.
Christmas, 1934, by Father Christmas
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Mar 13 2010, 12:40am)
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Mar 13 2010, 12:46am
Post #12 of 58
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The Encyclopedia of Arda says he was one of the Original members.
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And I believe that it is correct. The point of contention is in regards to The Hobbit text that I quoted under "On Closer Reading". Squire appears to believe that this contradicts Elronds membership in the White Council. I explain why that ain't necessarily so.
Kangi Ska
At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Mar 13 2010, 1:26am
Post #13 of 58
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When Tolkien worked out the plot!
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According to Of the Rings of Power, Elrond was a founder member of the Council. In The Hobbit, Bilbo has no idea just how powerful Elrond really is (or, alternatively, Tolkien had no idea how powerful Elrond was...)
I agree that this looks like "revisionism". But in medieval accounts, "revisionism" is the name of the game - or at least, it's standard practice, although no-one would have dreamt of giving it such a technical, disapproving name! If people only have partial knowledge, then they will report what they know according to what they understand. Let's say Bilbo didn't understand just who Elrond was (as indeed why should he? he also didn't know, until now, just who Gandalf was - and still doesn't have a full understanding, I'd say). So his report is a little vague and misleading. But after all, he was half-asleep, and doesn't have any background in the politics of Middle-earth yet.
I'm not saying Tolkien deliberately added these little inaccuracies for the sake of "authenticity", but I am suggesting that he probably didn't worry too much about them when they arose, because they don't detract from the authentic tone of the stories, providing you bear in mind where they come from (Bilbo's tale comes from Bilbo himself, as we are told several times in LotR).
In movieverse, Elrond surely has to be on the Council. Whether he's part of the action at Dol Guldur could go either way, based on what we know of Elrond from the LotR movies. We know he was a warrior back at the end of the First Age, when Sauron was first defeated. But we also know he's an isolationist at the start of the Ringquest. So when did he change? Is he already unwilling to take action in The Hobbit, or do the unintended consequences of the action in The Hobbit make him reluctant to act in LotR? I think the writers could take it either way.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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squire
Gondolin
Mar 13 2010, 1:56am
Post #14 of 58
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Of course the story was changed later
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The Encyclopedia of Arda? Why cite a secondary source when the primary source is so limited and so available. I've never read it, but I'm surprised the Encyclopedia doesn't qualify its statement to acknowledge the contradiction here between The Hobbit and Tolkien's later writings. Does EofA take the editorial approach that there is "one true legendarium" (aka: "canon") in order to satisfy those who cannot tolerate authorial complexity?
It is of course ridiculous to ignore the later texts if you are trying to follow Tolkien's own efforts to make his legendarium seamlessly consistent in his many years of post-LotR composition. In that context, eventually Elrond did become a member of the White Council; which itself became a council of High Elves rather than a magical conclave of many other "white" wizards. I have sadly acknowledged many times that these filmmakers seem bent on making, not The Hobbit, but The Lord of the Rings: the Prequel. Doesn't this mean that Elrond will don the white robes and diamond-studded fez of a member of the White Council, magical sword and all, so that he can rush up the siege ladders with Gandalf and Galadriel in a thrilling "reverse" of the Helm's Deep battle? Oh yeah, baby, I'm looking forward to that.
Not. I do think, given how the authorial voice works in The Hobbit, that it is quite plain at the end of that book (in the passage that Kangi Ska has provided us) that Gandalf really is "filling in" Elrond on events that the Master of Rivendell did not know about until then. It is quite the simplest reading, within the book itself. Tolkien's change of terms to the "White Council", of which Elrond was to become a member, was much later and gradual. It started in the beginning of the Hobbit sequel (The Fellowship of the Ring) and gradually transformed into a thousand-year organization of the Wise who wielded the Three Rings and the authority of the Valar on Middle-earth. Clearly, no aspect of any of this is present at the conclusion of The Hobbit: The Book.
Most Tolkien fans may now find it hard to read the original passage in The Hobbit, because it is so flatly weird and inconsistent compared to the later versions. Cognitive dissonance sets in. Some may reinterpret the contradiction by ascribing it to Bilbo's mistaken impression of an overheard conversation; some try to parse the setting so that Gandalf is conferring with Elrond rather than informing him. And as always with Tolkien, proof is not possible in any case!
But I remember reading The Hobbit before The Lord of the Rings. I remember distinctly understanding that Elrond was learning of the Necromancer's fall for the first time. (Don't say "Dol Guldur"! where's that?) And I remember later reading the appendicial nooks and crannies of The Lord of the Rings - and realizing that on this issue (as with so many others) Tolkien, in the throes of story-revision, had slipped us the old rubber peach.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Mar 13 2010, 2:33am
Post #15 of 58
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But I remember reading The Hobbit before The Lord of the Rings. I remember distinctly understanding that Elrond was learning of the Necromancer's fall for the first time.
You would certainly interpret the story that way if that's all you knew. But, even when he does have the option to go back and revise, Tolkien still likes misdirection, and making his readers rethink what they thought they knew. There's Sam's behaviour when he's found eavesdropping, for example - so obviously (on first reading) nothing but ignorance and foolish curiosity on Sam's part, yet actually covering up for a "conspiracy" that he was careful not to reveal. Yes, when Tolkien wrote the scene, he did think Sam was merely foolish (if I'm remembering the history of composition correctly). But he leaves the scene as it is, despite having plenty of opportunity to change it. Why? Because (I imagine) he knew that that's how stories work - "facts" are fluid, and very much depend on the viewpoint of the teller.
As for the passage in The Hobbit, it reads, as Kangi Ska says, as if the entire adventure is being told for the benefit of everyone in the household. No doubt (as with Elrond at his Council in LotR), "a part of [the] tale was known to some there, but the full tale to none". We simply don't know how that part of the story was told, and whether or not Elrond already knew it. Since Bilbo only wakes from his doze to "overhear" part of the exchange between Elrond and Gandalf, I think there's plenty of wiggle-room for a bit of "revisionism" there. Or for a "rubber peach", if that's what you prefer!
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Mar 13 2010, 2:49am
Post #16 of 58
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Sorry about the secondary source reference but I was using it to check my own memory. I also quick referenced the question in Robert Foster's Complete Guide to Middle-Earth. Then I went looking at primary information. Here again is the section in question. (and I would add that according to John D. Ratlif's "Return to Bag-End" ths text was largely present in the first draft.)
"Then the elves of the valley came out and greeted them and led them
across the water to the house of Elrond. There a warm welcome was made them,
and there were many eager ears that evening to hear the tale of their
adventures. Gandalf it was who spoke, for Bilbo was fallen quiet and drowsy.
Most of the tale he knew, for he had been in it, and had himself told much
of it to the wizard on their homeward way or in the house of Beorn; but
every now and again he would open one eye, and listen, when a part of the
story which he did not yet know came in. It was in this way that he learned
where Gandalf had been to; for he overheard the words of the wizard to
Elrond. It appeared that Gandalf had been to a great council of the white
wizards, masters of lore and good magic; and that they had at last driven
the Necromancer from his dark hold in the south of Mirkwood." The Hobbit
"A warm welcome was made there in the house of Elrond. and [added:<there> were many]
eager ears to hear the tale of their adventures. Gandalf it was who spoke, for Bilbo was fallen
quiet and drowsy; but every now and again he would open an eye and listen when some part
of the story he did not know came in.
Written following the next paragraph but marked for insertion, here following 'quiet and drowsy':
Most of the tale he knew. for he had told much of it to the wizard himself on the homeward way. But
So he learned that Gandalf had been to a great council of good wizards; and that the Necromancer
had been driven from his hold in the south of Mirkwood, and had fled to other lands." Return to Bag-End
I did note the Councils name change but I still can not see how this denies Elrond membership.
I think FarFromHome summarizes what I feel is the correct interpretation in the post titled
" When Tolkien worked out the plot!"
Kangi Ska
Kangi Ska
At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 14 2010, 5:53am
Post #17 of 58
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"In movieverse, Elrond surely has to be on the Council".
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Is there some reason the movies need to be more consistent with one another than the books are?
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Mar 14 2010, 8:37am
Post #18 of 58
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that makes me think this, it's more a question of how characters are normally deployed in drama. Elrond is depicted in LotR as central to the political and strategic action in the story of the Ring. We first see his leadership role in the defeat of Sauron at the end of the First Age, followed by repeated flashbacks of his urgings to Isildur to destroy the Ring. Then during the action of LotR itself, he hosts his own Council, and engages in private strategic discussions with Gandalf and later (telepathically) with Galadriel. He's a pivotal character in that aspect of the drama, so I think it would undercut the dramatic weight of the character not to have him involved with the discussions of the White Council as well.
I don't mean that a storyline couldn't be written to explain his absence, if there was some dramatic purpose to be served by doing so, but all things being equal, it would surely make sense to have The Hobbit show him involved in the political and advisory roles he already had in the First Age episodes and will later have in LotR.
In fact, though, I suppose I do think the movies may need to be more consistent than the books. The books use ambiguity, usually dependent on the fact that we are seeing the story through the eyes of the characters, to allow considerable room for reinterpretation of events. Those "seeming" moments, as Weaver calls them, are very powerful in a book but next-to-impossible in a movie where we the audience see everything happen with our own eyes.
The movies are able to introduce ambiguity in characters' motivations, since those are internalized and open to interpretation. But there's no room to introduce the kind of uncertainty that Tolkien uses, a typical example being when we are told that Bilbo "overheard the words of the wizard to Elrond. It appeared that Gandalf had been to a great council of the white wizards..." Yes, it seems that we have been given some information - but maybe it's just another "seeming" moment. Bilbo may not have got the full story straight at all.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Finrod
Nargothrond
Mar 14 2010, 2:57pm
Post #19 of 58
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I agree with everything you wrote, except I’m sure you meant Second Age in all the places you wrote First. The opening sequences in Jackson’s Fellowship of the Ring film were from the Second Age.‘I remember well the splendour of their banners,’ he said. ‘It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled. And yet not so many, nor so fair, as when Thangorodrim was broken, and the Elves deemed that evil was ended for ever, and it was not so.’
‘You remember?’ said Frodo, speaking his thought aloud in his astonishment. ‘But I thought,’ he stammered as Elrond turned towards him, ‘I thought the fall of Gil‐galad was a long age ago.’
‘So it was indeed,’ answered Elrond gravely. ‘But my memory reaches back even to the Elder Days. Eärendil was my sire, who was born in Gondolin before its fall; and my mother was Elwing, daughter of Dior, son of Lúthien of Doriath. I have seen three ages in the West of the world, and many defeats, and many fruitless victories.’ That was the First Age: in Elder Days when the very Powers Themselves marched upon the Enemy, the War of Wrath when the Vanyar returned to Middle Earth and Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Black, whose fall broke the towers of Thangorodrim; when Eönwë took back the last two Silmarils from the Iron Crown, Beleriand itself was destroyed, and the Valar cast Morgoth out into the Void.
Elrond was there.
But Elendil and Isildur and Anarion, the long Battle of Dagorlad and ensuing Siege of Barad‐dûr, Sauron and the Last Alliance—those were the Second Age.
Elrond was there, too.
As the fine captains of the West arrayed against the Enemy at the close of Third Age were a dim, fading echo of the mighty captains of the West who had assembled against the Dark Power a long age before, those of the Second Age were themselves only a dim, fading echo of the magnificent captains of the West who broke Thangorodrim an age before that.
…all eyes looked upon the ring; for he held it now aloft, and the green jewels gleamed there that the Noldor had devised in Valinor. For this ring was like to twin serpents, whose eyes were emeralds, and their heads met beneath a crown of golden flowers, that the one upheld and the other devoured; that was the badge of Finarfin and his house.The Silmarillion, pp 150-151 while Felagund laughs beneath the treesin Valinor and comes no more
to this grey world of tears and war.The Lays of Beleriand, p 311
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Mar 14 2010, 3:43pm
Post #20 of 58
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I have a mental block about the First and Second Ages, for some reason - I'm always mixing them up....
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 14 2010, 4:46pm
Post #21 of 58
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It sounds like you expect the filmmakers to try and make Elrond's character in The Hobbit consistent with his character in LOTR by showing in the new films how he went from his attitude in the Last Alliance to his attitude towards Aragorn. I say, adapt The Hobbit as closely as possible without regard to LOTR, and let the viewer sort out the differences, as readers have been doing with the books for decades.
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Finrod
Nargothrond
Mar 14 2010, 7:25pm
Post #22 of 58
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Stray not so far from the published text
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Doesn't this mean that Elrond will don the white robes and diamond-studded fez of a member of the White Council, magical sword and all, so that he can rush up the siege ladders with Gandalf and Galadriel in a thrilling "reverse" of the Helm's Deep battle? Oh yeah, baby, I'm looking forward to that.
Not.
Why no, of course not. That would be inconsistent with the published text—although not, alas, with Jackson’s demonstrated (ahem) style.
After the fall of Barad‐dûr, it is Celeborn not Galadriel who leads the hosts of Lórien against Dol Guldur. Her power is not in main force; rather, Galadriel plays the rôle that Lúthien played ages earlier: Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself. Though grievous harm was done to the fair wood on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lórien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed. So why should it be any different in these Hobbit movies?
Certainly, Galadriel might from some safe distance use her own power and those skills which she like her cousin Lúthien learned from Melian, Doriath’s immortal fairy queen. During The Hobbit, Galadriel would also have had the not inconsiderable power of Nenya the Ring of Adamant to aid her, although she presumably neither had nor needed such assistance in the final assault following the War of the Ring quoted above.
But unquestionably it should be Celeborn who leads the war band. I suppose that Jackson shall add Haldir as his lieutenant.
I should not be entirely astonished if Jackson were to film this sequence as some form of coda for the inevitable extended edition of the DVD.
There is also the minor matter that during The Hobbit, but for the added power of Narya the Great, Gandalf the Grey should not be portrayed as greater in might or holiness during the then‐assault on Dol Guldur than Saruman the White, only greater in wisdom, foresight, and compassion. Well, and fireworks.
As for the White Council, the Wise always consisted of the Istari and the chief Eldar. There is no unsubtle transformation as you would allege. Kindly consult and review the Tale of Years in Appendix B for all mentions of Dol Guldur.
Why so dripping with embittered and cynical parody? Cui bono?
…all eyes looked upon the ring; for he held it now aloft, and the green jewels gleamed there that the Noldor had devised in Valinor. For this ring was like to twin serpents, whose eyes were emeralds, and their heads met beneath a crown of golden flowers, that the one upheld and the other devoured; that was the badge of Finarfin and his house.The Silmarillion, pp 150-151 while Felagund laughs beneath the treesin Valinor and comes no more
to this grey world of tears and war.The Lays of Beleriand, p 311
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Finrod
Nargothrond
Mar 14 2010, 7:33pm
Post #23 of 58
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The self-defeatism of maudlin nostalgia
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I say, adapt The Hobbit as closely as possible without regard to LOTR, and let the viewer sort out the differences, as readers have been doing with the books for decades.
That is not what the filmmakers are doing.
All this maudlin dwelling in wistful nostalgia for what might have been but shall not be can bring you nor others any joy.
So why do it, hm?
…all eyes looked upon the ring; for he held it now aloft, and the green jewels gleamed there that the Noldor had devised in Valinor. For this ring was like to twin serpents, whose eyes were emeralds, and their heads met beneath a crown of golden flowers, that the one upheld and the other devoured; that was the badge of Finarfin and his house.The Silmarillion, pp 150-151 while Felagund laughs beneath the treesin Valinor and comes no more
to this grey world of tears and war.The Lays of Beleriand, p 311
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Mar 14 2010, 8:05pm
Post #24 of 58
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I would remind you that the Hobbitt I & II aren't Peter Jackson films
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I am certain that Guillermo del Toro will do some things a bit differently than Peter.
Kangi Ska
At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Mar 14 2010, 8:15pm
Post #25 of 58
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Perhaps the Triumph of Cinicism is better.
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How is it that you know what Guillermo del Toro is going to do with these two films. If you have inside information that gives you special insight please share it with us. I personally would like to know. I am sure there are many others that would like to know as well.
Kangi Ska
At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.
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