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aranelthehobbit22
Mithlond
Feb 18 2010, 1:18am
Post #1 of 36
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Why not on Eagles?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU
I know everyone has had this argument with some one, and right now I'm having another one.
Obviously they could NOT have used the Eagles, but no matter what information I give my opponent refuses to believe me.
I thought that somewhere I had read Tolkien discussing this topic, why it would not have worked.
I have looked and read everything under "Eagles" in the Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien book but have not found anything that will help me.
Anyone else no where I might look for him talking about this? Or maybe I only thought I read him saying that, maybe or maybe not.
Help?
'I'm glad you are here with me. Here at the end of all things, Sam.'
Walk as the Elves do: lightly upon the snow
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Eldy
Dor-Lomin
Feb 18 2010, 2:02am
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The purpose of the Fellowship of the Ring, and the linchpin of the entire strategy decided on in Rivendell, was to destroy the Ring in a mission of secrecy.
Taking the Eagles might have worked, I will grant that. It may have been a successful mission and allowed the Ring to be destroyed earlier than it "actually" was. But it would have sacrificed secrecy and drastically increased the changes of the Ring being captured. When you have the fate of the world hanging in the balance, you don't want to take any unnecessary chances.
Eagles are, clearly, far more noticeable than Hobbits or other travelers on foot. We don't know how exactly Gandalf planned to get into Mordor (presumably it didn't involve the breaking of the Fellowship), but we can surmise that they would have gone through a mountain pass or valley some where. We know of only three (the Morannon, Cirith Ungol, and the Nameless Pass), but it stands to reason that there were more. Not ideal ones perhaps (though Cirith Ungol itself was not ideal), but mountains are not impenetrable and continuous walls of rock.
An Eagle flying through the air would be easily noticed by Orcs or other watchers (remember the sinister and sorcerous ones at the Tower of Cirith Ungol). Travelers on foot could sneak around much more easily, scout ahead (especially with a ranger), and slip by unnoticed (remember how quiet hobbits are?). The Eagles might have been able to slip by unnoticed, but it would have been far more likely that they would have been caught. Once inside Mordor (if they even make it), there is still the chance that the Eagles could be caught. There's also the threat of the Nazgul's fell beasts, and archers.
The "classic" Eagle plan, as outlined in the YouTube video, would not work for a couple of reasons. First, the Ring could not just be dropped into the caldera; it had to be taken into the Crack of Doom itself. As the name implies, this is an enclosed space inside the mountain. An Eagles likely would not fit inside, so it would have to bring have a rider. This would limit the height to which it could fly (the rider would need to breathe) and its agility during a fight. Yet more possibilities for failure. Second, a giant Eagle landing on the slope of Mount Doom would be quickly evident to any troops stationed there. A small group of people on foot might be able to sneak up unnoticed. Again, the Eagle plan might work, but it increases the chances of being caught.
The Council of Elrond did not know exactly what to expect in Mordor, so they had to plan for the worst (i.e., assume the worst case scenario for each possible solution). The Fellowship plan was itself a very long shot and indeed, it failed in its original conception, though obviously a fragment of the Fellowship persisted; but the Eagle plan raises such a host of potential issues and problems that I think it is quite understandable why the Council opted to send people on foot. As I mentioned at the beginning, their emphasis was on secrecy.
(This of course assumes that the Eagles, were they asked, would consent to fly the Ringbearer/Fellowship to Mount Doom.)
And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our soul
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How everything still turns to gold
And if you listen very hard
The truth will come to you at last
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll
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aranelthehobbit22
Mithlond
Feb 18 2010, 2:17am
Post #3 of 36
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Thank you! Sounds like what I was saying!
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Yeah these were the same points I was trying to make to my ununderstanding friend.
Thank you so much for all of your imput, all of these points are important.
I was hoping for a reference from Tolkien if possible, just because if he said it it would just be law, and no doubts would be there.
Thanks again for your pointers and help in this debate.
~aranel
'I'm glad you are here with me. Here at the end of all things, Sam.'
Walk as the Elves do: lightly upon the snow
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Feb 18 2010, 2:20am
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I'd heard some of those points before, but not all. My short answer was going to be that they're not "Tame eagles" (kind of like Aslan is not a tame lion); they're messengers of Manwe, who may or may not think it appropriate to send them.
Yulequest
Yuletide is come again,
Long is the night.
If dark afrighteth thee,
Seek ye the light.
If light do weary thee,
Night bringeth rest.
Seeking for joy shall be
Thy Yuletide quest.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Silverlode
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Feb 18 2010, 3:32am
Post #5 of 36
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including what Eldorion said. If you want citations, I've included evidence from the text.
Reason 1: There are no free rides in Middle-earth
The Eagles are often referred to as a sort of deus ex machina, which swoop down out of nowhere to solve problems. I think that instead, they represent "grace", and their appearance is always a moment of Eucatastrophe, the sudden unexpected turn to good. In Tolkien's philosophy, grace is not given to prevent someone from having to face something difficult or to avoid danger, it only appears when one has exhausted all options in the struggle to do right and is exhibiting "courage without hope". This doesn't mean much to the viewer or reader who is dedicated (or conditioned) to the path of least resistance and probably won't convince whoever you're arguing with, but I believe it meant a lot to Tolkien.
Reason 2: The Eagles have no rings of power. The Eagles need no rings of power.
The quest to destroy the One Ring is not their problem, and definitely not their responsibility. Those involved in the question of what to do with the Ring are those involved with the Three, Seven, and Nine. The Hobbits come in because they found the One. It's up to these peoples to deal with the problem. What do Eagles know/care about rings?
Reason 3: It's all who you know.
The Eagles are not humanoid, they're not a society which interacts much if at all with the "Free Peoples", and they don't take much interest in their doings. In this way, they're more like the Ents. They're generally on the side of Good and they are enemies of Orcs and Wargs, but they're not much interested in things that don't directly affect them.
In fact, the Eagles appear for only 2 reasons, either in The Hobbit or LOTR:
1) At the request of a wizard, specifically Gandalf - "The wizard and the eagle-lord appeared to know one another slightly, and even to be on friendly terms. As a matter of fact Gandalf...had once rendered a service to the eagles and healed their lord from an arrow-wound." - Out of the Frying-Pan Into the Fire, The Hobbit
2) For battle against their particular enemies - "They did not love goblins, or fear them. When they took any notice of them at all (which was seldom, for they did not eat such creatures), they swooped on them...and stopped whatever wickedness they were doing." - Out of the Frying Pan Into the Fire, The Hobbit
A look at the appearances of the Eagles in both The Hobbit and LOTR confirms this:
The Hobbit #1
The Lord of the Eagles comes to find out what the wolves and goblins are doing in his territory and rescues Gandalf from the top of his burning tree. Gandalf speaks to him and gets him to rescue the rest of his party. It is at Gandalf's request that they are then set down at the Carrock.
But the Eagles would not take them anywhere near where men lived. "They would shoot at us with their great bows of yew", he said, "for they would think that we were after their sheep. ...No! we are glad to cheat the goblins of their sport, and glad to repay our thanks to you, but we will not risk ourselves for dwarves in the southward plains."
#2
The Eagles appear in battle to defeat the goblins. "The Eagles had long had suspicion of the goblins' mustering; from their watchfulness the movements in the mountains could not be altogether hid. So they too had gathered in great numbers....and at length smelling battle from afar they had come...."
LOTR #1:
In FOTR the book, Gandalf was rescued from Orthanc because he asked Radagast to request all birds and beasts to gather news and bring it to him there before Saruman's treason was known. In the movie, Gandalf sent the rescue request himself via moth courier.
#2:
Galadriel asked Gwaihir to look for Gandalf after his battle with the Balrog and bring him to Lorien. He found him on Zirakzigil after his spirit was "sent back".
#3:
Battle at the Black Gate - Eagles appear for battle and attack the Nazgul (the only flying enemies) at the moment the Ring is about to be destroyed. The Nazgul flee, and Gandalf calls the Eagles down and makes special request for Eagles to rescue Frodo and Sam from Mount Doom (note: orc archers are no longer a factor at this point)
Now some might ask why Gandalf didn't ask the Eagles to take the Ring. See Reasons #1and 2; Gandalf was sent to stir up the Free Peoples against Sauron, not to do everything for them or to take over their responsibilities. He participates in the Council of Elrond and he stands by the Ringbearer, and he tries to keep them from making stupid decisions, but he doesn't take over anyone's responsibility. Why would he ask the Eagles to take it over? And I'm not sure even healing the Lord of the Eagles from a wound is enough obligation to ask for that.
Besides, it wasn't as practical as some like to think. If the Eagles (in The Hobbit) thought the bows of men defending flocks of sheep made it too dangerous to fly over the southern plains, what about the thousands of Orc archers stationed all over the plains of Gorgoroth? And they'd have to fly over the closely watched passes of the Ephel Duath to get there. And there were flying Nazgul on top of that. And we haven't even mentioned the Eye watching. You think Sauron is going to miss a huge Eagle entering his territory and heading for the big fiery mountain? There is no such thing as an airborne sneak attack into anyplace as heavily guarded as Mordor. It's more like high profile suicide.
Yep, I think that about covers it... 
Silverlode
"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you." -On Fairy Stories
(This post was edited by Silverlode on Feb 18 2010, 3:34am)
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Eldy
Dor-Lomin
Feb 18 2010, 5:00am
Post #6 of 36
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I don't know if Tolkien ever commented on this matter or was asked this question though, so I'm afraid I can't help you there.
And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our soul
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How everything still turns to gold
And if you listen very hard
The truth will come to you at last
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll
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Eldy
Dor-Lomin
Feb 18 2010, 5:01am
Post #7 of 36
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And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our soul
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How everything still turns to gold
And if you listen very hard
The truth will come to you at last
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll
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Eldy
Dor-Lomin
Feb 18 2010, 5:06am
Post #8 of 36
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I was in a bit of a hurry and away from my book, so thank you for saying what I could not. As an observation in your quote under "The Hobbit #1", this establishes the Eagles fear of mere herdsmen with bowa. One can imagine they would be even more wary of Orc-troops.
And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our soul
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How everything still turns to gold
And if you listen very hard
The truth will come to you at last
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
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Feb 18 2010, 6:23am
Post #9 of 36
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I may just save the link to your post to make it easier to answer future questions on this topic (as I'm sure it'll come up again and again). 
I also wonder if the Song of Eru comes into this. He planned everything that would happen, including Theoden's struggle towards redemption, Saruman's treachery and overthrow, Gondor's King returning, the Ents stirring once more, and the Hobbits realising there is more to the world than just them in the Shire. None of that would have happened if the Ring hadn't been carried by a Hobbit (aided by companions) to Mordor over several months.
IMO, the destruction of the One Ring was only one outcome that Eru had intended for Middle-earth, which would not have happened if the Ring had been carried even near to Mordor by Eagle Air.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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RosieLass
Doriath
Feb 18 2010, 7:55am
Post #10 of 36
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The book would have been eight pages long, and we'd never have heard about it. 
"Rabbit's clever," said Pooh thoughtfully.
"Yes," said Piglet, "Rabbit's clever."
"And he has Brains."
"Yes," said Piglet, "Rabbit has Brains."
There was a long silence.
"I suppose," said Pooh, "that that's why he never understands anything."
- A. A. Milne
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Feb 18 2010, 9:28am
Post #11 of 36
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Remember that anyone that had the Ring would have been tempted to use it, the more so giving their greater power and the more the closer the ring-bearer was to Mordor. Given that the king of the Eagles was a powerful bird, would he not have been tempted by the Ring as well? Gandalf didn't even trust himself as a Ring-bearer!
Scenario:
Stiring music, ride of the Valkaryies:
'Ok, chaps, choc away, wacko over the mountains of Mordor we go. Remember our mission, to drop the Ring into Mount Doom. Oops, butterwings, nearly dropped the blasted thing. Right here we are, oh no, wrong mountain, come along fellows, bazzo! Here we properly are. Now all we need to do is to drop the Ring into the mountain, er drop the Ring into the mountain, er, er, er....... Hold on, I've a better, lets claim this Ring for our own and become Lords of the Sky and the ground, as much mutton as anyone can eat, who's up for that lads?'
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Feb 18 2010, 9:55am
Post #12 of 36
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And that... as they say... is that. BRILLIANT!!!! :D
 
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
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dernwyn
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Feb 18 2010, 12:34pm
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Yep - as the Ring enlarges and slips "accidentally" onto a talon...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Feb 18 2010, 12:49pm
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Thank you, Silverlode and Eldorion!
I also took a glance through the Letters, and came up with only this, from Letter #210, on the proposed film: "The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine'...At the bottom of the page, the Eagles are again introduced. I feel this to be a wholly unacceptable tampering with the tale. 'Nine Walkers' and they immediately go up in the air! The intrusion achieves nothing but incredibility, and the staling of the device of the Eagles when at last they are really needed."
Not much there except for distaste of the idea! You two have well expressed the major arguments.
I think there's more about the Eagles in HoME; I'll check through that later and report any findings.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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silneldor
Gondolin
Feb 18 2010, 4:39pm
Post #16 of 36
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This thread was great. Thank you everyone:)
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With all the wonderful thought here i believe also that Gandalf had the belief that Gollum had some part to play (perhaps significant i belief he thought, for good or bad) and i feel he went with these 'feelings' too along with all the other thoughts/considerations.
''Sam put his ragged orc-cloak under his master's head, and covered them both with the grey robe of Lorien; and as he did so his thoughts went out to that fair land, and to the Elves, and he hoped that the cloth woven by their hands might have some virtue to keep them hidden beyond all hope in this wilderness of fear...But their luck held, and for the rest of that day they met no living or moving thing; and when night fell they vanished into the darkess of Mordor.'' - - -rotk, chapter III
May the grace of Manwë let us soar with eagle's wings!
In the air, among the clouds in the sky
Here is where the birds of Manwe fly
Looking at the land, and the water that flows
The true beauty of earth shows
With the stars of Varda lighting my way
In all the realms this is where I stay
In the realm of Manwë Súlimo
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Feb 18 2010, 4:40pm
Post #17 of 36
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Eagles are, clearly, far more noticeable than Hobbits or other travelers on foot. We don't know how exactly Gandalf planned to get into Mordor (presumably it didn't involve the breaking of the Fellowship), but we can surmise that they would have gone through a mountain pass or valley some where. We know of only three (the Morannon, Cirith Ungol, and the Nameless Pass), but it stands to reason that there were more. Not ideal ones perhaps (though Cirith Ungol itself was not ideal), but mountains are not impenetrable and continuous walls of rock. An Eagle flying through the air would be easily noticed by Orcs or other watchers (remember the sinister and sorcerous ones at the Tower of Cirith Ungol). Travelers on foot could sneak around much more easily, scout ahead (especially with a ranger), and slip by unnoticed (remember how quiet hobbits are?). The Eagles might have been able to slip by unnoticed, but it would have been far more likely that they would have been caught. Once inside Mordor (if they even make it), there is still the chance that the Eagles could be caught. There's also the threat of the Nazgul's fell beasts, and archers. The "classic" Eagle plan, as outlined in the YouTube video, would not work for a couple of reasons. First, the Ring could not just be dropped into the caldera; it had to be taken into the Crack of Doom itself. As the name implies, this is an enclosed space inside the mountain. An Eagles likely would not fit inside, so it would have to bring have a rider. This would limit the height to which it could fly (the rider would need to breathe) and its agility during a fight. Yet more possibilities for failure. Second, a giant Eagle landing on the slope of Mount Doom would be quickly evident to any troops stationed there. A small group of people on foot might be able to sneak up unnoticed. Again, the Eagle plan might work, but it increases the chances of being caught. The Council of Elrond did not know exactly what to expect in Mordor, so they had to plan for the worst (i.e., assume the worst case scenario for each possible solution). The Fellowship plan was itself a very long shot and indeed, it failed in its original conception, though obviously a fragment of the Fellowship persisted; but the Eagle plan raises such a host of potential issues and problems that I think it is quite understandable why the Council opted to send people on foot. As I mentioned at the beginning, their emphasis was on secrecy. (This of course assumes that the Eagles, were they asked, would consent to fly the Ringbearer/Fellowship to Mount Doom.) ...........................Well, there are a number of points which I want to bring up here..................... What in the world is 'The Nameless Pass' into Mordor? I must've missed that the 30+ times I've read TLOR........ There were no 'Watchers' anywhere near Mount Doom, only at Cirith Ungol. As Frodo and Sam cover every inch of Mordor that the eagles would have without finding any other 'Watchers' of that sort, we can assume that there were none.................. Why couldn't the Ring be dropped into the top of the volcano? Where in the world do you think the lava from the 'cracks of doom' errupted up into the air from? Obviously there was a cone shaped hole straight through to the core. Tolkien says so in Sam's first description of the sight of the mountain. The 'Crack of Doom' was simply a hole Sauron bore into the side of a very regular volcano.................................. How is it possible that travelers on foot who took TEN days could 'sneak around more easily' tthan eagles that took only minutes to get to Mount Doom from the Black Gate? Makes no sense..................... The original plan of the Fellowship WAS to break up: Boromir and Aragorn going to 'the wars of Minas Tirith' and Legolas and Gimli not promising to go further than the 'passes of the mountains' which led back to their homes in Rhovanion.............................. The only problem I see with 'The Old Eagle Theory' is that how does one get in touch with an eagle or eagles to set up & accomplish the plan? Set up a sign as close to the eagles 'inacsessable eyries' as possible saying 'Eagles Wanted - Excitement! Danger! Great Pay! Opportunities For Advancement. Contact Council of Elrond @ Rivendel.com.'?  .................................. Remember, eagles stayed away from people as much as possible - even Gwaihir didn't want to carry Gandalf far when rescuing him from Orthanc. If his buddy Radaghast hadn't told him to drop by, Gandalf would still be on top of Saruman's tower right now.
The Ultimate Tolkien Trivia Quiz: http://www.proprofs.com/quiz-school/story.php?title=so-you-want-to-be-tolkien-geek
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Eldy
Dor-Lomin
Feb 18 2010, 6:57pm
Post #18 of 36
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Here we go, point-by-point:
What in the world is 'The Nameless Pass' into Mordor? I must've missed that the 30+ times I've read TLOR
Must have. TTT, The Stairs of Cirith Ungol: "Here the huge cliff-face sloped backwards, and the path like a snake wound to and fro across it. At one point point it crawled sideways right to the edge of the dark chasm, and Frodo glancing down saw below him as a vast deep pit the great ravine at the head of the Morgul Valley. Down in its depths glimmered like a glow-worm thread the wraith-road from the dead-city to the Nameless Pass. He turned hastily away." (There's a handy fan-made map of the area here.)
There were no 'Watchers' anywhere near Mount Doom, only at Cirith Ungol. As Frodo and Sam cover every inch of Mordor that the eagles would have without finding any other 'Watchers' of that sort, we can assume that there were none
Frodo and Sam do not cover "every inch" of anything. We don't know if the Eagles would have taken the exact same track as Frodo and Sam, or what existed in Mordor aside from the passage that F&S took. There might not have been other watchers of the sort at Cirith Ungol, but we know that the "technology" exists, so it is a potential danger. You may also have noticed in my post that I mentioned orcs before any other potential watchers.
Why couldn't the Ring be dropped into the top of the volcano? Where in the world do you think the lava from the 'cracks of doom' errupted up into the air from? Obviously there was a cone shaped hole straight through to the core. Tolkien says so in Sam's first description of the sight of the mountain. The 'Crack of Doom' was simply a hole Sauron bore into the side of a very regular volcano
The Crack of Doom (and in fact the Sammath Naur in general) was hardly ordinary. It was "the heart of the realm of Sauron and the forges of his ancient might, greatest in MIddle-earth; all other were here subdued" (all quotes from ROTK, Mount Doom). It was to the Crack itself, not merely the caldera, that the Ring needed to be taken in order to be destroyed. Maybe dropping the Ring into the caldera would work, but it's a big gamble when you have the fates of untold numbers of people (born and unborn) hanging in the balance.
How is it possible that travelers on foot who took TEN days could 'sneak around more easily' tthan eagles that took only minutes to get to Mount Doom from the Black Gate? Makes no sense
Your source for this being a "matter of minutes"? Additionally, do you really think the Eagles were sneaking as they flew in plain view over Mordor? Had the Ring not been destroyed they would have been in great danger. This was the point of my previous post; the Eagles were quick, but they weren't stealthy.
The original plan of the Fellowship WAS to break up: Boromir and Aragorn going to 'the wars of Minas Tirith' and Legolas and Gimli not promising to go further than the 'passes of the mountains' which led back to their homes in Rhovanion
Fair enough, though it's rather irrelevant to my main point. Would you mind giving a quote though?
The only problem I see with 'The Old Eagle Theory' is that how does one get in touch with an eagle or eagles to set up & accomplish the plan? Set up a sign as close to the eagles 'inacsessable eyries' as possible saying 'Eagles Wanted - Excitement! Danger! Great Pay! Opportunities For Advancement. Contact Council of Elrond @ Rivendel.com.'?
Can you see why it is less stealthy to fly through the air where anyone in the vicinity looking up could see you (and potentially shoot at you) than to travel in disguise by foot?
Remember, eagles stayed away from people as much as possible - even Gwaihir didn't want to carry Gandalf far when rescuing him from Orthanc. If his buddy Radaghast hadn't told him to drop by, Gandalf would still be on top of Saruman's tower right now.
Yes, and this is a reason why the Eagles would not be as good as some people make them out to be. They were afraid to go too close to people. Going near people would be inevitable in Mordor though, placing the Eagles in danger. Since they had an aversion to going near people though, they might not even consent to help.
And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our soul
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How everything still turns to gold
And if you listen very hard
The truth will come to you at last
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll
(This post was edited by Eldorion on Feb 18 2010, 6:59pm)
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Eldy
Dor-Lomin
Feb 18 2010, 7:56pm
Post #19 of 36
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I apologize for slaughetering the ROTK quote
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It should read:
It was "the heart of the realm of Sauron and the forges of his ancient might, greatest in Middle-earth; all other powers were here subdued"
And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our soul
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How everything still turns to gold
And if you listen very hard
The truth will come to you at last
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Feb 18 2010, 8:03pm
Post #20 of 36
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'Your small fire, of course, would not melt even ordinary gold. This Ring has already passed through it unscathed, and even unheated. But there is no smith's forge in this Shire that could change it at all. Not even the anvils and furnaces of the Dwarves could do that. It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself. There is only one way: to find the Cracks of Doom in the depths of Orodruin, the Fire-mountain, and cast the Ring in there, if you really wish to destroy it, to put it beyond the grasp of the Enemy for ever.'
-The Shadow of the Past
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I met a balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.
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Taliesin's Muse
Registered User
Feb 18 2010, 8:57pm
Post #21 of 36
(794 views)
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have come close to what I recall being the explanation. Whether this was Tolkien's explanation or whose, I don't recall.
The Valar provided sufficient help to Middle-earth to give them a fighting chance of defeating whatever they were up against at the time. When they were up against Morgoth, a Vala himself, Maiar spirits would have been not so much use. When Morgoth was finally cast out it was the Valar that did it, but after much fighting/heroism/all the rest of it on the part of men and elves first.
When the five wizards were sent to Middle-earth to assist in defeating Sauron, they were sent in the guise of men - powerful men, but just men nonetheless. They were to limit their powers - not be some mighty spirit rescuers, taking everything out of the hands of the people of Middle-earth, but to be advisers. They were there to even the balance, but still to give men, elves and dwarves the main part of the fight.
The eagles would have come under the "way too easy" category. There was no way for Middle-earth to rescue itself if the eagles simply dropped the ring in the fire.
Now I'll go see if I can work out where I found this, and who said it :-)
http://taliesinsmuse.deviantart.com/
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Eldy
Dor-Lomin
Feb 18 2010, 8:58pm
Post #22 of 36
(785 views)
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I remembered a quote along those lines, but not where it was, so I didn't bother mentioning it. Thank you!
And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our soul
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How everything still turns to gold
And if you listen very hard
The truth will come to you at last
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll
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Eldy
Dor-Lomin
Feb 18 2010, 9:01pm
Post #23 of 36
(775 views)
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"The Valar provided sufficient help to Middle-earth to give them a fighting chance of defeating whatever they were up against at the time. "
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Not really. Counting only Morgoth and Sauron, the Valar ignored the Morgoth problem for much of its existence and almost allowed the Elven kingdoms to be completely destroyed (most of them were anyway). Then they turned around and sent the Host of the West to do the job almost entirely on its own. The "hands off" approach only really happened when countering Sauron.
I'm not sure the restrictions on the Istari would apply to the Eagles though. I believe the Istari were given their limitations alone, and the Eagles might not have received a separate set. It's certainly possible, though.
And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our soul
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How everything still turns to gold
And if you listen very hard
The truth will come to you at last
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll
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Taliesin's Muse
Registered User
Feb 18 2010, 9:12pm
Post #24 of 36
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I started my post getting involved with writing about Morgoth, then decided to keep it simple, because it's pre-coffee time here.
Morgoth was different- too powerful for the children of Iluvatar to ever deal with on their own. Where I was going was that they had to *try* to deal with it - and it took Iluvatar's epic quest and request to get the Valar to step in. I was careless in the way I put that. It wasn't in that case providing assistance to men and elves to get it done, because up against Morgoth, you pretty much needed the full might of the Valar. But men and elves and dwarves had to do something first - there could never just be an easy ride, because in that case there's no growth, there's no free will and independence.
Also, the Valar were still sulking
http://taliesinsmuse.deviantart.com/
http://www.etsy.com/shop/taliesinsmuse
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Annael
Elvenhome
Feb 18 2010, 11:19pm
Post #25 of 36
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one last point that no one has made
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The Eagles are Maiar like Sauron and Gandalf. Gandalf refused to take the Ring because he would have been corrupted by it. Any Eagle who took the Ring likewise may have been corrupted too and simply flown off with it.
The way we imagine our lives is the way we are going to go on living our lives.
- James Hillman, Healing Fiction
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
(This post was edited by Annael on Feb 18 2010, 11:19pm)
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