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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Feb 14 2010, 9:11am
Post #1 of 10
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Did Saruman die?
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At the end of the Scouring of the Shire, Saruman has his throat cut by Worntongue. Fair enough, but would this be enough to kill a powerful Maia like Saruman? When one considers that Gandalf survived been plunged thousands of feet with a Balrog on top of him and that Sauron body was destroyed many times and he yet survived would Saruman really have been destroyed simply having had some dork cutting his throat? Or did his spirit re-form somewhere?
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Feb 14 2010, 10:55am
Post #2 of 10
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'Out of the West came a cold wind..." The Gods eliminated him.
Kangi Ska
At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.
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RosieLass
Valinor
Feb 15 2010, 8:06pm
Post #3 of 10
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Technically, Gandalf also "died."
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But he was sent back and given a new body.
(I think that's the correct interpretation, isn't it?)
"Rabbit's clever," said Pooh thoughtfully.
"Yes," said Piglet, "Rabbit's clever."
"And he has Brains."
"Yes," said Piglet, "Rabbit has Brains."
There was a long silence.
"I suppose," said Pooh, "that that's why he never understands anything."
- A. A. Milne
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Tolkien Forever
Gondor
Feb 15 2010, 10:52pm
Post #4 of 10
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Dead as a doornail.
The Ultimate Tolkien Trivia Quiz: http://www.proprofs.com/quiz-school/story.php?title=so-you-want-to-be-tolkien-geek
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Feb 15 2010, 11:02pm
Post #5 of 10
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Spirits cannot be destroyed within the universe --Tolkien mentioned this "rule" in a letter-- though they can be broken and scattered so as to be too weak to rebuild within time.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Silmarillion in the Reading Room, Aug. 9 - Mar 7. Please join the conversation!
This week: "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age".
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Feb 15 2010, 11:11pm
Post #6 of 10
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"Spirits cannot be destroyed within the universe --Tolkien mentioned this "rule" in a letter-- though they can be broken and scattered so as to be too weak to rebuild within time."
Saruman was broken & scattered: Gandalf's Mair Spirit Remained in tact and was given a new souped up White Wizard body makeover.
Kangi Ska
At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.
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almas_sparks
Rohan
Feb 16 2010, 2:08am
Post #7 of 10
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no, they remain sentient and sulky
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but are invisible or like shadows and cannot do anything because they cannot take physical form. They just wander around and sulk a lot.
I hope anyone who knows Tolkien better can help me with the following. if my memory is correct, Tolkien said that Ainu spirits like Melkor,Sauron and Saruman would be able to restore their glorious selves if they trully repented but that they were way past that point so melkor remained scary looking while locked up in the void and S&S are sentient and sulky shadows/ghosts. So they are out there but since they can`t do harm or otherwise, nobody knows they are here. 
(This post was edited by almas_sparks on Feb 16 2010, 2:08am)
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RosieLass
Valinor
Feb 17 2010, 10:53pm
Post #8 of 10
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I believe Gandalf makes a statement at the Council of Elrond
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that the destruction of the Ring would not destroy Sauron but would weaken him to the point that he (Gandalf) could not foresee him ever becoming a threat again.
"Rabbit's clever," said Pooh thoughtfully.
"Yes," said Piglet, "Rabbit's clever."
"And he has Brains."
"Yes," said Piglet, "Rabbit has Brains."
There was a long silence.
"I suppose," said Pooh, "that that's why he never understands anything."
- A. A. Milne
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Feb 18 2010, 9:36am
Post #9 of 10
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But I'm afraid I'm still not convinced. How many times was Sauron's body destroyed in the first and second ages and he still managed to reincarnate himself. Given how powerful Saruman was and how tough his body must have been and that he knew more than a thing or two about the magic of the soul, I don't think that simply slitting his throat would have done the trick!
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Eldy
Tol Eressea
Feb 18 2010, 2:42pm
Post #10 of 10
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Saruman, as an Istar, was physically incarnated in a real body. Sauron's bodies were different; he could operate without one (while the Ring was intact), create new ones, and for much of his existence even choose his form. Saruman was stuck in his body after being sent to Middle-earth as an Istar, and was thus far more vulnerable.
And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our soul
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How everything still turns to gold
And if you listen very hard
The truth will come to you at last
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll
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