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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Main:
Did Saruman die?

Hamfast Gamgee
Gondor

Feb 14 2010, 9:11am

Post #1 of 10 (785 views)
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Did Saruman die? Can't Post

At the end of the Scouring of the Shire, Saruman has his throat cut by Worntongue. Fair enough, but would this be enough to kill a powerful Maia like Saruman? When one considers that Gandalf survived been plunged thousands of feet with a Balrog on top of him and that Sauron body was destroyed many times and he yet survived would Saruman really have been destroyed simply having had some dork cutting his throat? Or did his spirit re-form somewhere?


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Feb 14 2010, 10:55am

Post #2 of 10 (337 views)
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He was dispersed [In reply to] Can't Post

'Out of the West came a cold wind..." The Gods eliminated him.

Kangi Ska

At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.




RosieLass
Valinor


Feb 15 2010, 8:06pm

Post #3 of 10 (296 views)
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Technically, Gandalf also "died." [In reply to] Can't Post

But he was sent back and given a new body.

(I think that's the correct interpretation, isn't it?)

"Rabbit's clever," said Pooh thoughtfully.
"Yes," said Piglet, "Rabbit's clever."
"And he has Brains."
"Yes," said Piglet, "Rabbit has Brains."
There was a long silence.
"I suppose," said Pooh, "that that's why he never understands anything."


- A. A. Milne


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 15 2010, 10:52pm

Post #4 of 10 (273 views)
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Saruman Is [In reply to] Can't Post

Dead as a doornail.

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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Feb 15 2010, 11:02pm

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No. Neither did Sauron. [In reply to] Can't Post

Spirits cannot be destroyed within the universe --Tolkien mentioned this "rule" in a letter-- though they can be broken and scattered so as to be too weak to rebuild within time.

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Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Feb 15 2010, 11:11pm

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Broken & Scattered: [In reply to] Can't Post

"Spirits cannot be destroyed within the universe --Tolkien mentioned this "rule" in a letter-- though they can be broken and scattered so as to be too weak to rebuild within time."

Saruman was broken & scattered: Gandalf's Mair Spirit Remained in tact and was given a new souped up White Wizard body makeover.


Kangi Ska

At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.




almas_sparks
Rohan

Feb 16 2010, 2:08am

Post #7 of 10 (294 views)
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no, they remain sentient and sulky [In reply to] Can't Post

but are invisible or like shadows and cannot do anything because they cannot take physical form. They just wander around and sulk a lot.

I hope anyone who knows Tolkien better can help me with the following. if my memory is correct, Tolkien said that Ainu spirits like Melkor,Sauron and Saruman would be able to restore their glorious selves if they trully repented but that they were way past that point so melkor remained scary looking while locked up in the void and S&S are sentient and sulky shadows/ghosts. So they are out there but since they can`t do harm or otherwise, nobody knows they are here. Laugh


(This post was edited by almas_sparks on Feb 16 2010, 2:08am)


RosieLass
Valinor


Feb 17 2010, 10:53pm

Post #8 of 10 (232 views)
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I believe Gandalf makes a statement at the Council of Elrond [In reply to] Can't Post

that the destruction of the Ring would not destroy Sauron but would weaken him to the point that he (Gandalf) could not foresee him ever becoming a threat again.

"Rabbit's clever," said Pooh thoughtfully.
"Yes," said Piglet, "Rabbit's clever."
"And he has Brains."
"Yes," said Piglet, "Rabbit has Brains."
There was a long silence.
"I suppose," said Pooh, "that that's why he never understands anything."


- A. A. Milne


Hamfast Gamgee
Gondor

Feb 18 2010, 9:36am

Post #9 of 10 (203 views)
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Thank you for your replies [In reply to] Can't Post

But I'm afraid I'm still not convinced. How many times was Sauron's body destroyed in the first and second ages and he still managed to reincarnate himself. Given how powerful Saruman was and how tough his body must have been and that he knew more than a thing or two about the magic of the soul, I don't think that simply slitting his throat would have done the trick!


Eldorion
Rohan


Feb 18 2010, 2:42pm

Post #10 of 10 (541 views)
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They're not comparable [In reply to] Can't Post

Saruman, as an Istar, was physically incarnated in a real body. Sauron's bodies were different; he could operate without one (while the Ring was intact), create new ones, and for much of his existence even choose his form. Saruman was stuck in his body after being sent to Middle-earth as an Istar, and was thus far more vulnerable.

And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our soul
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How everything still turns to gold
And if you listen very hard
The truth will come to you at last
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll

 
 

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