Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
"For sixty years the ring has laid quite in Bilbo's keeping,
First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All

Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 31 2010, 10:40pm

Post #1 of 71 (2621 views)
Shortcut
"For sixty years the ring has laid quite in Bilbo's keeping, Can't Post

prolonging his life and delaying his old age." Gandalf in "Shadow of the Past"(Fotr EE Movie)

So if you do the math (111 take away 60)
Bilbo is fifty to fiftyone years of age at the finding of the One Ring in Gollum's Cave. This might be a strong indicator for the the casting of Bilbo in the up coming Hobbit films. I know that there has been a protracted discussion of Hobbit years versus Human years and I do not know if there can be a definitive settlement of this issue based on textual references. I do know that Ian Holm was aged back to appear roughly in the Gollum's Cave scene in FotR.

I assert, based an multiple readings and thirty years of study, that Tolkien intended Bilbo to be and act like an independently wealthy country squire of fifty years of age at the start of The Hobbit. He is soft. He has been living a very quiet life in an idyllic country and is complacent to no end. He goes of the adventure gets hardened by the trek and discovers, through the well known series of events, that there is much more to him than he thought. He gains an insight into social matters and historical matters that transforms him into one of the Wise as shown later in Lord of the Ring.

I do believe that the casting of Bilbo is the one most critical thing that can make or break the films. To fulfill all of the criteria necessary for a brilliant portrayal of the role should require someone masterfully skilled in the art of movie acting. There are very few young men who qualify at this level as well as the other maters of importance. (These being height, physical type, relationship to earlier casting of Ian Holm in the role Etc.)

I would life your considered opinions on this matter.



Kangi Ska

At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.




almas_sparks
Rohan

Jan 31 2010, 10:52pm

Post #2 of 71 (1127 views)
Shortcut
but also keep in mind [In reply to] Can't Post

that majority of people who will see The Hobbit don`t spend time nitpicking every single bit of the book, casting,etc. They`ll accept whoever is served as Bilbo. The movies are not made for nitpickers only nor is deviation from what nitpickers (means us) want a disrespect to the source. Movie doesn`t have to capture every little detail but the spirit and idea behind the story and character. And, IMO, the point of Bilbo`s adventure and the spirit of Bilbo aren`t in that he was a middle-aged man but that he did something that was a big no-no for any Hobbit. It`s a cultural thing more than age thing. His age never plays a part in anything anyway. he complains how much he misses his old life; he doesn`t complain about not being abe to do this or that because he`s old or whatever. Age doesn`t define who he is.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 31 2010, 10:57pm

Post #3 of 71 (1120 views)
Shortcut
The opening Quote above is from the Peter Jackson Movie not the book [In reply to] Can't Post

In this case the book & movie concur. Bilbo was/ will be 51 at the finding of the ring.

Kangi Ska

At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.




almas_sparks
Rohan

Jan 31 2010, 11:28pm

Post #4 of 71 (1133 views)
Shortcut
Hobbit`s 51 not actor`s 51 [In reply to] Can't Post

They are not going to cast 50 years old or older for Bilbo. Thorin maybe, probably, very likely, yes but not Bilbo.


Oiotári
Tol Eressea


Jan 31 2010, 11:53pm

Post #5 of 71 (1092 views)
Shortcut
yes, I suppose... [In reply to] Can't Post

since a hobbit's life expectancy is significantly higher than ours it would make sense that they wouldn't be as "old" as humans would at 50 years of age

Also, I'm inclined to think that at a hobbit's coming of age (33) they would probably be at a similar point in their life as we would (18-ish)

so, while they shouldn't cast a twenty-some year old as Bilbo, an actor in their later 30s could be all right

but then, I'm just thinking this through here, not really sure how accurate I am, someone else is probably much more studied on this than I am



Faithless is he who says farewell when the road darkens


Elafacwen
The Shire


Feb 1 2010, 12:18am

Post #6 of 71 (1068 views)
Shortcut
Agree [In reply to] Can't Post

I too think the said actor should be/look in the upper 30's or early to mid 40's.


>>---------->


batik
Tol Eressea


Feb 1 2010, 12:53am

Post #7 of 71 (1176 views)
Shortcut
other *film* hobbits--for comparison [In reply to] Can't Post


The Gaffer...born 2926...about 75 years of age at the time of the Party.



Lobelia S-B...born 2918...about 82/83 in the year 3001.
Otho S-B...born 2910...about 91 years of age.



Tom Cotton....born 2941....about 60 in 3001 (but I believe this shot is from the last few minutes of RotK).

(dates of birth and photos identifying characters from the Thain's Book)


(This post was edited by batik on Feb 1 2010, 12:55am)


Oiotári
Tol Eressea


Feb 1 2010, 1:14am

Post #8 of 71 (1079 views)
Shortcut
hmm... interesting [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks batik Smile

Gaffer looks a lot older than Lobelia and Otho despite being younger...



Faithless is he who says farewell when the road darkens


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Feb 1 2010, 2:45am

Post #9 of 71 (1122 views)
Shortcut
Humans Have the Same Statistical Spread on Aging and thus Appearance [In reply to] Can't Post

Some appear younger than their age, others look older. Some die of old age at 45 some live to 110.

This is not the point. What you are doing by viewing the film as evidence is what I was pointing out.

Kangi Ska

At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.




Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Feb 1 2010, 3:22am

Post #10 of 71 (1076 views)
Shortcut
The point, rather [In reply to] Can't Post

..is that anyone is welcome to make their own points in any thread, and to make them however they like (as long as it's within the rules of engagement here, and unlike someone starting a new thread to make a point despite the fact that there's an almost identical discussion that is still on page one of this board. Tongue)

I personally think it's impossible *not* to 'view the film as evidence' at this stage of the game and only adds to the discussion, rather than detracting from it.

In general (not directed at any one person in particular), anyone who starts a thread (anywhere on the internet, for that matter) needs to be prepared for it to go off in whatever direction it happens to go off in. Trying to micro-manage the direction of a thread in any one direction is like herding cats (trust me Wink) and discounting anyone's opinion or contribution in any thread is going down a road that's not in keeping with the spirit of this site.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase



TORn Calendar

(This post was edited by Altaira on Feb 1 2010, 3:30am)


Oiotári
Tol Eressea


Feb 1 2010, 3:32am

Post #11 of 71 (1075 views)
Shortcut
in that post I was more just observing [In reply to] Can't Post

"thinking out loud" about what I saw in the pictures

I'm not sure if PJ was trying to match the ages of all the characters or not

I apologize if I upset you Unsure



Faithless is he who says farewell when the road darkens


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Feb 1 2010, 3:32am

Post #12 of 71 (1075 views)
Shortcut
No intention to discount anyone's opinion or control thread [In reply to] Can't Post

I may have been unclear on a response or misread the post I was responding to. I will try to act with more care.

Kangi Ska

At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.




Gildor
Rivendell

Feb 1 2010, 3:52am

Post #13 of 71 (1052 views)
Shortcut
I support you on this! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you. I have felt belittled and discounted by some of the replies to my comments, and I just want to say I'm glad you mentioned that,"discounting anyone's opinion or contribution in any thread is going down a road that's not in keeping with the spirit of this site. " I'm here for conversation and discussion, not to be belittled, discounted, etc.


Gildor
Rivendell

Feb 1 2010, 4:06am

Post #14 of 71 (1077 views)
Shortcut
Humans versus Hobbits in age and maturity [In reply to] Can't Post

Some appear younger than their age, others look older. Some die of old age at 45 some live to 110.

This is not the point. What you are doing by viewing the film as evidence is what I was pointing out.

Although very few hobbits lived to 111 or more (like Bilbo), I think Tolkien indicates in FOTR that majority of hobbits live to 90-100 or so. I'll spend some time looking through FOTR, but does someone else have the details on this? If this is so, which I think it is at least close, and you combine this with 33 being the coming of age, then Hobbits actually do on average mature later and live longer than humans. The average American (or brit or other white person that Tolkien had in mind when he wrote this stuff) was living into 70-75, more or less. So for me, this means roughly:

Human Hobbit
18-21 30-35
30-40 50-55
70-75 85-95

These are just estimates of course, but I think they are close to what Tolkien was approximating. This would but Bilbo in TH as young but fully into adulthood, at the beginning of TH. Of course, I think it's also important to remember that Hobbits in general were characterized as being 'less mature and more innocent' for their relative age than humans would be. So a hobbit of 50 would probably act perhaps like a human in their 20's. I guess this last bit doesn't matter regarding the age of the actor, but since in a movie much is made of appearance as metaphor for the character and what is happening around them, perhaps the actor should be cast even younger than the relative age.

Gildor








Oiotári
Tol Eressea


Feb 1 2010, 4:07am

Post #15 of 71 (1037 views)
Shortcut
I appreciate the apology [In reply to] Can't Post

thank you Smile I'm glad people can get along here Smile



Faithless is he who says farewell when the road darkens


Finrod
Rohan


Feb 1 2010, 4:08am

Post #16 of 71 (1060 views)
Shortcut
Tiny typo in quote + more remote sourcing [In reply to] Can't Post

Ahem — there are no magical geese a‐laying any golden rings here, just One Ring that had (entirely on its own) long lain quiet.

Although the miswording wouldn’t have changed anything of cosmic import, surely they would never have let Gandalf say the (here‐)ungrammatical has laid, and Sir Ian would never have uttered it unless he were acting the part of a far less learnèd character than the ancient loremaster from time before Time.

A minor typo, but still: it ruins the mood. The actual lines are:
GANDALF: This is the One Ring. Forged by the Dark Lord Sauron in the fires of Mount Doom. Taken by Isildur from the hand of Sauron himself.

FRODO: Bilbo found it. In Gollum’s cave.

GANDALF: Yes. For sixty years, the Ring lay quiet, in Bilbo’s keeping, prolonging his life, delaying old age. But no longer, Frodo. Evil is stirring in Mordor. The Ring has awoken. It’s heard its master’s call.
I’ve just listened quite carefully to the scene in the film, and it precisely follows the words given above. I took them, punctuation included, from the closed-captioning text, and I’ve triple‐checked them for accuracy. Had they been as the OP’s putative subject line had them, their cognitive dissonance would certainly have startled me, and I recalled no such thing occurring. Although this is the most minor of immaterial matters, putting such fundamentally flawed words into the mouth of Gandalf himself too strains the illusion of consistency crucial to the subcreation’s magic.

Note that I took this from the disc of the original cinematic release, not from the extended edition, which I also saw in cinema, on 2003–12–17, that best and longest of days. This proves that the Ring’s age‐retardant effect on Bilbo, so clear in the novel, was always present, even in the film’s initial, shorter release. It was not unique to the longer release, as some here have seemed to suggest.

One more aside. Please pardon me while I gush.

I am again stunned by the craft that with each subtle eye movement, with each exquisitely intoned word, and with each pregnant pause in carefully measured lines, Sir Ian brought to the character of Gandalf the Grey. Magnificent! He deserves more than the nominations he received for the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor and the BAFTA Award for Best Actor in a Leading Role as the The Fellowship’s Grey Pilgrim. He deserves to have won!

Seeing him again in the rôle that he so made his own, the rôle he preferred over the White Wizard he would come to play in the two later films, rekindles my excitement and anticipation about these upcoming Hobbit films. Watch again just these few short minutes from this particular scene, and see whether Sir Ian’s marvelous art doesn’t work the same dweomer on you. A true pleasure!

…all eyes looked upon the ring; for he held it now aloft, and the green jewels gleamed there that the Noldor had devised in Valinor. For this ring was like to twin serpents, whose eyes were emeralds, and their heads met beneath a crown of golden flowers, that the one upheld and the other devoured; that was the badge of Finarfin and his house.
The Silmarillion, pp 150-151
while Felagund laughs beneath the trees
in Valinor and comes no more
to this grey world of tears and war.
The Lays of Beleriand, p 311




Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Feb 1 2010, 4:19am

Post #17 of 71 (1009 views)
Shortcut
I really really agree with you on this. // [In reply to] Can't Post

If I respond with a point that seems to do that very thing it is not intended. I believe that explicating complicated situations requires constant reevaluation of ones opinions. ( I am speaking for myself and my opinions here.) I love to learn and if I am presented with opinions that do not seem to fit with my experience I might question them or present an alternative. This is not intended to be personal. I have learned a lot and relearned even more since I became active on these boards. I hope to continue to do so.

Kangi Ska

At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.




Oiotári
Tol Eressea


Feb 1 2010, 4:24am

Post #18 of 71 (1052 views)
Shortcut
I like seeing all the information laid out nicely [In reply to] Can't Post

makes for easier analysis
this all seems accurate to me, along the same lines as I was thinking

you make a good point on maturity
although sometimes I question the maturity level of many humans Tongue

don't have any more to add...



Faithless is he who says farewell when the road darkens


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Feb 1 2010, 5:27am

Post #19 of 71 (1066 views)
Shortcut
long lain quiet [In reply to] Can't Post

I am hard of hearing and listened three times to that phrase and was not sure. Thanks for the information.

Kangi Ska

At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.




Finrod
Rohan


Feb 1 2010, 8:55am

Post #20 of 71 (1086 views)
Shortcut
It’s all in the genes: 100 hobbit-years = 70 human-years [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Although very few hobbits lived to 111 or more (like Bilbo), I think Tolkien indicates in FOTR that majority of hobbits live to 90-100 or so. I'll spend some time looking through FOTR, but does someone else have the details on this?


Why, certainly. Taking the lives of fifty‐three hobbits into account, their median age at death was 99, the mode was 102, and the mean was 98.42 with a standard deviation of 8.87.

Which seems to settle the matter quite soundly. Sure, two or three might be a coincidence, although four or five is looking downright fishy. But the aggregate weight of fifty‐three data points that collectively tell a single story is certainly the result of a carefully planned design.

That’s pretty conclusive evidence that you can take 100 as the hobbit equivalent of a man’s proverbial three‐score and ten allotted years — a particular measure Tolkien was known to also use when deriving ages for Númenóreans. Now apply that 70% figure to the age of majority and to the childbearing years we know hobbits to have followed, and you find that they all line up fairly closely, plus or minus a year or three.

Bingo!

During this research, I was reminded of how:
  • Bilbo is Frodo’s first and second cousin, both once removed; Merry’s and Pippin’s first and second cousin, both twice removed; and Fatty Bolger’s first cousin, twice removed.
  • Frodo is Bilbo’s first and second cousin, both once removed; Merry’s first, second, and third cousin, all once removed; Pippin’s second and third cousin, both once removed; and Fatty Bolger’s second cousin, once removed.
  • Pippin is Bilbo’s first and second cousin, both twice removed; Frodo’s second and third cousin, once removed; Merry’s first cousin, his third cousin, and also his first cousin, once removed; and Fatty Bolger’s third cousin.
  • Merry is Bilbo’s first and second cousin, both twice removed; Frodo’s first, second, and third cousin, all once removed; Pippin’s first cousin, his third cousin, and also his first cousin, once removed; and Fatty Bolger’s third cousin.
Just in case you’d forgotten. :)

…all eyes looked upon the ring; for he held it now aloft, and the green jewels gleamed there that the Noldor had devised in Valinor. For this ring was like to twin serpents, whose eyes were emeralds, and their heads met beneath a crown of golden flowers, that the one upheld and the other devoured; that was the badge of Finarfin and his house.
The Silmarillion, pp 150-151
while Felagund laughs beneath the trees
in Valinor and comes no more
to this grey world of tears and war.
The Lays of Beleriand, p 311




Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Feb 1 2010, 9:43am

Post #21 of 71 (1019 views)
Shortcut
This is perfectly true [In reply to] Can't Post

If Tolkien didn't intentionally skew the examples he presented in detail. To make it statistically valid you need a random sample across the population. Since this is not possible, the statistics only apply to the sample and cannot be generalized to a general population (real or imaginary). You may infer that Tolkien intended this to be generalizable but in the absence of any documented statement by the author it remains as speculation. I admit that it is a good inference of his intent but it can't be given the weight of fact. I am interested and will be searching for any forthright statement of this as a fact. If you can supply the reference to such a statement. I will will be greatful as it might save me days of fruitless effort.

Kangi Ska

At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.




squire
Valinor


Feb 1 2010, 11:47am

Post #22 of 71 (1047 views)
Shortcut
More true than we have a right to expect [In reply to] Can't Post

I think we should be careful about what we call "facts" for an imaginary world. The same statistical rules do not apply equally to "real or imaginary" general populations. All talk of a need for "random samples across the population" and Tolkien "intentionally skewing the examples" assumes that hobbits exist or existed. They don't, of course. The Shire and its inhabitants can never be measured beyond the data that Tolkien writes in his books or letters. Furthermore, as we know, even those data will be contradictory or inconsistent depending on when the author conceived them, and whether he was aware of (or concerned with matching) his earlier conceptions when he did.

Since we are presently concerned with the question of hobbit lifespans, we are blessed with Tolkien's geneological tables, which give us far more data on ages for an imaginary race than probably any other author ever bothered to produce. Finrod has done a noble work of analyzing it, and showing that the tables confirm that, indeed, the hobbits' typical life span is about 100 years.

To speculate that this is incomplete and limited data - possibly "skewed" by the author - and so statistically invalid, is to miss the point. These data don't beg for a generalization by Tolkien to make them valid in our eyes. They confirm the generalization that Tolkien gave at first, and with which most authors would have been content:
Sixty years had passed since [Bilbo] set out on his memorable journey, and he was old even for Hobbits, who reached a hundred as often as not; (Prologue, The Fellowship of the Ring)
The data are intentionally skewed, naturally, but in this sense: Tolkien created the 53 birth and death dates for his hobbit geneologies, with the above statement in mind. Of course Finrod's analysis only reveals Tolkien's consistency and love of data, and does not have any actual "weight of fact" about factless creatures. But it does show the author's own strong and consistent support for his already-stated imaginary fact very well, as we have come to expect of this rather detail-oriented fantasist. His data follow the literary fact of hobbit longevity, rather than creating it.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Feb 1 2010, 1:08pm

Post #23 of 71 (1023 views)
Shortcut
Yes also true: [In reply to] Can't Post

So given these "facts" I guess it is perfectly OK to cast a twenty year old to play the fifty one year old Bilbo Baggins in the up coming movies. I yield to your superior logic.

Kangi Ska

At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.




Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Feb 1 2010, 3:11pm

Post #24 of 71 (1007 views)
Shortcut
No-one is suggesting that they cast a 20 year old [In reply to] Can't Post

Least of all squire, who has more consistently called for an accurate adaptation of the story of The Hobbit (rather than LOTR-lite) than anyone here. The arguments being presented here would call for an actor appearing in the 35-40 year old range, not a 20 year old. I think a perfectly reasonable argument could be made for casting a 50 year old to match what likely was Tolkien's intentions when he wrote The Hobbit itself, but I doubt they will do that. I will be satisfied if the actor is a mature-looking late 30s to early 40s.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

www.arda-reconstructed.com


Annael
Half-elven


Feb 1 2010, 4:16pm

Post #25 of 71 (989 views)
Shortcut
thank you for saying that [In reply to] Can't Post

although I personally find it frustrating when people go off on a tangent that is not the one I hoped to pursue when I started a thread, so understand that completely. But I find it even more frustrating when the person who starts a thread replies to every single reply and turns it all into a dialogue with them (like with a teacher, in school) instead of allowing the group to develop the question in their own way. I think the latter is more appropriate to this kind of board. I actually left the Reading Room because there was too much of the former style there after a while (not at first!).

The way we imagine our lives is the way we are going to go on living our lives.

- James Hillman, Healing Fiction

* * * * * * * * * *

NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967

(This post was edited by Annael on Feb 1 2010, 4:17pm)

First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.