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Akallabeth Part 1.3

acheron
Gondor


Jan 28 2010, 1:12pm

Post #1 of 23 (3707 views)
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Akallabeth Part 1.3 Can't Post

The Numenoreans become great sailors, but the Valar forbid them to sail too far west. The Valar's reasoning is that if Men come to the Undying Lands, they will become less satisfied with their own situation, and become "enamoured of the immortality of the Valar and the Eldar and the lands where all things endure". The Numenoreans don't really buy into this, though at first they follow it anyway. Do you think this was a wise decision on the part of the Valar? Maybe there was no good way to handle it, but it does seem as though forbidding Men from even approaching the Undying Lands makes it easy for Sauron to convince the Men that the Valar were hiding something.

Even before Sauron enters the picture, Men start to question the Ban. Not only on the subject of why they should be subjected to death and the Eldar not (this of course is a question the Valar themselves cannot answer, being solely in the realm of Eru), but also the more temporal: "Since we have mastered all seas... why should we not go to Avallone and greet there our friends?" Some take it further, wondering why they cannot go to Aman to greet the Valar themselves ("taste there... the bliss of the Powers"). Manwe sends "messengers" to Numenor to attempt to answer the questions. (Who are these "messengers"? Eonwe and others taking physical form? How would they announce themselves upon arriving? Even in the world of the Second Age, I think the King of Numenor would be shocked if someone showed up saying "I'm an angelic messenger of Manwe, Lord of the West".) The messengers say first that the lands of Aman would not make Men immortal, that mortality is part of their nature. They then say that if Men were to come to Aman, they would "but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast". I can certainly picture myself growing weary of life sooner if I grew older in a land where nothing else did; do they just mean this type of 'psychological' weariness, or is something more 'spiritual' or 'magical' at work there?

The messengers explain more of the nature of death and the world. What do you think of the idea of death as 'leaving the circles of the world' and being a 'gift'? I find it a very interesting take on the idea of the afterlife, and in my own way I find it better than the idea of death as a 'punishment' that other myths suggest. A more comforting myth, anyway.

The Numenoreans still aren't buying it, though, and Tar-Atanamir clings to life and the throne rather than giving up either willingly. If you lived for a long time, would you go to death willingly? There's almost an echo of our own world's current debate about assisted suicide here. Not that Tolkien would consider this suicide, as such; the Men of Numenor seem to have the vision to know when their time is done, and they just need to accept that to move on. Perhaps not a distinction we could make in the primary world, but in Tolkien's world it is an important distinction. (Compare Denethor in ROTK.)

Now the Numenoreans continue to abide by the ban of the Valar, but only out of fear, rather then respect. They instead continue sailing east to Middle-earth, and begin to make settlements. There is another note of religion here as the King no longer "offer(s) the first fruits to Eru", which apparently was a ceremony in the older days of Numenor.

For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams

(This post was edited by Inferno on Jan 28 2010, 5:27pm)


Eldy
Tol Eressea


Jan 28 2010, 3:19pm

Post #2 of 23 (3633 views)
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Very interesting... [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you think this was a wise decision on the part of the Valar?

No, I think that by giving the Numenoreans a taste of paradise (their island closer to Valinor than Middle-earth, sometimes a site of Avallone) they were sowing the seeds of discontent. The Numenoreans got a taste none but the elves had received previously, but it made them all the more hungry for the real deal. I think it would have been far wiser of the Valar to give the Numenoreans some of the gifts (certain arts and crafts, long life, etc.) and let them develop Middle-earth for their own.

Who are these "messengers"?

Probably Maia, like many of his heralds (I doubt Mandos went to Numenor; if he had it might have been destroyed earlier than it ended up being, he never struck me as having a lot of patience or compassion Tongue).

do they just mean this type of 'psychological' weariness, or is something more 'spiritual' or 'magical' at work there?

I think it's a spiritual/magical thing (perhaps similar to the Silmaril making Luthien die earlier because it was too great to be in Middle-earth - if I recall correctly). Another possibility is that the Valar just didn't understand humans; I have a hard time imagining humans wearying of life in paradise, especially if they knew how bad it was outside.

What do you think of the idea of death as 'leaving the circles of the world' and being a 'gift'?

My idea has always been that men, after leaving the world, go to the Timeless Halls and abide with Eru and the Ainur who remained there in a more 'classic' sense of heaven than Valinor. Given that the Elves might not survive the world, men are in a way more immortal than the elves. In that sense it is a gift, though the fear of not knowing and the pain of separation (even if it is temporary) certainly makes it, as Arwen said, "bitter to receive".

If you lived for a long time, would you go to death willingly?

I can't say. If my loved ones could also live for a long time I might indeed do so, but if they died I don't think I'd want to outlast them by too much. Even if they did though, I can imagine getting tired after hundreds of years and countless changes and wanting a personal peace from the world. This is a bit too deep for me to come to any concrete decision on at the moment though.


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jan 29 2010, 2:39am

Post #3 of 23 (3369 views)
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Death, death, death! [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you think this was a wise decision on the part of the Valar?

No, not wise, any more than it was "wise" for God to place the Tree of Knowledge within reach of Adam and Eve, and then tell them not to eat its fruit. The "forbidden fruit" is a universal mythic element, and this is really what we have here.


Quote
forbidding Men from even approaching the Undying Lands makes it easy for Sauron to convince the Men that the Valar were hiding something...


Yes, replace "Sauron" with "Satan" and this is Genesis all over again...

This doesn't have to make rational or psychological sense, IMO. It just has to make mythic sense.


Who are these "messengers"?

I agree with Eldorion - most likely Maiar heralds of the Valar. "Angel" means "messenger", which is perhaps why Maiar are often described (although not by Tolkien, as far as I know) as "angelic beings".


I can certainly picture myself growing weary of life sooner if I grew older in a land where nothing else did; do they just mean this type of 'psychological' weariness, or is something more 'spiritual' or 'magical' at work there?

This is a world where there's no either/or between the physical and the spiritual - we moderns are burdened with a split in our experience between the "rational" and the magical/mythical/spiritual. As Tolkien's friend Owen Barfield theorized, early peoples didn't have this separation of their experiences - for them, everything was magical and spiritual. This is the "stage of imagination" that Tolkien is constantly trying to recreate in his stories, I believe.


What do you think of the idea of death as 'leaving the circles of the world' and being a 'gift'?

The Higher Powers like to give gifts that require a lot of faith and endurance to enjoy. Look at Earendil, given the "gift" of becoming a star! Mortals who are blessed with enough wisdom and selflessness to accept their mortality do indeed receive a great gift, in that, unlike Elves they go to another, unknown place where, with faith, they may believe something even better than Valinor awaits them.

But in fact, within the story, death is rarely seen as a gift. It's usually portrayed as a tragedy, otherwise there'd really be no jeopardy to make battles, quarrels, murders etc. have any storytelling power.


If you lived for a long time, would you go to death willingly?

It depends. People who are ill and suffering, people who have lost their strength and have outlived their friends, might well wish for death. People of faith, if their faith holds true, often have peaceful, willing deaths. But someone who still has power and health and strength? That would be a much harder test. Aragorn passes it, but Arwen seems to find her mortality a very bitter gift indeed.

Denethor chooses death rather than life without power - he seems to be an example of death not as a gift but as a punishment, and that goes for his determination to take Faramir with him, because, if death is a gift, wouldn't he really be doing Faramir a favour?


They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Curious
Half-elven


Jan 29 2010, 2:50am

Post #4 of 23 (3361 views)
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Thoughts. [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you think [forbidding Men from approaching the Undying Lands] was a wise decision on the part of the Valar?

As I understand it, the Undying Lands pose a great danger to Men, because few men have the wisdom to embrace death when their bodies have not aged. Yet if they lived in the Undying Lands and refused to give up the ghost when they reached the end of their natural lifespans, horrible things could happen. So it was really for the sake of Men that the Valar forbid them from approaching the Undying Lands. If the Valar made a mistake, they did so when they created Numenor, or much earlier when they first retreated to the Undying Lands. But once they retreated to the Undying Lands and created Numenor, they simply could not allow Men to enter the Undying Lands without endangering such visitors.

Manwe sends "messengers" to Numenor to attempt to answer the questions. Who are these "messengers"?

Good question. It reminds me of the Istari, but there's no indication that they visited Numenor in the Second Age. I think the messengers were likely members of the Eldar, who for a long time continued to travel back and forth to Numenor. But it's possible that one or more of the Maiar came to Numenor, although not, I think, in bodies of human flesh like the Istari. They could have taken human form, though, or whatever form they chose.

The messengers say first that the lands of Aman would not make Men immortal, that mortality is part of their nature. They then say that if Men were to come to Aman, they would "but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast". I can certainly picture myself growing weary of life sooner if I grew older in a land where nothing else did; do they just mean this type of 'psychological' weariness, or is something more 'spiritual' or 'magical' at work there?

From what I understand in Tolkien's later writings, the lands of Aman might make the bodies of Men immortal, but not their spirits, and therein lies the problem. When the time came to die, the spirit would try to leave the body, and trouble would ensue. If the spirit left the body, a sort of zombie would remain, while if the spirit did not leave the body, the man would go insane. As for withering and growing weary the sooner, perhaps this meant that the spirit would desire to leave the body even sooner than if the man never came to the Undying Lands -- if so, this raises the question of whether Frodo survived to see Sam.

The messengers explain more of the nature of death and the world. What do you think of the idea of death as 'leaving the circles of the world' and being a 'gift'? I find it a very interesting take on the idea of the afterlife, and in my own way I find it better than the idea of death as a 'punishment' that other myths suggest. A more comforting myth, anyway.

Well, in "Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth" (The Debate of Finrod and Andreth), found in Morgoth's Ring, Tolkien implies that perhaps death was a punishment after all, and that originally man was not destined to die. But perhaps that was a late attempt to make his mythology conform to Catholic orthodoxy. The idea of death as a gift is not orthodox Christianity, but it does bear some resemblance to Jesus' promise of everlasting life, which makes devout Christians happy to martyr themselves. The problem is that Tolkien attempts to fit a New Testament idea (everlasting heavenly life after death) into an Old Testament world (no Christ -- yet). When Beren died, Luthien found him in the Halls of Mandos, and I wonder whether all human spirits waited in the Halls of Mandos for Christ to come and release them, so that they could eventually leave the circles of the world. This would look more like the Catholic notion of Purgatory and Limbo.

If you lived for a long time, would you go to death willingly? It would be hard, of course. But once the Numenorean kings saw what happened to those who clinged to life when the call came, perhaps it would have been easier. Quality of life matters, and I have a living will because there are some circumstances where I would not want aggressive measures taken to extend my life.


Eldy
Tol Eressea


Jan 29 2010, 4:15am

Post #5 of 23 (3365 views)
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Two points [In reply to] Can't Post

The Istari wouldn't have visited Numenor since they did not yet exist in Istari form. They were Maia who had beem imcarnated in physical bodies, but in the Second Age the spirits who would become the Istari did not have any distinction from the other Maia.

About the Undying Lands; they are called that because their inhabitants are undying, not because of some special property of them. The inability of the Valar to remove the Gift of Death is mentioned in the Akallabeth. A mortal in Valinor would still die.


Curious
Half-elven


Jan 29 2010, 4:31am

Post #6 of 23 (3401 views)
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Yes, I agree about the Istari. About Men in Aman, though, [In reply to] Can't Post

let me quote from Myths Transformed in Morgoth's Ring (HoME X):


Quote

But let us suppose that the 'blessing of Aman' was also accorded to Men. What then? Would a great good be done to them? Their bodies would still come swiftly to full growth. In the seventh part of a year a Man could be born and become full-grown, as swiftly as in Aman a bird would hatch and fly from the nest. But then it would not wither or age but would endure in vigour and in the delight of bodily living. But what of that Man's fëa? Its nature and 'doom' could not be changed, neither by the health of Aman nor by the will of Manwë himself. Yet it is (as the Eldar hold) its nature and doom under the will of Eru that it should not endure Arda for long, but should depart and go elsewhither, returning maybe direct to Eru for another fate or purpose that is beyond the knowledge or guess of the Eldar.

Very soon then the fëa and hröa of a Man in Aman would not be united and at peace, but would be opposed, to the great pain of both. The hröa being in full vigour and joy of life would cling to the fëa, lest its departure should bring death; and against death it would revolt as would a great beast in full life either flee from the hunter or turn savagely upon him. But the fëa would be as it were in prison, becoming ever more weary of all the delights of the hröa, until they were loathsome to it, longing ever more and more to be gone, until even those matters for its thought that it received through the hröa and its senses became meaningless. The Man would not be blessed, but accursed; and he would curse the Valar and Aman and all the things of Arda. And he would not willingly leave Aman, for that would mean rapid death, and he would have to be thrust forth with violence. But if he remained in Aman, what should he come to, ere Arda were at last fulfilled and he found release? Either his fëa would be wholly dominated by the hröa, and he would become more like a beast, though one tormented within. Or else, if his fëa were strong, it would leave the hröa, Then one of two things would happen: either this would be accomplished only in hate, by violence, and the hroa, in full life, would be rent and die in sudden agony; or else the fëa would in loathing and without pity desert the hroa, and it would live on, a witless body, not even a beast but a monster, a very work of Melkor in the midst of Aman, which the Valar themselves would fain destroy



Eldy
Tol Eressea


Jan 29 2010, 4:49am

Post #7 of 23 (3589 views)
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Myths Transformed... [In reply to] Can't Post

...needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Actually, a whole salt mine would be preferable. Tongue

My copy of Morgoth's Ring did not, unfortunately, come with me to my dorm, but I remember it as Tolkien's notes outlining what would effectively have been a complete overhaul of the mythology. I'm not saying we should ignore it - it has some fascinating information, especially about Orcs - but if you accept it then you end up in the awkward position of throwing out most of The Silmarillion (HOME drafts included) as mannish myths reflective more of ignorant traditions than what 'actually' happenned.

I don't really want this to become an essay on First Age canon, but I would reject most of Myths Transformed even though I have no universal canon standard. Tolkien never followed through on the rewrites MT would have necessitated, and there are so many contradictions between MT and the rest of the corpus (not to suggest that the rest is free of contradictions, but it has a few standard features, such as the world initially being flat) that both cannot be accepted. I treat MT as a fascinating look at what might have happenned, but no more concrete in the face of contradiction than other rejected versions of the legendarium, such as the Book of Lost Tales.

Moving back on topic, I would go with the alternative account since there is a contradiction. If you're not convinced about MT I can try to elaborate, but later, when I'm not typing on a qwerty keyboard. Unimpressed


(This post was edited by Eldorion on Jan 29 2010, 4:50am)


Curious
Half-elven


Jan 29 2010, 5:18am

Post #8 of 23 (3365 views)
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I'm not familiar with the contradiction. [In reply to] Can't Post

I understand that there are parts of Myths Transformed that cannot be used without throwing out most of The Silmarillion -- like the rejection of the Two Trees story -- but I wasn't aware that this particular discussion of what would happen to mortals in Aman was so hard to reconcile with the rest of what Tolkien wrote. So if you get a chance, I would be interested in quotes and citations that you believe contradict what he wrote in Myths Transformed.

Of course the fact that Bilbo and Frodo and Sam went to Aman might be considered contradictory, but in my own mind I always resolved that by the fact that the ringbearers had proven their ability to resist temptation, and therefore that they would not fight death. This is especially true since Bilbo and Sam were near death when they took the trip, and Frodo was wounded and weary of life.


acheron
Gondor


Jan 29 2010, 5:35am

Post #9 of 23 (3343 views)
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Reply thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Manwe sends "messengers" to Numenor to attempt to answer the questions. Who are these "messengers"?

Good question. It reminds me of the Istari, but there's no indication that they visited Numenor in the Second Age. I think the messengers were likely members of the Eldar, who for a long time continued to travel back and forth to Numenor. But it's possible that one or more of the Maiar came to Numenor, although not, I think, in bodies of human flesh like the Istari. They could have taken human form, though, or whatever form they chose.


I infer from the text that the messengers were not Eldar, but maybe that is just me. First, "the Eldar reported these words to the Valar," but then Manwe sends "messengers"... I guess I infer those are two separate groups. Then the quotes from the messengers speak of the Eldar in the third person: "Yet that is to them neither reward nor punishment".

It could be read as coming from the Eldar, I just don't read it that way.


In Reply To
Well, in "Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth" (The Debate of Finrod and Andreth), found in Morgoth's Ring, Tolkien implies that perhaps death was a punishment after all, and that originally man was not destined to die. But perhaps that was a late attempt to make his mythology conform to Catholic orthodoxy. The idea of death as a gift is not orthodox Christianity, but it does bear some resemblance to Jesus' promise of everlasting life, which makes devout Christians happy to martyr themselves. The problem is that Tolkien attempts to fit a New Testament idea (everlasting heavenly life after death) into an Old Testament world (no Christ -- yet). When Beren died, Luthien found him in the Halls of Mandos, and I wonder whether all human spirits waited in the Halls of Mandos for Christ to come and release them, so that they could eventually leave the circles of the world. This would look more like the Catholic notion of Purgatory and Limbo.


Interesting. Letter #153 which I mentioned earlier mentions this as well. "Since 'mortality' is thus represented as a special gift of God to the Second Race of the Children... and not as a punishment for a Fall, you may call that 'bad theology'. So it may be, in the primary world, but it is an imagination capable of elucidating truth, and a legitimate basis of legends." If he did have a later inclination to make the story more closely fit Catholic theology, it seems to have been a change of heart.

For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Jan 29 2010, 9:03am

Post #10 of 23 (3355 views)
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Who wants to life forever? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, maybe one or two do! But if you think about it, maybe the Numenoreans had the best of both worlds. They are mortal, but live for a long time, far longer than any other men. Longer than us as well, at the height of their bliss, the Numenoreans lived for 300-400 years! That means that someone of say, 65, is just leaving their youth! Young whipper snapper.


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 29 2010, 11:30am

Post #11 of 23 (3358 views)
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*pops cork on bottle of bubbly miruvor* Congratulations, the honor is most deserved! [In reply to] Can't Post

Welcome, Curious, you are now Half-Elven! Smile

You won't be required to choose your doom for quite some time, of course. Wink

But it is with great joy and appreciation that we acknowledge your new position here, on these Boards! Cool


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915




Curious
Half-elven


Jan 29 2010, 4:15pm

Post #12 of 23 (3337 views)
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Those last few were a long time coming! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the acknowledgement.


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jan 29 2010, 5:16pm

Post #13 of 23 (3361 views)
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Whoohooo!! Lookit Youuuu!! [In reply to] Can't Post

   



CONGRATULATIONS!!!! You've achieved Half-elvenship :D Your newly-woven cloak and crown are in the throne room over there ;)
Cheers, Curious! How Wonderful!!



sample sample


"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~

I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.



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GaladrielTX
Tol Eressea


Jan 29 2010, 6:28pm

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How funny that it should happen in this thread! / [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~~~

The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.



batik
Tol Eressea


Jan 30 2010, 6:10am

Post #15 of 23 (3396 views)
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a few more... [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you think this was a wise decision on the part of the Valar?
Smile Glad I read thru a few replies before putting the "forbidden fruit" idea out there. Seems very much like that to me. I suppose that is a pretty common training technique. Maybe the Valar doing so was all a part of the bigger picture.

Messengers--"Which of us therefore should envy the others?"
hmmm...who is "us"? Is this another case of that familiar/formal/singular/plural...which was discussed here:
http://newboards.theonering.net/...;;page=unread#unread

What do you think of the idea of death as 'leaving the circles of the world' and being a 'gift'?
That has me thinking of getting off the hamster wheel! And "shuffle[d] off this mortal coil". No longer being confined by the current requirements of human life. Big change--kinda scary!

If you lived for a long time, would you go to death willingly?
If I had outlived my usefulness, my kin, my good health--probably, yes.


Eldy
Tol Eressea


Jan 30 2010, 5:58pm

Post #16 of 23 (3328 views)
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Contradicting quotes [In reply to] Can't Post

Poking around through my books now that I'm home:


Quote
The Silmarillion, Akallabeth
'...For it is not the land of Manwe that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary the soner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast.'
But the King said: 'And does not Earendil, my forefather, live? Or is he not in the land of Aman?'
To which they answered: 'You know that he has a fate apart, and was adjudged to the Firstborn who die not; yet this also is his doom that he can never return again to mortal lands. Whereas you and your peope are not of the Firstborn, but are mortal Men as Iluvatar made you. ... Nor can the Valar take away the gifts of Iluvatar.



This is the single biggest piece of evidence. Also, Tolkien mentions the same idea again in:


Quote
Footnote to Letter 156
This [the idea that taking Aman would confer immortality] was a delusion of course, a Satanic lie. For as emissaries from the Vaar clearly inform him, the Blessed Realm does ot confer imortality. The land is blessed because the Blessed dwell there, not vice versa.



This is the only relevant passage I can find using the index to the Letters. This was written in 1954, some time before Myths Transformed (in 1954), but I am reluctant to cherry-pick Myths Transformed since Tolkien rejected, or at least did not follow through on his re-write. While I generally would go with the later version, MT was such a drastic reconception that I don't like using it as a source very much.

As Christopher Tolkien writes in his introduction to MT, "these writings are to be read with a sense of intellectual and imaginative stress in the face of such a dismantling and reconstitution, believed to be an inescapable necessity, but never to be achieved." Since the vast majority of our information about Arda comes from the more mythological and less scientifically realistic 'constitution' of the mythology, I support using that version. Had Tolkien finished his dismantling and reconstitution of the legendarium I would accept that as superseding the earlier versions, but since he did not I view MT as a curiosity, a glimpse of what might have been, but not as a particularly reliable source of information.


(This post was edited by Eldorion on Jan 30 2010, 6:00pm)


Curious
Half-elven


Jan 31 2010, 1:41am

Post #17 of 23 (3332 views)
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Well, [In reply to] Can't Post

what do you make of "there you would but wither and grow weary the soner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast"? It sounds as if living in Aman would have an effect on mortals, just not the effect they desired. And in Myths Transformed, mortals are still mortal. Just because their bodies no longer age, that doesn't mean they are immortal, as Tolkien explains.

Of course you are free to reject what Tolkien wrote in Myths Transformed. It wasn't part of The Silmarillion. But I think in this case the apparent contradictions can be resolved if you so desire.


Eldy
Tol Eressea


Jan 31 2010, 5:26am

Post #18 of 23 (3316 views)
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I do not understand the quote to mean... [In reply to] Can't Post

...that the bodies of men would be effectively immortal; which is, I believe what the MT passage was saying. The effects on the fea sound similar in both, but the Silmarillion version gives no indication that anything special would happen to the hroa. I get the sense fromtp the passages I quoted that being in Aman would have no lengtgening effects whatsoever, and I don't see how this is a resolvable contradiction.


Curious
Half-elven


Jan 31 2010, 5:33am

Post #19 of 23 (3317 views)
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Fair enough. But I still want to know [In reply to] Can't Post

what you make of "there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast"? That seems to imply that Aman does have an effect on aging, but that Men would age more rapidly, not less. It also seems to imply an effect on both the spirit ("grow weary") and body ("wither").


Eldy
Tol Eressea


Jan 31 2010, 5:50am

Post #20 of 23 (3339 views)
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It makes me think of another passage [In reply to] Can't Post

From The Silmarillion, Of the Ruin of Doriath: "the wise have said that the Silmaril hastened their* end; for the flame of the beauty of Luthien as she wore it was too bright for mortal lands."

*Beren and Luthien's

The light imagery in both quotes is what initially made me think of the comparison, and considering it further I like the comparison even more. Luthien had become mortal at that point, and the Silmaril was too much. Likewise, a mortal in Aman itself would find it too much.

I had not thought of "wither" in the physical sense, but it would certainly make sense. I think it could be a mental descriptor as well though; I really am not sure.


(This post was edited by Eldorion on Jan 31 2010, 5:51am)


sador
Half-elven


Jan 31 2010, 11:14am

Post #21 of 23 (3294 views)
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Do you think this was a wise decision on the part of the Valar?
Haven't you asked about this before? I do't think this decision could be separated from the others, which we've discussed already. It's on package deal.

Maybe there was no good way to handle it, but it does seem as though forbidding Men from even approaching the Undying Lands makes it easy for Sauron to convince the Men that the Valar were hiding something.
There is no good way to handle it. You can't both give an d withold free choice, and once you start being benevolent and not going the whole way, the tempter will say you are hiding something. Perhaps the savage Men are better off.

Who are these "messengers"?

I thought they are Eldar themselves. Why could Arminas and Gelmir be messengers from Ulmo, and the Eldar of Tol Eressea or Valinor not be messengers of Manwe?
I also think the last sentence shows that these are Eldar; or do you think the Numenoreans were envying the Maiar? Or that the Maiar were tied to the Circles of the World?

Quote


The Eldar, you say, are unpunished, and even those who rebelled do not die. Yet that is to them neither reward nor punishment, but the fulfilment of their being. They cannot escape, and are bound to this world, never to leave it so long as it lasts, for its life is theirs. And you are punished for the rebellion of Men, you say, in which you had small part, and so it is that you die. But that was not at first appointed for a punishment. Thus you escape, and leave the world, and are not bound to it, in hope or in weariness. Which of us therefore should envy the others?



do they just mean this type of 'psychological' weariness, or is something more 'spiritual' or 'magical' at work there?
FarFromHome is right. There is no true difference between the two.

What do you think of the idea of death as 'leaving the circles of the world' and being a 'gift'?

It is intrinsic to Tolkien.
In Author of the Century, Tom Shippey suggests it was an idea he tried to persuade himself was ture - refering to the sentence in Of Fairy Stories about the Human myths of the Elves - mentioning the three great interracial allainces, in which an Elvish woman "escaped to mortality". However, in The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, Arwen seems to find it very difficult to accept.

If you lived for a long time, would you go to death willingly?
I don't know. What's the qualitative difference between five hundred years and eighty? Even twenty years might be considered a long lifetime (for instance, if you are a third-hand car Wink).
I guess once one becomes weary of this life, s/he can embrace death. Thankfully, I am not yet at this stage.

"Why should we not go to Avallónë and greet there our friends?" - the Númenóreans.



PhantomS
Rohan


Feb 7 2010, 4:07am

Post #22 of 23 (3302 views)
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. Do you think this was a wise decision on the part of the Valar? Middle Earth was no place for the Edain at this point and Beleriand, their home was now gone forever. The only mistake the Valar made was making Numenor so close to the Undying Lands, instead of hallowing it out and making it closer to Lindon and the remaining Noldor. It seems however that Manwe and Mandos made the decision, and that Ulmo influenced it - the hand of Eru Illuvatar is there in evidence.

Who are these "messengers"?

Most likely Elves from Eressea, whom the Numenoreans were pretty close with. The Valar would not have sent one of the Noldor or Vanyar, who have little in common with the sea-faring Numenoreans.

do they just mean this type of 'psychological' weariness, or is something more 'spiritual' or 'magical' at work there?

The Undying Lands are just that; nothing ever dies there unless it is killed, and that is unlikely. Mortal Men cannot outlast even the flora over there and will not be able to cope with a place that exudes life unending when they themselves get sick, get hurt, get hungry and so forth.

What do you think of the idea of death as 'leaving the circles of the world' and being a 'gift'?

Men are meant to be free from the cycle of disappointment the Elves in Middle Earth have to live with, seeing the world continually die out, or the monotonous and mundane life in Aman. Eru clearly had something else in mind when He created two Children with varying characteristics.

Seeing death as a gift , as Elros and his heirs did makes it the ultimate comfort- which is why Morgoth didin't just kill Hurin and Turin but tormented them their entire lives to deny them the proper comforts of death. Hurin himself spat in Morgoth's face and said he was going to a place even Morgoth claimed there was nothing.

If you lived for a long time, would you go to death willingly?

The Numenoreans knew when it was time to go, it was when their bodies finally decided to grow old and frail and their minds began to drift into dotage. Aragorn says to Arwen that he doesn't want her having to endure him in an old, feeble state, which must have been pathetic. Tar-Antanamir saw his end coming but refused to accept it, which went against the idea of giving a gift back. A powerful and supposedly wise king is still a fool if he dies as one. If one feels their hundreds of years of life have accomplished much, then their death is not really a bad thing. If one feels like they'd been cheated for hundreds of years, death is not welcome; Elves live forever but tend to accomplish little that lasts compared to Men and Dwarves who live for hundreds- yet Antanamir thinks that he should have his entire lifespan to accomplish something, rather than just handing it over to his son (who ironically got his Sceptre grabbed from him).

Compared to Theoden and Eorl, who died Old and Young respectively and in battle, one can see that the Numenoreans were allowed to live their lives to the fullest and to die in peace without pain. Denethor thought he was going to die but apparently was not, and was clearly not showing signs of it (reflecting old Numenor, in fact). Numenoreans didn't need to chase death or look for it in battle, they could feel it coming and it came slowly to them so they could prepare. I'd say that was an awesome gift if used correctly.

The one exception here is poor Tar-Palantir, who probably died willingly but without hope and happiness- more like "take me now, please", which is really sad.



Twit
Lorien

Feb 10 2010, 1:16pm

Post #23 of 23 (3311 views)
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Do you think this was a wise decision on the part of the Valar?

No, but as others [FarFrom Home] have said, it had to happen in the general myth. It also shows that no matter how 'great' they are, they are not infallible.


do they just mean this type of 'psychological' weariness, or is something more 'spiritual' or 'magical' at work there?

hmm. I took it as the human condition simply couldn't take living there for long. I'm not sure many people would in fact be content to watch the Valar go about their business knowing that, ultimately, you will wither and die.

What do you think of the idea of death as 'leaving the circles of the world' and being a 'gift'?

I like this idea - and [forgive me, I'm not at all knowledgeable about religion] actually, in the case of illness and pain, or just good old old age, it is a blesssing. Being put to death is only bad because you would be told that you will suffer in the afterlife.

If you lived for a long time, would you go to death willingly?


If I was a Numenorean, yes. And I hope that I get to 'choose' when to die when I'm older. My Grandmother certainly seemed to choose her moment - it was as if she decided, right that's enough, I'm ready. And off she went, when my Aunt, who had been with her for hours, left the room. Almost like she was waiting for her to leave.


I guess Dreamdeer would have a lot to say on this subject.

 
 

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