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TORn History Scavenger Hunt : Greenbooks Questions and Answers

Magpie
Immortal


Nov 23 2009, 4:16am

Post #1 of 13 (822 views)
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TORn History Scavenger Hunt : Greenbooks Questions and Answers Can't Post



And yet there lie in Denethor's hoards many records that few now can read, even of the lore-masters,
for their scripts and tongues have become dark to later men.



This is a section of TORn that I used for quite a time after the movies came out. If I was trying to answer someone's question, I often came to Q&A to see if TORn already had. If so, I would link the person here. I'd love to hear if anyone else ever dug around in the Q&A's and what they thought of them.

Here's the home page for the Questions and Answers section of Greenbooks. The dates provided below indicate when that Q&A was posted.


1. John & Tasha Miller wondered:
If Samwise hated Bill Ferny so much, (bad enough to waste an apple, by throwing it at him) why then did he name the pony that he bought from Ferny, (the one he loved so much) Bill?
What was Quickbeam's opinion on this? 09/05/99



2. Where did Ostadan get the idea that baby Dwarves have beards? 09/01/01



3. Ostadan weighed in on what question prompted by the Battle of the Five Armies scene in The Hobbit? 04/01/02



4. Do Tolkien's Elves have pointed ears? What did Carl F. Hostetter have to offer on this subject? 09/12/99



5. How does Ostadan define the word 'uncouth' and how is it used in LOTR? 05/01/03




Happy Hunting. :-)





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Aunt Dora Baggins
Half-elven


Nov 24 2009, 7:34pm

Post #2 of 13 (441 views)
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Not taking time to post answer, but I enjoyed looking them up. [In reply to] Can't Post

Boy, a person could get lost wandering about reading that stuff. What fun! It might be fun sometime to bring up one of those topics along with the "answer" and discuss it further. I sure felt like I had some rebuttals to offer to some of them. Or at least some additions. ;-)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Magpie
Immortal


Nov 24 2009, 8:13pm

Post #3 of 13 (496 views)
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I was actually waiting... [In reply to] Can't Post

...for someone here to offer their *own* answer to one of those question or to argue a point in one of the archived given answers. It may still happen. :-)

I kind of chose ones that didn't have clear answers but only offered opinions for that reason. Not that I didn't want people correcting or contesting an answer but just to make it more of a simple scavenger hunt (and therefore keep it a bit lighter).


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Aunt Dora Baggins
Half-elven


Nov 25 2009, 12:21am

Post #4 of 13 (442 views)
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Well, the one I was thinking of wasn't one you asked about. [In reply to] Can't Post

I ran across it while looking yours up, and I don't remember where it was now. It had to do with what Aragorn's memory of Moria was that was an "evil" memory. The answer given was kind of vague, with a hint that Aragorn might have run into a Balrog, as good a guess as any. I wanted to add that in the draft version, Aragorn was a hobbit with wooden shoes, and his name was Trotter, and the reason he wore wooden shoes was that he had been captured in Moria and his feet were tortured. Even though his persona changed completely, a lot of the dialog remained intact, as well as, oddly, a lot of his character. So whatever happened to Aragorn probably had nothing to do with his feet, but we do know what happened to Trotter. :-)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on Nov 25 2009, 12:21am)


weaver
Half-elven

Nov 25 2009, 4:54am

Post #5 of 13 (435 views)
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that was a fun trip... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, I had totally forgotten about the Q&A part of the site -- sheesh, the people here, they think of everything! Questions and Answers!!

Here are the results of my happy hunting...

1. Sam never called Ferny by his first name, so that seems to mean he didn't associate the name Bill with him; maybe Sam just liked the name Bill, or named the pony after Bill Clinton, or Bill Cosby, or Bill Board, or Bill of Rights, or Bill of Sale, or Bill Me Later...

2. Because Tolkien said they had beards all of their lives...how very testosteroney of them! Those dwarf women must take some interesting prenatal vitamins.

3. What would have happened to the Ring if Bilbo had died while wearing it when he got knocked out during the Battle -- now, this sounds suspiciously like a bad math word problem to me -- as in "if Bilbo was unconscious for four days while wearing the Ring, how long would it take for his bathtub to drain?"

4. An obscure note in pencil from Tolkien that said the Elvish word for Ears means "Spock-like".

5. By its older meaning, which is based on couth meaning "known" so it means "unknown" -- why, if I were a philologist, I would have "couthed" what "uncouth" meant! And here I thought Radagast just thought the Shire was pretty seedy!

Cheers, Magpie -- thanks for the entertaining trip back through time!

Weaver





dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Nov 28 2009, 2:20am

Post #6 of 13 (476 views)
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Oh, no... [In reply to] Can't Post

I just tried to access any part of the old site, and nothing in "archives" is accessible, not even the pages from the previous quizzes!

I hope this is just a temporary problem...will try again later...Unsure


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915




fairelvenlady
Rivendell


Nov 30 2009, 9:33pm

Post #7 of 13 (449 views)
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Same here... [In reply to] Can't Post

I tried accessing both today and on Saturday to no avail. :-(

What happened when Legolas and Aragorn road with Eomer in the van.
Aragorn: Eomer, Legolas has his bow on my side of the seat!
Legolas: Well Aragorn keeps slapping me while practicing his "heroic" poses.
Eomer: Don't make me turn this van around.

,,.,


fairelvenlady
Rivendell


Dec 4 2009, 4:09pm

Post #8 of 13 (444 views)
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Aha! Now I can answer the questions! [In reply to] Can't Post

And there was much rejoicing when I discovered that I could access the Old TORn site and answer these questions. I am so enjoying the scavenger hunt!


1. John & Tasha Miller wondered:
If Samwise hated Bill Ferny so much, (bad enough to waste an apple, by throwing it at him) why then did he name the pony that he bought from Ferny, (the one he loved so much) Bill?
What was Quickbeam's opinion on this? 09/05/99
That Sam named the pony Bill merely because he liked the name and not because of his (the pony's) former owner.



2. Where did Ostadan get the idea that baby Dwarves have beards? 09/01/01
"
For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives" (Okay that wireds me out somewhat,and at the same time reminds me of a commercial for a credit card that involved a bearded kid.)

3. Ostadan weighed in on what question prompted by the Battle of the Five Armies scene in The Hobbit? 04/01/02
"Q: What happened if a mortal dies when he's wearing the One ring? In The Hobbit, during the Battle of Five Armies, Bilbo received a rock on the head and lost consciousness while he was wearing the Ring. When he woke up a couple days after, people were searching for him but he was invisible because of the Ring. If he had died there, would he have been invisible forever and the Ring too?"



4. Do Tolkien's Elves have pointed ears? What did Carl F. Hostetter have to offer on this subject? 09/12/99
That the elven word lasse is related to the words for ear, listen, and leaf. Leaves are pointy ergo so are ears, plus the entry on this says that the Quendenian ears were pointier than something or other.


5. How does Ostadan define the word 'uncouth' and how is it used in LOTR? 05/01/03
"
While the word 'uncouth' in modern English means 'crude', 'rustic', or 'unrefined', it also can mean 'unknown' or 'unfamiliar', which is its earlier meaning." It is used by Radagast when refering to the Shire.




What happened when Legolas and Aragorn road with Eomer in the van.
Aragorn: Eomer, Legolas has his bow on my side of the seat!
Legolas: Well Aragorn keeps slapping me while practicing his "heroic" poses.
Eomer: Don't make me turn this van around.

,,.,


Magpie
Immortal


Dec 4 2009, 8:02pm

Post #9 of 13 (413 views)
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I'll be posting the medallions for this hunt today. [In reply to] Can't Post

If the thread falls to the second page before I get a chance to do that... and you're interested in collecting one... either check back by visiting the 2nd page or watching the thread (button on top right of this post).


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Magpie
Immortal


Dec 4 2009, 10:19pm

Post #10 of 13 (464 views)
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Answers and Medallions - open when finished with the hunt [In reply to] Can't Post

Here, after a restatement of each question, are links to the entry in the Question and Answers archive and a quote of that entry.



1. John & Tasha Miller wondered:
If Samwise hated Bill Ferny so much, (bad enough to waste an apple, by throwing it at him) why then did he name the pony that he bought from Ferny, (the one he loved so much) Bill?
What was Quickbeam's opinion on this? 09/05/99

http://greenbooks.theonering.net/...599.html#billthepony

Q: If Samwise hated Bill Ferny so much, (bad enough to waste an apple, by throwing it at him) why then did he name the pony that he bought from Ferny, (the one he loved so much) Bill?

-John & Tasha Miller

A: First of all, your question lies more in the realm of subjective interpretation than it does in hard black & white facts. But my best interpretation is this: If you look closely at the text, Samwise does not actually refer to Bill Ferny as ‘Bill’… it seems he was using the Hobbit-ish practice of referring to an individual by the informal means of last-name-only, ‘Ferny.’ Perhaps because of his contempt for Bill Ferny we never hear Samwise give the courtesy of addressing him by first name. Several chapters later, before the Fellowship makes their departure from Rivendell, Samwise names the pony. Certainly not out of memory of Bill Ferny, but maybe because he was just fond of the name ‘Bill.’

-Quickbeam


2. Where did Ostadan get the idea that baby Dwarves have beards? 09/01/01

http://greenbooks.theonering.net/...0101.html#babybeards

Q: I was reading some different questions when I came upon a remark made by Turgon in the Q&A that Dwarf women had beards. Where does it say that they have beards? I always wondered that but I didn't think they would.

–Aredhel Ar-Feiniel

A: I have always wondered this myself, never having taken the time to do an exhaustive search for the appropriate quotation. The quotation I already knew about runs thus:

""[Dwarf-women] are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other people cannot tell them apart."

That one doesn’t specify, but Ostadan has supplied me with more material, which I believe is also the source for Turgon’s previous Answer. Ostadan says:

"Back in April, I wrote to Quickbeam:

The passage in Return of the King says that "[Dwarf-women] are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other people cannot tell them apart." … In Peoples of Middle Earth there is draft material from that Appendix, and the draft version of this passage says that "There is no difference in substance in the present text, except for the statements that they are never forced to wed against their will (which ‘would of course be impossible'), and that they have beards." Why JRRT chose to omit this information cannot be guessed.

In the post-LotR Quenta Silmarillion is a section containing "the words of Pengolod concerning the Naugrim" (pp. 203+ of The War of the Jewels, US Edition at least). In paragraph 5, we learn that "no Man nor Elf has ever seen a beardless Dwarf–unless he were shaven in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame than of many other hurts that to us would seem more deadly. For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike; nor indeed can their womenkind be discerned by those of other race, be it in feature or in gait or in voice, nor in any wise save this: that they go not to war, and seldom save at direst need issue from their deep bowers and halls."

Awwwwwwww, it's a little baby dwarf-girl!! And look, her beard's the same color as her Daddy's!"

Thanks, Ostadan!

–Anwyn


3. Ostadan weighed in on what question prompted by the Battle of the Five Armies scene in The Hobbit? 04/01/02

http://greenbooks.theonering.net/.../040102.html#youdied

Q: What happened if a mortal dies when he's wearing the One ring? In The Hobbit, during the Battle of Five Armies, Bilbo received a rock on the head and lost consciousness while he was wearing the Ring. When he woke up a couple days after, people were searching for him but he was invisible because of the Ring. If he had died there, would he have been invisible forever and the Ring too?

–Narsil

A: An opportunity for sheer speculation. Well, it is not certain that someone wearing the One Ring could actually be killed – part of the Rings' effect on mortals is to keep the Fëa, or soul, from departing from the world. One might speculate that even if the material body were utterly destroyed (e.g., by fire) while the wearer were in the shadow-world, the shadow body would remain (perhaps forever experiencing that final burning of the body), taking shape only when clothed, like the Nazgûl; in effect, the destruction of the body would hasten the "fading" of the wearer. On the other hand, if it were possible to kill the wearer of the Ring, that would mean that the Fëa did indeed depart the world, and it seems logical to infer that what remained, a soulless corpse, could no more be made invisible than if you put the Ring on a stone statue.

–Ostadan


4. Do Tolkien's Elves have pointed ears? What did Carl F. Hostetter have to offer on this subject? 09/12/99

http://greenbooks.theonering.net/...1299.html#pointyears

Q: Do Tolkien's Elves have pointed ears? (I've never found any reference to this in any of his writings, and many artists portray them without pointed ears...)

–Quinton Carr

A: This is a tough question that has baffled many Tolkien-readers for years and years. The only evidence there is, and it can be interpreted in several ways, comes from a letter Tolkien wrote to the American publishers of The Hobbit, sometime around March 1938. This letter, a response to a request for some drawings of hobbits in various attitudes, is published in Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien (Letter no. 27, p. 35). Part of the description reads as follows: "A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and ‘elvish’." The quotes around "elvish" are Tolkien’s own, so what does he mean? Elvish, as in his own Elves? Or "elvish" as in what the recipient of the letter might think of as "elvish"–i.e., a more public idea of "elvish"? I suspect Tolkien meant the latter, but the remarkable thing here is that Tolkien does imply that Hobbits have ears which are "slightly pointed".

–Turgon

Update!

Carl F. Hostetter pointed (no pun intended) us to another consideration that really makes a much stronger case that Tolkien intended his elves to have pointed ears. In "The Etymologies", a very important work for the study of Tolkien's Elvish languages, first published in The Lost Road (1987), the two entries given for the elvish element "las" show that "las", as in the Quenya *lasse, meaning "leaf", is possibly related to "las" meaning "listen", and *lasse meaning "ear". Tolkien wrote: "The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than [?human]" (The reading of the last word is uncertain in the lightly pencilled manuscript.) Fascinating!


5. How does Ostadan define the word 'uncouth' and how is it used in LOTR? 05/01/03

http://greenbooks.theonering.net/...03.html#radagast0503
Q: When Saruman sent Radagast the Brown to seek out Gandalf, during their conversation he referred to the name "Shire" as uncouth. Do we know why? Was it equal to some taboo in the common tongue? Do we know what the word "Shire" means?

–Nicholas Payne
A:

While the word 'uncouth' in modern English means 'crude', 'rustic', or 'unrefined', it also can mean 'unknown' or 'unfamiliar', which is its earlier meaning. The word 'cuth' was the Old English past participle of 'cunnan' meaning: "to know." Of course, Tolkien would have been very familiar with the older meaning of this word. The word 'shire' is an ordinary English word for a county or territorial division. In the United States, it only occurs as part of names like Devonshire, derived from England. It is worth observing that Radagast did not recognize this strange name as a word in the Common Speech -- he takes it to be a proper name like "Rohan," and Gandalf corrects him by replying, The Shire." In this, Radagast is not unlike modern Americans, at least, whose only acquaintance with the word is through Tolkien's writings. It is not uncommon, for example, for visitors to an American 'Renaissance Faire' to hear the actors referring to 'their shire' and conclude that this is some fanciful reference to hobbits!

–Ostadan


This last question addressed a word meaning I hadn't examined before. It reminds me of the 'revelation' I had during one rereading of LOTR with the word 'outlandish'. We use that word today to mean something akin to 'outrageous'. But the original means something more simply as 'other'. That is, it is something outside of the land in which we reside. The word is used in the early chapters of LOTR quite a few times. One group uses it towards another and that other group uses it toward the first right back. They are all distrustful of anything that is 'not them'. So, it pointed out to me (along with lots of other similar words) of how we so quickly ascribe negative traits towards someone that is 'not us'.

Anyhow... here are the medallions for this hunt. Participation in the hunt takes many forms and if you only read through the archives, you participated. :-)







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dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Dec 9 2009, 11:42am

Post #11 of 13 (409 views)
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Oh, the weather outside is icing... [In reply to] Can't Post

...and there's a delayed opening at the school where I work, and I'm not heading there anyway until this band of ice has changed to rain, so this is the perfect opportunity to relax for a while and once more browse the archives! Smile

1. If Samwise hated Bill Ferny so much, (bad enough to waste an apple, by throwing it at him) why then did he name the pony that he bought from Ferny, (the one he loved so much) Bill?

What was Quickbeam's opinion on this? 09/05/99


Good question! As Quickbeam noted, Sam never called Bill Ferny "Bill"...and since there's no record of any name being given the beast until Rivendell, he may have simply been fond of the name.

Or, now that I've thought about it, perhaps he named him after Bill Huggins the Troll, just as a reminder of the time he was able to bring a bit of laughter into Frodo's life after he'd received the Morgul-wound!


2. Where did Ostadan get the idea that baby Dwarves have beards? 09/01/01

From HoME XI, "The War of the Jewels", where it is stated that Dwarves have beards from birth.


3. Ostadan weighed in on what question prompted by the Battle of the Five Armies scene in The Hobbit? 04/01/02

Eew, what an idea, what would happen if one "died" while wearing the Ring! I tend to prefer his speculation that a "shadow-body" would remain, since one's own body would fade anyway after a long time.


4.Do Tolkien's Elves have pointed ears? What did Carl F. Hostetter have to offer on this subject? 09/12/99

Cousin Carl (yes, we are indeed sixth cousins twice removed - how's that for hobbity genealogy!) found a tidbit in the Etymologies which showed the same root-word for "leaf" and "ear", and a notation about pointed and leaf-shaped "Quendian" ears.

And, of course, there's that quote from Letters about Hobbit vs. Elven ears!


5. How does Ostadan define the word 'uncouth' and how is it used in LOTR? 05/01/03

Ah, the "uncouth" name of "Shire"! Laugh I had always assumed it to mean "rustic", but of course Tolkien would have known it also meant "unknown", and thus made another philological jest.

Another example of how reading Tolkien expands one's vocabulary!

Thanks, Magpie, these are such fun to browse through...I do hope that some day the link to all these "goodies" is made more prominent on the home page!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915




Magpie
Immortal


Dec 9 2009, 11:57am

Post #12 of 13 (394 views)
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wow... how did you ever figure out the cousin connection? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


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dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Dec 9 2009, 12:48pm

Post #13 of 13 (441 views)
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Back in a precursor to the "Second Cousins Once Removed" threads [In reply to] Can't Post

This one here, in fact - the last post of a short subthread where he and I discuss our common ancestry, from one family of Mennonites who emigrated in the late 1700's.

It's interesting: there were two Hochstetler families who arrived around the same time, and it seems that anyone nowadays with any variation of that name in their family tree is descended from one or the other; and "our" family has a published book of descendants, so it's fairly easy to figure out the relationships.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915



 
 

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