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OhioHobbit
Gondor
Oct 28 2009, 10:54am
Post #1 of 6
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***FOTR EE APPENDICES DISCUSSION: Visual Effects-Weta Digital***(part 2)
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Fellowship of the Ring EE, Disk 4, Visual Effects, Weta Digital.
Randy Cook, Weta Animation Designer & Supervisor:
“The digital doubles were used, you know, in coming down those ridiculous steps, you know, ridiculous in their pitch. They’re like a Mayan pyramid, and the concept of a Mayan pyramid is, you know, it’s very embarrassing if they throw the corpses of their sacrifices down the stairs and they stop mid way! That just wrecks everybody’s afternoon! So, they build them so that the corpses will get all the way down there. Same thing with actors running down the set built like that, except the actors aren’t corpses yet. You don’t want them to become corpses, right? We just sort of took the risk away.”
Barrie Osborne, Producer:
“A really cool technique that Weta developed is this hand held scanner that they found that had been being used by the Meat Board in New Zealand to scan carcasses for some grading purposes.”
Jon Labrie – Weta Chief Technical Officer:
The first thing that they had to do was they actually went out and used our 3D laser scanning system to scan the faces of the actors that were going to be used as digital doubles.
After the digital doubles were created, they used motion capture to use the motions of the actual actors to control the motions of their digital doubles. An example of this is The Bridge of Khazad-dum. The camera panning up and over the bridge was done with a miniature, but the characters running across the bridge were digital doubles. Each actor running across the bridge was motion captured separately and then they were all added together in the scene.
The last thing that they talk about is MASSIVE. This is a computer program that was created by Stephen Regelous to generate realistically behaving computer graphic crowds. In Fellowship of the Ring, MASSIVE was used for the armies in the prolog.
Stephen Regelous, Weta Crowd Software Developer & Supervisor:
“There is Artificial Intelligence which is basically an attempt at emulating the processes of the human mind, but there is also Artificial Life, which is really more of an inspiration for MASSIVE, which is using natural processes to create life-like results. In MASSIVE we try to achieve natural crowd-like behavior, not by trying to control a whole crowd, but by creating one agent who will react naturally to the environment. We call them agents because it’s a common term in Artificial Intelligence for a decision-making unit. Then when we put thousands of them together they will give us an emergent crowd behavior that is also natural without us having to say how that crowd has to behave.”
If you would like some more information on MASSIVE, look here.
Jim Rygiel, Visual Effects Supervisor:
“Film 1, I think you pretty much ask anybody in the facility, and it was just pain, it was just pure pain. The pleasure kind of comes on that last day when you kind of look at it all and you see the film for the first time. It’s like, Oh My God, this all works, it all comes together!”
Randy Cook:
“The sense of commitment on the picture overall, where the picture ceases to be a really good effects reel and becomes an experience, I think that’s the test of a lot of landmark films and I think that this is going to be one of them. You are seeing a lot of elements that have never been really put together at this level before. Or not! Maybe it’ll stink, I don’t know!”
Gray Horsefield, Weta Conceptual Digital Visualization:
“Instead of working on the latest effect, the latest technology to break the boundaries, it was nice to be using the tricks that we’ve learned in our trade, the things that we know how to do, and use them as artist tools. So, it was nice to just be delivering Middle-earth. It’s been quite a joy just getting into the nuts and bolts of building something so cool. I mean, with material like this, you know, it’s hard to go wrong.”
Cool! So ends the chapter on Weta Digital.
How did the digital doubles work for you?
When you first saw FOTR, did the armies in the prolog stand out as being computer graphics?
How well do you think the Appendicies did on presenting Weta Digital?
Other thoughts?
Movie Technical Discussion -- Index
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weaver
Half-elven
Oct 28 2009, 1:53pm
Post #2 of 6
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I love Randy Cook's Mayan monologue...
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...he could do stand-up comedy, but probably only special effects people would get half of the jokes...
Yes, the whole stairs part of Moria was ridiculous in a lot of ways -- but I really love all of it anyway; I always think of one reviewer quote about Jackson's work -- it was something like, "well, say what you want about the guy, he certainly has nerve!" The way that whole stair collapses into the pit at the end is a great pay off.
The run across the bridge by the digital doubles is also a lot of fun; I now see that part of what makes it work is that those little guys were modeled after and running in the same postures, etc. as the actors. In that way, they are somehow more believable than the scale doubles running in other scenes, which don't run in the same way as the "real hobbits".
As an aside, I'll say that I have a real phobia about driving across bridges, so this shot is really hard for me to watch! I wish I had my own digital double to get me across the bridge to Canada around here...
Thanks for the links to your prior discussion, and to the links in that discussion which led me back to the official moviesite, where they had those great features on Massive. I ended up on the screen where you could do your own Massive simulation -- you can populate the screen with little orc or elven attackers or defenders. I staged my very own battle! It was fun seeing all the green arrows take out the blue ones, though I really felt sorry for that last Elf when all the orcs I made surrounded him. He gave a great last stand, though!
And now, of course, they have improved Massive and other digitial effects even more -- so I imagine these guys will have a lot of fun with the Battle of the Five Armies in The Hobbit.
Weaver
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OhioHobbit
Gondor
Oct 28 2009, 4:16pm
Post #3 of 6
(291 views)
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The way that whole stair collapses into the pit at the end is a great pay off.
I don’t know where I heard it, one of the Appendices or Commentaries, but someone commented that when they saw the collapse of the stair they thought that Peter had blown it because he reached a climax too soon, then they saw the Balrog scene. I thought that the collapsing stair was spectacular!
As an aside, I'll say that I have a real phobia about driving across bridges, so this shot is really hard for me to watch!
What a coincidence, Alcarcalime has that same phobia and also has trouble watching that scene. I think that I probably have an average fear of heights, but I can’t imagine myself running across that narrow bridge with no rail or even curb. A Balrog on my tail might be a good incentive, though!
I ended up on the screen where you could do your own Massive simulation - you can populate the screen with little orc or elven attackers or defenders.
Wow! I don’t know how it will work on my dial-up, but I have got to check that out! I haven’t been back there in a long time. That sounds so cool!
Thanks, weaver!
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weaver
Half-elven
Oct 28 2009, 5:04pm
Post #4 of 6
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that was Sir Ian McK's story, I think...
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He was worried that Gandalf's Balrog on the Bridge moment would be overshadowed by the collapsing stair -- until he saw the Balrog scene. And then he was back to admiring Jackson's "nerve" again...(I think his comments are from the cast commentary track on the FOTR DVD).
The more I think about it, I really think that part of what makes the Balrog work so well is that we've had all of these big epic things building up to it -- the Watcher, the Cave Troll Battle, the surrounded by a 1000 orcs moment, the collapsing stairs, etc. Everything is just ramped up so high that by the time you get to the Balrog, you are ready for something really big and bad to show up. After everything else, why, it just seems perfectly natural and believable that there could be such a thing as a giant half molten fire demon hanging around in that cave, wanting to kill you.
Tell Alcarcalime she has my sympathy -- in my rural area, there are lots of bridges you have to go over -- I have these very strange routes that I take to many places, just to avoid crossing some of them! I would have had to be carried across the Bridge of Khazad-dum. Preferably by Aragorn.
I have a friend who was driving somewhere and right before she was to cross this huge bridge, it collapsed and killed a lot of people. She was literally in the car at the edge of the span, waiting to drive onto it when it fell.
Weaver
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Nov 1 2009, 4:35am
Post #5 of 6
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"We call them agents..." Shades of Matrix!
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The agents in that film were Massive, fersher. One complete unit acting independently... with one going rogue on them. Great Flick!!
IIRC, Peter paid for that Massive program to be developed out of his own pocket... discussed int he commentaries.
When I found out that the characters on the stairs and the bridge were digital, I was so stunned! Especially when they're running across the bridge. They each moved authentically! I still watch that whole segment in awe... and it's one of my favourite segments created for the films. The Stairs and the Bridge. OMG... stunning!
Massive so works for me! What I laugh at is other conversations about how well it works to have each of those "agents" with independent actions and reactions so realistic that during some of those "massive" fight scenes... some of the "agents" turn tale and run the other way!!! *snigger*
I love those guys at Weta! They worked miracles and delighted with the rest of us that it all worked :D Brilliant!
This was a great look at Weta's magic weavers, OhioHobbit! Thanks so much :D
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
(This post was edited by grammaboodawg on Nov 1 2009, 4:39am)
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OhioHobbit
Gondor
Nov 1 2009, 2:07pm
Post #6 of 6
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Peter made a good judgment call on that one. It worked out well for him, it worked out well for Weta, it worked well for the movies, and it worked well for Stephen Regelous. I am in awe of Regelous and Massive and would love to know the secrets of how that program works.
I hadn’t thought of the “agents” connection before. Neat! 
Thanks, gramma.
Oh, love the flashing Jack-O-Lanterns! 
Movie Technical Discussion -- Index
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