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Screencap of the Day
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Artanis
Rohan


Oct 16 2009, 7:53pm

Post #1 of 30 (350 views)
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Screencap of the Day Can't Post

"Like a morning of pale spring, still clinging to winter's chill."



In what could be mistaken for a tender moment, we have Eowyn and Grima.

1.Something that intrigues me is why Eowyn closes her eyes as Grima strokes her cheek, any ideas why she does this?

2.Based on this one shot alone, do you feel sorry for Grima?

3. I'm often in awe of Eowyn's hair, and this shot is no exception! But, for one in mourning does she look too 'tidy', or perhaps for someone in her position she has learned to have a graceful demeanor even under great stress?

4. Any other comments/thoughts

Hope everyone has enjoyed the SCOD's this week. I found it quite hard to pick just one from today's selection, I sat here for ages just looking and enjoying the pics myself! CrazyLaughCool

Here is a larger version so you can look at 'The Hair'!
http://www.framecaplib.com/...ages/ttt/ttt0486.htm

Artanis


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Oct 17 2009, 12:25am

Post #2 of 30 (188 views)
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Silver-tongued fiend. [In reply to] Can't Post

1.Something that intrigues me is why Eowyn closes her eyes as Grima strokes her cheek, any ideas why she does this?
So desperate for any touch from a man who understands her, she's weakened by the lie that is Grima. She didn't have the skills to save her cousin, she can't shake her uncle out of his premature ageing and her brother has been removed. She is alone, and for several moments is about to give in to Grima's insidious seduction...


2.Based on this one shot alone, do you feel sorry for Grima?
Hell no. He has played his hand masterfully and is the snake about to finally pounce on his weakened and disoriented prey - until Eowyn shows a flare of her former strength once more.

4. Any other comments/thoughts

These two are the dark and the light, the manky and the refined. Evil really doesn't do much for the complexion.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


batik
Tol Eressea


Oct 17 2009, 2:03am

Post #3 of 30 (178 views)
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mourning, pal... chill! [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice SCOD, Artanis.

1.Something that intrigues me is why Eowyn closes her eyes as Grima strokes her cheek, any ideas why she does this?
I think she is very weary and momentarily is weakened/seduced by Grima's nearly poetic words. And there's at least a little potential for what he's saying to be true....closing her eyes to this truth?

2.Based on this one shot alone, do you feel sorry for Grima?

Ummm...sorta...briefly.

3. I'm often in awe of Eowyn's hair, and this shot is no exception! But, for one in mourning does she look too 'tidy', or perhaps for someone in her position she has learned to have a graceful demeanor even under great stress?

Well, you know, good hair and a sense of style can cover up a world of woe.

4. Any other comments/thoughts

thanks for leading this week...Smile


(This post was edited by batik on Oct 17 2009, 2:03am)


frederica bolger
Lorien


Oct 17 2009, 8:21am

Post #4 of 30 (172 views)
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this scene... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I think is one of the best non-scriptural ones! The cheek, to steal Gandalf's words to underline Grima's creepy stalker perceptiveness. [I think it is to do with that idea of fair, cold maidenhood that's not quite in tune with today's times; one couldn't see Ian's Gandalf saying these words with a straight face!] A that moment, they are light and dark, good and evil, but they also deeply connect for a moment over the bleakness of his vision of her.

1. Well, I'm with batik on that one; her closing the eyes is not through seduction, at least not of the bodily kind. She totally retreats into herself and the vision of her future life, trapped, lifeless and loveless. He totally misreads this and think he's getting somewhere with her, that's why he's got that baffled look 'what did I do?' when she turns on him.

2. Poor old Grima. He doesn't get it, does he, for all his brilliant strategies and perceptiveness. He's been trapped and starved of human touch too, and somewhere he probably believes that being together will save them both. But where I feel REALLY sorry for him is when he gets to see what he has done and tears are running down his face.

3. No problem with the hair, as the highest ranking woman she probably has people dedicated to keeping her tidy whatever the circumstance. But this is really missing from the film, isn't it (save in the one 'packing up' scene. We are missing the 'Juliet's nurse' type retainer that goes with this kind of princess character, to cheer her up and say things like 'this Grima fellow's getting ideas above his station, mark my words!'

Rain may fall and wind may blow
And many miles be still to go
But under a tall tree I will lie
And watch the clouds go sailing by.


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Oct 17 2009, 2:30pm

Post #5 of 30 (168 views)
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Feelings... [In reply to] Can't Post


1.Something that intrigues me is why Eowyn closes her eyes as Grima strokes her cheek, any ideas why she does this?
She closes her eyes, it seems to me, not so much in answer to his touch (which comes only at that point), but in answer to what he is saying to her, which is so uncannily true, and which reveals in him , quite unexpectedly, a very real sense of what she is and how she feels; here is the first person who understands her so well...!!!The shock of the surprise, and the sudden comfort such a deep understanding does bring to her, are enough to make her, even if only for a brief moment, forget who it is she is facing, lower her guard and acknowledge without a word that he is absolutely right - and THAT brings about the instant of closeness that emboldens him to touch her cheek.

2.Based on this one shot alone, do you feel sorry for Grima?
Not at all!... This is the best moment he ever had with her, and as you point out quite rightly, this shot could indeed be mistaken for a genuine tender moment... and it almost is, to the extent of this sudden, unexpected and soon broken closeness...

3. I'm often in awe of Eowyn's hair, and this shot is no exception! But, for one in mourning does she look too 'tidy', or perhaps for someone in her position she has learned to have a graceful demeanor even under great stress?
If I remember right, she didn't know her cousin had died, she just discovered it a moment before as she entered the room; so she came with her hair done just as usual; and in this darkened palace where her uncle the King is himself half-dead and danger lurks everywhere, she is so used not to let her feelings out loud, there again her sobs over this new tragedy are kept subdued, and no 'dishevelled hair' will reveal to others her internal agony.
Also, as we see later in the wonderful and powerful EE scene of Théoden's funeral, the Rohirrim, women as men, were not given to very visible expression of their grief...!

4. Any other comments/thoughts
Just now, while considering this question of yours, I saw as in a flash that other shot, in 'Return of the King', when Éowyn is, this time, with Aragorn, as he leaves for the Paths of the Dead; he has just said to her, as kindly as possible, but finally with all the needed clarity, that he doesn't love her; and still, in his very real tenderness and affection for her, he too strokes her cheek... The two are in the same relative position as in this Grima-Éowyn shot.
I never noticed before the parallel between those two scenes; only today, thanks to your Screencap, it literally presented itself to me through the picture itsef! Interesting... Thank you!!!
Good for this poor Éowyn that finally she finds in Faramir the right lover... Oh, is there a scene between the two of them where, in the same position again, he too strokes her cheek, but this time for the good reason at last?! I seem to remember that yes indeed, there is one!!! This becomes really amusing, doesn't it?! I'll have to check as soon as i can...


'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


Artanis
Rohan


Oct 17 2009, 8:09pm

Post #6 of 30 (150 views)
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Yes, [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm glad you raised the point about the contrast between the two, you're absolutely right. And thinking about it, their clothing as well as their hair are in stark contrast to each other. I wonder if visually the effect would have been the same if their 'colours' blended with each other...hmm...really good point.

Artanis


Artanis
Rohan


Oct 17 2009, 8:16pm

Post #7 of 30 (145 views)
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LOL [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, that is so true, you can be falling apart on the inside, but look like you have it all together on the outside!!

I had asked my husband why he thought Eowyn had closed her eyes, and at first he said. perhaps because of 'longing' affection, and then he changed his mind and thought perhaps it was her repulsion of Grima that made her close her eyes because she was 'seething' on the inside and just barely keeping herself together, therefore the eyes closing might be more out of anger and to block Grima out. I can think of a few times where ive been so frustrated/mad at what someone has told me that I've closed my eyes.

Artanis


Artanis
Rohan


Oct 17 2009, 8:22pm

Post #8 of 30 (147 views)
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I love [In reply to] Can't Post

the idea of light and dark, good and evil. Yes, retreats in to herself, and good point about his response soon after, he obviously misread the eyes too!!

LOL, would love an old nurse to come to Eowyn and say 'Mark my words' , Laugh

Artanis


Artanis
Rohan


Oct 17 2009, 8:28pm

Post #9 of 30 (147 views)
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Great [In reply to] Can't Post

description of that scene. And yes thats spot on, internal agony, poor Eowyn.Unsure

I shall have to take a quick look at the ROTK shot you mention with Aragorn and Faramir, I vaguely remember them, it will be interesting to take a look, thanks for bringing them up!

Artanis


weaver
Half-elven

Oct 17 2009, 9:33pm

Post #10 of 30 (150 views)
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She really, really needed "somebody" to acknowledge her pain and struggle... [In reply to] Can't Post

It's like she "drinks in" Grima's words about her, to me -- she was really needing somebody to recognize what was going on with her, and when Grima, of all people, does it, it throws her for a loop.

I think closing her eyes was kind of an instintive thing -- to shut him out for a minute -- so that she could get the benefit of his words, without having to associate him with them.

Then, when he makes that move on her, she sort of "wakes up" and is angry -- because she recognizes that Grima used those words just to manipulate and use her, rather than out of any real concern for her.

Great, great scene, on many levels. Thanks!

Weaver





weaver
Half-elven

Oct 17 2009, 9:53pm

Post #11 of 30 (157 views)
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touching Eowyn's face... [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice catch on how both Grima and Aragorn use a similar, physical way to connect with Eowyn..Aragorn is careful, though, to do it after he's told her the truth, so she will be clear that his gesture is one of support and caring, that there's not romantic intent behind it. Grima, on the other hand, uses his connection with her to try to lead her toward intimacy with him, rather than away from it. Similar gestures, but very different motivations and intents.

I don't think Faramir does touch her cheek in the films, he reaches for her hand instead. She responds by grasping his, leaning her head against his shoulder, and then he rests his head on hers.

So now you have me thinking that both Aragorn and Grima fail, ultimately, to reach her concern, and with manipulation. They touch her, but not in a way where she can "reach back". Only Faramir does that, he's the one to finally connect with her in the right way.

And haven't seen you for awhile, Mae -- welcome back!

Weaver





Lily Fairbairn
Half-elven


Oct 18 2009, 3:03pm

Post #12 of 30 (151 views)
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Eowyn and Faramir [In reply to] Can't Post

I just checked the frame caps on this (thank you, Reera the Red!) and yes, he does take her hand. I can't tell by the picture whether she closes her eyes as she leans up against him, but I seem to remember she does. (Gee, maybe I should get out the DVDs...)

I think the way Faramir looks at her is the equivalent of touching her face. Maybe third time's the charm -- first Grima's poisoned touch (perhaps she closes her eyes to imagine for one moment it's not him, it's a true lover), then Aragorn's affectionate but also pitying touch (no wonder she makes up her mind to go out and kill!), and finally Faramir, Mr. Right.

I've always been touched (pun intended Smile) by the way *he* closes his eyes as he leans his cheek against her head, and how all the tension flows out of him at last, the same way she seems to finally surrender her angst and relax against him. Somehow David and Miranda managed to convey the entire chapter from the book in what, one minute's screen time? Not that I wouldn't love to see them actually play the scene from the book.

* * * * * * *
Do we walk in legends or on the green earth in the daylight?

A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!


Goldberry of the river
Lorien


Oct 18 2009, 8:16pm

Post #13 of 30 (138 views)
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Barking up the wrong tree [In reply to] Can't Post

Laugh Pardon the phrase, but I was trying to think of a subject and it just sprang to mind because Grima was 'barking up the wrong tree'!!

1.Something that intrigues me is why Eowyn closes her eyes as Grima strokes her cheek, any ideas why she does this?
I have to agree with weaver on this.

2.Based on this one shot alone, do you feel sorry for Grima?

I don't feel sorry for him because he is sick and nasty creature just trying to manipulate Eowyn. But a small part of me does feel sorry form him because he just wants someone to love and someone to love him, like everybody does. That's probably the closest he ever got to a woman and only because of Eowyn's distress and fragility.

3. I'm often in awe of Eowyn's hair, and this shot is no exception! But, for one in mourning does she look too 'tidy', or perhaps for someone in her position she has learned to have a graceful demeanor even under great stress?

Yes I think she would have learned how to still look presentable in stressful times. Also I think she would have had servants to help her dress and look after her hair when she struggled to.

4. Any other comments/thoughts
"Like a morning of pale spring, still clinging to winter's chill." I love that line, even though it's said by Grima!

Brian Blessed for Thorin!


Artanis
Rohan


Oct 18 2009, 9:22pm

Post #14 of 30 (150 views)
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Hee hee [In reply to] Can't Post

any excuse to get the dvds out again!! Laugh

Well done for checking out the scene. I've really enjoyed seeing Eowyn's relationship with all three men, and yes I'd want to go out and 'kill' something too!!

Artanis


Artanis
Rohan


Oct 18 2009, 9:26pm

Post #15 of 30 (144 views)
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Yes, re: Grima.. [In reply to] Can't Post

despite his creepiness and obvious evil heart, I do feel incredibly sorry for him for the exact reasons you said.

Artanis


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Oct 19 2009, 6:39am

Post #16 of 30 (110 views)
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Thanks for the welcome back... and your comments! :-) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Oct 19 2009, 9:42am

Post #17 of 30 (114 views)
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Love the 'Juliet's nurse' idea!!! :-D [In reply to] Can't Post

We really miss that totally in Tolkien's world!... No wise nurse anywhere it seems, neither in Rohan, nor among the Elves, not for the Gondorian damsels and not for Hobbit maidens either!!!
Can anyone identify anywhere a character that plays something like this 'Juliet's nurse' role???
There is Ioreth, but it is not quite that, I would say...

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Oct 19 2009, 9:51am

Post #18 of 30 (139 views)
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You're right about Faramir... But Aragorn [In reply to] Can't Post

actually touches the cheek of Éowyn yet another time, and again for even more caring reasons: when she is brought into the Houses of Healing, half-dead, and we see the one scene when as the future King he shows his healing power, first with some athelas, and then... laying his hand on her left cheek for a long while... and then she starts breathing again!

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


the_argonath
Lorien


Oct 19 2009, 6:02pm

Post #19 of 30 (115 views)
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"Like a morning of pale spring, still clinging to winter's chill." [In reply to] Can't Post

OMG I absolutely love this line by Grima! I love the imagery around it and can picture exactly what he means and I see it in Eowyn too!
Ahem..........
1.Something that intrigues me is why Eowyn closes her eyes as Grima strokes her cheek, any ideas why she does this?
I agree with everyone else on this, she craves intimacy, yet shuts Grima out, and she realises the truth as it's being spoken to her, but again by the wrong person. It does also add to the feeling of intmacy, whether it meant to or not!
2.Based on this one shot alone, do you feel sorry for Grima?
Definately not! He knows exactly what he's doing! Although, in the RotK EE on the top of Orthanc when Sauruman says "What will Rohan ever be but......", it surprised me that Grima became almost defensive of Rohan and of Theoden who looked upon him as his trusted advisor for a while. Showed another side of Grima for a split-second there....
3. I'm often in awe of Eowyn's hair, and this shot is no exception! But, for one in mourning does she look too 'tidy', or perhaps for someone in her position she has learned to have a graceful demeanor even under great stress?

I'm with you on this, Artanis, because I love her hair too! Not sure if she looks too tidy though, like mae govannen said, since she'd only just learned of Theodred's death. I think she'd look like this all the time and definately wouldn't be the type to let herself go like that.....

Thanks, Artanis Smile

~*Haudh-en-Ndengin the Elves named it, the Hill of Slain, and Haugh-en-Nirnaeth, the Hill of tears... the earth beneath which the swords of the Eldar and the Edain crumbled into rust*~



mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Oct 20 2009, 6:16am

Post #20 of 30 (97 views)
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Lovely line... by Tolkien!!! :-) [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder if there has ever been on this forum (or perhaps on the 'Reading Room' one?) a collection of the lines from Tolkien we find most beautiful, either in prose, like here, or in verse from the various poems and songs he gives to the cultures of Middle-earth ?

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


FarFromHome
Valinor


Oct 20 2009, 8:05am

Post #21 of 30 (104 views)
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Almost, but not quite.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Not quite by Tolkien, I mean.

This is what Tolkien wrote:

"Thus Aragorn for the first time in the full light of day beheld Éowyn, Lady of Rohan, and thought her fair, fair and cold, like a morning of pale spring that is not yet come to womanhood." (The King of the Golden Hall)

This whole scene is seamlessly constructed from little moments found all over the book - one of the best examples, perhaps, of how careful use of Tolkien's language can give you a kind of concentrated essence of Tolkien!

Tolkien doesn't have the "still clinging to winter's chill" at the end of this line, yet it sounds like Tolkien. And that, I think, is because words like these are very much in Tolkien's style - even in the Introduction there's an editor's note about the distinctive way Tolkien uses "chill":

"Distinctive words such as chill rather than cold, and glistered rather than glistened, changed by typesetters long ago without authorization, likewise have been restored." (Note in the Introduction to the 50th anniversary edition).

Tolkien also provides a sentence that uses the idea of winter "clinging":

"They seemed to have left winter clinging to the hills behind." (The Riders of Rohan)

I think that's why this sentence sounds so authentically and completely Tolkien, even though it isn't, quite. All the elements are Tolkien, but they have been delicately assembled from different places to produce one striking line. And then it's given to Grima, along with Gandalf's words from the Houses of Healing:

"But who knows what she spoke to the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night, when all her life seemed shrinking, and the walls of her bower closing in about her, a hutch to trammel some wild thing in?"

to make a very powerful scene that Tolkien never wrote!

I think of it as one of the many small examples of the massive "jigsaw puzzle" that the filmmakers sometimes mention that they were solving.


Quote
I wonder if there has ever been on this forum (or perhaps on the 'Reading Room' one?) a collection of the lines from Tolkien we find most beautiful, either in prose, like here, or in verse from the various poems and songs he gives to the cultures of Middle-earth ?



There used to be several websites with collections of lines like these, with the original Tolkien lines inserted as links in the movie script. It was really very impressive to see. But the ones I used to use have sadly disappeared from the web. If anyone knows of a website that still has something like this, I'd love to know about it!


They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Lily Fairbairn
Half-elven


Oct 21 2009, 2:58pm

Post #22 of 30 (87 views)
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It's just occurred to me [In reply to] Can't Post

That these words/lines that apply to Eowyn, "fair and cold", "pale spring", "clinging to winter's chill", are evoked in the scene between Eowyn and Faramir in the EE, when she comments (sorry, don't have the exact lines at hand) about the chill, and he says something about spring rains.

I wonder if PJ et al intended Faramir's words to thaw her out, so to speak, or whether this is simply one of those unintended felicities of the book-to-script process. I mean, it's her decision to ride to battle and then her marriage to Faramir that brings Eowyn past that pale spring into full flower.

* * * * * * *
Do we walk in legends or on the green earth in the daylight?

A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!


FarFromHome
Valinor


Oct 21 2009, 8:37pm

Post #23 of 30 (87 views)
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I'm glad you thought of that [In reply to] Can't Post

Because I was wondering the same thing, and then thinking maybe I was imagining it! But now you've noticed it too, so maybe there really is a connection.


In Reply To
...these words/lines that apply to Eowyn, "fair and cold", "pale spring", "clinging to winter's chill", are evoked in the scene between Eowyn and Faramir in the EE, when she comments (sorry, don't have the exact lines at hand) about the chill, and he says something about spring rains.



It could be just a coincidence, but I think it's quite likely that it was intended - especially as this "icy" imagery also comes up in the book's Houses of Healing scene: "When I first looked on her ... I saw a white flower standing straight and proud, shapely as a lily, and yet knew that it was hard, as if ... maybe, a frost ... had turned its sap to ice, and so it stood, bitter-sweet, still fair to see, but stricken, soon to fall and die" (Aragorn, before he heals Eowyn). So these ideas quite likely would have been in the minds of the scriptwriters when they were writing the scene between Faramir and Eowyn. I like the idea that those "spring rains" are melting the ice in Eowyn's heart!


They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



weaver
Half-elven

Oct 21 2009, 10:09pm

Post #24 of 30 (79 views)
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And here I thought they were talking about the weather... [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink

To me, the biggest change in this scene, book to screen, is that it's not about Eowyn at all any more -- it's really all about Fararmir, here, IMHO. Movie Eowyn, I think, at least in the TE, is pretty much OK as soon as she delivers that "I am no man" line -- once she finds her own power and does something with it.

Faramir, though, probably has some things to resolve after that unfortunate incident with the pyre...I love the last shot of him, where he's finally at peace, for the first time in the movies, with Eowyn in his arms. It's great to see the poor guy finally get a break!

Weaver





weaver
Half-elven

Oct 21 2009, 10:25pm

Post #25 of 30 (82 views)
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...sitting in a tree... [In reply to] Can't Post

...k-i-s-s-i-n-g...sorry, junior high humor moment..!

I agree with you that they packed a lot into this scene and even with the barest bit of dialogue got a lot of the book spirit in it -- and the setting is really beautiful, too, the ultimate romantic getaway...

And I do love that look he gives her...and it's interesting to think of it, as you wrote, as a different version of the "face touch" everyone else gives her. Perhaps the fact that he does not touch her without sort of "checking with her" first is what makes the difference in her response -- that little moment of giving her a chance to decide how to respond to him, before he makes his move, is really important I think. It's the visual equivalent, I guess, of all those pages in the book -- there, their conversation helps Eowyn learn that Faramir is different, and that he values and respect her feelings, as much as his own. In the films, one look has to do all of that -- good thing the actors nailed it!

Weaver




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