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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Sep 13 2009, 3:03pm
Post #1 of 9
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“Eldamar” & “Fëanor” III – “going even to the borders of the Dark”
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This post covers the third and fourth parts of Chapter 5, from the history of Alqualondë beginning, “Here must be told how the Teleri came at last”, to the description of Fëanor’s journeys in Aman concluding, “and perhaps never now shall be, since the fashion of the world was changed”. In these sections:
Gradually the Teleri come to desire the light of Valinor and company of other elves, so Ossë teaches them how to construct boats, and send swans to pull them across to the mainland. They strew the beaches of Aman with jewels given to them by the Noldor, and build there the city of Alqualondë, with a harbor whose sea-gate is a great rock arch. From there they sail along the coast in swan-shaped boats. Later the Vanyar –whose leader, Ingwë, is the over-king of all elves– move from half-lit Tirion to Valinor proper, particularly on the slopes of Taniquetil. The Noldor, and Fëanor in particular, are explorers within Aman, “seeking the unknown”.
Questions
Why does Tolkien have the Teleri spend an age on Tol Eressëa, rather than sending them straight to Alqualondë? (Where they will be needed for the later Kin-slaying plot.)
What does it mean, that their “desire of the light was … stronger” than their love of the sea?
Why would Ossë know how to make ships? And why swans?
Did all the Teleri leave Tol Eressëa or just some of them – were its towns left to rot for thousands of years? Was Celeborn already growing there, or was it planted after the War of Wrath? Did they ever sail back to visit their abandoned homes?
Why are the Vanyar beloved of Varda, given that they appreciate her stars less than the other elves?
What purpose is there in having kings in a land where you live with the gods?
Why are there no descriptions of any of the “many other creatures that have not been seen in Middle-earth” but live in Aman? Unicorns? Oliphaunts? Fastitocalon? And did this collection of the world’s animals always live in Aman, or did the Valar move them there only when they retreated to that western continent?
Further thoughts on these four paragraphs?
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We're discussing The Silmarillion in the Reading Room, Aug. 9 - Mar 7. Please join the conversation!
This week: "Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië" and "Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor".
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sador
Half-elven
Sep 14 2009, 11:32am
Post #2 of 9
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Why does Tolkien have the Teleri spend an age on Tol Eressëa, rather than sending them straight to Alqualondë? (Where they will be needed for the later Kin-slaying plot.)
To have their speech sundered from that of the other high-elves.
He couldn't resist the opportunity!
What does it mean, that their “desire of the light was … stronger” than their love of the sea?
The desire of light is a major theme in Tolkien, isn't it? And Tol Eressea was not that well-lit!
Looking at this in another way, Osse cannot defeat Varda forever.
Why would Ossë know how to make ships?
He would know the physics needed to navigate through stroms and gales.
And why swans?
Isn't there some mythology of swans?
Did all the Teleri leave Tol Eressëa or just some of them – were its towns left to rot for thousands of years?
Maybe they were! Your question put me in mind of Frodo's Dreme.
Was Celeborn already growing there, or was it planted after the War of Wrath?
I don't know.
Did they ever sail back to visit their abandoned homes?
If they did, Tolkien doesn't tell.
Why are the Vanyar beloved of Varda, given that they appreciate her stars less than the other elves?
Any Lady loves someone who feigns independence (but never really rebels)!
What purpose is there in having kings in a land where you live with the gods?
Let them call themselves kings, and run their petty internal business by themselves.
(Same as the Noldor eventually decided about Men - but indeed, they did not call their lords 'kings'. Hmm.)
Why are there no descriptions of any of the “many other creatures that have not been seen in Middle-earth” but live in Aman?
Some things are best left to one's imagination.
Unicorns?
Maybe.
Oliphaunts?
No, these are Middle-earth creatures.
But they come from the far South - do you think they might be connected to Ungoliant?
Fastitocalon?
Nice! I nearly forgot about that one.
And did this collection of the world’s animals always live in Aman, or did the Valar move them there only when they retreated to that western continent?
I guess the second.
Further thoughts on these four paragraphs?
Why is Ingwe high king of all elves? Because he is near to Manwe? Because Elwe and Finwe are dead? Something else? When did he get this title?
"I would weep, if I were not so weary" - Miriel.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Sep 14 2009, 8:18pm
Post #3 of 9
(519 views)
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Why does Tolkien have the Teleri spend an age on Tol Eressëa, rather than sending them straight to Alqualondë? (Where they will be needed for the later Kin-slaying plot.)
I like sador's answer. Although I can't help thinking that the language of immortals shouldn't be "sundered" by separation - the evolution of language, like the evolution of history to legend and myth, is a function of its transmission through generations.
What does it mean, that their “desire of the light was … stronger” than their love of the sea?
"The grass is greener on the other side".... they love the sound of the sea on their own shores, and yet that heavenly light lures them across it.
Why would Ossë know how to make ships? And why swans?
He represents the interface between the land and the sea, so the making of ships sounds like a good attribute for him. Swans are also birds at the interface of land and sea - normally we think of them as living in inland waters, but they also love the sea-shore. And in Anglo-Saxon poetry, the sea is called the "swan-road". Swans also feature in Celtic mythology, and are linked with the sea - I'm thinking especially of the legend of the Children of Lir.
Did all the Teleri leave Tol Eressëa or just some of them – were its towns left to rot for thousands of years? Was Celeborn already growing there, or was it planted after the War of Wrath? Did they ever sail back to visit their abandoned homes?
It appears that the tale does not tell.
Why are the Vanyar beloved of Varda, given that they appreciate her stars less than the other elves?
I get the impression that it's about rank. The Vanyar are the highest order of Elves, and are therefore loved by the highest-ranking Valar, Manwe and Varda.
What purpose is there in having kings in a land where you live with the gods?
I think it suggests that the gods weren't living with the people in any literal, day-to-day way. Probably the kings were the interlocutors with the gods, as in many ancient kingdoms.
Why are there no descriptions of any of the “many other creatures that have not been seen in Middle-earth” but live in Aman? Unicorns? Oliphaunts? Fastitocalon? And did this collection of the world’s animals always live in Aman, or did the Valar move them there only when they retreated to that western continent?
Griffons, winged horses and the like, perhaps. This reference makes me think of the fantastical animals that decorate medieval manuscripts. As they have never been seen here in the world, but exist only in the mythic world of Aman, I assume that they only ever lived there. These are the beasts of the imagination, a very rich bestiary indeed.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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batik
Tol Eressea
Sep 15 2009, 12:31am
Post #4 of 9
(679 views)
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Why does Tolkien have the Teleri spend an age on Tol Eressëa, rather than sending them straight to Alqualondë? (Where they will be needed for the later Kin-slaying plot.)
Perhaps this 'apart-ness' was necessary for a couple of reasons. It allowed the Teleri to develop their community/culture which may have, in turn, allowed the kin-slaying to take place. Not implying that Feanor and crew would not have acted in the way they did regardless, but maybe the bond wasn't as strong as it might have been if the Teleri had been on the mainland longer.
What does it mean, that their “desire of the light was … stronger” than their love of the sea?
Desire/selfish; love/selfless????
Why would Ossë know how to make ships? And why swans?
The swans--some connection to that relationship between air and water?
I suppose Osse's ship-building is just his *gift*--one of the more practical, down to earth that we've seen so far.
Did all the Teleri leave Tol Eressëa or just some of them – were its towns left to rot for thousands of years? Was Celeborn already growing there, or was it planted after the War of Wrath? Did they ever sail back to visit their abandoned homes?
I guess they all left--just because if "some" have stayed prior to this, we've been given that information.
(Index!) Well, some are said to live there--later. I have no idea when Celeborn was planted!
Why are the Vanyar beloved of Varda, given that they appreciate her stars less than the other elves?
I suppose because they are willing to forsake the *world* and are content to sit and absorb anything Manwe and Varda care to teach them.
What purpose is there in having kings in a land where you live with the gods?
So the *little* folk believe they have access to someone in charge?
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Beren IV
Gondor
Sep 16 2009, 1:38am
Post #5 of 9
(487 views)
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Why does Tolkien have the Teleri spend an age on Tol Eressëa, rather than sending them straight to Alqualondë? (Where they will be needed for the later Kin-slaying plot.)
The Elves do everything in ages, apparently. I'm not sure what Tolkien was thinking, except in that Elves are immortal. He clearly never really thought about how their immortality as he thought of it simply cannot be.
What does it mean, that their “desire of the light was … stronger” than their love of the sea?
It means they're basically good.
Why would Ossë know how to make ships? And why swans?
As a general rule, deities are smart enough to understand what kinds of machines lesser beings could engineer to make use of their divine element.
Did all the Teleri leave Tol Eressëa or just some of them – were its towns left to rot for thousands of years? Was Celeborn already growing there, or was it planted after the War of Wrath? Did they ever sail back to visit their abandoned homes?
While I'm sure Tolkien envisioned it that way, I can't imagine it for a moment. I'm sure that Tol Eressëa is still inhabited by elves, and will forever be, until the stony hand of extinction rises up to claim them!
Why are the Vanyar beloved of Varda, given that they appreciate her stars less than the other elves?
Where did that come from?
What purpose is there in having kings in a land where you live with the gods?
I don't know, but Tolkien has a liking for kings. Really, though, these guys are prophets, not kings, and they have led their people to the chosen land.
Why are there no descriptions of any of the “many other creatures that have not been seen in Middle-earth” but live in Aman? Unicorns? Oliphaunts? Fastitocalon? And did this collection of the world’s animals always live in Aman, or did the Valar move them there only when they retreated to that western continent?
I like to envision proto-Dragons, among other things - the good Dragons, made before Melkor truly became evil. Also, I see Aman as having a lot of animals and plants extinct in ME but still surviving there.
The paleobotanist is back!
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sador
Half-elven
Sep 16 2009, 6:19am
Post #6 of 9
(479 views)
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Why are there no descriptions of any of the “many other creatures that have not been seen in Middle-earth” but live in Aman? Unicorns? Oliphaunts? Fastitocalon?
I like to envision proto-Dragons, among other things - the good Dragons, made before Melkor truly became evil.
"I would weep, if I were not so weary" - Miriel.
(This post was edited by sador on Sep 16 2009, 6:21am)
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Beren IV
Gondor
Sep 16 2009, 1:22pm
Post #7 of 9
(472 views)
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The paleobotanist is back!
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Sep 16 2009, 2:06pm
Post #8 of 9
(488 views)
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The dragon in "Farmer Giles of Ham". //
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<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Silmarillion in the Reading Room, Aug. 9 - Mar 7. Please join the conversation!
This week: "Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië" and "Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor" and "Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor" and "Of the Darkening of Valinor".
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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Beren IV
Gondor
Sep 16 2009, 2:16pm
Post #9 of 9
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Darn - still haven't read that.
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But I seem to recall that the dragon in FGoH is still a villain, isn't he?
The paleobotanist is back!
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