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squire
Half-elven
Sep 7 2009, 3:33am
Post #1 of 9
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**Of Thingol and Melian** - When I saw her standin’ there…
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Synopsis for this thread: Elwë Thingol, King of the Teleri, is enchanted by the song of Melian. Start from: Melian was a Maia, of the race of the Valar. and finish at: … the trees of Nan Elmoth grew tall and dark before they spoke any word.
I. Story Time
Melian, by Tatayana Yermolaeva
As one of the Maiar in Valinor, Melian is “kin” to Yavanna, but hangs out in Lórien’s garden.
A. What are those two the Valar “of”, respectively?
Melian, by Marta Aguado
B. What does this double-Valar connection tell us about Melian?
Melian stops Valinor in its tracks every time she sings. I would have thought that that level of performance would have been reserved for one of the Valar.
C. Wasn’t there a Vala or Valie who was in charge of singing? If not, why not?
Melian, by Dan Govar
D. Why do the birds always start singing before sunrise? Is that the image we have here, “before the dawn” in Middle-earth? In the context of an eternal starlit twilight when the Elves were born, what does “dawn” refer to?
E. Can you name all the images and phrases that connect song, the night, and magic in this passage? Why is this such a powerful theme?
“…and there Melian stood.”
F. Did she summon him?
Melian by Alina Pereswet
“She spoke no word”. It never says that Melian loved Elwë.
G. Did she? How can we tell?
H. Why does the touching of her hand activate the “spell” that was laid on him, when “an enchantment fell on him” already, a little while earlier?
Those old wheeling stars. Tolkien loves them. Unlike the sun, which rises and sets along the ecliptic, and so seems to revolve around the earth, the stars can be seen to rotate around, not the earth, but a point out in space above the north pole (and south pole too).
I. Doesn’t the wheeling of the stars suggest a Newtonian universe, where Arda is a planet rotating beneath a stationary heaven?
II. Text and Tradition
I brought this song up (see my post titled "Maybe") in the context of Aragorn and Arwen’s meeting and how it reflected Beren’s first vision of Luthien.
Well, she was just 17,
You know what I mean,
And the way she looked was way beyond compare.
So how could I dance with another (ooh)
When I saw her standin' there.
Well she looked at me, and I, I could see
That before too long I'd fall in love with her.
She wouldn't dance with another (whooh)
When I saw her standin' there.
Well, my heart went "boom,"
When I crossed that room,
And I held her hand in mine...
Well, we danced through the night,
And we held each other tight,
And before too long I fell in love with her.
Now, I'll never dance with another (whooh)
When I saw her standing there
The song seems applicable here too. And this encounter predates both Beren’s and Aragorn’s.
J. Have you ever experienced this magic moment? What's it like? Ay, know what I mean?
K. Why does Tolkien use it three times, across three generations of (sort of) the same family?
L. Why is the woman always of higher rank or order?
Thingol and Melian, from a Hungarian fan site.
M. What is the connection between this archetypal love connection scene, and the legend of the evil, or “perilous”, enchantress in the woods – La Belle Dame Sans Merci?
N. Did this scene also take place when Celeborn met Galadriel? When Gimli met Galadriel?
Later Thingol encounters Beren and learns of the magic moment the young man had with Luthien, just like he did with the missus in the good old days of his carefree youth.
O. Why does the King not get all weepy and just give the happy couple his blessing?
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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batik
Tol Eressea
Sep 7 2009, 6:02am
Post #2 of 9
(1197 views)
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meanwhile, out in the woods...
[In reply to]
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A. What are those two the Valar “of”, respectively?
B. What does this double-Valar connection tell us about Melian?
C. Wasn’t there a Vala or Valie who was in charge of singing? If not, why not?
Yavanna/growing things; Irmo/dreams. Maybe this provides an explanation for Melian's choice to leave Valinor. She wishes to be a part of the development of nature on M-e and dreams have been an influence.
And Yavanna did sing the trees into being, so to speak. Which part was written when? Was Melian's role added/expanded to tie in to Luthien's singing?
She spoke no word”. It never says that Melian loved Elwë.
G. Did she? How can we tell?
Well...it doesn't say it here. But, later...ok...jumping ahead several chapters: "...but for love of Elwe Singollo she...". Of course the *she* is Melian.
L. Why is the woman always of higher rank or order?
Option 1: It's acceptable for women to marry *beneath* themselves (but this is not acceptable for men?).
Option 2: A woman's position is so solid then not even marrying *down* will have an impact.
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Twit
Lorien
Sep 7 2009, 1:05pm
Post #3 of 9
(1117 views)
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women are more open minded.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Sep 8 2009, 12:12pm
Post #4 of 9
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What struck me reading this myth was the image of the nightingale, which I had always associated with Luthien, and then with Arwen when Aragorn called her by that name (Tinuviel). I hadn't realized that it goes back all the way to Melian. What a perfect image it is, a bird that sings even in the night-time, and has a reputation for enchanting its hearers with its beautiful, ethereal song. I think I'd rather compare Thingol's experience to Keats rather than the Beatles:
MY heart aches, and a drowsy numbness pains
My sense, as though of hemlock I had drunk,
Or emptied some dull opiate to the drains
One minute past, and Lethe-wards had sunk:
'Tis not through envy of thy happy lot,
But being too happy in thine happiness,
That thou, light-wingèd Dryad of the trees,
In some melodious plot
Of beechen green, and shadows numberless,
Singest of summer in full-throated ease.
O for a draught of vintage! that hath been
Cool'd a long age in the deep-delvèd earth,
Tasting of Flora and the country-green,
Dance, and Provençal song, and sunburnt mirth!
O for a beaker full of the warm South!
Full of the true, the blushful Hippocrene,
With beaded bubbles winking at the brim,
And purple-stainèd mouth;
That I might drink, and leave the world unseen,
And with thee fade away into the forest dim:
Fade far away, dissolve, and quite forget
What thou among the leaves hast never known,
The weariness, the fever, and the fret
Here, where men sit and hear each other groan;
Where palsy shakes a few, sad, last grey hairs,
Where youth grows pale, and spectre-thin, and dies;
Where but to think is to be full of sorrow
And leaden-eyed despairs;
Where beauty cannot keep her lustrous eyes,
Or new Love pine at them beyond to-morrow.
Away! away! for I will fly to thee,
Not charioted by Bacchus and his pards,
But on the viewless wings of Poesy,
Though the dull brain perplexes and retards:
Already with thee! tender is the night,
And haply the Queen-Moon is on her throne,
Cluster'd around by all her starry Fays
But here there is no light,
Save what from heaven is with the breezes blown
Through verdurous glooms and winding mossy ways.
.....
Thou wast not born for death, immortal Bird!
No hungry generations tread thee down;
The voice I hear this passing night was heard
In ancient days by emperor and clown:
Perhaps the self-same song that found a path
Through the sad heart of Ruth, when, sick for home,
She stood in tears amid the alien corn;
The same that ofttimes hath
Charm'd magic casements, opening on the foam
Of perilous seas, in faery lands forlorn.
Forlorn! the very word is like a bell
To toll me back from thee to my sole self!
Adieu! the fancy cannot cheat so well
As she is famed to do, deceiving elf.
Adieu! adieu! thy plaintive anthem fades
Past the near meadows, over the still stream,
Up the hill-side; and now 'tis buried deep
In the next valley-glades:
Was it a vision, or a waking dream?
Fled is that music:—do I wake or sleep?
Thingol is luckier than Keats, because his nightingale does not fly away. But the sense of disorientation, the willingness to give up everything else and live in a timeless world for the sake of the enchantment - that's what I feel in the story of Thingol and Melian. It's no simple love story, no upbeat, happy boy-meets-girl experience. This is love as transcendence, love that cannot be resisted and for which one would willingly give up everything.
It's related to Courtly Love, of course (no matter what Tolkien says!), and to those tales of Faeries enchanting men in the woods, as in La Belle Dame Sans Merci, as you suggest. It's very likely Celtic in origin, I tend to think. There are some very powerful, magical females in the Celtic myths, and Guinevere, for one, is from that lineage. Those stories do usually involve a more powerful female and a male who is worshipful and perhaps lucky enough to "trap" the female who has enchanted him, by the strength of his own devotion.
It wouldn't work the other way around because by its very nature it has to overturn the natural order of things. In traditional storytelling, this is the one realm in which a woman has the power to overcome a man - and the man welcomes his subservience. Obviously, there are other wish-fulfillment tales (Cinderella, for example) in which a powerful man falls in love with a humble maiden. But that's a different story.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Beren IV
Gondor
Sep 9 2009, 1:56am
Post #5 of 9
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Melian is quite the seductress
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Nice pictures! Tatayana Yermolaeva and Alina Pereswet are my favorites.
A. What are those two the Valar “of”, respectively?
An artifact to an earlier version? Or perhaps she has powers and interests similar to those of Yavanna?
Yavanna is the goddess of the earth, Estë of (physical) healing and wellness. Hmm...
B. What does this double-Valar connection tell us about Melian?
It tells us that if Maiar are indeed dependent upon the elements of their respective Valar, that Melian is dependent on more than one, and as such some what independent of all. This may explain why she can get involved in ME, marry Thingol, etc.
C. Wasn’t there a Vala or Valie who was in charge of singing? If not, why not?
You might think that would be Vána. Obviously, Melian is a really big Maia, maybe on a par with Sauron. She's not some little thing.
D. Why do the birds always start singing before sunrise? Is that the image we have here, “before the dawn” in Middle-earth? In the context of an eternal starlit twilight when the Elves were born, what does “dawn” refer to?
Ecologically, because it's light enough for them to see and not so hot that they need to hunker down. I'm not sure what the symbolic meaning is here, though.
F. Did she summon him?
Yes - I'm quite sure Melian knew exactly what she was doing. And yes, based on her actions later, I think she did love Thingol.
I. Doesn’t the wheeling of the stars suggest a Newtonian universe, where Arda is a planet rotating beneath a stationary heaven?
The old Norse certainly understood that the stars wheeled and rotated around Polaris. However, it doesn't imply a Newtonian universe per se, but crystal spheres encircling the Earth. Of course, the Earth is round, and just about all of the sophistocated ancient peoples not only knew that, but also how big the Earth is.
K. Why does Tolkien use it three times, across three generations of (sort of) the same family?
That's prettymuch the standard archetypal hero motif, where the hero appears out of obscurity and marries the princess and becomes king himself. And that line is a family of heroes.
L. Why is the woman always of higher rank or order?
See above - the hero has to marry royally up.
N. Did this scene also take place when Celeborn met Galadriel? When Gimli met Galadriel?
Not really, or not to the same extent. The gap between Sinda and Noldo isn't as big as the gap between Adan and Elf, let alone Elf and Maia.
O. Why does the King not get all weepy and just give the happy couple his blessing?
The hero archetype again - Beren has to prove himself.
I think that our view of Thingol could be improved a great deal if he were to be more open with Beren and just tell him "if you are to marry my daughter, you must prove yourself worthy." Lúthien knows Beren is worthy, but only because she senses it in his character. He still must prove himself - as she must prove herself.
The paleobotanist is back!
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sador
Half-elven
Sep 9 2009, 9:36am
Post #6 of 9
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A. What are those two the Valar “of”, respectively?
Yavanna - of living things (flora and fauna), Lorien - of sleep, dreams, and rest.
B. What does this double-Valar connection tell us about Melian?
Repose is a major part of health, and she embodies this connection.
Her singing is interesting in that context.
C. Wasn’t there a Vala or Valie who was in charge of singing? If not, why not?
There is no one in charge of the arts, as the Valar are less obviously human than the Greek pantheon.
D. Why do the birds always start singing before sunrise?
They are cold?
Is that the image we have here, “before the dawn” in Middle-earth?
Could be. Nice thought!
In the context of an eternal starlit twilight when the Elves were born, what does “dawn” refer to?
The making of the Sun, and the awakening of Men.
E. Can you name all the images and phrases that connect song, the night, and magic in this passage? Why is this such a powerful theme?
No; I haven't got the book with me.
F. Did she summon him?
That's anyones guess; but doesn't it say that she was suddenly aware of him? I really don't remember.
G. Did she? How can we tell?
By her being broken-hearted after his death.
H. Why does the touching of her hand activate the “spell” that was laid on him, when “an enchantment fell on him” already, a little while earlier?
Nearer contact, greater spell.
I. Doesn’t the wheeling of the stars suggest a Newtonian universe, where Arda is a planet rotating beneath a stationary heaven?
Possibly. At first, Tolkien thought he could simply ignore this; but later in his life he had second thoughts.
J. Have you ever experienced this magic moment? What's it like? Ay, know what I mean?
No, I can't say so.
K. Why does Tolkien use it three times, across three generations of (sort of) the same family?
He did.
L. Why is the woman always of higher rank or order?
Maybe that is how he felt about Edith? That she was conferring a special grace on him by accepting him?
M. What is the connection between this archetypal love connection scene, and the legend of the evil, or “perilous”, enchantress in the woods – La Belle Dame Sans Merci?
That is quite the same; the flip side of the coin.
N. Did this scene also take place when Celeborn met Galadriel?
I don't think so.
When Gimli met Galadriel?
Yes; and it's by far the best description of such a moment in Tolkien.
O. Why does the King not get all weepy and just give the happy couple his blessing?
It would spoil the story.
"I would weep, if I were not so weary" - Miriel.
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Sep 10 2009, 4:36am
Post #7 of 9
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As one of the Maiar in Valinor, Melian is “kin” to Yavanna, but hangs out in Lórien’s garden.
A. What are those two the Valar “of”, respectively?
Yavanna is Nature, the living Earth. Lorien is Dreams.
B. What does this double-Valar connection tell us about Melian?
That Melian is a nature-spirit, more closely involved with Middle Earth than most, since Yavanna was one of the few Valar who cared. She was probably part of Yavanna's retinue in frequently visiting Middle Earth. As for the Garden of Lorien, that's where all the Ainur go for R&R. Rather than just soak up the ambiance, Melian contributes to it, by her singing. But the implication is that she is a dream-creature, too, perhaps a dream of nature, maybe even a glimpse of what the dream of Nature was in the original, pre-marred music.
C. Wasn’t there a Vala or Valie who was in charge of singing? If not, why not?
Because it's a sub-category of the larger category of Creativity, and that's Illuvatar's specialty, expressed through all of the Ainur. Maybe Melian would have become Valie of Singing if she had married Orome and Vana married Thengel.
D. Why do the birds always start singing before sunrise? Is that the image we have here, “before the dawn” in Middle-earth? In the context of an eternal starlit twilight when the Elves were born, what does “dawn” refer to?
Because that's when the pre-dawn light wakes them up. And the first thing they do is the same as the last thing they do as night falls, which is chirp at all the other birds in the flock roosting in the same place. I imagine it's the equivalent of saying, "I'm here!" "You here?" "I'm here, too!" "We're all here!" Or at least that's what it sounds like. Critters like to touch bases with their own kind.
As for "Dawn" in this story, that's a darned good question, because once Melian marries Thingol, her singing in Lorien days were over.
E. Can you name all the images and phrases that connect song, the night, and magic in this passage? Why is this such a powerful theme?
I'm not even going to try to name them all (I'm way behind on this board) but I agree on the power of the theme. Night is when we lose most of our dominant sense, making it mysterious. A song in the night sounds all the sharper because we're forced to invest more of ourselves in listening then usual, in the absence of sight. A sudden peal of beautiful music in the dark seems magical, because it means beauty welling up in the midst of what we fear. At least that's my theory.
“…and there Melian stood.”
F. Did she summon him?
Perhaps destiny summoned them both.
“She spoke no word”. It never says that Melian loved Elwë.
G. Did she? How can we tell?
Anyone who would give up Valinor for Middle Earth has got to be bats crazy in love. And if she wasn't, she'd soon get bored with the staring marathon.
H. Why does the touching of her hand activate the “spell” that was laid on him, when “an enchantment fell on him” already, a little while earlier?
Before then she was naught but "a vision of delight". After that she became physical to him.
I. Doesn’t the wheeling of the stars suggest a Newtonian universe, where Arda is a planet rotating beneath a stationary heaven?
Only if you know about Newton, or think like him. It didn't "suggest" any such thing to us for thousands of years.
J. Have you ever experienced this magic moment? What's it like? Ay, know what I mean?
Disturbing. You can feel something slipping out of control, your logic goes offline, and you know your life is never going to be the same again and there's not one dadburned thing that you can do about it, and most frightening of all, that's exactly how you want it, and you stand beside yourself, uncomprehending, wondering why your heart is suddenly quietly yet exuberantly trashing years of safety and stability for something totally unfamiliar and unpredictable. You sense greater forces at work, and you don't know whether to shout, "How dare You!" or "Halleluia!"
K. Why does Tolkien use it three times, across three generations of (sort of) the same family?
Because Hemmingway said, "Write what you know." And even though I don't think Hemmingway had even said that yet, or whether or not Tolkien ever heard of it, he wrote what he knew, stylized by fantasy, but each story is still really about him and his wife-to-be.
L. Why is the woman always of higher rank or order?
Because that involves the greater sacrifice. Women tend to take on the status of their husbands.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Sep 10 2009, 4:44am
Post #8 of 9
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I hit "Send" too soon. Here's the rest of my answers.
M. What is the connection between this archetypal love connection scene, and the legend of the evil, or “perilous”, enchantress in the woods – La Belle Dame Sans Merci?
La Belle Dame Sans Merci left her lovers utterly helpless, too. Thomas Rhymer, however, fared better.
N. Did this scene also take place when Celeborn met Galadriel? When Gimli met Galadriel?
In a sense, yes, although in the latter case it was unrequitable Courtly Love.
O. Why does the King not get all weepy and just give the happy couple his blessing?
Because fathers notoriously go nuts when it comes to protecting their daughters, particularly against young men who act all too similarly to their younger selves.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Sep 10 2009, 4:48am
Post #9 of 9
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It has been too long since I heard that poem!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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