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Arwen's daughter
Half-elven
Aug 10 2009, 4:39pm
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Ainulindalë 1: The Greater Mechanics of World-Building (Ilúvatar)
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Hi everyone. I'll be kicking off our discussion of The Silmarillion. I want to take a moment here and talk about what you can expect this week. I'm covering the Ainulindalë in 6 parts: Eru, the Ainur, Melkor, a Catholic reading, a comparison with other creation stories, and an open discussion. Obviously some of these parts are going to overlap.
I won't really be posting any summaries of the chapter. It's all of 8 pages long in my copy and to make it any shorter just seems a little silly. So, without any further ado, here is today's discussion.
1. Why does Eru have two names?
2. The narrator tells us that in Arda he's called Ilúvatar, so where is the narrator if not in Arda?
3. At first the Ainur sing with Eru only alone or in small groups. What do these smaller arrangements accomplish?
4. How does he start a new theme within the music by just holding up his hand?
5. Why does Eru keep some of the history of this world to himself? And why does the vision end particularly before the Dominion of Men?
6. When the Valar move into this new world Ilúvatar is no longer mentioned as taking any part in the story. Why?
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Curious
Half-elven
Aug 10 2009, 6:03pm
Post #2 of 38
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I won't really be posting any summaries of the chapter. It's all of 8 pages long in my copy and to make it any shorter just seems a little silly.
I would appreciate it if you would quote the specific lines that inspire your questions, if possible, or one or two examples if that is less voluminous. I don't have access to The Silmarillion at all times.
1. Why does Eru have two names?
For a long time "Ilúvatar" was the only name of God in Tolkien's writings, as I understand it. The name "Eru" appeared after LotR. I'm going to speculate that Tolkien wanted to clarify that Ilúvatar was identical to the Christian God, and not similar to some non-Christian father-figure immortal like Zeus or Odin. Eru means "the One," and clarifies that despite the existence of the Ainur, Middle-earth is monotheistic. In Appendix A to LotR, regarding the fall of Numenor, Tolkien referred to Eru as "the One."
2. The narrator tells us that in Arda he's called Ilúvatar, so where is the narrator if not in Arda?
Eru is the more accurate name, Ilúvatar the more popular name. The narrator is in Arda, but is hearing a story that comes from a time before Arda existed, and ultimately from the Ainur themselves, who witnessed the story. But I also get the impression that the story is a kind of analogy for what really happened, which probably did not bear as much resemblance to a human orchestra or choir.
3. At first the Ainur sing with Eru only alone or in small groups. What do these smaller arrangements accomplish?
I think it is meant to foreshadow the time when the Ainur first come to Arda, and many of them work separately at first.
4. How does he start a new theme within the music by just holding up his hand?
Presumably there is more to it than that. Indeed, all the music ultimately comes from Eru, even Melkor's music. Eru is not just conducting the orchestra, He is, in a sense, playing every instrument in the orchestra, through the Ainur.
5. Why does Eru keep some of the history of this world to himself?
Are you sure He did? I don't have the text handy, but are you assuming that the music ended prematurely? Based on what?
I've always assumed that although the ending was in dischord, the ending of Arda Marred is also in dischord. What we do not hear is the symphony that follows, the symphony of Arda Remade. But that will come after the end of Arda Marred.
And why does the vision end particularly before the Dominion of Men?
I'm sorry, I must be missing something. Where does it say that? You don't have to do a complete summary, but it would help if you quote the section directly relating to your question.
6. When the Valar move into this new world Ilúvatar is no longer mentioned as taking any part in the story. Why?
As in the concert, Eru operates through the Ainur. But as in the concert, He may start a new theme sometime in the future, and may alter the themes along the way. He's not remote and uninvolved at all.
Indeed, in a sense He is playing every instrument himself, through the Ainur, and constantly tinkering with the music as it is being played. This is very different from the idea of God as a watchmaker who sets everything in motion and then sits back to see it unfold.
(This post was edited by Curious on Aug 10 2009, 6:11pm)
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Arwen's daughter
Half-elven
Aug 10 2009, 6:49pm
Post #3 of 38
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Better summarizing skills coming right up!
And why does the vision end particularly before the Dominion of Men?
I'm sorry, I must be missing something. Where does it say that? You don't have to do a complete summary, but it would help if you quote the section directly relating to your question.
Yet some things there are that they cannot see, neither alone nor taking counsel together; for to none but himself has Iluvatar revealed all that he has in store, and in every age there come forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past. And so it was that as this vision of the World was played before them, the Ainur saw that it contained things which they had not thought. And they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Iluvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they temselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any prupose beyond its own beauty. For the Children of Iluvatar were conceived by him alone... and
And some have said that the vision ceased ere the fulfillment of the Dominion of Men and the fading of the Firstborn; wherefore, thought the Music is over all, the Valar have not seen as with sight the Later Ages or the ending of the World.
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batik
Tol Eressea
Aug 10 2009, 7:30pm
Post #4 of 38
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1. Why does Eru have two names?
I dont' know but...Ha! Who doesn't have two names? (I know there are some, but it seems like *everybody* and every location has an "also known as"  )
2. The narrator tells us that in Arda he's called Ilúvatar, so where is the narrator if not in Arda?
Valinor?
3. At first the Ainur sing with Eru only alone or in small groups. What do these smaller arrangements accomplish?
Sort of like a solo and ensemble contest---the strengths of each can be measured.
4. How does he start a new theme within the music by just holding up his hand?
Reminds me of the way a band director/conductor guides the musicians.
5. Why does Eru keep some of the history of this world to himself? And why does the vision end particularly before the Dominion of Men?
I think I caught this yesterday when I was doing a quick read through. Thought--hey, that's about when LotR ends. Maybe this is related somehow to the concept of Men testing the boundaries, questioning, etc. as opposed to Elves--who don't--so much.
6. When the Valar move into this new world Ilúvatar is no longer mentioned as taking any part in the story. Why?
Hmmm...left the book at home. Will have to reread/think this one.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Aug 10 2009, 7:32pm
Post #5 of 38
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As I have sung in choirs and choruses for many years, the description of the Music here has some personal sonorities.
1. Why does Eru have two names?
2. The narrator tells us that in Arda he's called Ilúvatar, so where is the narrator if not in Arda?
In addition to Curious's answer, I note that virtually everyone and everything in Tolkien has at least two names, sometimes several. Part of this is because there are usually at least two languages in play, as well as customary nicknames developed over the ages. In the Primary world, we have God, Jehovah, Allah, and a bunch more.
3. At first the Ainur sing with Eru only alone or in small groups. What do these smaller arrangements accomplish?
When a chorus is learning new music, it's often helpful for singers to practice alone and within parts (soprano, alto, etc.). It's a good way to focus on one's own role, with less interference from the other parts. Also, in practice the chorus is accompanied by a piano, even though the eventual performance will be with full orchestra.
4. How does he start a new theme within the music by just holding up his hand?
I think this is partly a figurative image. But there are choral exercises in which the director starts each section off with a note in a chord and then moves individual sections up or down with hand motions. Presumably Eru has exceptional communication skills.
5. Why does Eru keep some of the history of this world to himself? And why does the vision end particularly before the Dominion of Men?
It isn't necessary for all chorus members to know the details of the orchestral score. It may be helpful to see a piano reduction (to understand your cues), though. And it may be confusing to see parts of the score you aren't ready for yet.
Outside the story, I think Tolkien is leaving space for the biblical story of Man to coexist without conflict.
6. When the Valar move into this new world Ilúvatar is no longer mentioned as taking any part in the story. Why?
He has deployed His troops to do His work, and does not micromanage. He is still the ultimate authority, though, as we shall see.
The Rohirrim, by Peter Xavier Price
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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sador
Half-elven
Aug 10 2009, 8:10pm
Post #6 of 38
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1. Why does Eru have two names?
Language is imperfect, and names cannot truly describe their subject (well, perhaps very long names could, like in Entish); so different names describe Him by different attributes - like the Lord and G-d. Every language has several names, not only different languages and different religions (which is what Elizabeth was talking about).
2. The narrator tells us that in Arda he's called Ilúvatar, so where is the narrator if not in Arda?
Ilúvatar means 'Allfather' (or at least did in the early drafts of The Silmarillion; Tolkien's languages have changed over the years at least as much as his stories did) - which is the proper way for someone within Arda to relate to him.
Eru means 'the One' - and I agree with Curious that it is a way of distancing Eru from the Ainur.
3. At first the Ainur sing with Eru only alone or in small groups. What do these smaller arrangements accomplish?
I suppose these would account for the more simple, obvious harmonies to br found in the physical world.
4. How does he start a new theme within the music by just holding up his hand?
Wrong question.
The question should be: why is the starting of new themes described as his holding up his hand?
I suppose it is a conductor image.
5. Why does Eru keep some of the history of this world to himself?
Does he? Or are the Ainur so self absorbed, that they cannot comprehend all of it?
And why does the vision end particularly before the Dominion of Men?
Men are special, and their history will transcend the Natural World - which is all the Ainur can make.
In short, Men could be saved or damned.
6. When the Valar move into this new world Ilúvatar is no longer mentioned as taking any part in the story. Why?
He is, in 'Aule and Yavanna', and also in 'the Akallabeth'.
But I really love Curious' answer to your question! I can't better it.
"And melodies they taught to him/ And sages old him marvels told" - Bilbo's poem of Earendil.
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Curious
Half-elven
Aug 10 2009, 8:33pm
Post #7 of 38
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If the Vision does end prematurely,
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it's probably because the role of the Valar decreases over time, and the direct involvement of Eru increases over time, especially after the Eldar fade. But that theory is hardly definitive. The Music does not end prematurely, and it is unclear whether the Vision ends prematurely or not.
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batik
Tol Eressea
Aug 10 2009, 8:43pm
Post #8 of 38
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that "some have said" business, huh?
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Aug 10 2009, 9:11pm
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"Arda" refers to the Earth, or perhaps the solar system.
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This week: "Ainulindalë".
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Loresilme
Valinor
Aug 10 2009, 10:05pm
Post #10 of 38
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1. Why does Eru have two names?
To convey different aspects of being or essence.
2. The narrator tells us that in Arda he's called Ilúvatar, so where is the narrator if not in Arda?
I take this to mean that the narrator is in Arda, but is explaining that Iluvatar exists in other places beyond Arda and is called by other names in those places.
3. At first the Ainur sing with Eru only alone or in small groups. What do these smaller arrangements accomplish?
To establish each one's song / gift in relation to its source, Eru. And then to understand how it manifests in larger and larger arenas. One must be fully disciplined and able to hear one's own voice inside (physically and spiritually) most prominently first, in order for it to not get drowned out by the voices of others or the outside world.
4. How does he start a new theme within the music by just holding up his hand?
I would take this to mean the hand is symbolic of that part of the self which takes action, on the physical plane the hand is used to act, do and create; so on the level of Eru a new theme would flow from his hand.
5. Why does Eru keep some of the history of this world to himself? And why does the vision end particularly before the Dominion of Men?
Because the history of this world is the history of Arda and Men are not bound to Arda.
6. When the Valar move into this new world Ilúvatar is no longer mentioned as taking any part in the story. Why?
Because he created them with the ability to create as well, and at this time, he provided them the opportunity to go forth and create as he did, freely and of their own will.
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batik
Tol Eressea
Aug 10 2009, 10:09pm
Post #11 of 38
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I do tend to think of Valinor as "separate" from earth --as in the Valar (will) live (or moved to) here-- and the Elves came from there. Although I do understand that both are both on the same physical sphere, plane,... thing.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Aug 11 2009, 4:13am
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Is "Eru" a Quenya or Sindarin name?
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There's an appendix listing for er, meaning "one, alone", pointing also to the names Erchamion and Erebor, but I can't tell what language these are. And I wonder: did the Elves devise the name Ilúvatar for him before meeting the Valar or after?
How does he start a new theme within the music by just holding up his hand?
And why the left hand for the Second Theme and the right hand for the Third Theme? Of course all of this is metaphor created long afterward by the elves --if something can be said to happen "after" events in Eru's "Timeless Halls"-- to put very abstract concepts into personal terms, but still they must have had some reason for the choice. Are the Valar somehow "south" in opposition to the "north" of the Children?
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We're discussing The Silmarillion in the Reading Room, Aug. 9 - Mar 7. Please join the conversation!
This week: "Ainulindalë".
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Curious
Half-elven
Aug 11 2009, 4:30am
Post #13 of 38
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this website, which appears to be well researched, both Eru and Ilúvatar are Quenya.
The right hand is usually dominant, so perhaps the Third Theme more dominant than the Second.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Aug 11 2009, 4:38am
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Yes, Sindarin hasn't been invented yet.
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Of course, neither has Quenya, the Ainur just communicate by singing, by telepathy, or however gods communicate. But Quenya seems most appropriate for an origin myth, which would likely have been first recorded by the Noldor in Valinor and passed down thereafter.
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sador
Half-elven
Aug 11 2009, 6:41am
Post #15 of 38
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attributed also to the Rumil-Pengolod-Aelfwine tradition?
I suppose that would mean both names are Quenya, or at least Quenya forms of the Valian language (did Tolkien ever abandon the concepts in the Lhammas?).
"And melodies they taught to him/ And sages old him marvels told" - Bilbo's poem of Earendil.
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Curious
Half-elven
Aug 11 2009, 7:02am
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And now I've lost the website. But my Googling did indicate they were Quenya words.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 11 2009, 8:28am
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5. Why does Eru keep some of the history of this world to himself? And why does the vision end particularly before the Dominion of Men?
Maybe because it doesn't concern the Ainur/Valar - or, more particularly, men don't concern them. The vision was about the physical earth, the home for the Children, which some of the Ainur were to use their particular strengths and skills to create, once they had heard the themes and seen the vision.
6. When the Valar move into this new world Ilúvatar is no longer mentioned as taking any part in the story. Why?
I'm not sure that that's true. The themes, the music, the guiding vision all came from Ilúvatar, even the Ainur themselves, so it's still his work of art taking shape - 'the Music is over all'. And in later chapters he does take part when needed.
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a.s.
Valinor
Aug 11 2009, 11:01am
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How does He even have a hand to raise?
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4. How does he start a new theme within the music by just holding up his hand?
The whole of the story is metaphor, a lyrical depiction using limited human language (I mean, strictly speaking, the English Tolkien used to put the "old" stories down for us to read) to describe, or attempt to describe, the mystery at the heart of Creation. We might use any metaphor we like to describe our understanding of Creation, as one can readily see in our primary world!
We are all only attempting to describe what only God remembers, after all, using limited human language for limitless concepts beyond our capability of understanding.
5. Why does Eru keep some of the history of this world to himself?
No one but God can know the mind of God, not even the Ainur. God is God, a mystery too deep to fathom.
And besides, it makes for easier explainations of bad things that happen: "Oh well," she says, after the earthquake kills thousands, "No one knows the mind of God."
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.
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Twit
Lorien
Aug 11 2009, 12:52pm
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3. At first the Ainur sing with Eru only alone or in small groups. What do these smaller arrangements accomplish?
I thought it might be that each try out their own voice, gradually joining with other voices they like the sound of, to see what it might be like. Eventually they all join together in one big sing song. It is a reflection of how they work together in the more physical sense.
Is it like a campfire sing song or are they more like a proper choir? I like the image of them sat around a 'campfire' personally.
4. How does he start a new theme within the music by just holding up his hand?
Does he stop them like a conductor might, before allowing them to continue in a more pleasing way?
Or treating them like children, the shouting gets too much, he holds up his hand for quiet before encouraging a more acceptable level of noise. Anyway he created the ideas they are expressing so perhaps he sang to set them back on the right path.
5. Why does Eru keep some of the history of this world to himself?
Perhaps to retain some control over what happens. He can see that some one might cause problems, so perhaps this is his way of protecting this history. Maybe it is so they don't get bored, it keeps them on their toes-it doesn't work if everyone knows everything.
6. When the Valar move into this new world Ilúvatar is no longer mentioned as taking any part in the story. Why?
He has told them what he wants - now they should go and do it. Again I see the parent/teacher role of giving them certain guidlines and raw materials, they know what is expected in the end, and off they go.
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fairelvenlady
Rivendell
Aug 11 2009, 3:44pm
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Okay I haven't done much of this before but here I go .......
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1. Why does Eru have two names?
I think it's like what some of the others said having more than one name conveys different concepts and ideas about the person. It also conveys what different people think of them. For example the different names Aragorn has convey what people think about him. In his childhood he was thought of as the Hope (Estel) of men. In Bree he was thought of as the fast striding (Strider) Ranger. In Gondor at the end he was the ranger with the elfstone (Ellessar) necklace. it is similar for Eru. 2. The narrator tells us that in Arda he's called Ilúvatar, so where is the narrator if not in Arda?
Uhmmmm.... perhaps the author is a Plutonian?  3. Athink all the others ha first the Ainur sing with Eru only alone or in small groups. What do these smaller arrangements accomplish?
Well the text says that not one Ainur knew all of Ilúvatar's plan. So by singing their part separately at first the others were able to listen and learn more about how what they knew fit into the big picture and how they could fit better into the great harmony Ilúvatar had created. 4. How does he start a new theme within the music by just holding up his hand?
Since he is the Tolkien equivalent of God I don't think controlling the music with his hands is that much of a problem. 5. Why does Eru keep some of the history of this world to himself? And why does the vision end particularly before the Dominion of Men?
I'm not sure. I think all the others have good ideas though. 6. When the Valar move into this new world Ilúvatar is no longer mentioned as taking any part in the story. Why?
I like Curious's answer. He wasn't done taking part of the story he is still there, It's just that he's is working through his servants the Valar. Besides perhaps it is also him working in in the curious luck of a few Hobbits.
What happened when Legolas and Aragorn road with Eomer in the van.
Aragorn: Eomer, Legolas has his bow on my side of the seat!
Legolas: Well Aragorn keeps slapping me while practicing his "heroic" poses.
Eomer: Don't make me turn this van around.
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GaladrielTX
Tol Eressea
Aug 11 2009, 5:31pm
Post #21 of 38
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Unlike in our world (the English-speaking portion of it, anyway), in Tolkien’s works, names often have meanings. While many names in our world supposedly do have meanings, some obvious, like “Ruby” or “Rose”, many others don’t immediately bring the meaning to mind. (For example, "Jacob" means "holder of the heel" or "supplanter".) The meanings can get lost in the shifting of language or because they come from another language, and I suspect parents in RL do not often take into account the original meaning of the word when they name their children. Often, parents don’t even realize the meaning when they give the name, or they give it for other reasons than the meaning it has. A child could receive a name because an ancestor, an acquaintance of their parents, or even a famous person had it before them and the parents like the association or hope the child will emulate that person. Sometimes the parents choose or even make up a name just because they like the sound of it.
On the other hand, in Tolkien, names do have meanings (remember, we’re talking about Mr. Philolgy here!) and can serve as definitions, or the parent may attempt to predict (or promote) in the child the qualities inherent in the name they give. Because beings have many different qualities they can have multiple names, i.e., descriptions. Of course, Eru, a being with multiple attributes, does not have a parent to name Him. Presumably, He either declared his names to the Ainur and other, lesser beings or they chose to call Him by those names.
~~~~~~~~
The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
(This post was edited by GaladrielTX on Aug 11 2009, 5:33pm)
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Beren IV
Gondor
Aug 11 2009, 6:48pm
Post #22 of 38
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The Overdeity is the Overdeity
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1. Why does Eru have two names?
From what I can tell, Eru is a name and Ilúvitar is a title, not that there is a whole lot of difference when you're talking about an infinite, omniscient, and omnipotent being.
2. The narrator tells us that in Arda he's called Ilúvatar, so where is the narrator if not in Arda?
This is a puzzling line, I agree.
3. At first the Ainur sing with Eru only alone or in small groups. What do these smaller arrangements accomplish?
Getting them used to it all.
4. How does he start a new theme within the music by just holding up his hand?
It's metaphorical. Ilúvitar does not have hands in the sense that you and I do. He is bidding the Ainur to begin singing a new theme, and they begin.
5. Why does Eru keep some of the history of this world to himself?
Probably because he knows the Valar will mess with it. But if there is a part of the Music that they do not understand, then they cannot alter it.
6. When the Valar move into this new world Ilúvatar is no longer mentioned as taking any part in the story. Why?
Because he must.
It is clear that Ilúvitar intends for there to be conflict within Eä. If Ilúvitar were to intervene, then there would be no conflict. Therefore, Ilúvitar must keep His Divine Hands off, in order for His creations' deeds and actions to have meaning.
The paleobotanist is back!
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Pryderi
Rivendell
Aug 11 2009, 10:03pm
Post #23 of 38
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A general point before I tackle the questions. Men learn this myth from elves who "convert" them from their ignorant state. Elves must have learned it from the Valar as they were not there themselves at the time. So isn't this the Valar's (or more generally the Ainur's) story of Creation? When the Elves come along the Valar attempt to bring "enlightenment" to them and succeed at least with those who agree to make the trip to Valinor. This reads a bit to me like missionaries from a more advanced culture providing assistance, education and "enlightenment" to a recently discovered more primitive culture. The enlightenment includes, of course, the received creation myth but in our primary world missionaries' creation myths may not be true or, as I would prefer to put it, are indeed myths despite their deep significance. In that case is it necessary to see this as anything more than a deeply significant myth in Tolkien's secondary world? I think I would contend that for Tolkien this was "feigned myth" rather than his more famous "feigned history" and so I do not seek consistency within it on a rational level although it would of course have failed if it were not consistent on an emotional level.
Hmm... Hope that made sense. On to the questions:
Why does Eru have two names?
I can't help feeling that Tolkien is trying to hunt with the Judeo Christian hare whilst running with the Norse hounds. Not only do I feel that; I feel he succeeds marvellously.
The narrator tells us that in Arda he's called Ilúvatar, so where is the narrator if not in Arda?
I think the narrator is in the future and believes that "Allfather" is an inappropriate title because of his own Christian religious beliefs.
At first the Ainur sing with Eru only alone or in small groups. What do these smaller arrangements accomplish?
I like to think of Ulmo singing the sea by himself and of Manwe singing the air and the winds. But then they sing together of the rains and with Aule of the rivers that feed the seas and with Yavannah of the life giving water for the Olvar and the Kelvar. I think it is very beautiful.
How does he start a new theme within the music by just holding up his hand?
It works emotionally but not rationally. See above.
Why does Eru keep some of the history of this world to himself? And why does the vision end particularly before the Dominion of Men?
Eru wishes to endow them with "free will". If they know all the future how can they influence it? It is of course constrained because Eru retains the right to exercise his own free will.
When the Valar move into this new world Ilúvatar is no longer mentioned as taking any part in the story. Why?
I send my sons off into the hills hoping that they will learn by looking after themselves. Their story is no longer about me. They have to sort themselves out. But I am scurrying around in the background trying to check that they are ok, putting things in place for their return etc. And if all fails I'll call in the rescue; Helicopters and all!
Hope at least some of that made sense.
Pryderi.
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Aug 11 2009, 10:52pm
Post #24 of 38
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1. Why does Eru have two names?
Because he's too big for one? Because they express different aspects of him? Because different people came up with different names for him?
2. The narrator tells us that in Arda he's called Ilúvatar, so where is the narrator if not in Arda?
I get the impression that elves here simply repeat what they have heard from the Valar.
3. At first the Ainur sing with Eru only alone or in small groups. What do these smaller arrangements accomplish?
They're starting with the building-blocks of the world to come. One, for instance, might sing of Deer, another of Eagle, still another of Pine. Next thing you know, they're jamming together on a forest theme. Yet it's still only a small motif of a larger concert not yet imagined by the Ainur. It will take Illuvatar's conducting to create the great symphony of Ecology.
4. How does he start a new theme within the music by just holding up his hand?
Short answer: He's God. Long answer: It's just a symbol-perception for a subtler complex of visions and grace sent out to each of the Ainur, nudging their music into a different direction.
5. Why does Eru keep some of the history of this world to himself? And why does the vision end particularly before the Dominion of Men?
First, because the thoughts of God are much too huge and complex for lesser beings to contain, even in tandem. Second, who really wants to tip his hand, knowing that an enemy has, to varying degrees, corrupted or compromised a number of his followers? Third, the free will and resiliance of humankind introduces too many random factors for all but the mind of God to calculate in.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Aug 11 2009, 10:54pm
Post #25 of 38
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I missed the last question:
6. When the Valar move into this new world Ilúvatar is no longer mentioned as taking any part in the story. Why?
He's already done his bit. He's in the past and future, and it's all one to him. Let the kids discover how it all unfolds for themselves.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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