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Sunflower
Valinor

Jul 22 2009, 6:31am

Post #1 of 69 (1049 views)
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Legacies Can't Post

Okay...this is to continue a discussion/dabate that Earl, Kangi Ska and I were having in the "Rebuilding Hobbiton" thread about the issue of books vs film adaptations and what if anything could or should be done to keep the prominence of the literary sources of fiom adaptations alive in the public consciousness.

It began as a friendly debate over whether a museum should be built in nZ to house the LOTR film props and costumes/artifiacts. There's been some interesting ideas posted...see pgs 2 and 3 of that thread. (Earl? Maybe you can link to it? I don 't know how.)

Should a museum or permanent home for the LOTR artifacts be built? Should it even be built in NZ? So far, the Tolkien Estate has stoped any attempt at construction of a permanent homr for LOTR film things. Meanwhile, Kangi tells us, the TE has been very reluctant to open up certan things to the public.
Since so many were informal, on napkins, papers etc, I can see why the secrecy. But the copies?

I suggested larger issues as what it means to be an author in an age when the Film Director is worshipped, and "literary books" are an endangered species...should they have to get out there and "work" to keep themselves in the public eye. when their work is turned into such a blockbuster that they risk "losing" it to a film director.

Earl, if you could repost your last comment here, that would be great. Or link to it.)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jul 22 2009, 11:55am

Post #2 of 69 (719 views)
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A Tolkien Movie Museum [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that it would be wonderful if the Hobbiton site could be conserved in its completed form. I am sure that it would be advantageous to the farm family and the country's tourist industry to keep it complete. It might even be a good place to build the museum to display artifacts created for the trilogy as well as those that will be made for The Hobbit I &II. I want to see these wonderful things preserved for posterity. I would rather not see them auctioned off to the highest bidder or shuffled off into private collections or destroyed for whatever the reason.
Furthermore, these artifacts are in New Zealand, were produced in New Zealand and rightfully should stay there. This has no bearing on the locations that inspired the writing of the books or the preservation of sites related to the life of J. R. R. Tolkien. Everything deserves its rightful recognition and necessary preservation.

There are those who take exception to this idea. At the 50TH Anniversary of the publishing of “The Lord of the Rings” conference at Marquette University in Milwaukee WI. in 2004. I sensed a lot of angst toward the "Movie People" by the book purists. It was as if they feared that the movie popular culture would overwhelm their scholarly endeavors. Some of them expressed their wishes that the films had never been brought into being. (Though this animosity was far from universal). They had fought this battle before. In the 1960s the “Hippies and Counter Culture” stole Middle Earth which made justifying the serious study of Tolkien’s work exceedingly difficult.

To me it is as if The Professor was too successful at his great attempt at sub-creation. His creation has become a great myth for the modern world. No one can control or own this creation. It was placed out into the World with great love and care by its creator. The story and substance of its creation has been divulged by Christopher and consumed and commented on in innumerable books and scholarly papers. It is at the roots of "Magic" and most of the roll playing video games that are played in every country. To say that only rural England has the right to represent Middle Earth is folly. Middle Earth lives in the hearts and spirits of all of us touched by its wondrous vision and the truths it contains. It did not die when the early critics attempted to assassinate it. The movies will not kill it, they only lead more people to read the original.

Kangi Ska


Earl
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 22 2009, 12:04pm

Post #3 of 69 (698 views)
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Links... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Sunflower, yes, that discussion was indeed interesting, and I learnt something I did not previously know Smile

Here's a couple of helpful links to the posts you're talking about:
Just in case any newbies are looking in, take note that viewing the above posts in threaded mode will let you follow the conversation more easily.

Pssst... Sunflower, it's very easy to link to posts. When you see a post you want to link to, click the "Copy shortcut" hyperlink that is present below the poster's avatar/pic for that post. Then select a piece of text in *your* post that you're composing, click the last button provided in the editor (it looks like a link of chains and is called "Link"), and in the pop-up that opens up, delete the "http://" that you see in the entry field and paste the shortcut you just copied (do this by either right-clicking and selecting "Paste" or simply use the keyboard shortcut Ctrl + v). You're done Cool

"Crows and Gibbets! What is the House of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek and their brats roll around on the floor with their dogs! You are but a lesser son of greater sires."


Earl
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 22 2009, 12:09pm

Post #4 of 69 (713 views)
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My last comment from that thread... [In reply to] Can't Post

Entmaiden informed me that microfiche versions of Tolkien's works are accessible at Marquette University and I responded...

Well, I wasn't aware of that... and there's my point. Without the right advertising, the general public may not even be aware that such things exist and are accessible, and without an event dedicated to Tolkien's works, not many people might be expected to actually go to the Marquette University on their own.

Also, I did not mean the original manuscripts should be made available for people to hold and touch. I meant something more along the lines of framed displays with computerized scans that people can peruse.

So good to know microfiche versions are indeed available.


Needless to say, I'm in favour of a museum, a permanent home, for the movies' props. And I'm also in favour of more Tolkien manuscripts being made easily available (in digital form) Wink

"Crows and Gibbets! What is the House of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek and their brats roll around on the floor with their dogs! You are but a lesser son of greater sires."


Son of Gondor
The Shire

Jul 22 2009, 2:43pm

Post #5 of 69 (703 views)
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I'd say [In reply to] Can't Post

They should build a Lord of the Rings movies museum in New Zealand, and a Lord of the Rings books museum in England.

I don't really understand why Tolkien Estate always seems to try stopping everything related to the movies? I'm pretty sure that if they (and not Saul Zentz) had the rights on LotR movies, there would be none made as we speak...

What are they afraid of? That the Movie museum will be more popular than theirs? It will happen, whether they like it or not, because they have an elitist point of vue; as if LotR was some kind of "Bible" that only the Initiates can read, understand, discuss, illustrate, or film. Anyone else (unless they have their blessing) is not qualified to do anything related to the books, and would debase them...

They should've done something about it years ago! I don't mean going the 'Star Wars' way (merchandizing all the way) necessarily, but like it has been said before, bring JRR Tolkien, his books, and its history to the awareness of the public!

Now, it is not too late for them, but their museum will never be as popular as the Movie one, because, to many people, the movies were their introduction to Middle-Earth.

Well, that's my two cents. :)


(This post was edited by Son of Gondor on Jul 22 2009, 2:45pm)


Hellmistress
Lorien


Jul 22 2009, 2:50pm

Post #6 of 69 (724 views)
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As a museum professional ... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I have to say that any kind of permanent repository for props etc. from the film would be a costly endeavour indeed, not just in the setting up of such an institution but the (very) expensive maintenance it would entail. First of all, movie props are not made to last - as someone who, like GdT, is lucky enough to own props and some prosthetic designs from films, it is a real problem keeping latex appliances and suchlike in anything like decent condition. The glues etc. used to apply these prosthetics are highly destructive, and do not treat the body of the appliance well long term. The sheer thought of trying to keep displays of such items in anything like good condition on a large scale would cost a bomb, to say the least and would probably give some poor conservator nightmares just at the thought of it. You're talking stable levels of light (HIGHLY destructive to textiles, manuscript materials, latex and the like) and humidity, with cases these days costing a small fortune. It would mean a very specialised environment for display just to begin with, and the storage areas would also have to be maintained at correct environmental levels.

Scripts etc. are also a pain in the bahookie, because they are also not printed on material designed to last. The beggars fade at the drop of a hat, the paper is usually poor quality and to display them you would probably have to have very low lux levels in cases just for starters. They would be a wonderful temporary display, especially an actor's/director's copy with all of the notes and so on in the margins (I have a few, and they are fascinating things). It's easier to display a 500-year-old Bible than it would be to display a 2010 script. This is where digital scanning comes in, obviously, so that you can peruse the material on-line or on an electronic display in a museum, but I have to say folks don't take to it as well as seeing the real thing. The whole point of museums is the immediacy, the actual presence of the object in front of you.

There are countless pits of despair to fall into with such a project .... BUT .... caveats aside, IF it can be done properly, and IF the money is there to fund it long-term (including premises, staff and storage facilities), and IF you can overcome all of the physical and legal complexities of such a project, I think it would be a fantastic thing to see. And if it ever comes to pass and you need a movie-geek Documentation Officer/Registrar, give me a yell, will ya???

HM


(This post was edited by Hellmistress on Jul 22 2009, 2:52pm)


Tim
Tol Eressea


Jul 22 2009, 8:13pm

Post #7 of 69 (666 views)
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Tangibility [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the edge a museum of movie artifacts would have is the "tangibility" factor. Looking at historical texts about the book is one thing, but much of the work on a novel is internal, is inside the author's mind. It's impossible to touch and feel that.
There's also the celebrity hero-worship factor "ooooo Sean Bean actually wore that costume?!"
So yeah, I agree a movie museum or something like a Universal Studios setup would draw more attention. As I stated in a previous post however, it's possible to integrate the book with any movie made based on the novel. There's no logical reason the two can't be "married" so that audiences of either museum or display are made well aware of the novel's content and it be given the credit for movie moments or prop detail. I've watched several movies then that moved me to reading the books they were based on. More often than not the book is better. Sometimes not, I actually enjoyed the Bourne movies more than the novels.

I have a very sexy learning disability.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jul 22 2009, 8:43pm

Post #8 of 69 (681 views)
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Archival Problems [In reply to] Can't Post

I am married to a person who works for a gallery support group and am aware of the multitude of problems involved in preserving artifacts that were designed to be ephemeral. Those are technical issues that do not apply to such things as swords, armor and ceramics. However there are other issues involved in preserving & displaying these types of things.
Money would be necessary for all of the reasons that you note and money exists. Corporate money, public funding and fund raising. I would gladly subscribe to such a facility and pay dues though I might never get a chance to visit. I would just be glad that it existed. I am sure there are thousands if not millions of people all over the world that would feel the same way.
PJ, GdT, Weta and company (not to mention the film companies involved) might all be interested in founding and funding such a facility. Even the country of New Zealand might be willing to help. It might be a good Idea to try and find out.

I recognize the issues involving the Tolkien estate may be insurmountable, but they also may not be. It should be explored.

Kangi Ska


Sunflower
Valinor

Jul 22 2009, 8:53pm

Post #9 of 69 (681 views)
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Amazing [In reply to] Can't Post

HM, I knew of your expertise in archives and archival preservation, as well as some textiles (FYI, folks, HM is an expert on the Napoleonic Era, it is a favorite topic of study for her), but didn't know you'd had actual Museum experience. Where did you come by it?
Yes, I'm sure if a Tolkien or film adaptation museum ever went up, they'd LOVE your help...but then, we'd have to add all of PJ's and Guillermo's other works too, if it were a movie museum:)

There are cases of move props being of excellent quailty and which are permanently preserved. The production values for Jean-Jacques Annaud'd adaptation of "The Name Of The Rose" were sort of like a precursor to films like Titanic and LOTR in terms of quailty and authenticity. Several smaller props, such as the exquisite handcrafted pottery and lamps, were copied on medivial museaum pices and today, indeed, are housed in museums all over Europe.
(I'd love to know where. HM, maybe Valaria has info on this?)

This leads me to something else I thinking about yesterday: sonce movies are the new great sotrytelling medium of the age, I wish there could be a way for the best of the fim sets to be preserved. Film sets are flimsy things also, but I'd imagine they'd be easier to preserve than texts or textiles. Watching some of the old clasics, I am so sorry that these sets are not recreated in buildings...or parts of them anyway. Many of them are historical. The ultimate of course was DW Griffith's "Intolerance" Baylon set, which actually stood there almost another decade and became a fire hazard in LA. But oh, how I'd have loved to see that spinning Sundial.
Or the elepahnts. And the 1960 Cleopatra set in Rome--people came from all over to tour the film sets for those. And the sets in Thialiand showing the grand palaces of medivial Siam for "The LEgend of Suriyotai." And the most recent example: the Harry Potter sets. Warner BRothers has kept the Great Hall set intact at Elstree Studios since 1999 and it will have been intact and used for 11 yrs for all 8 films. A record, I think. I'd LOVE to have the Great Hall of Hogwarts kept as a permenent attraction--I'd tour it!

The problem, though, is as you say HM< today we do not think in terms of quailty or endurance. Our architecural standards are so shockingly poor. Concrete constructions built by the ancient Romans still stand 2000 yrs later, while our concrete Insterstate Highway System is falling apart after less than 50 yrs. It's not that the Romans were such geniuses (well, in some aspects they were), but the fact that they had different values. Their roads and bridges were important, so they built them to last. Wheras we, if we really wanted to, would be able, with our technological knowhow, to do the same thing.


PS thanks for the advice on linking , Earl. I'll try it sometimeSmile


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Jul 22 2009, 8:55pm)


Sunflower
Valinor

Jul 22 2009, 9:38pm

Post #10 of 69 (661 views)
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Exactly. [In reply to] Can't Post

There are ways to do this....this is what I was saying in the other thread.

And speakng of traveling exhibitis, look whatis going on right now for Harry Potter:

http://www.mugglenet.com

This has been going on for each of the films. Clever, eh? (though I daresay the author needs little exposure and is doing quite well on her own..esp with the Theme Park going up in Orlando....


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jul 22 2009, 9:43pm

Post #11 of 69 (650 views)
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An Uneasy Relationship [In reply to] Can't Post

I have thought a bit about this Museum Idea and i want to keep the discussion grounded at a level that it could actually come about. A grand Museum of Cinema would be wonderful but I think we should be looking at something more like a Museum of New Zealand Film or just a Lord of the Rings / Hobbit Museum on the the scale of the traveling Prop show but at a permanent location. There a thousand different ways this could be organized with the possible inclusion of video games and items from popular culture and the earlier attempts at film. The literary side should be recognized as it was in the special materials on the DVDs and the professor should hold a place of honor in the displays but it would be about the movies. Another track might be the fan base as with "Ringers" the documentary.

Kangi Ska


Donry
Tol Eressea


Jul 22 2009, 9:45pm

Post #12 of 69 (643 views)
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Some great ideas... [In reply to] Can't Post

I would love to see a museum of the literary stuff in England, and some preservations of the movie sets and the like in NZ. It would be nice to seem them all in the 'locale' in which they happened. However, I can also see the expense of getting something like this off the ground and then maintaining it. I would be concerned that the NZ site might see attendance drop over the years, as the movies age. Whereas the England one I could see lasting longer due to the longevity the books have had in general. Couple with the idea the English site would be a Tolkien exhibit and not just a LOTR museum. Would it be a possibility that if the NZ site's popularity faded too much to keep it running (financially speaking) to transport as much of the inventory as possible to the English site? Hypothetical situations of course, but I like the ideas of both.

What's the matter, James? No glib remark? No pithy comeback?"


Hellmistress
Lorien


Jul 22 2009, 9:56pm

Post #13 of 69 (645 views)
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Well ... [In reply to] Can't Post

Ceramics, arms and armour create their own problems - a 17th century samurai sword can be a nightmare because of the variety of mediums used in its construction - ivory, wood, shagreen (sharkskin), gold or silver wire, textiles ... even the beautifully folded steel with its hamon (the wavy pattern on the blade caused by the master swordsmith as he heated, folded and tempered the blade over and over again) can cause any conservator a headache. We don't even touch the metal blades without cotton gloves on because the smears of oily fingers on the finish can leave permanent fingerprints. Persian armour is gilded ... lamellar armour can be metal or leather, with leather or textile bindings ... Scottish basket-hilted swords have leather or suede linings that are incredibly fragile ... and do you display a 1796 pattern light cavalry sword in or out of its scabbard? In fact, do you store it in its scabbard? What happens if a tiny bit of rust gets damp and spreads, causing the blade to rust solid in the scabbard? We have an armguard from the Moghul Empire with exquisite engraving on the outer surface, but the chain mail attached to the inner arm cover and covering the back of the hand is rusted to bits. Now, the problem is, do we remove the rust? How was the rust caused? As it came from a battlefield, was it caused by the blood of its owner? In which case does it it stay as part of the history of the object? The constant ethical dilemmas in museum curacy are immeasurable. Anyway, that is a moot point, fascinating though the discussion is ...

As for funding etc ... I'd like to tell you about a friend of mine, an extraordinary man by the name of Bob Burns. Bob lives in Hollywood, and is now in his seventies - and for most of his working life was involved in the movie industry as an actor, FX supervisor, makeup artist and puppeteer, being involved in some of cinema's most fascinating films. He is also an avid collector and is one of the world's experts on the Sci-Fi genre. Bob's collection is world famous to geeky fans, owning such amazing artefacts as the suit worn by Ben Chapman in The Creature from the Black Lagoon, many of the original gremlins, and the original armature created by Willis O'Brien for King Kong (1933). He brought the armature to PJ's premiere of King Kong - I believe there are photos out there of PJ with the armature.

Bob's collection is kept in his basement. It is beautifully cared-for and visited every year by many enthusiasts, but he has no funding of any kind, or any official support from the industry. He maintains it himself with the help of family and friends. Several years ago his basement flooded and those friends all pulled together to rescue the collection. Luckily nothing was damaged, but I often worry about what will happen to the collection after Bob has gone. And that magnificent collection is slap-bang in the middle of Hollywood, where most of these iconic films were made, and covers eighty years of film-making history.

While preserving props and things from the Tolkien movies is an admirable thought and I'm all for it, it would be sad to think that the LotR artifacts get piles of moolah when an extraordinary collection has a doubtful future at best, even when it is in the home of fantasy film making. Also, while a museum could possibly ride the wake of popularity for quite a while, you can't guarantee that it will remain so - the biggest caveat of all to these projects is maintaining sustainability. Regular museums find it tough - we have 12 museums that we maintain with a core staff of six. Our funding has been cut by 30% since 1996 and our staff halved. And that is a story you will hear even from some of our most prestigious museums in the UK. Funding is often reliant on a number of stringent conditions if you are applying for formal grants from museum bodies, and corporate funding is often only forthcoming if the project is high-profile over a prolonged period.

Friends and volunteers can be a wonderful resource, but that effort has to be two-way - our volunteers are amazing and do stirling work, sometimes grubby (you try cleaning the pigeon-crap off thousands of 19th century glass plates found in an attic without lifting the emulsion off the plate) and boring, and we, as a service, have to make sure they are valued and treasured. We can't afford to send them for training, or pay their expenses, and we can only expect them to do so much for nothing. Friends of a museum are a fantastic resource, but again,often can only do so much, and their fund-raising efforts have to be guided by professional advice - and sometimes their wishes can be at odds with what the museum needs most. Conserving and digitising a rare collection of Japanese wood prints may be thrilling and be a lovely publicity resource for the museum, but not much good when you're desperate for the same amount of money to buy a pile of archival tissue paper and a bunch of textile boxes for your collection of 19th century underwear - something nowhere near as prestigious or as exciting.

ALL of this has to be balanced out and thought through. I know I sound like I'm pouring water on the idea, but believe me, all I'm trying to do is illustrate problems that museum professionals have been dealing with for years. Forewarned is forearmed, so they say. With all of that in mind, however, there is still nothing quite like a challenge, and it would be amazing, wouldn't it?

HM

PS - Sunflower, the artefacts created by the artisans for NAME OF THE ROSE ... I think one or two of them have been kept as modern copies in European museums, but I'm not sure where. The illustrated manuscripts in NotR were faithful copies done by professional illuminators, using Books of Hours, Bestiaries etc., and as far as I know some copies were retained by Jean-Jacques Annaud and others. The props I would most like to have are the Book of Crossroads from PAN'S LABYRINTH and the illuminated book from HELLBOY II: THE GOLDEN ARMY. The map-seller's shop in the Troll Market was astonishing - wonderful, arcane maps created especially for the film, and I would have given my eye-teeth for just ONE of them. Sigh. I just stood there on the set and sighed,blinking away tears. Awesome. Just AWESOME.


(This post was edited by Hellmistress on Jul 22 2009, 10:02pm)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jul 22 2009, 10:17pm

Post #14 of 69 (606 views)
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So [In reply to] Can't Post

If we can't save the Spotted Owls we should not try to save the whales.

Kangi Ska


Hellmistress
Lorien


Jul 22 2009, 10:28pm

Post #15 of 69 (628 views)
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So [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
If we can't save the Spotted Owls we should not try to save the whales.



Each has equal merit in the eyes of the conservationist - but one is small, spotty and lives in a hole, and the other is huge, breathtaking and spectacular. But just because you're small, spotty and live in a hole doesn't make you any the less worthy.

Personally, as a professional and if I had to choose between the two, I would choose Bob's collection in an instant because it is so broad in scope and illustrates 80 years of film history. For me, as much as I love the LotR movies and will adore THE HOBBIT, when it comes to what is more important in the history of film-making ... Bob's collection is second-to-none. But probaby the Tolkien idea would have more going for it, at least in the short-term because it is modern, popular and phenomenally successful. But many of the props will be kept at least by WETA and Spectral Motion (and DDT Efectos Especiales if they're involved). Bob's stuff lives a precarious existence and has a doubtful future.
HM


(This post was edited by Hellmistress on Jul 22 2009, 10:34pm)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jul 22 2009, 10:36pm

Post #16 of 69 (624 views)
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So We Should [In reply to] Can't Post

do what lies within our ability to accomplish and attempt to accomplish the improbable.
Its a long journey from the Shire to the Cracks of Doom.

Kangi Ska


(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Jul 22 2009, 10:36pm)


Hellmistress
Lorien


Jul 22 2009, 10:41pm

Post #17 of 69 (626 views)
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In which case ... [In reply to] Can't Post

... it is well within the realms of possibility to save Bob Burn's collection for posterity - whereas to have a museum dedicated only to Tolkien films is a wee bit improbable, but not insurmountable. One should be saved and the other could be saved, but isn't imperative.

HM

In Reply To
do what lies within our ability to accomplish and attempt to accomplish the improbable.
Its a long journey from the Shire to the Cracks of Doom.



Tim
Tol Eressea


Jul 22 2009, 10:41pm

Post #18 of 69 (628 views)
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Self Perpetuation and Incentive for More [In reply to] Can't Post

Great posts regarding the difficulties in preserving and funding preservation of artifacts (movie props, etc.).
I think the TE and movies under is license should be working together to keep the work (LoTR, the Hobbit, etc.) alive and well in public thought.
Think about it, it serves everyone's needs. If properly branded and integrated, both the novel and movie adaptations can boost each others coffers and keep interest in the work(s) alive. AND, if there's a service for the fans to have even more access to the works through museums (or other live displays) perhaps funding them would be incentive to keep producing various entertainment based on the novels.
I think I'm just saying the same thing over and over again. I guess it all boils down to my point of view is this - I'm baffled that the TE doesn't take a wider view of this situation. Instead of making themselves Victims of a movie industry why not Use it to stay in control? The TE could instead keep any extensions of the novels
a) in the spirit of the original work
b) lucrative
c) continually re-introduced to new generations of audience.

I have a very sexy learning disability.


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 22 2009, 10:54pm

Post #19 of 69 (614 views)
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I've seen the HP exhibit [In reply to] Can't Post

and while there are many costumes worn by the cast, a great deal of the exhibit is reproduction - not actual props. It's very nice, but not close to museum quality.

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.

`Are these magic cloaks? ' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.

`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.



NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 22 2009, 11:05pm

Post #20 of 69 (609 views)
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I support what you're saying. [In reply to] Can't Post

Anyone who works in preservation has to consider the long-term; whether the items being preserved will have an audience in 25, 50, 100, 200 years. The LOTR props will not have that much staying power. While the books might remain popular, it's unlikely to think that movie props will be that interesting to future audiences. Your friend Bob's collection seems like more of an historical archive and should be preserved - props and costumes for three movies, no matter how popular, probably not.

I do like the idea of traveling exhibits, like the one for LOTR and the current Harry Potter exhibit. I think there was a traveling Star Wars exhibit, but I've never seen it. The traveling exhibits are the best vehicle to give people the opportunity to connect more closely to the movies through seeing the props and costumes. Their primary value is that connection, and not as a historical archive.

I have seen the LOTR and HP exhibits, and they're great, but their appeal is ephemeral. In 40 years, when the next generation doesn't remember the opening of the movies, no one will care that Liv Tyler or Orlando Bloom once wore a particular costume. They'll both be old, if not dead. Museums are built to house artifacts for much longer than 40 years and are not the appropriate place for movie ephemera.

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.

`Are these magic cloaks? ' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.

`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.



NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jul 22 2009, 11:05pm

Post #21 of 69 (632 views)
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Diversion of Wealth [In reply to] Can't Post

Bob Burn's collection can be and should be saved conserved and displayed. This will happen or it will be sold piecemeal to the highest bidders. This is sad and would be a great loss of popular culture history. People like George Lucas, Steve Spielberg and even Peter Jackson should be interested in this and they have the contacts and the means to see that this happens. Something needs to happen to make them and others aware of the situation and encourage them to act.

Now...about a small facility dedicated to the preservation and display of materials related to New Zealand Cinema including five films based on works by J. R. R. Tolkien...I believe that it is possible, reasonable and would benefit the New Zealand tourist trade, the fan base of the many "made in New Zealand" films and the growing Film Industry in New Zealand. These people need to know that action is needed.


Kangi Ska


carrioncrow
Lorien

Jul 22 2009, 11:28pm

Post #22 of 69 (613 views)
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permanence [In reply to] Can't Post

they seem permanent on screen, as if they were always there and ought always remain. But that a real illusion when it comes to the prop material of films...even of film itself...even of digital information. If you want to 'preserve' the props you might have to actually recreate them even if you have the original in hand. Know what i mean?

it reminds me of the 'white City' of the 1892 Chicago Worlds Fair...it was a sensation at the time and exerted real cultural influence (for and against) ...but it was really little more than a stage set and very little of it remains.

Oddly enough, there is a film in production 'Devil in the White City' that may end up having to recreate all that lost stuff...at least in a virtual world.


(This post was edited by carrioncrow on Jul 22 2009, 11:30pm)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jul 22 2009, 11:38pm

Post #23 of 69 (617 views)
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Intellectual Property [In reply to] Can't Post

Intellectual Property as a concept / rule of law a may become the greatest impediment to cultural advancement in the history of humanity. If thoughts can be owned then nothing can grow without the permission of those whose primary involvement is to gain wealth from the ownership. Use of the thought without proper permission (which may include remuneration) is a thought crime. Capitalism would turn all things into commodities from which to derive profit.

Now the question is: Is the Tolkien Estate's primary goal profit or preservation or the creation of a monument to their patriarch, or is it a bit of all of these? I would say all, but in the case of Christopher, building a monument to his father is primary. Here lies the real challenge to your vision of enlightened capitalism recognizing its own interests.

Kangi Ska


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 22 2009, 11:43pm

Post #24 of 69 (611 views)
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Yes - the White City is a great example [In reply to] Can't Post

The buildings were never meant to be permanent, but they looked lovely. Movie props are constructed to give the illusion or permanence, but they were not built to last.

I remember a discussion about the swords used in the LOTR films. They were carefully made, but they were much lighter than an actual piece so that the actors could wield them realistically. They were not intended to be preserved.

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.

`Are these magic cloaks? ' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.

`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.



NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jul 22 2009, 11:45pm

Post #25 of 69 (606 views)
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Sad [In reply to] Can't Post

With a $5,000,000,000 gross over the 6 movies to date, you think they could have done better than an on-the-cheep exploitative exhibit.

Kangi Ska

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