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A Thief in the Night -- Part 2
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weaver
Half-elven

Jul 8 2009, 4:07am

Post #1 of 33 (1003 views)
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A Thief in the Night -- Part 2 Can't Post

In this post, we'll take a look at the opening of the chapter:

"Now the days passed slowly and wearily. Many of the dwarves spent their time piling and ordering the treasure; and now Thorin spoke of the Arkenstone of Thrain, and bade them eagerly to look for it in every corner.

"For the Arkenstone of my father," he said, "is worth more than a river of gold in itself, and to me it is beyond price. That stone of all the treasure I name unto myself, and I will be avenged on anyone who finds it and withholds it."

1. Why does Tolkien use such formal language here?

2. Is Thorin a dwarvish version of Feanor?

"Bilbo heard these words and he grew afraid, wondering what would happen, if the stone was found--wrapped in an old bundle of tattered oddments that he used as a pillow. All the same he did not speak of it, for as the weariness of the days grew heavier, the beginnings of a plan had come into his little head."

3. What kind of “beginnings” is Bilbo considering at this point?

4. Is "weariness" a good motivator for action? What else might be motivating Bilbo's thinking?

"Things had gone on like this for some time, when the ravens brought news that Dain and more than five hundred dwarves, hurrying from the Iron Hills, were now within about two days' march of Dale, coming from the North-East.

"But they cannot reach the Mountain unmarked," said Roäc, "and I fear less (sic) there be battle in the valley. I do not call this counsel good. Though they are a grim folk, they are not likely to overcome the host that besets you; and even if they did so, what will you gain? Winter and snow is hastening behind them. How shall you be fed without the friendship and goodwill of the lands about you? The treasure is likely to be your death, though the dragon is no more."

5. What makes Roäc qualified to give Thorin such advice?

6. Is Roäc’s last line a prophecy or a foreshadowing?

"But Thorin was not moved. "Winter and snow will bite both men and elves," he said, "and they may find their dwelling in the waste grievous to bear. With my friends behind them and winter upon them, they will perhaps be in softer mood to parley with."

7. Whose reasoning do you prefer – Roäc's or Thorin's? Do they both make good arguments, or does one of them make more sense to you?

Weaver





batik
Tol Eressea


Jul 8 2009, 5:06am

Post #2 of 33 (748 views)
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and out he went... [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Why does Tolkien use such formal language here?
This seems to be Thorin's 'I'm serious here folks, pay attention!' manner of speaking.

2. Is Thorin a dwarvish version of Feanor?
Hmmm...I'm not going to make a call on this...need to read The Sil again, plus that reminds me a little of myself with regards to my *good* copies of TH and LotR. Shocked

3. What kind of “beginnings” is Bilbo considering at this point?
..in a hole in the wall sneaked a Hobbit???

4. Is "weariness" a good motivator for action? What else might be motivating Bilbo's thinking?
Yes. Elvish song and wine?






Twit
Lorien

Jul 8 2009, 10:22am

Post #3 of 33 (752 views)
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here goes [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Why does Tolkien use such formal language here?

So that we all pay attention and drop everything to look. (All the while helping hide Bilbo's guilt, because what-ever we think of his actions morally, we don't want him found out)

3. What kind of “beginnings” is Bilbo considering at this point?

I would guess he is putting the request of payment from Bard and the value of the Arkenstone together and thinking maybe he could get home a little quicker if he helps out.

4. Is "weariness" a good motivator for action? What else might be motivating Bilbo's thinking?

I see this weariness as boredom mixed with guilt and fear. So yes, a very good motivator. He wants to rid himself of the Arkenstone and the guilt of hiding it. It reminds me of the inactivity in the tunnel, you get to the point where you want to do something, anything.

5. What makes Roäc qualified to give Thorin such advice?

Some one needs to point out the flaws in Thorin's plans. The raven is the voice of common sense and reason and highlights how far Thorin has fallen under the spell of the (tainted) treasure. We need to see his fall before he can redeem himself later, and so Bilbo can redeem himself now.


6. Is Roäc’s last line a prophecy or a foreshadowing?

It's a warning greed isn't good, hiding yourself up here beyond reason for the sake of the treasure will end badly. (See Smaug) It adds to what Bard says earlier about eating gold.


7. Whose reasoning do you prefer – Roäc's or Thorin's? Do they both make good arguments, or does one of them make more sense to you?

I prefer Roac's myself, although what Thorin says is true. Only I'm sure the Elves can cope, and I would guess that they can all get supplies up the river.

(how did you manage to get the 'a' in Roac's name btw?)


Curious
Half-elven


Jul 8 2009, 11:03am

Post #4 of 33 (734 views)
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Thoughts. [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Why does Tolkien use such formal language here?

He's taking a formal oath.

2. Is Thorin a dwarvish version of Feanor?

No. There's one point of comparison -- Feanor took an oath regarding the Silmarils, Thorin takes one regarding the Arkenstone -- but many points of contrast. Feanor's oath was far more terrible, as were the consequences. And Feanor had less right to withhold the Silmarils, since the light in them could have restored the Two Trees.


3. What kind of “beginnings” is Bilbo considering at this point?

He's not considering beginnings, he's beginning considering. We will see the plan as he executes it.

4. Is "weariness" a good motivator for action? What else might be motivating Bilbo's thinking?

Weariness with stupidity and greed is a good motivator for action. I really think Bilbo had Thorin's best interest at heart -- after all, he was willing to give up his fourteenth share, so Thorin would lose nothing.

5. What makes Roäc qualified to give Thorin such advice?

He can fly away when Thorin gets angry. Anyone can see the problem, but Bilbo and the dwarves (or at least the younger dwarves who grumbled earlier) are intimidated by Thorin.

6. Is Roäc’s last line a prophecy or a foreshadowing?

Hard to say. There's no mention of goblins.

7. Whose reasoning do you prefer – Roäc's or Thorin's? Do they both make good arguments, or does one of them make more sense to you?

I prefer Roäc's. Thorin's stubbornness makes no sense to me.



sador
Half-elven

Jul 8 2009, 11:58am

Post #5 of 33 (733 views)
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A few answers [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Why does Tolkien use such formal language here?
You meant Tolkien, didn't you? It appears most posters thought you meant Thorin.
Anyway, answering your question - this chapter is the climax of a drama for grown-ups.

2. Is Thorin a dwarvish version of Feanor?

In a way; although he didn't make the Arkenstone - but neither did he deny the Valar its light, so he is less of a sinner.

3. What kind of “beginnings” is Bilbo considering at this point?
Of his plan.

4. Is "weariness" a good motivator for action?

One of the best.

What else might be motivating Bilbo's thinking?
Wanting to get home; fear of actual battle; guilt.
And at the end of the last chapter, Bilbo himself mentioned two other ones: the smell, and the monotony of the food.

5. What makes Roäc qualified to give Thorin such advice?
Nothing, really; but once you bring news, you feel entitled to offer an opinion as well. And he serves Thorin well enough to know he wouldn't be just sent away.

Well, maybe his age.

6. Is Roäc’s last line a prophecy or a foreshadowing?

Foreshadowing? Pretty soon, a far larger army will come to the Mountain, unmarked by the ravens until it is too late! (If not for the intricate situation of enemies around it.)

7. Whose reasoning do you prefer – Roäc's or Thorin's? Do they both make good arguments, or does one of them make more sense to you?
I'm not quite sure Roäc suggests anything. He only admonishes Thorin. Does he call for Thorin to give in to Bard's demands, or to open negotiations on his own initiative?
And wouldn't Dain have not tipped the scales Thorin's way, if the Elves and Men had not been forewarned? As far as I remember, the book doesn't mention any difference this would have made. But they might have changed their dispositions accordingly.

"Such a fool deserves to starve." - Bard.


Curious
Half-elven


Jul 8 2009, 1:10pm

Post #6 of 33 (726 views)
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And why is that? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Pretty soon, a far larger army will come to the Mountain, unmarked by the ravens until it is too late!


How could the ravens possibly miss the goblins and their cloud of bats? I can't find a good way to rationalize this, any more than I can find a good explanation for the disappearance of the thrush. The birds serve Tolkien's purpose, and then disappear without explanation.


weaver
Half-elven

Jul 8 2009, 4:52pm

Post #7 of 33 (735 views)
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copy and paste... [In reply to] Can't Post

To answer this question -- (how did you manage to get the 'a' in Roac's name btw?) -- like you, I'd like to know how to actually "double-dot" letters like that...me, I just copied it from N_50, a prior discussion leader for this chapter.

If someone knows the secret, I hope they'll tell us both!


Weaver





(This post was edited by weaver on Jul 8 2009, 4:52pm)


Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Jul 8 2009, 5:51pm

Post #8 of 33 (727 views)
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Check the responses [In reply to] Can't Post

in this subthread and you should find something that works for you. :)


weaver
Half-elven

Jul 8 2009, 6:03pm

Post #9 of 33 (716 views)
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ah, thanks... [In reply to] Can't Post

Glad to find you on call at the RR "help desk"! Smile

Maybe this should be linked to the TORn guidelines someplace? Helpful stuff!

Weaver





GaladrielTX
Tol Eressea


Jul 8 2009, 6:10pm

Post #10 of 33 (718 views)
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Easy! The magic of control and control-shift: [In reply to] Can't Post

If you’re typing your post in Word, before typing the letter “a”, just hold down the control and shift keys and press the colon/semicolon key. Let go, and then type the letter “a”. You’ve now got a little colon over your “a”, sideways. (If I'm typing directly into TORN's "Post" window I do have to open up a window for Word to do this.)

Similarly, you can use control-shift to make a tilde (~) by holding control-shift down and pressing the tilde key. Then you let go of everything and type the letter you want the tilde to be on top of.

If you don’t hold down the shift key but just hold down control and type the apostrophe, then let go and type your letter, you can get an accent mark over a letter (“accent acute”, like á). Similarly, for an “accent grave” (backwards accent), you hold down the control key while pressing the same key as the tilde and then let go and type your letter so you get “à”.

Basically, holding down the control key while pressing another key gives you what’s on that key. Then you type the letter you want it “on”. If you hold down control-shift while pressing a key, it gives you the upper case of what’s on that key. Then you type the letter you want it “on”.

Hope this helps!

~~~~~~~~

The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.



Beren IV
Gondor


Jul 8 2009, 7:04pm

Post #11 of 33 (712 views)
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Ravens know what they're doing [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Why does Tolkien use such formal language here?

It's a royal proclamation.


2. Is Thorin a dwarvish version of Feanor?

No. Fëanor's vice is pride, and while Thorin certainly has that, Thorin is far more obviously having problems with avarice here. Thorin did not make the Arkenstone - but Fëanor certainly did make the Silmarils (albeit with help - help that he forgets about entirely!).


5. What makes Roäc qualified to give Thorin such advice?

Ravens are wild animals who survive by their wits in the wilderness - literally, as ravens are neither feirce predators nor herbivores who feed on abundant food. They are opportunitsts, having to think about where they will eat and where they will not. Every day in the life of a raven is an adventure. I think Roäc is well-qualified to give Thorin words of wisdom and warning.

6. Is Roäc’s last line a prophecy or a foreshadowing?

Perhaps foreshadowing, although in reality Thorin does not die because of the treasure or his lust for it. His death is nobler than that.


7. Whose reasoning do you prefer – Roäc's or Thorin's? Do they both make good arguments, or does one of them make more sense to you?

Röac's, because when Dain's troops arive, there will be a battle, and even should Dain win, then as Röac says, Thorin will still starve, unless he plans on raiding the women and children of the Lakemen or robbing the Elves for food.


The paleobotanist is back!


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 9 2009, 1:23am

Post #12 of 33 (755 views)
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If you're using a Mac [In reply to] Can't Post

you can get some basic symbols by holding down the Option key while pressing another key, then releasing those keys and pressing the vowel to be used.

Option - e + e = é
Option - e + shift - e = É
Option - u + e = ë
Option - u + a = ä
Option - i + o = ô
Option - n + n = ñ

etc.

Holding down the Option key with these letters produces:

Option - q = œ
Option - shift - q = Œ
Option - a = å
Option - shift - a = Å
Option - ' = æ
Option - shift - ' = Æ

Unfortunately, I've yet to figure out how to make a thorn using a Mac keyboard!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915



Curious
Half-elven


Jul 9 2009, 5:39am

Post #13 of 33 (697 views)
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I know this is a crow, not a raven, but it's a good example [In reply to] Can't Post

 of bird wits.


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jul 9 2009, 9:00am

Post #14 of 33 (724 views)
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Changing the register [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Why does Tolkien use such formal language here?

He's moving the register of the language into the mythical mode as the story changes (has already changed) from fairytale to myth. Bilbo still uses the same simple, modern idiom he always did (and the narrator uses it when he's describing Bilbo's thoughts and actions). But Thorin has become a figure of great mythic significance, especially as he relates to the Arkenstone, and the language matches it. Actually, there are a number of words that a child reader would have difficulty with in this chapter - I'm thinking of words like "unmarked" meaning "unnoticed" (from Roäc), or "comely" (from the Elvenking later). Tolkien is challenging his readers who are now too committed to the story, we must suppose, to be put off by a few new or difficult words! I think this was quite common in children's tales at the beginning of the 20th century, although by mid-century popular children's authors seem to have taken a more "child-centred", keep-it-friendly approach instead of the earlier, more challenging one.

2. Is Thorin a dwarvish version of Feanor?

The same human foibles keep cropping up in the legendarium. The sense of jealousy and entitlement regarding a precious object keeps raising its ugly head - until the Ring becomes the ultimate desirable object...

3. What kind of “beginnings” is Bilbo considering at this point?

Whatever they are, they must already involve the Arkenstone, because they are the reason he keeps quiet about it rather than handing it back to Thorin. I think he must already be thinking about using it as a bargaining chip, although exactly how to do that must take quite a bit of further thought...

4. Is "weariness" a good motivator for action? What else might be motivating Bilbo's thinking?

Weariness, meaning an oppressive sense that things will keep on being the same, deadly, miserable way they are now, seems like an excellent motivator. That's the kind of weariness that makes you want to do anything you can think of, just to break the monotony.

5. What makes Roäc qualified to give Thorin such advice?

He's old, and he's wise. And there's no-one else around at this moment in the story who can really make this point for the benefit of the readers. Plus there's presumably no-one better placed than a bird to know that you can't live in a desolate, hostile land where food cannot be had.

(By the way, does your copy of The Hobbit really have "I fear less there be battle"? Mine has the correct "I fear lest....")

6. Is Roäc’s last line a prophecy or a foreshadowing?

Yes, both of those. And a straightforward, realistic warning too.

7. Whose reasoning do you prefer – Roäc's or Thorin's? Do they both make good arguments, or does one of them make more sense to you?

Thorin makes sense here. And it's interesting that he's talking about "parley" himself now. He may well be right that the winter weather will soften up the Elves and Men more than it does the Dwarves. In fact, Roäc's warning is really about the perils of being completely stubborn and refusing to negotiate at all, after which Thorin seems to be saying he will negotiate when the time is right. So perhaps Thorin takes on board at least a part of what Roäc says.

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Jul 9 2009, 9:00am)


weaver
Half-elven

Jul 9 2009, 9:19am

Post #15 of 33 (704 views)
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busted! [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been pressed for time this week, so wI ent back to the 2004 discussion and cut and pasted my Hobbit excerpts from there...so it's Nernadels's (sp?) book that had that less/lest wording...

But, I just checked, and lo! I have a 1966 Hobbit, my lest is also less. Who knew?

If I wasn't raised so Catholic I would not feel compelled to confess all of this, of course...Smile...

Weaver





Twit
Lorien

Jul 9 2009, 9:37am

Post #16 of 33 (693 views)
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thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm replying to Eowyn of Penns Woods but am thanking every one who has replied. And at the risk of blowing my (rubbish) laptop up, am now trying everything out.


Curious
Half-elven


Jul 9 2009, 1:11pm

Post #17 of 33 (698 views)
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Good point about Thorin discussing a parley! [In reply to] Can't Post

Although I wonder what he would have proposed, if Bilbo had not interfered?


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jul 9 2009, 2:24pm

Post #18 of 33 (697 views)
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Confession is good for the soul... [In reply to] Can't Post

Or so they say... Sly


In Reply To
If I wasn't raised so Catholic I would not feel compelled to confess all of this, of course...Smile...



I don't blame you for copying and pasting - it's a great time-saver. I'm very happy with my new (and completely paid-for and legal!) electronic Hobbit, which I can search and copy quotes from very conveniently indeed. It's where I checked first about the 'lest', but it's also correct in my book copy, which I think is actually the same edition - at least, my electronic version uses the same cover image as my book, this one.


They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jul 9 2009, 6:47pm

Post #19 of 33 (692 views)
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Pontification. Fortification. I need a vacation... [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Why does Tolkien use such formal language here?

Thorin really is a windbag when it comes to claiming something. Whether it's his birthright, his treasure, his soapbox... he spews and blows the air with grandeur. *yawn* Put it in a memo.


3. What kind of “beginnings” is Bilbo considering at this point?

Bilbo is so done with all of this. But he still has his deferred responsibilitiy that Gandalf placed on him. He needs to see this Quest through, and it looks like until it's resolved and laid to rest, he's stuck. He really could have just up and left; but integrity isn't a half-way deal. You either have it and live by it, or you don't. Bilbo has it in spades. So his beginnings of a plan is to finally stop all of this nonsense... like he did every time the dwarves were being stinkers.



Quote
How shall you be fed without the friendship and goodwill of the lands about you?


This really is the bottom line, isn't it? What good does winning this battle do if you end up an island with no support from neighbours who can supply the things you can't grow in a cave?



sample

"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."

I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.



TORn's Observations Lists


squire
Half-elven


Jul 10 2009, 7:44pm

Post #20 of 33 (732 views)
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Thorin this is your brain talking - Thorin? Thorin? [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Why does Tolkien use such formal language here?
Thorin is swearing an oath. It doesn’t say so literally, but the formal language itself tells us this.


2. Is Thorin a dwarvish version of Feanor?
Well, certainly Tolkien is drawing on his Feanor story, unbeknownst to his readers. But even that story is a variation on innumerable tales of oaths over property stolen, etc.


More specifically, Feanor made the Silmarils – Thorin only inherited the Arkenstone. Thorin’s oath is more mundane for that reason alone.


3. What kind of “beginnings” is Bilbo considering at this point?
I guess Bilbo has figured out that he has the one lever that might move Thorin off the pinnacle of his pride. He may even have realized that he himself cannot trade the Arkenstone for a peaceful settlement, because the dwarves would just take the stone from him rather than trade for it. And so the stone has to get to Bard instead.



That’s just a beginning. The details – when, how, etc. – are still to be worked out at this point.



I can’t read about Bilbo using the Arkenstone as a pillow, or part of a pillow, without thinking of Gandalf using the palantir in the same way, and for much the same reason, in LotR Book III. Details like this, and the fact that Bilbo can carry the thing around in his pockets, make me wonder just how big the Arkenstone is.


4. Is "weariness" a good motivator for action?
Sure. It’s interesting that it’s the days that are weary, not the dwarves and hobbit. There’s a term for this kind of usage, but I don’t know it.


What else might be motivating Bilbo's thinking?
The dwarves have “some weeks” worth of food, tightly rationed. Perhaps Bilbo is motivated by the prospect of starving to death in the not so distant future? Or being killed in a dwarvish version of mutiny?


P.S. I am surprised on re-reading that the dwarves did not slaughter the ponies and preserve the meat. Such an omission reminds me of how the sentimental and foolish Captain Scott (English) refused to slaughter his ponies and so died in the frozen waste, while his competitor Amundsen (Norwegian) sensibly ate his sled-dogs as needed. (In LotR Gimli shows this kind of sense: " ‘Feet!’ said Gimli. ‘But we cannot eat them as well as walk on them.")



5. What makes Roäc qualified to give Thorin such advice?
6. Is Roäc’s last line a prophecy or a foreshadowing?
Like all talking ravens, Roäc gets on my nerves after a while. First they tell you useful information, then they try to do your thinking for you. It’s like they work for God or something.


7. Whose reasoning do you prefer – Roäc's or Thorin's? Do they both make good arguments, or does one of them make more sense to you?
Thorin is a fool at this point to imagine that winter will make the Men and Elves more likely to bargain. Their obvious strategy would be to step aside and let Dain’s army join Thorin in the mountain to help him starve faster, while they withdraw until spring to resume the question on the same terms. And even without Roäc’s help Thorin should be able to do the math on a battle between 500-odd dwarves and a substantially larger army mostly of Elven archers.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Jul 11 2009, 12:03am

Post #21 of 33 (680 views)
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Not Feanor [In reply to] Can't Post

Thorin seems more like one of the sons of Feanor than Feanor himself. He prizes the Arkenstone as an heirloom, not as a creation.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


sador
Half-elven

Jul 11 2009, 10:20pm

Post #22 of 33 (686 views)
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Dain's five hundred are just a vanguard [In reply to] Can't Post

Thorin has many relatives, and by spring several of the old gates would be open (as Tolkien tells us next chapter).
And would the Elvish army return? What for? While they're at it, their king agrees to stay along and help Bard; but next spring?
And isn't Bard's position a bit precarious? He left with an army of Lake-Men, who when they get back will need to work real hard (with no dwarvish help, such as Gloin mentions in 'Many Meetings') in building shelters for their families. Trade will take some time to flourish again, as well as agriculture; and I suspect the Men of a thriving town are less hardy in such circumstances tham wandering dwarves.
No, an army returning to Lake-town will be a disaffected army, who will have considered Bard to have failed miserably. Some will blame him for his pride and ineffectiveness, others for cowardice (for not storming the flimsy defenses and puny numbers). Most would be unwilling to return and lay siege to a better-fortified Mountain, manned by several thousand warlike dwarves.
And there is always that canny politician, the Master, who would just love to twist the knife in the militarist upstart's back - especially once the story gets around that Bard quickly agreed to waive the Lakemen's claim, while trying to embroil the people in unnecessary war for his own claims.

"Such a fool deserves to starve." - Bard.


squire
Half-elven


Jul 12 2009, 3:23am

Post #23 of 33 (678 views)
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OK, several thousand warlike but emaciated dwarf corpses. [In reply to] Can't Post

You're right about the political dangers of Bard abandoning the siege. But you assume too quickly that the dwarves have any options at all, except to starve.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


sador
Half-elven

Jul 12 2009, 7:02am

Post #24 of 33 (697 views)
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How different would that be from the usual case of Mountain-kingdoms? [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien never explains just how dwarves sustain themselves, if they have no-one to trade with. Balin's colony in Moria survived for five years - just how?
Or even the goblins of the Misty Mountains - did they all survive merely on raiding the houses of the woodmen, and eating occaional travellers?

I don't think Thorin and co. would be worse than any of these, and I even think one could easily think of answers:
Dain's followers brought plenty of provisions, and they were in a hurry. Would other dwarves coming not bring more, including grain? As was discussed before, the Mountain might actually be fertile - and while it's true that the dwarves of Thror's time didn't bother to grow food they couold buy, that doesn't mean they couldn't.
In fact, the story of Mim implies that dwarves were actually pretty good in finding means of sustenance in the Wild.
In previous drafts (which dernwyn quoted before), the ravens were also used to bring the dwarves food.

And that to say nothing of the Master, who once he managed to shift the blame to Bard and gets rid of him, would surely be amenable to some profitable trade.

"Such a fool deserves to starve." - Bard.


squire
Half-elven


Jul 12 2009, 3:11pm

Post #25 of 33 (679 views)
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You say potato, I say 'They have no name, save in the Dwarf-tongue, which we do not teach’. [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think the concept of the mysterious and nutritious root vegetable that the dwarf Mim reveals to Turin was invented until after the writing of The Lord of the Rings, when he attacked the Turin story with a vengeance. All the earlier dwarf populations of the Silmarillion cycle, and in The Hobbit and LotR, are said to depend on trade with nearby human farmers and herdsmen, or even with the hobbits. The orcs seem to put their large slave populations to many uses - perhaps farming or husbandry in hidden mountain valleys is one? Clearly Tolkien too was baffled by the survival of all the numerous subterranean anti-agricultural populations that he postulated at the drop of a hat in his stories.

Not that the Elves are much better:
As with most mythical creatures who live in enchanted forests with no visible means of support, the elves ate rather frugally, and Frito was a little disappointed to find heaped on his plate a small mound of ground nuts, bark, and dirt.




squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary

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