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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 25 2009, 6:32pm
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Fire and Water: More Questions.
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Bard is known as someone who forebodes gloomy things like floods and poisoned fish. Floods I can see, but poisoned fish? How and why would Bard forebode poisoned fish? Or is this just a slander against Bard? What other gloomy things might he forebode? Does this remind anyone of Wormtongue's complaints about Gandalf? Is there a reason Bard might be so gloomy even before the arrival of the dwarves? Note that Bard is anything but gloomy once the fighting starts. Does this remind anyone of Bilbo, who was gloomy in Lake-town, but perked up when the dwarves reached the Lonely Mountain? Is Tolkien trying to make a point?
Why didn't Bard know he could understand thrushes?
The thrush told Bard "of tidings up in the Mountain and of all that it had heard." What did it say? How long did it take? Keep in mind that the dragon was about to make another attack. Then Bard gave a little speech or prayer before firing. Why? Did the speech help? Did Someone hear him? Did the black arrow hear him?
Smaug's belly is encrusted with gems. He wasn't born that way, was he? Did it come from lying on the gems for a hundred years? If not, how else? Was he able to see his own belly, or feel for bare spots?
Why did the Master let Bard take charge?
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 25 2009, 8:52pm
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I think that Smaug acquired his jeweled waistcoat because he's slimy, and sleeps on a heap of treasure, and treasure sticks to the slime.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jun 25 2009, 9:18pm
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Hope I'm not flogging a dead fish...
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Bard is known as someone who forebodes gloomy things like floods and poisoned fish. Floods I can see, but poisoned fish? How and why would Bard forebode poisoned fish? ... but I can't help thinking that poisoned fish sound like something that might be caused by volcanic activity upstream....
Or is this just a slander against Bard? What other gloomy things might he forebode? Does this remind anyone of Wormtongue's complaints about Gandalf? Is there a reason Bard might be so gloomy even before the arrival of the dwarves?
Maybe it's not really that he's so gloomy, but that everyone else is too focused on short-term gain and unwilling to listen to warnings that things might go wrong - kind of like the way no-one wanted to hear that house prices might go down, back before the credit crunch hit.
I wonder if it's also meant to suggest that, like Strider, he's living a difficult and unrewarding life trying to keep his people safe without being in a position to lead them.
Note that Bard is anything but gloomy once the fighting starts. Does this remind anyone of Bilbo, who was gloomy in Lake-town, but perked up when the dwarves reached the Lonely Mountain? Is Tolkien trying to make a point?
While you're anticipating something difficult and dangerous, it's only natural to feel gloomy. Once there's something you can actually do, the weight lifts.
Why didn't Bard know he could understand thrushes?
I suppose he's never been spoken to by one before! He's lived as an ordinary townsman, but now his moment of destiny has arrived. The thrush knows, even if Bard doesn't.
The thrush told Bard "of tidings up in the Mountain and of all that it had heard." What did it say? How long did it take? Keep in mind that the dragon was about to make another attack.
It's hard to know how quickly a thrush can tell a tale. Since the thrush-speech is magic to start with, it doesn't seem worth trying to time it. Magic and objective measurements don't mix.
Then Bard gave a little speech or prayer before firing. Why? Did the speech help? Did Someone hear him? Did the black arrow hear him?
At the very least, it would have helped Bard - that's how you "psych yourself up" when you have to make a supreme effort. Bard would have imagined that the arrow could hear him, and perhaps that some unseen power was helping him too. We aren't told whether either of these things was actually true, though.
Smaug's belly is encrusted with gems. He wasn't born that way, was he? Did it come from lying on the gems for a hundred years? If not, how else? Was he able to see his own belly, or feel for bare spots?
I've always assumed it was from lying on the gems. I imagine he could see most of his belly, but he must have had a blind spot or two - and one fatal one.
Why did the Master let Bard take charge?
Because (as Darkstone might say) the Master is a wienie.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Jun 26 2009, 2:29am
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I know it's not the style 'round here, but as often the case, one can usually find the answer to almost every question right in the text without the need of guessing:
From 'Inside Information', when Bilbo first sees Smaug:
'Smaug lay, with wings folded like an immeasurable bat, turned partly on one side, so that the hobbit could see his underparts and his long pale belly crusted with gems and fragments of gold from his long lying on his costly bed.'
Sorry to be such a killjoy.
Reading this quote, however, makes me wonder how Bilbo could tell that Smaug's gem covered belly was 'pale'.....
This quote, is, of course, before Bilbo sees the bare patch (that's on the second visit),
So, how can you tell a gem covered belly is 'pale'?
Is this just Tolkien being descriptive for us & not literal of what Bilbo sees or are there smaller uncovered bare areas beside the 'bare patch' that Bard hits?
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Disa
Lindon
Jun 26 2009, 4:25am
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I think that Bilbo could see the color of Smaug's underside because his whole belly wasn't covered completely, thus showing his scales. I also think imho that he wasn't slimy, it's just that the gems and things stuck in between his scales and were lodged there by sleeping on them a long time. Which begs another question - how does a dragon sleep? Does he toss and turn, thus grinding the gems and coins into the crevices between the scales, or does the weight of him simply push his jewelry deep in there? I have to assume that since a dragon knows his belly is more vunerable, that he does sleep on his belly. But what if he sort-of wallows himslef into a comfortable nook in the gold pile, like he was 'nesting', thus creating a sort-of hollowed out spot that his body perfectly fits into? Although when Bilbo creeps into Smaug's sleeping chamber, Smaug isn't mentioned as moving about, but it still could happen.
Something else I'm wondering, is that while he's flying, do the gems reflect light into attacker's eyes, like a beautiful defence mechanisim?
Tolkien got skills.
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Jun 26 2009, 4:54am
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The issue of slime....
Again, let's go to......
The books.....
The Children of Hurin.....
'The Death of Glaurung':
'And even as he (Turin) steadied himself in a fork of it's boughs, the midmost parts of the Dragon came above him, and swayed down with their weight almost upon his head, ere Glaurung could heave them up. Pale and wrinkled was his underside, and all dank with grey slime, to which clung all matter of dropping filth, and it stank of death..'
Sounds to me like a dragon's belly is slimey, but the 'filth' just kinda stuck to the belly.
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Disa
Lindon
Jun 26 2009, 6:17am
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Glaurung's belly, as I read it, was wrinkled and slimy, and when he was pierced with the sword, there was no mention of the wound being in a chink in scales. That in turn leads me to believe that he had no scales on his underside, but a protective coating of slime, which would lead to wrinkles. So I rather think that Smaug's underside is different, being armored above and below, which is something that he was rather proud of. Glaurung was a gold dragon, and so may differ in his appearance from a red dragon, even though Smaug was a decendant of his. So I wonder (because I only know of a few reptiles and all have scales) if a reptile secretes a slimy film for a protection, that means his skin is only thick and not scaled, and why a scaled dragon would need a further protection of slime?
Dwarrows forever!
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sador
Gondolin
Jun 26 2009, 7:22am
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Bard is known as someone who forebodes gloomy things like floods and poisoned fish. Floods I can see, but poisoned fish? How and why would Bard forebode poisoned fish?
I get the feeling it is a sort of saying among the river-men, about a series of calamities: "anything from floods to poisoned fish".
Another case of folk-wisdom, of which we have quite a lot in The Hobbit.
Or is this just a slander against Bard?
If I am right in my guess, it's more of a tease.
Does this remind anyone of Wormtongue's complaints about Gandalf?
Maybe. I've never thought of this before.
Is there a reason Bard might be so gloomy even before the arrival of the dwarves?
As I said in my answers to your previous thread, he is stuck in the wrong stoiry.
Does this remind anyone of Bilbo, who was gloomy in Lake-town, but perked up when the dwarves reached the Lonely Mountain?
Not quite. Both have a job to do, but Bard is full of adernaline, striving to fend off imminent disaster; Bilbo is more like solving a riddle.
Why didn't Bard know he could understand thrushes?
Ask a better question: why didn't anyone else understand thrushes? Aren't there any other survivors from Dale? Lake-town was a natural place for refugees tp fly to.
The thrush told Bard "of tidings up in the Mountain and of all that it had heard." What did it say? How long did it take? Keep in mind that the dragon was about to make another attack.
Quoting from next chapter:
He did not, of course, expect that anyone would remember that it was he who discovered all by himself the dragon's weak spot; and that was just as well, for no one ever did. Do you think the thrush told Bard that detail? If not, was it for the sake of brevity, or because he resented Bilbo's throwing stones at him?
And why did Bard say he did not hope to see Thorin alive?
Then Bard gave a little speech or prayer before firing. Why? Did the speech help?
It did, at least psychlogically.
Did Someone hear him?
Of course Someone did! He always does!
But there is no indication in the text that Bard meant this as a prayer.
Did the black arrow hear him?
Gurthang heard Thorin, and even had a consciense.
Smaug's belly is encrusted with gems. He wasn't born that way, was he?
I don't suppose so.
Did it come from lying on the gems for a hundred years?
That's possible.
If not, how else?
He might have left a few dwarves alive for the purpose.
Was he able to see his own belly,
If Bilbo couldn't find a looking-glass, I guess there was none to be found.
or feel for bare spots?
He probably could do that. Those mighty wings are useful.
How else would he scratch?
"We always elected master from among the old and wise, and have not endured the rule of mere fighting men." - the Master of Lake-town.
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Jun 26 2009, 7:26am
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We enter the realm of total speculation...... 
Disa, I think you bring up a great point about Smaug being red versus Glaurung being Gold, but is not Smaug once referred to as 'Smaug the Golden' & also called 'a red-gold dragon' to be completely technical?
I think that there is really no more difference there than between two horses that are black and brown.
It is simply a pigmentation thing & not a sub-species thing I'm guessing.
A greater difference might be Smaug being a 'fire-drake' (as I prefer to call a wingless dragon) & Smaug being a winged dragon. However, that may not make any difference either because when Smaug refers to himself as being "armoured below", he is not referring to his belly, but to the jewels covering his belly.
And here is the clincher:
Let's go back to the Glaurung passage:
'Pale and wrinkled was their underside, and all dank with grey slime, to which clung all manner of dropping filth.'
'To which clung'.......
Is it possible that the slime is sticky & helps hold things to a dragon's belly?
Wouldn't that adequately explain Smaug's long lying on the hoarde causing it to stick & not ever come off when added to the immense pressure the huge beast would put upon the jewels as his underbelly pressed down on the bed of gold & jewels?
That sure does make a much more plausable explation than only laying there & grinding them into his belly all alone.
See, the answer IS always there in the texts! 
I think.
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Disa
Lindon
Jun 26 2009, 8:03am
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Okay! Yep Smaug was ed-golden. Glaurung was only golden.
Since you're quoting from a book about Glaurung, I'll quote from "The Hobbit" about Smaug.
"I have always understood," said Bilbo in a frightened squeak, "that dragons were softer underneath, especially in the region of the-er-chest; but doubtless one so fortified has thought of that."
The dragon stopped short in his boasting. "Your information is antiquated," he snapped. "I am armoured above and below with iron scales and hard gems. No Blade can pierce me."
So maybe he means he's armored above with iron scales, and below with hard gems. Or armored on both sides with both. Bilbo does mention only about his waistcoat of gems, and not anything about scales. I think the one thing that made me think he had scales below also, was when Bilbo first sees him, he notes that he is laying partly on his side and can see that "his long pale belly crusted with gems and fragments of gold from his long lying on his costly bed." It makes no mention of Smaug being slimy as the reason for his 'jeweled waistcoat'.
I was just saying that since Smaug had scales underneath, and jewels stuck in the cracks. And I thought that since Smaug had scales, that he'd not need slime as well. But that would really make a dragon fierce if he was slimy and it was just filthy and mucky everywhere. Tolkien never mentioned Smaug being slimy though, but you know, I have no idea why I don't want to let go of the idea that smaug is not slimy.
Dwarrows forever!
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Jun 26 2009, 3:05pm
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Thought - merely speculation from reading the books might I add - that Smaug's passage there meant that the dragon's hide is 'like' iron scales and not literally iron put on his body......
Again, I have no clue if Smaug's stomach was slimey as Glaurung's was, but it certainly seems to me that one dragon would be as slimey as the next one. And in Glaurung's case, it may appear the slime caused things to stick to it's stomach.
Smaug used that stickiness to his advantage to acquire a wastecoat of gems to use as armour in case of attack I believe.
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(This post was edited by Tolkien Forever on Jun 26 2009, 3:07pm)
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 26 2009, 4:31pm
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Transparent gemstones look different on a pale surface from what they would look like on a dark surface. Also, if Smaug really does glow, then his belly would be pale and effulging light through the gemstones.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 26 2009, 4:39pm
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I think "antiquated" is a key word, here. Smaug is proud, I think, of innovating beyond his predecessors, in actually using the sliminess of his belly to some purpose. I think that he has deliberately stuck jewels to his belly. However, without a dragon-sized mirror, he missed a spot in a hard-to-reach hollow.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 26 2009, 4:50pm
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I agree that Smaug seems to say that Bilbo's information would have been correct if not for the gems Smaug fastened to his belly.
Also note this line from "Fire and Water": "Then down he swooped straight through the arrow-storm, reckless in his rage, taking no heed to turn his scaly sides toward his foes..." That implies that he had a non-scaly belly, almost but not quite completely covered, as previously noted, by gems.
(This post was edited by Curious on Jun 26 2009, 4:51pm)
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Jun 26 2009, 5:09pm
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Of course that is a great point about the lack of scales on Smaug's underside, Curious.
And Dreamdeer, I would guess a large amount of the gems are not only transparent, but clear diasmonds since the heart of the mountain was the Arkenstone, a huge diamond. To get to the heart, I'm sure many other smaller dismonds were found.
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SirDennisC
Gondolin
Jun 29 2009, 12:09am
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Tolkien develops a device (and looks towards LOTR?)
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Thank you for stepping into the breech Curious and Dreamdear...
I had planned to draw attention to how the chapter fits into the overall narrative style Tolkien was developing just then. Fire and Water is situated as a device Tolkien used more extensively in LOTR, especially ROTK.
Rather than resort to parallel editing inside of one chapter, that is, bouncing between locations where events (or plot threads) are unfolding simultaneously --as popularized in movies by the time of the Hobbit's writing -- in Fire and Water, Tolkien chose to take the story back in time slightly to "catch the reader up" as it were. We see this device fully developed in ROTK leading up to the Battle of Pelennor Fields.
Also, there is a great deal to be said about the comparison between the Master of Laketown and Denethor, Steward of Gondor. On their respective stages of battle, the comparison becomes acute. Logically (and one can be certain the movies will do this as well) the comparison of Bard to Aragorn follows.
Sorry to come in a week late with this. The discussions that were had look fantastic and I look forward to reading them.
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Jun 29 2009, 12:10am)
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 29 2009, 6:19am
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This is the first (and only?) chapter
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where it has been necessary to leave Bilbo's point of view and tell us what has been happening elsewhere. I agree that this becomes much more common in LotR -- indeed, all of Books 3 and 5 could be considered diversions from the main storyline involving Frodo and Sam. And within Book 3 Tolkien follows two separate storylines, while within Book 5 he follows three separate storylines. As you note, rather than telling the separate stories chronologically, Tolkien prefers to repeatedly jump backwards in time to catch up with each of the stories. Sometimes we just hear the story in retrospect as the characters catch each other up (as with the Ents' assault on Isengard or Aragorn's trip from the Paths of the Dead to the rescue of Minas Tirith), but other times the narrator takes the reader back in time.
This technique sets up some dramatic situations. In The Hobbit, Bilbo and the dwarves wonder what has happened to Smaug. In LotR, this technique sets up the dramatic rescue of Helm's Deep, and the twofold rescue of Minas Tirith by Theoden and Aragorn. It also leaves everyone who knows about Frodo's mission wondering about his fate, until the dramatic eucatastrophe when the Ring is unmade. By leaving the reader ignorant of important contemporaneous events, we share the perspective of the protagonists who are also ignorant of those events.
Tolkien's technique also makes his story more of an ensemble piece, as we follow first one set of characters and then another. The Hobbit has, I think, just started to turn into an ensemble piece in the last couple of chapters, with the focus on Thorin and Bard and the Master and the Elvenking, and soon on Bilbo and Gandalf, and eventually on the rescue by the Eagles and Beorn. Bilbo plays a role, but arguably not even a starring role, in the last few chapters of the book. LotR is an ensemble piece throughout, but increasingly so as the story progresses.
As for the Master and Denethor or Bard and Aragorn, there are both similarities and contrasts. For me, the contrasts between the Master and Denethor outnumber the similarities. Bard seems like a prototype for Aragorn, but Aragorn is in all ways bigger and better and more important than Bard. As I have noted elsewhere, in some ways I think Aragorn is more like Beorn, a semi-human magical Hero on a mythic scale, rather than a human Warrior like Bard.
I'm sorry you were unable to take part last week. But of course it is never too late to contribute to past discussions!
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sador
Gondolin
Jun 29 2009, 7:23am
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There is another short sequence
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At the end of 'Flies and Spiders', describing Thorin and the Elvenking (which if we follow Darkstone's suggestion, might be a nice way to start film 2).
Also, I doubt Bilbo actually overheard the Elvenking's confidence about the magic of his doors, or for the matter has been present when Balin and the dwarves were interrogated! But the passage about Thorin is the only other case which clearly leaves Bilbo.
"We may not understand him, but that old bird understands us, I am sure." - Balin.
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Twit
Menegroth
Jun 29 2009, 9:55am
Post #19 of 35
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Bard is known as someone who forebodes gloomy things like floods and poisoned fish. Floods I can see, but poisoned fish? How and why would Bard forebode poisoned fish?
I suspect that the town eats a lot of fish, poisoned fish would be A Very Bad Thing. I think it isn't from recent experience that a saying like this has arisen, it could be a throw-back memeory from when Smaug first arived.
Or is this just a slander against Bard? What other gloomy things might he forebode?
I think Bard is known for being pessimistic, he is a refugee and so might see signs when others don't.
Is there a reason Bard might be so gloomy even before the arrival of the dwarves?
Perhaps he had a feeling in his water that something was going to happen. Maybe he thinks the Elves aren't worth what they charge.
Note that Bard is anything but gloomy once the fighting starts. Does this remind anyone of Bilbo, who was gloomy in Lake-town, but perked up when the dwarves reached the Lonely Mountain? Is Tolkien trying to make a point?
Are they bored? Fed up of forever waiting for something to happen? Just wanting to get going, even if it could mean death?
(it reminds me of the bit where Gandalf and Pippin are talking at Gondor in the film, looking out towards Mordor)
Why didn't Bard know he could understand thrushes?
Perhaps living in a lake they don't get many thrushes, and certainly not ones who can talk to men.
What did it say?
Aim for the black spot on his belly.
Keep in mind that the dragon was about to make another attack. Then Bard gave a little speech or prayer before firing. Why? Did the speech help?
To steady himself, and as a prayer that he succeeds in bringing down Smaug.
Did Someone hear him? Did the black arrow hear him?
Some-one as in Some-one or some-one? Yes maybe Some-one heard.
I mentioned the arrow night have been made with revenge for Smaug in it, maybe Bard's words awoke that.
Although I'm more of the an arrow is an arrow is an arrow opinion today. (Who knows what I'll think tomorrow)
Smaug's belly is encrusted with gems. He wasn't born that way, was he? Did it come from lying on the gems for a hundred years? If not, how else? Was he able to see his own belly, or feel for bare spots?
No he wasn't born that way, they got there from Smaug lying on them. I can't help wondering if the bare patch used to be home to the Arkenstone...
Why did the Master let Bard take charge?
Because he isn't a fighter. (To put it kindly for family viewing you understand)
coughbiggirlsblousecough
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 29 2009, 1:52pm
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Yes, and that might be the start of Thorin's story!
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It is Thorin's refusal to tell the Elvenking his purpose that sets up his imprisonment, escape, and later confrontation. That would be a great start to the second movie, which is more of an ensemble piece, with strong roles for Thorin, the Elvenking, Smaug, the thrush, Bard, the Master, Gandalf, and Beorn, as well as Bilbo.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jun 29 2009, 3:37pm
Post #21 of 35
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I can't help wondering if the bare patch used to be home to the Arkenstone...
I'd been wondering how likely it might have been that the Arkenstone had been stuck to Smaug's belly (that would have been a real disappointment for Thorin!), and thinking that perhaps it was a bit too big to stay stuck. But that's a very interesting idea, that maybe the jewel had been stuck there, but being a little large (and also rather magical) it fell out at the worst possible time....
That would certainly fit quite well into the general scheme of things in Middle-earth.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Twit
Menegroth
Jun 29 2009, 4:33pm
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when you start really thinking about it it could be really meaningful, the heart of the dragon betrayed by the heart of the mountain (although I may be wrong in my thinking there) and then handed to the person who sent an arrow into the heart of the dragon. (again just getting carried away, but it's fun).
I've also been thinking that maybe the film should end when Bilbo sneaks in after the Elves and captured Dwarves. (banging doors seem a good place to stop for a bit)
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GaladrielTX
Dor-Lomin
Jun 29 2009, 11:47pm
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~~~~~~~~
The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Jun 30 2009, 12:33am
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And it makes so much sense: why would Smaug have that "hole" in the first place? And right there? Considering the Arkenstone's placement on the mound - would Smaug have wanted the gem close to his own heart?
And we can go further: is the Arkenstone somehow "awake", that is, does it have Ring-like abilities, specifically: to leave its current owner when the moment arises for the chance to return to its "original" owner?
I'm lovin' this, Twit! 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Gem answers maybe
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