|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
sador
Half-elven
Jun 21 2009, 8:35pm
Post #1 of 19
(641 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The Hobbit, chapter 13, summary - who is Not At Home?
|
Can't Post
|
|
So!
This week is over, and with it another discussuion of ‘Not at Home’ in the Reading Room. I had great fun – I hope you’ve all enjoyed it half as much as I did!
This was the second time this chapter was discussed in the RR; in October 2004, this chapter was led by Arquen (here) – and skimming through it, I was surprised by the differences of tone! Recalling my exchange with Curious about whether I give the dwarves too much credit, or he gives them too little – I must say that his approach seems to be the majority opinion back then.
I tried to read this chapter twice – through the eyes of the dwarves, and through the eyes of Bilbo. I know most readers automatically identify with the hobbit, but I always felt the dwarves are actually very interesting characters, and far from mere figures bereft of any identity. I do not know whether Tolkien picked up their names in random when he needed a mouthpiece; and I’m sure the coming movies will need to give them an inner life.
What do you feel about this?
So we actually started with the dwarves, and it seems that at first, not many shared my sympathy with Thorin. In 2004 no such seperation was made, so the discussion of Bilbo’s sudden lightening of heart was side by side with Thorin’s gloom. I must point out Penthe’s suggestion that Thorin cares for open spaces more than the average dwarf; she also thought that was why he escaped the dragon – which should be juxtaposed against Curious’ picture of a family picnic, to account for all of Thror’s family surviving the attack on Erebor (not necessarily; we know nothing of Thror and Thrain’s wives, and they might have perished back then).
The central discussion of the first thread was a tangential one – about Tolkien’s characterising of dwarves as a group. Curious felt strongly against it (possibly because of his seeing the different dwarves as easily interchangeable), and this lead to another of our discussions of genetics and culture; an interesting twist occured when FarFromHome introdiced the melting-pot concept, which led to a fascinating exchange of views about American society, with squire defending the ideal of creating a new, unified culture, rather than an heterogenous quilt – in short, he prefered the American stew to the Canadian salad (to be more exact, he argued that Canada is just as much a stew as the USA).
But the most interesting comment was by Galadriel TX, who claimed:
Aside from taking the Arkenstone, Bilbo doesn’t do much of importance to the plot in this chapter. The focus is on Thorin because his upcoming decisions are most important to the story.
No less! I think most would prefer Darkstone’s formulation:
Bilbo’s duty as a burglar is finished. It’s now about the struggle between Thorin’s materialism and Bilbo’s newfound spiritual values.
But I still have a bone or two to pick with these “spiritual values”.
In threads no. 2 and 3 we returned to Bilbo, and it seems that nobody but Dreamdeer really liked my trying to make something out of Bungo’s parables, and to see some merit in the stolid, stereotypical father of our hero.
Most people agreed with my observation that here, when Thorin despairs, Bilbo really takes charge if the Quest (he did before, in Mirkwood, but that was in Thorin’s absence); but I’m not sure many felt the irony I did, that immediately upon assuming the mantle of leadership, Bilbo twice falls and makes a worse racket than the dwarves ever made (FarFromHome pointed out that we first met Thorin after a bad fall – is this a rite of initiation?). The suggestion that Bilbo went into a fit of hysteria when his torch went out did not meet wide approval – Twit did say he was having a tantrum, but the way she saw the dwarves was still worse; and the question whether it justified Gloin’s harsh judgement of him in the first chapter, was utterly rejected. That was the general tone back in 2004 as well, with Arquen leading by saying the dwarves deserved to be smacked; at the time only Atlas argued against her, and said Thorin was actually acting quite right.
This week, Galadriel TX seems to share Atlas’ view, while FarFromHome seems confident:
At this point, Thorin comes across as a hopeless, hollow leader - protecting his own position with fatuous pronouncements. The other dwarves may not see through him, but it's pretty clear that the reader is expected to.
Sorry, professor! This reader failed to see through Thorin, and still does.
FarFromHome also mentioned that Bilbo was acting here impulsively, and considered it a new thing; Curious took issue with her – and off we went into another long discussion about heredity.
Another point which should be mentioned was Bilbo’s sudden feeling of lightening. Dreamdeer’s idea that Bilbo had in a strange, clairvoyant way, sensed that Smaug was dead was completely new to me, and it seems many liked it a lot. In fact, in 2004 this was probably the majority opinion. Back then, drogo_drogo considered it an “epiphany”, probably sent by higher powers (I would have expected him to mention Gandalf’s identity as Olorin, but he didn’t), and gillygully merely saw it as an effect of having made up his mind (which should compare to Aragorn at the end of ‘The Passing of Boromir’, and to Frodo at the end of ‘The Black Gate is Closed’) – but Arquen even mentioned it in her summary, claiming the two events actually coincided!
Actually, this reflects on the question I asked in a later thread – how long they were cowering in the tunnel, and how long were they walking around the palace; dernwyn and Curious tended to think the first took most of the time, which would refute Arquen’s claim – and judging from Thror’s Map, it seems that going down the tunnel through the Mountain should not be longer than the five-hours’ march from the Gate to Ravenhill (but Thror’s Map is clearly schematic, and there is no need to suppose any part of it was drawn to scale).
Discussion 4 and 5 were devoted to the Arkenstone, of which we’ve had a few interesting images (to which we must add the picture gramma posted last week). A very interesting thing occured in 2004, when drogo_drogo (!) didn’t realise what was the light Bilbo saw, and thought it might have been the glint of the treasure!
Arquen suggested perhaps it could have been a spiritual light – which is interesting, cosidering that this week it reminded Twit of Galadriel’s light. She also wondered whether Bilbo saw it because of the ring (an idea I was hoping someone will raise here, but nobody did) – only to be rebuffed by Atlas, Curious and Daughter of Nienna, who pointed out that in The Hobbit the ring is not yet The One Ring.
I thought it was very important to consider the actual meaning of the Arkenstone, and whether it was more than just the most percious object of the hoard. Darkstone and Galadriel TX saw in it a spiritual value beyond its market price, and Dreamdeer went as far as considering it a religious object for the dwarves – something which I tend to agree with, even taking to account dernwyn’s rejection of the connection to the Priestly Garments.
Perhaps because we took the meaning of the Arkenstone into account, nobody here actually justified Bilbo’s taking the Arkenstone (well, Compa Mighty made a half-hearted try). That was a striking difference from the massive thread in 2004 (which had no less the 113 responses!).
Entwife Wandlimb thought Bilbo knew it was wrong to take it, like the palantir (she also mentioned that after Sting and the ring, this was the third powerful object taken by Bilbo – a point which grammaboodawg raised this week). Kimi also thought it was the bad habit of burgling, but Bilbo will redeem himself in renouncing his share in the treasure. An interesting take was that of Olorin of the West, who suggested the idea to chose this stone came to Bilbo through the influence of Smaug (although he considered the spiritual impact, not Galadriel TX’s simple idea of the Arkenstone as the only way to receive a fourteenth share of the hoard and take it back to the Shire).
However, quite a few people thought Bilbo was justified in taking and keeping the Arkenstone: Nerdanel_50 thought it was for leverage against Thorin, apparantly not believing he would honour his part in the agreement; Drogo_drogo thought it was a way of getting back at Thorin, but thought of it as a parallel to Morgoth stealing the Silmaril (the possible parallel with the Silmarils was discussed in some length, by Curious and Beren IV among others). Curious thought Bilbo was acting within his rights, as he is allowed to chose his part! And Takeo went further, and thought the only wrong thing about his picking Thrain’s stone was that it conflicted with Thorin avarice; while NZ Strider claimed that Thorin’s words about allowing Bilbo pick his own share overrode the original contract (would he defend this claim in court? I still stand by my argument that this gem could never be considered as cash, and that no delivery was done yet).
Pukel-man argued Bilbo had no right to unilaterally pick his share, and that he knew it was wrong, but that in the end he had to learn moral ambiguity (?!?!); Arquen pointed out he was drawn to it, and made no rational decision (this was also the position Merryk took, and he concluded it was an act of Providence – however, as we pointed out this week, ). This led to two fascinating discussions – one between Curious and squire had a about whether villians could repent in Tolkien’s world, and another in which Daughter of Nienna and Curious argued with Pukel-man whether following an impulse was a kind of decision.
The most interesting thing for me, is comparing Curious’ judgement of Bilbo’s action now, as opposed to the way he saw it then. If I may address a question to him in person: Have you changed your mind?
In 2004, not even Kimi seemed to share my opinion that the taint of Bilbo’s taking the Arkenstone here would remain; this week, Darkstone seems to have about the same idea as I have, in comparing it to an addict’s behaviour. I want to reiterate that judging from LotR, it appears that Bilbo was not properly cured even after surrendering the Arkenstone to Bard – but I’m sure it helped him surrender the Ring to Frodo in the end, which was a really important thing!
And of course, Darkstone took advantage of my question where was Bilbo’s deepest pocket – and answered exactly where it was.  
Threads 6 and 7 once again looked at the dwarves and then seperately at Bilbo.
Back in 2004, the consensus seemed to be anti-Thorin. Arquen thought Balin was criticising Thorin, which was seconded by Penthe (who thought Balin treated Bilbo as a comrade, while Thorin saw him as an employee); Atlas didn’t think so.
After that, Arquen suggested the comment about gold working on dwarvish hearts was to foreshadow the trouble they would give Bilbo. I neglected to ask about this! What do you think?
Nerdanel_50 asked why hadn’t any of the dwarves thought of the bright idea of bringing more torches? And I may add – what of all of their stuff?
NZ Strider thought Thorin’s not mentioning the Arkenstone is because of his special greed, and his mistrust of everyone else. He also thought giving Bilbo the mithril-shirt was just another typical careless gesture; on the other hand, Daughter of Nienna thought Thorin was actually fond of Bilbo, and dressed him upbecause he prefered his companions to be warriors and not burglars (she also noted his alacrity in responding to Bilbo’s fears).
On a wierd note – everybody but Entwife Wandlimb (and Daughter of Nienna) thought Fili and Kili going after the harps was a sign of immaturity, and some suggested their lack of professionalism led to their death in battle! I wonder – did they forget last line of the dwarves’ song in Bilbo’s hole? Well, Beren IV and FarFromHome did not.
I mentioned that the older dwarves were more practical – Tolkien says that of their stuffing their pockets with gems; but I also mentioned their arming. Fortunately, we were joined by terrymerry who showed us some drawings he made, and by brenno, a swordmaker, who helped us with his professional knowledge, explaining why the dwarves would prefer chain-mail and axes.
When discussing Bilbo – it’s funny that in 2004 Curious did think of a reason behind the names of the six dwarves Bilbo called for (he thought they were the most useful ones – but then what of Dori?)
Apart of that, Curious suggested the bat was attacking Bilbo, or at least investigating in order to tell Smaug; Atlas was pretty much against this idea – but Arquen liked it enough to mention it in her summary.
I think the most important episode here is Thorin’s giving Bilbo the mithril-shirt, however NZ Strider belittled it; in 2004, nobody mentioned Reverend’s UUT about the origin of this mail-shirt – which I am grateful to Elizabeth for bringing here.
What I was interested in, was Bilbo’s reaction to Thorin’s suddenly calling his name, and gifting him with the mithril-shirt. I do not see Bilbo as having the moral high ground against the dwarves all throughout the book; and this chapter is definitely his lowest point. However, I did suppress the urge to suggest this feeling of moral suffocation was the reason Bilbo wanted to get out of the treasury – as Tolkien says specifically he felt less the treasure’s allure, and was more afraid.
I think Bilbo’s reaction to the mithril-shirt was a watershed, as this is the first time he consciously rejects the Shire’s way of thinking! Curious argued he did so all along, but never so firmly. I must say that in 2004, Arquen thought Bilbo’s thoughts of the Shire underscored his innate sensibililty, as opposed to the dwarves – but I do not quite understand how she came to this conclusion.
Threads 8 and 9 were more straitforward, following Bilbo and the dwarves through the Mountain, out of the Gate and all the way to Ravenhill.
In 2004, drogo_drogo pointed out that the Hall of Thror conveyed no real horror, unlike Moria; this week, batik and grammaboodawg took a different approach.
I asked a couple of questions about the climate and the course of the River Running; but had I known that “Run, river, run” was used by Arquen for the title of the corresponding thread, I would have thought of something different.
About the way to Ravenhill – in 2004, Arquen wondered whether Balin was actually trying to take over leadership (which I see no reason for), and Daughter of Nienna suggested he was simply the eldest – forgetting the geneology in Appendix A to LotR! However, this mistake reinforces my feeling that The Hobbit conveys a different feeling of the dwarves’ ages than the appendix does – which led to my discussion of Balin and Dwalin, together with the discussion of Dori.
In 2004, far more recipes for cram were posted; and Arquen also asked about dwarf metabolism. Beren IV and Takeo rose to the challange.
Once again – I really love Curious’ suggestion that the dwarves were given cram whose expiration date has passed! Isn’t it just like the Master of Lake-town?
Towards the end of the chapter – Arquen pointed out that Tolkien’s language becomes lyrical, and there seems to be no preparation for fighting Smaug. She also suggested a few possible plans of killing Smaug, and scolded the dwarves for not discussing it – forgetting that they did in the previous chapter! But still, it is likely that the changing circumstances would call for new measures. So let’s consider her suggestions:
What, realistically, can they do? How about diverting the Running River headworks with a temporary dam and flooding the lower cavern, for starters? That would keep him out of the place. How about, instead, rigging a trap and collapsing part of a hallway or something on him? A pit in the floor where one of the dwarves can hide and stab at Smaug’s weak spot from below? Start an avalanche and close off the gate area? Pretty destructive of the infrastructure, though. Does any of these ideas make practical sense? What would you have done?
“Still round the corner there may wait
A new road or a secret gate
And though we pass them by today
Tomorrow we may come this way”
I want to thank all those who have participated in this week’s discussion, and to all those who have lurked. It was great fun!
Last, I want to consider the title of this chapter.
As drogo_drogo mentioned in 2004, the subject of this chapter is Smaug:
“Now I wonder what on earth Smaug is paying at,” he (Bilbo) said. “He is not at home today (or tonight, or whatever it is), I believe.”
But it might refer to others as well – to Thorin (who once he enters his home seeks for a way out, and then has to hear his fathers’ palace being called “a nasty hole”), or even to Bilbo (“How they would laugh at the Hill at home!”).
What does a dragon’s “home” mean? Was this word chosen just for comic effect, or for the kids?
Do you feel Thorin is back at home? Will he ever get there?
What about Bilbo? I’ve mentioned before the noticeable shift in his values. Has he lost his home?
Talking about the shift in Bilbo’s values – I’ve contended before that he reaches in this chapter a low point morally! Really, is the real Bilbo at home?
Is Dori?
In 2004, Entwife Wandlimb wondered why Balin, who seems so nice and rational here, later went to Moria.
Is this so surprising? Is there any reason to suppose Balin himself is “not at home” here?
Another group is disturbed – the bats! However, it appears the birds are returning home.
This is a good sign – to those who could read it. Could you? Could anyone? The dwarves seemingly can’t.
But, as said above, the present Master of the House is Smaug. And while he is around, nobody else will ever make the Mountain his home.
“Now if you wish, like the dwarves, to hear news of Smaug...” –
Stay here next week, and make yourself comfortable for another exciting week – led by SirDennisC!
"When they came to Bill Ferny's house they saw that the hedge there was tattered and unkempt, and the windows were all boarded up.
'Do you think you killed him with that apple, Sam?' said Pippin.
'I'm not so hopeful, Mr. Pippin,' said Sam."
Ferny is a small fish; a delinquette, and part-time ruffian.
But this week in the Reading Room - a real dragon is NOT AT HOME.
Join us!
(This post was edited by sador on Jun 21 2009, 8:38pm)
|
|
|
dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 21 2009, 11:36pm
Post #2 of 19
(517 views)
Shortcut
|
That's quite a summary of past and present, sador!  Thank you for a fun week!
And that's a good point about the title "Not At Home", and the two ways one can translate it: the dragon is not at - his? their? - home; and the uncomfortableness of the Dwarves and Bilbo, who are not yet "at home" with the old dwelling.
Now, for your entertainment, here is a summary of what could have been the plot at this point! From two pages of very early plot notes:
- Bilbo goes down the tunnel the first time, and steals a cup to prove he has been there. The Dragon comes out roaring to hunt the thief, and the Dwarves hide under rocks and dig holes.
- Bilbo goes down a second time. He plays that riddle game with the Dragon, sees the bare patch, and escapes as the Dragon spurts fire at him.
- Bilbo goes down a third time and waits until the Dragon creeps out of the hall. He then steals a bright gem "which fascinates him". The Dragon returns, realizes this new theft, and heads off to Lake-town, setting the houses on fire and settling at the side of the lake.
- The Dwarves see the steam from afar, and want to carry out all the gold. Bilbo warns them the Dragon will return, and says now they need a warrior, not a burglar. He goes alone into the dungeon, puts on the ring, and hides.
- The exhausted Dragon returns and falls asleep. Bilbo plunges his little sword into the Dragon. The Dragon, in its death-throes, smashes walls and the tunnel. Bilbo gets into a golden bowl and floats away from there on the Dragon's blood. He ends up in a "deep dark hole"; when the blood cools, he gets out and finds the source of the Running River, and floats to the front door in the bowl, where Lake-town men find him.
- The Dwarves dig through the tunnel to the dungeon, but find the gold crushed, and unusable because of the Dragon's body.
- The Men and the Elves besiege the Dwarves. Bilbo meets [Gandalf] in Lake-town. The wizard "rebukes" the besiegers, and makes the Dwarves pay Bilbo. He then gives part of his share to the Men and Elves. The latter then escort the hobbit and the wizard back through Mirkwood.
Fortunately, Tolkien struck through most of this "with a single slash", and wrote: "Dragon killed in the battle of the Lake".
Now, all he needed was someone to do the job...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
|
|
|
Dreamdeer
Valinor
Jun 22 2009, 12:31am
Post #3 of 19
(430 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Thank you for all of your hard work! //
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
|
|
|
FarFromHome
Valinor
Jun 22 2009, 1:01pm
Post #4 of 19
(434 views)
Shortcut
|
FarFromHome seems confident:
At this point, Thorin comes across as a hopeless, hollow leader - protecting his own position with fatuous pronouncements. The other dwarves may not see through him, but it's pretty clear that the reader is expected to. Sorry, professor! This reader failed to see through Thorin, and still does.
I've thought a bit more about this, and it seems to me now that what we have here is one of those cultural misunderstandings that we also discussed this week. We are seeing the scene through Bilbo's eyes - we are told, for example, that "it was some time before he could get anything else out of them," stressing Bilbo's frustration and the Dwarves' inaction. But if you read the scene from the Dwarves' perspective, it looks much more like a simple misunderstanding. The Dwarves are from a different culture - perhaps the ancient Norse culture from which their names are taken - while Bilbo is an impatient, modern (or at least Edwardian-modern) Englishman. I still think that Tolkien would have expected his child-readers to feel Bilbo's exasperation, but I now suspect that he was also deliberately writing details that support the Dwarves' point of view as well, if you want to dig beneath the modern surface to the ancient tale.
As for 'Not At Home', I suspect that it may have been chosen to fit Edwardian bourgeois visitors' language - it's of a piece with An Unexpected Party and On the Doorstep. In that context, to say you were 'not at home' was one of those phrases (like 'good morning', or 'I beg your pardon'), that doesn't mean exactly what it says - it might just mean that you are not receiving visitors. With that meaning in mind, the chapter title hints at the uncertainty about whether Smaug really is 'at home' or not.
There's also the possibility that the title refers to the Dwarves not yet feeling 'at home' in the Mountain, as you suggest. That seems a bit of a long shot to me, but again, perhaps it's a question of cultural expectations. If you read the chapter from the Dwarves' point of view, it certainly makes sense.
Thanks for a great week of questions, sador! And for that masterful summary!
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
|
|
|
Curious
Half-elven
Jun 22 2009, 3:29pm
Post #5 of 19
(434 views)
Shortcut
|
Of course, that would explain why Bilbo called on Oin and Gloin. Thanks for reminding me of my previous explanation!
Great point about the possible multiple meanings of the chapter title. Tolkien's titles are, I judge, always worth pondering.
I know most readers automatically identify with the hobbit, but I always felt the dwarves are actually very interesting characters, and far from mere figures bereft of any identity. I do not know whether Tolkien picked up their names in random when he needed a mouthpiece; and I’m sure the coming movies will need to give them an inner life.
What do you feel about this?
Because of Jackson's comments that they will develop the relationships between Bilbo and five or six of the dwarves, I started thinking about who those dwarves would be in this thread from the Movie Discussion -- The Hobbit forum. However, I still think the interviewer was correct to point out that many of the dwarves are not fleshed out in the book.
Thorin comes the closest to having a full character arc, although we don't really get to know him very well. Balin becomes Bilbo's special friend, and that makes him sympathetic, but it's hard to say why Balin takes such a liking to the hobbit. Bombur doesn't seem to learn anything from his adventure. Dori plays an important part in the Misty Mountains, and then almost disappears until he starts looking over his shoulder for Smaug. I don't see a full character arc there. Fili and Kili are the scouts, the youngest, and die in the end, but I don't think we really get to know them, and their deaths almost go unnoticed, especially compared to Thorin's dramatic deathbed scene. And the rest have even less importance to the story, and seem to be tossed in as filler, to make the number 13, and as a chorus, to react as a group to various situations.
For the five or six most prominent dwarves, I think there's some material there to work with in the films, but, with the possible exception of Thorin, I do think the filmmakers will need to flesh out the characters we see in the book. And they might need to resolve some apparent inconsistencies. Bombur fights the trolls and carries Bilbo through the goblin tunnels. That seems inconsistent with his constant complaining and uselessness in and after Mirkwood. Dori and Balin almost switch places somewhere along the line. Dori seems to be Bilbo's brave and special friend in the Misty Mountains, but at the Lonely Mountain Balin takes his place and Dori becomes almost cowardly, with no explanation offered.
The central discussion of the first thread was a tangential one – about Tolkien’s characterising of dwarves as a group. Curious felt strongly against it (possibly because of his seeing the different dwarves as easily interchangeable),
My discomfort with Tolkien's racial stereotyping has nothing to do with my judgment that Tolkien failed to flesh out most of the dwarves' characters in The Hobbit. To the extent Tolkien does flesh out their characters, for the most part they contradiction the stereotype. Even Thorin isn't acting out of pure greed. He is often brave, and his love of the Arkenstone argues for a love of beauty, even if it leads him into the sin of pride. And again, the dwarves don't seem any more greedy than the elves and men and, at times, even the hobbit.
FarFromHome also mentioned that Bilbo was acting here impulsively, and considered it a new thing; Curious took issue with her – and off we went into another long discussion about heredity.
I think in the end we realized we weren't at issue at all. I was just pointing out that Bilbo's impulsive side was dormant when we first met him, that he regretted following his impulses at the beginning of the adventure, and that only gradually did he learn to trust his impulses. I think FarFromHome thought I was saying that he didn't have an impulsive nature from the beginning, but eventually we agreed that he started with a dormant impulsive nature. Neither of us considered it a new thing, but I was the one who argued that only recently had he begun to trust his impulses.
Curious thought Bilbo was acting within his rights, as he is allowed to chose his part! ... The most interesting thing for me, is comparing Curious’ judgement of Bilbo’s action now, as opposed to the way he saw it then. If I may address a question to him in person: Have you changed your mind?
I changed my mind in 2004! Shortly after I argued that Bilbo was acting within his rights I softened my position and agreed that his action was morally ambiguous at the time, although he did the right thing in the end, which is still my position today. Okay, perhaps I am a little less willing to let him off the hook today, but at the same time I don't accuse him of violating the letter of the contract, as you seem to do. I don't think it is at all clear that the Arkenstone wouldn't qualify as Bilbo's share -- as evidenced by the way Thorin altered the contract with Bard so that jewels would be expressly excluded.
After that, Arquen suggested the comment about gold working on dwarvish hearts was to foreshadow the trouble they would give Bilbo. I neglected to ask about this! What do you think?
I don't think it is necessary to stereotype a whole race for the sake of foreshadowing. But sure, I think Tolkien was setting up the big break between Bilbo and the dwarves -- although it was mostly between Bilbo and Thorin. Thorin's feelings towards Bilbo when he threw him out were not clearly shared by the other dwarves.
When discussing Bilbo – it’s funny that in 2004 Curious did think of a reason behind the names of the six dwarves Bilbo called for (he thought they were the most useful ones – but then what of Dori?)
Dori's place as Bilbo's brave and special friend had been taken by Balin, for some strange reason, as I noted above. But yes, I'm kicking myself for forgetting why Oin and Gloin would be useful when a fire was needed!
I think the most important episode here is Thorin’s giving Bilbo the mithril-shirt, however NZ Strider belittled it; in 2004, nobody mentioned Reverend’s UUT about the origin of this mail-shirt – which I am grateful to Elizabeth for bringing here.
More important than Bilbo taking the Arkenstone? I don't think so. And again, it was not a mithril-shirt when Tolkien originally wrote this chapter, or for a long time thereafter. I still think that as a symbol of Bilbo's transformation Sting was far more important than Bilbo's mail, although I like the idea that the mail signified the completion of that transformation.
So let’s consider her suggestions:
What, realistically, can they do? How about diverting the Running River headworks with a temporary dam and flooding the lower cavern, for starters? That would keep him out of the place. How about, instead, rigging a trap and collapsing part of a hallway or something on him? A pit in the floor where one of the dwarves can hide and stab at Smaug’s weak spot from below? Start an avalanche and close off the gate area? Pretty destructive of the infrastructure, though.
Does any of these ideas make practical sense? What would you have done?
They all seem unlikely, but then the whole project was unlikely from the start. Without a warrior or a hero, who is going to stab Smaug in his weak spot? Waiting for Smaug in a pit has historical precedent in Middle-earth -- that's how Turin did it. But you might as well argue that the dwarves should ready their bows to shoot Smaug as he flew in for a landing -- that's how Bard does it. Bilbo and the dwarves, however, are not Turin or Bard, and they are unlikely to have succeeded with either plan.
What does a dragon’s “home” mean? Was this word chosen just for comic effect, or for the kids?
I think it flows from the previous title, two chapters ago, "On the Doorstep." I think it was primarily chosen for comic effect, but very possible for the multiple meanings you mention -- Smaug was not at home, but neither was anyone else.
Do you feel Thorin is back at home?
No.
Will he ever get there?
Yes, in death.
What about Bilbo?
Not yet.
I’ve mentioned before the noticeable shift in his values. Has he lost his home?
Good point! Maybe he won't be at home until he returns to Rivendell!
Talking about the shift in Bilbo’s values – I’ve contended before that he reaches in this chapter a low point morally! Really, is the real Bilbo at home?
Low point is a relative term. I'll agree with you, and still argue that his moral position is at most ambiguous, and that he easily redeems himself in the end. But the moral ambiguity started at the beginning -- this was always a treasure hunt.
Is Dori?
No, as noted, Dori and Balin seem to have strangely switched personalities since the Misty Mountains.
In 2004, Entwife Wandlimb wondered why Balin, who seems so nice and rational here, later went to Moria.
Is this so surprising?
Is there any reason to suppose Balin himself is “not at home” here?
I always found Balin's role in LotR out of character, and assumed that Tolkien chose Balin because he was the most sympathetic dwarf in The Hobbit, and also the most senior next to Thorin. But then we don't really learn that much about Balin's character in The Hobbit, except that in the end he seemed smitten with Bilbo.
Another group is disturbed – the bats! However, it appears the birds are returning home.
This is a good sign – to those who could read it. Could you? Could anyone? The dwarves seemingly can’t.
I doubt that I did the first time.
But, as said above, the present Master of the House is Smaug. And while he is around, nobody else will ever make the Mountain his home.
This is similar to the game Tolkien played with The Lord of the Rings. Does it refer to Sauron, or to any potential claimants? Similarly, does "Not at Home" refer to Smaug, or any of the potential claimants of the Mountain?
Thank you for all your hard work! I enjoyed the week!
(This post was edited by Curious on Jun 22 2009, 3:36pm)
|
|
|
Twit
Lorien
Jun 22 2009, 3:32pm
Post #6 of 19
(422 views)
Shortcut
|
|
thanks for an interesting week
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
although I could have done with a fortnight with all the home work you gave us. I still haven't caught up and managed to finish all the threads, I'll try to at some point but... real life and all that.
I'm hoping that when I see the movie, I will really take to Thorin in the way that I haven't manged to in the book yet - just as I did with Boromir in LotR. I didn't get him at all, didn't particularly like him either but after the movie, I have seen him in new way and feel hugely sympathetic to him. And like Boromir -Thorin gets to die trying to save his friends having at last seen the treasure for what it really is.
|
|
|
Compa_Mighty
Tol Eressea
Jun 22 2009, 3:40pm
Post #7 of 19
(424 views)
Shortcut
|
Thanks for the good questions and the great threads during this week. As always, I wish I could have been more active in the discussion. There some threads I did miss.
To close, I would like to say (in tone with something you mentioned) That I have never particularly cared for Hobbits, and that I do believe most other races in Middle-earth are far more interesting, starting with the mysterious Dwarves. I believe we should prepare ourselves from an incredibly complex Thorin in the movies, who will, at times, steal Bilbo's protagonism in camera.
Here's to Del Toro becoming the Irvin Kershner of Middle Earth!
Essay winner of the Show us your Hobbit Pride Giveway!
|
|
|
Dreamdeer
Valinor
Jun 23 2009, 4:28pm
Post #8 of 19
(408 views)
Shortcut
|
I don't see it as contradictory that Bombur has both vices and virtues, or that sometimes he rises above his vices. I just see that as making him complex and well-rounded (pun intended.)
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
|
|
|
Curious
Half-elven
Jun 23 2009, 4:58pm
Post #9 of 19
(403 views)
Shortcut
|
|
But it's not consistently inconsistent.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
From Mirkwood on, Bombur seems much less helpful, a very different person. Dori also seems to change between the Misty Mountains and the Lonely Mountain, first disappearing from the narrative, and then growing fearful. And there's no explanation for the change. There's the potential for a story about those characters and how they changed, but we don't get that story.
|
|
|
sador
Half-elven
Jun 23 2009, 7:10pm
Post #10 of 19
(405 views)
Shortcut
|
|
"Thank goodness!" said sador laughing, and handed her a cookie. //
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
"We always elected master from among the old and wise, and have not endured the rule of mere fighting men." - the Master of Lake-town.
|
|
|
sador
Half-elven
Jun 23 2009, 7:33pm
Post #11 of 19
(404 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I'm afraid you've misunderstood my intention
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I think the most important episode here is Thorin’s giving Bilbo the mithril-shirt...
More important than Bilbo taking the Arkenstone? I don't think so.
I did not mean in the whole chapter - I mean in the section we discussed in threads 6 and 7 - that of Bilbo and the dwarves in the treasury.
In fact, I think this is a highly effective counterpoint to Bilbo taking the Arkenstone - it does show Thorin at his best and most generous, just while Bilbo is at a low point - the irony of which I tried to emphasize (for instance, in my asking how Bilbo felt when called).
Also, we should note that Thorin's gift probably saved Bilbo's life - at least the helmet, which somehow disappeared in LotR. If (as some have thought) it was crushed by the stone cast which stunned Bilbo - its pretty clear what Bilbo's fate would have been otherwise.
And had Bilbo not taken the Arkenstone - well, the whole story would be different; I cannot really say whether it would have saved Thorin's life. Probably not.
A few other answers:
Dori seems to be Bilbo's brave and special friend in the Misty Mountains, but at the Lonely Mountain Balin takes his place and Dori becomes almost cowardly, with no explanation offered. I think there's more to it; and I tended to think along the lines of Darkstone's response to the previous post.
I don't accuse him of violating the letter of the contract, as you seem to do. I don't think it is at all clear that the Arkenstone wouldn't qualify as Bilbo's share -- as evidenced by the way Thorin altered the contract with Bard so that jewels would be expressly excluded.
Do you think taking the Arkenstone, at a time when according to Bilbo himself "the treasure is not won yet", would qualify as "cash on delivery"?
Of course, you are better qualified to answer this to me; I can only quote my gut feeling this just can;t be right. But as a lawyer - what does "cash on delivery" mean? And is there a difference between Brittish contractual Law and American?
Will he ever get there?
Yes, in death. I think you're right.
Thank you for all your hard work! I enjoyed the week!
Thank you, and all the others who participated.
I enjoyed this week a lot, too.
"We always elected master from among the old and wise, and have not endured the rule of mere fighting men." - the Master of Lake-town.
|
|
|
sador
Half-elven
Jun 23 2009, 7:37pm
Post #12 of 19
(397 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Well, I did my best - but there's a limit to my abilities...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I'm hoping that when I see the movie, I will really take to Thorin in the way that I haven't manged to in the book yet - just as I did with Boromir in LotR.
Do you read that, Guillermo? Here's a challange! 
I didn't get him at all, didn't particularly like him either but after the movie, I have seen him in new way and feel hugely sympathetic to him.
Yes, I think that was an achivement of PJ and crew. We've discussed the change in Boromir before - I'll try to dig up that discussion for you sometime (probably NEB will do it before me).
"We always elected master from among the old and wise, and have not endured the rule of mere fighting men." - the Master of Lake-town.
|
|
|
sador
Half-elven
Jun 23 2009, 7:40pm
Post #13 of 19
(396 views)
Shortcut
|
But I think hobbits are not supposed to be interesting; they are supposed to be familiar, so that we can identify with them.
Thank you, Compa! It's always great when you can participate - whatever the extent!
"We always elected master from among the old and wise, and have not endured the rule of mere fighting men." - the Master of Lake-town.
|
|
|
Curious
Half-elven
Jun 23 2009, 7:47pm
Post #14 of 19
(398 views)
Shortcut
|
although arguably Bilbo would have gotten a helmet anyway from Bard, if Thorin hadn't let him keep the one he gave him. And Bilbo would have been in the cavern if Thorin hadn't thrown him out. But Thorin isn't all bad, and I've never argued that he is. Nor is Bilbo all good. On the whole, I think Bilbo comes out looking better than Thorin -- I get the impression that you disagree.
Darkstone makes a nice argument about Dori, but I doubt very much that it occurred to him before this discussion, or that it occurs to any reader who isn't studying the text as closely as we are. So if there is a lesson to be learned from Dori's fear, I think it goes over the head of 99.9% of readers. Tolkien could have done more with Dori, and does do more with numerous ensemble characters in LotR.
Do you think taking the Arkenstone, at a time when according to Bilbo himself "the treasure is not won yet", would qualify as "cash on delivery"?
Of course, you are better qualified to answer this to me; I can only quote my gut feeling this just can;t be right. But as a lawyer - what does "cash on delivery" mean? And is there a difference between Brittish contractual Law and American?
Normally cash refers to currency or check, but in this case what is the accepted currency in the Shire? I doubt very much that it matches the currency found in the dragon's treasure, so really all that could be expected was precious metal or jewels, with the metals valued by weight, not as currency. The original letter is, at the very least, ambiguous, as shown by the clarifying language added to the agreement with Bard.
As for the treasure not yet being won, note that the other dwarves were filling their pockets with jewels. In light of that, is it clearly wrong for Bilbo to do so?
|
|
|
dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 24 2009, 2:38am
Post #15 of 19
(393 views)
Shortcut
|
I find myself fascinated by how Tolkien came to write the stories - and what might have been!
And a cookie for you:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
|
|
|
sador
Half-elven
Jun 24 2009, 5:19am
Post #16 of 19
(383 views)
Shortcut
|
arguably Bilbo would have gotten a helmet anyway from Bard, if Thorin hadn't let him keep the one he gave him.
Would he? Did Bard expect an attack, and did he bring with him a stock of small-sized helmets?
On the whole, I think Bilbo comes out looking better than Thorin -- I get the impression that you disagree.
In this chapter, not all through the book.
But even that could be open to debate - assuming Bilbo is a "good" person with a set of values we easily relate to, and Thorin a "good" person with more remote values - wouldn't it be natural for us to instinctively consider Bilbo a better person? It probably is, and I do so; but probably so did Tolkien.
The original letter is, at the very least, ambiguous, as shown by the clarifying language added to the agreement with Bard.
So you think Thorin was aware that his letter might be misconstrued (or was already), and added that clause to prevent such a misunderstanding? Interesting - although this might be more of a case of someone who feels bound by his words and responsible for all their consequences. A more litiguous mind would have easily brushed the legal claim aside. But Thorin is indeed more Norse than Roman.
And it is true that Bilbo did justify himself with Thorin's words about picking his own share. Hmm.
As for the treasure not yet being won, note that the other dwarves were filling their pockets with jewels. In light of that, is it clearly wrong for Bilbo to do so?
As I said before - a very good point!
Although it is Bilbo who considers the treasure not won yet, and he took the Arkenstone before he even established Smaug was not at home.
But it leads me to think - it seems that the dwarves were also entitiled to one fourteenth part of the treasure each. Which is very interesting - are they shareholders in a joint venture, rather than subjects of the King? Isn't Thorin entitled, at the very least, to the first pick (to say nothing of the Lion's share)? Or is one fourteenth merely a way to estimate Bilbo's fee, and the other dwarves, while being richly rewarded, would receive less?
"We always elected master from among the old and wise, and have not endured the rule of mere fighting men." - the Master of Lake-town.
|
|
|
grammaboodawg
Immortal
Jun 30 2009, 10:52am
Post #17 of 19
(384 views)
Shortcut
|
|
*wild applause* What a great wrapup!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
It was like going on a journey! *cuts, pastes* I was fascinated that you approached this with the 2 perspectives of hobbit and dwarf. To do the story justice, it really is the way to not only enjoy the story, but the get another level of the Professor's brilliant talent for telling a story.
Thanks so much for this fantastic journey. :D Now I've got to go through and read this again!!!!! CHEERS!
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Aug 10 2009, 5:04am
Post #18 of 19
(371 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Did this chapter inspire Mablung's exploration of Glaurung's Nargothrond, or the reverse?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
This version is of course much more fully developed.
Thanks sador!
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Hobbit in the Reading Room, Mar. 23 - Aug. 9. Everyone is welcome!
And sign up now for The Silmarillion!
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.
|
|
|
sador
Half-elven
Aug 10 2009, 7:04am
Post #19 of 19
(390 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Was Mablung in the early version of Turin's story? //
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
"You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you" - Gandalf.
|
|
|
|
|
Great summary!
[