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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Jun 10 2009, 11:24am
Post #1 of 23
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**Hobbit Discussion – Inside Information** Part 3 – It smells like dragons!
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Okay. I'm going to post the entire debate between Bilbo and Smaug. I'm under the Tolkien-spell, so I can't help myself. But you don't have to read it if you don't want to... or need to... because you have it memorized... right? But have a care! I've littered it with some comments/questions.
Bilbo has reached the end of the tunnel and puts his plan into action.
... ""Old Smaug is weary and asleep," he thought. "He can't see me and he won't hear me. Cheer up Bilbo!" He had forgotten or had never heard about dragons' sense of smell. It is also an awkward fact that they keep half an eye open watching while they sleep, if they are suspicious.
... Smaug certainly looked fast asleep, almost dead and dark, with scarcely a snore more than a whiff of unseen steam, when Bilbo peeped once more from the entrance. He was just about to step out on to the floor when he caught a sudden thin and piercing ray of red from under the drooping lid of Smaug's left eye. He was only pretending to sleep! He was watching the tunnel entrance! Hurriedly Bilbo stepped back and blessed the luck of his ring. Then Smaug spoke.
... "Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare!"
... But Bilbo was not quite so unlearned in dragon-lore as all that, and if Smaug hoped to get him to come nearer so easily he was disappointed. "No thank you, O Smaug the Tremendous!" he replied. "I did not come for presents. I only wished to have a look at you and see if you were truly as great as tales say. I did not believe them."
... "Do you now?" said the dragon somewhat flattered, even though he did not believe a word of it.
... "Truly songs and tales fall utterly short of the reality, O Smaug the Chiefest and Greatest of Calamities," replied Bilbo.
... "You have nice manners for a thief and a liar," said the dragon. "You seem familiar with my name, but I don't seem to remember smelling you before. Who are you and where do you come from, may I ask?"
... "You may indeed! I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led. And through the air, I am he that walks unseen."
... "So I can well believe," said Smaug, "but that is hardly your usual name." [Encouraging, but is it a trap?]
... "I am the clue-finder, the web-cutter, the stinging fly. I was chosen for the lucky number."
... "Lovely titles!" sneered the dragon. "But lucky numbers don't always come off."
... "I am he that buries his friends alive and drowns them and draws them alive again from the water. I came from the end of a bag, but no bag went over me."
... "These don't sound so creditable," scoffed Smaug.
... "I am the friend of bears and the guest of eagles. I am Ringwinner and Luckwearer; and I am Barrel-rider," went on Bilbo beginning to be pleased with his riddling.
... "That's better!" said Smaug. "But don't let your imagination run away with you!" [Subtle direction]
... This of course is the way to talk to dragons, if you don't want to reveal your proper name (which is wise), and don't want to infuriate them by a flat refusal (which is also very wise). No dragon can resist the fascination of riddling talk and of wasting time trying to understand it. There was a lot here which Smaug did not understand at all (though I expect you do, since you know all about Bilbo's adventures to which he was referring), but he thought he understood enough, and he chuckled in his wicked inside. [And Smaug springs his trap]
... "I thought so last night: he smiled to himself. "Lake-men, some nasty scheme of those miserable tub-trading Lake-men, or I'm a lizard. I haven't been down that way for an age and an age; but I will soon alter that!"
... "Very well, O Barrel-rider!" he said aloud. "Maybe Barrel was your pony's name; and maybe not, though it was fat enough. You may walk unseen, but you did not walk all the way. Let me tell you I ate six ponies last night and I shall catch and eat all the others before long. In return for the excellent meal I will give you one piece of advice for your good: don't have more to do with dwarves than you can help!" [Smaug plants the first splinter of doubt]
... "Dwarves!" said Bilbo in pretended surprise.
... "Don't talk to me!" said Smaug. "I know the smell (and taste) of dwarf—no one better. Don't tell me that I can eat a dwarf-ridden pony and not know it! You'll come to a bad end, if you go with such friends. Thief Barrel-rider. I don't mind if you go back and tell them so from me." But he did not tell Bilbo that there was one smell he could not make out at all, hobbit-smell; it was quite outside his experience and puzzled him mightily.
... "I suppose you got a fair price for that cup last night?" he went on. "Come now, did you? Nothing at all! Well, that's just like them. And I suppose they are skulking outside, and your job is to do all the dangerous work and get what you can when I'm not looking—for them? And you will get a fair share? Don't you believe it! If you get off alive, you will be lucky."
... Bilbo was now beginning to feel really uncomfortable. Whenever Smaug's roving eye, seeking for him in the shadows, flashed across him, he trembled, and an unaccountable desire seized hold of him to rush out and reveal himself and tell all the truth to Smaug. In fact he was in grievous danger of coming under the dragon-spell. But plucking up courage he spoke again. [Bilbo struggling with theDragon-spell]
... "You don't know everything, O Smaug the Mighty," said he. "Not gold alone brought us hither."
... "Ha! Ha! You admit the 'us'," laughed Smaug. "Why not say 'us fourteen' and be done with it. Mr. Lucky Number? I am pleased to hear that you had other business in these parts besides my gold. In that case you may, perhaps, not altogether waste your time. [Smaug got what he was looking for]
... "I don't know if it has occurred to you that, even if you could steal the gold bit by bit—a matter of a hundred years or so—you could not get it very far? Not much use of the mountain-side? Not much use in the forest? Bless me! Had you never thought of the catch? A fourteenth share, I suppose or something like it, those were the terms, eh? But what about delivery? What about cartage? What about armed guards and tolls?" And Smaug laughed aloud. He had a wicked and a wily heart, and he knew his guesses were not far out, though he suspected that the Lake-men were at the back of the plans, and that most of the plunder was meant to stop there in the town by the shore that to his young days had been called Esgaroth.
... You will hardly believe it, but poor Bilbo was really very taken aback. [BINGO! It worked] So far all his thoughts and energies had been concentrated on getting to the Mountain and finding the entrance. He had never bothered to wonder how the treasure was to be removed, certainly never how any part of it that might fall to his share was to be brought back all the way to Bag-End Under-Hill.
... Now a nasty suspicion began to grow in his mind—had the dwarves forgotten this important point too, or were they laughing in their sleeves at him all the time? That is the effect that dragon-talk has on the inexperienced. Bilbo of course ought to have been on his guard; but Smaug had rather an overwhelming personality.
... "I tell you," he said, in an effort to remain loyal to his friends and to keep his end up, 'that gold was only an afterthought with us. We came over hill and under hill, by wave and win, for Revenge. Surely, O Smaug the unassessibly wealthy, you must realize that your success had made you some bitter enemies?"
... Then Smaug really did laugh—a devastating sound which shook Bilbo to the floor, while far up in the tunnel the dwarves huddled together and imagined that the hobbit had come to a sudden and nasty end.
... "Revenge!" he snorted, and the light of his eyes lit the hall from floor to ceiling like scarlet lightning. "Revenge! The King under the Mountain is dead and where are his kin that dare seek revenge? Girion Lord of Dale is dead, and I have eaten his people like a wolf among sheep, and where are his sons' sons that dare approach me? I kill where I wish and none dare resist. I laid low the warriors of old and their like is not in the world today. Then I was but young and tender. Now I am old and strong, strong, strong, Thief in the Shadows!" he gloated. "My armour is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords, my claws spears, and the shock of my tail a thunderbolt, my winds a hurricane, and my breath death!" [Now it's Smaug's turn to boast]
... "I have always understood," said Bilbo in a frightened squeak, "that dragons were softer underneath, especially in the region of the—er—chest; but doubtless one so fortified has thought of that."
... The dragon stopped short in his boasting. "Your information is antiquated," he snapped. "I am armoured above and below with iron scales and hard gems. No blade can pierce me."
... "I might have guessed it," said Bilbo. "Truly there can nowhere be found the equal of Lord Smaug the Impenetrable. What magnificence to possess a waistcoat of fine diamonds!"
... "Yes, it is rare and wonderful, indeed," said Smaug absurdly pleased. He did not know that the hobbit had already caught a glimpse of his peculiar under-covering on his previous visit, and was itching for a closer view for reasons of his own. The dragon rolled over. "Look!" he said. "What do you say to that?"
... "Dazzlingly marvellous! Perfect! Flawless! Staggering!" exclaimed Bilbo aloud, but what he thought inside was: "Old fool! Why there is a large patch in the hollow of his left breast as bare as a snail out of its shell!" [Hobbit speech at work?]
... After he had seen that Mr. Baggins' one idea was to get away. "Well, I really must not detain Your Magnificence any longer," he said, "or keep you from much needed rest. Ponies take some catching, I believe, after a long start. And so do burglars," he added as a parting shot, as he darted back and fled up the tunnel.
... It was an unfortunate remark, for the dragon spouted terrific flames after him, and fast though he sped up the slope, he had not gone nearly far enough to be comfortable before the ghastly head of Smaug was thrust against the opening behind. Luckily the whole head and jaws could not squeeze in, but the nostrils sent forth fire and vapour to pursue him, and he was nearly overcome, and stumbled blindly on in great pain and fear. He had been feeling rather pleased with the cleverness of his conversation with Smaug, but his mistake at the end shook him into better sense.
... "Never laugh at live dragons, Bilbo you fool!" he said to himself, and it became a favourite saying of his later, and passed into a proverb. "You aren't nearly through this adventure yet," he added, and that was pretty true as well.
... The afternoon was turning into evening when he came out again and stumbled and fell in a faint on the 'door-step.' The dwarves revived him, and doctored his scorches as well as they could; but it was a long time before the hair on the back of his head and his heels grew properly again: it had all been singed and frizzled right down to the skin. [For the rest of Quest? How long would it take to grow back? If he had to heal then grow back hair, possibly about 2 months?] In the meanwhile his friends did their best to cheer him up; and they were eager for his story, especially wanting to know why the dragon had made such an awful noise, and how Bilbo had escaped. [Bilbo's no longer doubtful? How long did the paranoia last?]
... But the hobbit was worried and uncomfortable, and they had difficulty in getting anything out of him. On thinking things over he was now regretting some of the things he had said to the dragon, and was not eager to repeat them.
The old thrush was sitting on a rock near by with his head cocked on one side, listening to all that was said. [Is Bilbo recovering from the Dragon-spell? Is he overcoming it quicker than others would... showing hobbit resiliency?]
Wow! There's a lot to digest here.
Why do you think Smaug is quick to prove knows the Dwarf kings and their sons by their names?
Given what we've learned from Bilbo's time with Smaug, what clues did you see of Dragon-speech and/or Dragon-spells?
When Bilbo riddled with Gollum, it was a matched game. First one, then the other. Bilbo was nervous and often flummoxed. Here, under Smaug's influence, he feels confident and clever. When did Bilbo realize he'd fallen victim to the Dragon-speech, and did he turn the table on Smaug?
WANTED: Sharing of any thoughts or comments.
***Tomorrow... Gloom and Doom!
[text taken from J.R.R. Tolkien's The Hobbit: Inside Information, 1965 Ballantine edition, pgs 203-222]
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 10 2009, 2:26pm
Post #2 of 23
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"You may indeed! I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led. And through the air, I am he that walks unseen."
... "So I can well believe," said Smaug, "but that is hardly your usual name." [Encouraging, but is it a trap?]
Of course it's a trap. Bilbo and Smaug are playing a game every bit as deadly as the riddle game with Gollum. This also is similar to the game Gandalf played with Beorn, although that was much less deadly. But Gandalf needed to keep Beorn interested in order to bring a party of fifteen into his house.
... "I have always understood," said Bilbo in a frightened squeak, "that dragons were softer underneath, especially in the region of the—er—chest; but doubtless one so fortified has thought of that."
Bilbo sets his own trap. But where did Bilbo learn this about dragons? Perhaps from tales as old as the Norse sagas? Could it be that Turin's tale came down to Bilbo in some form?
... "Dazzlingly marvellous! Perfect! Flawless! Staggering!" exclaimed Bilbo aloud, but what he thought inside was: "Old fool! Why there is a large patch in the hollow of his left breast as bare as a snail out of its shell!" [Hobbit speech at work?]
Note the morally ambiguous Burglar / Spy / Trickster at work -- Bilbo lies, but for a good reason. He has already stolen, and will steal again. But always for a good reason.
it was a long time before the hair on the back of his head and his heels grew properly again: it had all been singed and frizzled right down to the skin. [For the rest of Quest? How long would it take to grow back? If he had to heal then grow back hair, possibly about 2 months?]
I once burned my face with chemicals. It took weeks to heal, maybe more than two months.
In the meanwhile his friends did their best to cheer him up; and they were eager for his story, especially wanting to know why the dragon had made such an awful noise, and how Bilbo had escaped. [Bilbo's no longer doubtful? How long did the paranoia last?]
Bilbo is still doubtful. He's not eager to repeat the whole conversation.
[Is Bilbo recovering from the Dragon-spell? Is he overcoming it quicker than others would... showing hobbit resiliency?]
That's very possible, as we see when Pippin recovers from his experience with the palantir. But Bilbo never fully succumbed to the Dragon-spell. He never looked directly into Smaug's eyes, and Smaug did not enchant him the way Glaurung enchanted Turin and his sister. Bilbo's parting shot, while ill-advised, proves that he is not under a spell. In fact, Bilbo did his own share of enchanting, tricking Smaug into a fatal disclosure.
Why do you think Smaug is quick to prove [he] knows the Dwarf kings and their sons by their names?
Smaug's mention of Girion Lord of Dale foreshadows Bard's entry into the story. He who laughs last, laughs best.
Given what we've learned from Bilbo's time with Smaug, what clues did you see of Dragon-speech and/or Dragon-spells?
Bilbo did very well. I'm not sure I see any evidence that he was under a spell. Smaug did succeed in sowing some doubt about the other dwarves, but I'm not sure a spell was necessary for that. Bilbo was also amazed by the mountain of treasure, but again I'm not sure a spell was necessary. Certainly this is not the kind of spell Glaurung cast on Turin and his sister.
When Bilbo riddled with Gollum, it was a matched game. First one, then the other. Bilbo was nervous and often flummoxed. Here, under Smaug's influence, he feels confident and clever. When did Bilbo realize he'd fallen victim to the Dragon-speech,
I think he started to regret some of what he said when the dwarves asked him to repeat it.
and did he turn the table on Smaug?
That he did!
WANTED: Sharing of any thoughts or comments.
Bilbo really does himself proud here, despite his doubts, but he still benefits from a tremendous piece of luck, for he does not know that the thrush can talk to Bard, or that Bard can hit Smaug's weak spot.
As for giving away the role of the Lake-men, it didn't take a genius to suspect their support of the expedition. If the Master of Lake-town has been less clever and more wise, he might have been as worried about rousing Smaug as the Elvenking, and he might have set spies along the lake to raise the alarm in case Smaug left his mountain. Instead, he was primarily concerned with getting rid of the dwarves and pleasing the people. Indeed, the Master may have been one of the skeptics who had begun to doubt that the dragon even existed.
I like the red glow in your first picture. It looks more like an aura or light with no definite source than a light emitted by Smaug, but I like that option. Smaug's head, though, looks very big. I think of him as more snake-like, slithering through mountain tunnels despite his size, with his wings close to his body. That's how Tolkien drew him, I judge.
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 10 2009, 4:22pm
Post #3 of 23
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Then Smaug really did laugh—a devastating sound which shook Bilbo to the floor, while far up in the tunnel the dwarves huddled together and imagined that the hobbit had come to a sudden and nasty end.
Isn't it over-the-top melodrama? Is there any chance that Tolkien played this for laughs? Or could it be a trope and still be genuinely scary?
I love the way that Bilbo pulls him up short with one tiny question:
... "I have always understood," said Bilbo in a frightened squeak, "that dragons were softer underneath, especially in the region of the—er—chest; but doubtless one so fortified has thought of that."
The dragon stopped short in his boasting.
Contrast this with Turin's first confrontation with Glaurung:
But in that moment Glaurung issued from the gaping doors, and lay behind, between Túrin and the bridge. Then suddenly he spoke, by the evil spirit that was in him, saying: “Hail, son of Húrin. Well met!”
Then Túrin sprang about, and strode against him, and the edges of Gurthang shone as with flame; but Glaurung withheld his blast, and opened wide his serpent-eyes and gazed upon Túrin. Without fear Túrin looked into them as he raised up the sword; and straightway he fell under the binding spell of the lidless eyes of the dragon, and was halted moveless. Then for a long time he stood as one graven of stone; and they two were alone, silent before the doors of Nargothrond. But Glaurung spoke again, taunting Túrin…and Túrin being under the spell of Glaurung hearkened to his words, and he saw himself as in a mirror misshapen by malice, and loathed that which he saw…
Then suddenly Glaurung withdrew his glance, and waited; and Túrin stirred slowly, as one waking from a hideous dream. Note, by the way, that when Túrin eventually kills Glaurung he does so by means of a trick -- waiting for him in a gorge and stabbing him in the belly from ambush. Túrin's pride makes him Glaurung's victim. Bilbo's humility enables him to trick the proud dragon.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 10 2009, 4:25pm
Post #4 of 23
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You have nice manners for a thief and a liar," said the dragon. "You seem familiar with my name, but I don't seem to remember smelling you before. Who are you and where do you come from, may I ask?"
... "You may indeed! I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led. And through the air, I am he that walks unseen."
... "So I can well believe," said Smaug, "but that is hardly your usual name." [Encouraging, but is it a trap?]
Prophetic. Frodo will take the name “Underhill”.
Bilbo was now beginning to feel really uncomfortable. Whenever Smaug's roving eye, seeking for him in the shadows, flashed across him, he trembled, and an unaccountable desire seized hold of him to rush out and reveal himself and tell all the truth to Smaug. In fact he was in grievous danger of coming under the dragon-spell. But plucking up courage he spoke again. [Bilbo struggling with theDragon-spell]
It’s amazing how similar this is to Frodo’s overwhelming urge to reveal himself to the Nazgul.
"I don't know if it has occurred to you that, even if you could steal the gold bit by bit—a matter of a hundred years or so—you could not get it very far? Not much use of the mountain-side? Not much use in the forest? Bless me! Had you never thought of the catch? A fourteenth share, I suppose or something like it, those were the terms, eh? But what about delivery? What about cartage? What about armed guards and tolls?"
A dragon with an MBA? That explains the current state of the world economy.
Old fool! Why there is a large patch in the hollow of his left breast as bare as a snail out of its shell!" [Hobbit speech at work?]
And what did we see a thrush doing to a snail out of tis shell?
The dwarves revived him, and doctored his scorches as well as they could; but it was a long time before the hair on the back of his head and his heels grew properly again: it had all been singed and frizzled right down to the skin. [For the rest of Quest? How long would it take to grow back? If he had to heal then grow back hair, possibly about 2 months?]
Alopecia, like caused by chemotherapy. Hair follicles grow fast and chemicals or radiation damage fast growing cells the most. Even when the damage is healed the hair grows back fine like baby’s hair. Hair loss from radiation can take between six months to a year to grow back properly.
Why do you think Smaug is quick to prove knows the Dwarf kings and their sons by their names?
Descendants are often named after old kings. I think Smaug is listening for a gasp of recognition.
Given what we've learned from Bilbo's time with Smaug, what clues did you see of Dragon-speech and/or Dragon-spells?
I find it interesting how similar Smaug’s temptations are to the Ring's.
When Bilbo riddled with Gollum, it was a matched game. First one, then the other. Bilbo was nervous and often flummoxed. Here, under Smaug's influence, he feels confident and clever. When did Bilbo realize he'd fallen victim to the Dragon-speech…
When he got burned.
… and did he turn the table on Smaug?
That’s yet to happen.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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GaladrielTX
Tol Eressea
Jun 10 2009, 5:59pm
Post #5 of 23
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Smaug would make a good police detective.
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He’s good at interrogation. Bilbo manipulates Smaug well, too. Tolkien might have written some good detective novels had he given it a try.
Why do you think Smaug is quick to prove knows the Dwarf kings and their sons by their names?
Implying that you know as much about the situation as the person you’re questioning is a powerful tactic. “Come on! We know where you were the night of February 18., and we know all about your little 'arrangement' with Carl Barnes.”
By name dropping, Smaug also brags about the importance of the persons he’s slain. There’s also something about his knowing personal things about his victims and not caring that seems callous, too. He’s a villain, all right.
It does make you wonder how Smaug knew their names, though. Did he ask them just before slaying them? Did they introduce themselves? "I am Thrain son of Thor, King of the Mountain, and you shall not pass!"
Alternatively, did Smaug send spies or listen to rumors about the Lonely Mountain and Dale before his attack? If so who gossips with a dragon, and how would they fit into Lonely Mountain/Lake-town society unnoticed?
Given what we've learned from Bilbo's time with Smaug, what clues did you see of Dragon-speech and/or Dragon-spells?
Symptom: “Whenever Smaug's roving eye, seeking for him in the shadows, flashed across him, he trembled, and an unaccountable desire seized hold of him to rush out and reveal himself and tell all the truth to Smaug.”
Diagnosis in the very next sentence: “In fact he was in grievous danger of coming under the dragon-spell.”
(It sounds like the temptation Frodo experienced when near the Ringwraiths to reveal himself to them.)
I have some doubts about the following diagnosis being dragon-spell. It may just be dragon cleverness:
Symptom: “Now a nasty suspicion began to grow in his [Bilbo’s] mind—had the dwarves forgotten this important point too, or were they laughing in their sleeves at him all the time? “
Diagnosis: “That is the effect that dragon-talk has on the inexperienced. Bilbo of course ought to have been on his guard; but Smaug had rather an overwhelming personality.”
Smaug hasn’t said anything that a person with no magical powers couldn’t have. The world is full of persuasive people with strong personalities, too. However, if Tolkien implies Bilbo is unreasonably swayed, well, then, perhaps something more is at work here.
When Bilbo riddled with Gollum, it was a matched game. First one, then the other. Bilbo was nervous and often flummoxed. Here, under Smaug's influence, he feels confident and clever. When did Bilbo realize he'd fallen victim to the Dragon-speech,…
This ought to have been his first warning signal:
... "Very well, O Barrel-rider!" [Smaug] said aloud. "Maybe Barrel was your pony's name; and maybe not, though it was fat enough. You may walk unseen, but you did not walk all the way.”
Smaug is quick to latch onto the word “barrel”. Bilbo might suddenly realize the connection to Lake-town is obvious. Plus, when Bilbo thinks of the pony Smaug talks about, Bilbo will surely realize that it’s obviously unlikely to Smaug that he came by one in the wilds. The only place nearby to get one (assuming he didn’t have one all along, of course) was likely Lake-town. Notice Bilbo doesn’t try any more riddling with Smaug after this.
...and did he turn the table on Smaug?
Yes. Flattery gets him everywhere.
It’s interesting to me that he also takes the opportunity while Smaug is rolling around on his back to make the parting verbal shot. I can see Smaug suddenly struggling to right himself and blast the insolent little creature, but Smaug has unfortunately given him a head start. His awkwardness is almost comical, and again, I picture my poor dog rolling around on the grass and suddenly catching sight of a kitty-cat invading his territory. Oh, the struggling to get to his feet!
WANTED: Sharing of any thoughts or comments.
I love Smaug’s worldliness. Bilbo has been involved in a bad business deal for months, but Smaug sees the problem right away. If you applied to Smaug for a small business loan or mortgage he would point out the holes in your business plan or your qualifications right away, and he wouldn’t give you that loan unless he thought you could pay it back. Smaug for CEO of Bank of America!
~~~~~~~~
The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
(This post was edited by GaladrielTX on Jun 10 2009, 6:07pm)
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Jun 10 2009, 6:14pm
Post #6 of 23
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Who else has been conversing with Smaug?
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The King under the Mountain is dead and where are his kin that dare seek revenge?
Smaug didn't kill the King under the Mountain: Thror died some time after, in Moria. How does Smaug keep up with the news?
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We're discussing The Hobbit in the Reading Room, Mar. 23 - Aug. 9. Everyone is welcome!
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 10 2009, 6:59pm
Post #7 of 23
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Alternatively, did Smaug send spies or listen to rumors about the Lonely Mountain and Dale before his attack? If so who gossips with a dragon, and how would they fit into Lonely Mountain/Lake-town society unnoticed?
Dwarves have ravens, men have thrushes, dragons (and orcs) have bats.
I love Smaug’s worldliness. Bilbo has been involved in a bad business deal for months, but Smaug sees the problem right away. If you applied to Smaug for a small business loan or mortgage he would point out the holes in your business plan or your qualifications right away, and he wouldn’t give you that loan unless he thought you could pay it back. Smaug for CEO of Bank of America!
That can't be the bats. How would Smaug learn about "cartage"? Is it possible that Smaug was capable of listening to conversations from a far distance, and had been listening to the Lake-men for years, and to the men of Dale and dwarves under the mountain before then? Or does Smaug have a bit of Morgoth in him, and a bit of Morgoth's worldly knowledge?
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 10 2009, 7:02pm
Post #8 of 23
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Gold sings to dragons. And who knows what is in those songs?
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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acheron
Gondor
Jun 10 2009, 7:21pm
Post #9 of 23
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It's been a long time, maybe he's just assuming.
With the added assumption that if Thror were still alive, Smaug would have heard about it by now (whether in the form of having a group of dwarves led by Thror beat down his door or in some other manner).
For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 10 2009, 7:30pm
Post #10 of 23
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Maybe sometimes his food backs up on him.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 10 2009, 8:16pm
Post #11 of 23
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Maybe the gold doesn't sing; maybe it recites contracts. "The party of the first part..."
Ah! I have it! The Ring contains part of Sauron's soul, a magical sword contains part of the swordmaker's soul, why shouldn't the money and artefacts of the dwarves contain a portion of the dwarves' souls? And maybe Smaug has overheard dwarven chatter about "cartage." And some of the treasure came from Dale, so perhaps he also overheard the chatter of the men of Dale, some residue of conversations long past. Remember how the stones of Hollin spoke to Legolas?
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 10 2009, 8:19pm
Post #12 of 23
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******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Beren IV
Gondor
Jun 11 2009, 1:00am
Post #13 of 23
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"Spell" just means "word", originally, and that seems to be a lot of the way magic works in Tolkien. If you have the authority to command or the cunning to beguile, then you can work magic, and there is little obvious difference between magic and not magic.
The paleobotanist is back!
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 11 2009, 2:31am
Post #14 of 23
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Especially Bilbo running from the dragon-fire!
I've a question to throw out: Bilbo and Smaug obviously have no difficulty understanding one another's speech. Why? What language are they speaking - Westron?
Bringing this into the LotR realm, would the Ring have anything to do with giving Bilbo the ability to understand dragon-speech - but then, what about Smaug understanding Bilbo? Or is that an irrelevant thing to consider?
And Smaug's spell-casting ability must be part of Morgoth's taint: we will see a similar "spell-casting" when Saruman is confronted in Orthanc. Ah, the serpent's tongue!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 11 2009, 6:22am
Post #15 of 23
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Does he even know the King escaped?
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And why can't he have sources among the goblins? After all, Glaurung did, after a time, collect his own army.
Or at least, he could have heard of the Musterings of goblins and dwarves of the War after Azog killed Thror.
"In that case you may, perhaps, not altogether waste your time." - Smaug
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Jun 11 2009, 4:24pm
Post #16 of 23
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I think that Bilbo was influenced by dragon magic, yet not wholly ensorceled. Hobbits have a strong resistence to magic, yet not impenetrable. It's like he caught a mild spiritual cold, as compared to Turin's fatal pneumonia. So, to some extent the treasure almost made him forget common sense, and the dragon raised fleeting doubts (without the spell, I think Bilbo would have written off the dwarvish omissions as understandable, because he himself had omitted just as much in not even asking about portage, etc.) and he did give away just a bit too much information. But as with a mild cold, it didn't really impair him, just made him uncomfortable.
And I like what you said about the dragon falling under Bilbo's spell. Could it be that the Ring gave him an edge in dealing with a creature of darkness, making Smaug more susceptible to flattery? Even so, Bilbo still gets points for attempting it, without knowing that he had an advantage.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Jun 11 2009, 4:44pm
Post #17 of 23
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The usual suspect might be someone bitter and self-pitying, who thinks he got the wrong end of a deal--gold has a way of causing that effect, especially in Middle Earth. Such a person could be bribed to betray those he imagines to have betrayed him. All dragons have hoards; and Smaug would not be averse to swapping a small hoard for a larger one.
As to how he would fit into society, he would do so sneakily, and gradually wealthily. Nobody inquires too closely as to where wealth comes from in this world. Who now cares that the Roosevelts got rich on the opium trade, or that the Putnams reaped the profits of land seized from accused witches (including an ancestor on my paternal side) or that the Carnegies got their wealth from putting laborers through horrible and often fatal conditions?
I suspect that the ancestor of the Master of Laketown might have had something to do with this. And if a descendant asked Grandpa if the rumors were true, he'd be told, "Silly boy! Don't tell me you believe in dragons!"
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on Jun 11 2009, 4:50pm)
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Jun 11 2009, 4:49pm
Post #18 of 23
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Turin also understood Glaurung quite clearly. Dragons must make it their business to learn the languages of those they hope to ensorcel, since their power lies in their voices. Maybe it's part of dragon-school.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 11 2009, 8:32pm
Post #19 of 23
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Glaurung had Morgoth's spirit in him.
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Like the Ring had Sauron's spirit in it. Maybe Smaug has a bit of Morgoth as well, although he strikes me as a lesser dragon than Glaurung.
Carving up your own spirit was one loophole in the rule that no one but Eru could give life. But it weakened both Morgoth and Sauron to use up their spirits in this fashion.
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Beren IV
Gondor
Jun 13 2009, 8:40pm
Post #20 of 23
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One of the things I think is quite clear about Tolkien's Dragons is that they are actually very intelligent, if overconfident as most of Tolkien's villains are. I would be surprised if Smaug did not know quite a number of languages. He might even know some secret languages, like Khuzdul.
The paleobotanist is back!
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Jun 14 2009, 3:07pm
Post #21 of 23
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Actually, Bilbo took quite a risk
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asking Smaug about this:
.. "I have always understood," said Bilbo in a frightened squeak, "that dragons were softer underneath, especially in the region of the—er—chest; but doubtless one so fortified has thought of that."
"Bilbo sets his own trap. But where did Bilbo learn this about dragons? Perhaps from tales as old as the Norse sagas? Could it be that Turin's tale came down to Bilbo in some form?"
He was not only able to find out if Smaug knew about this flaw, but he also risked alerting Smaug to the fact that he might want to consider if his underside was as protected as he thought. There used to be a gem in that spot that had fallen out. What an ego for Smaug not to be unable to resist flaunting what you'd normally NOT show an enemy at any level.
for he does not know that the thrush can talk to Bard, or that Bard can hit Smaug's weak spot.
Isn't it strange that, given Bilbo's good calls in most cases, that he'd want to chase off the Thrush. If Thorin hadn't stopped him, that bird would never have heard Bilbo's story.
Re: Lake-town's part here... what the heck were they thinking!? Bard was uneasy from the get-go, but wouldn't you think they'd gird themselves for having a riled dragon nearby? I mean, did they seriously think those dwarves and hobbit could do away with that worm drama-free? "Shoo! Shoo! Go away!" I'll bet Bard walked around with his quiver and bow slung over his back or always within arm's reach ever since the boatmen came back from dropping the Company off.
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Jun 14 2009, 11:16pm
Post #22 of 23
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...did Smaug send spies or listen to rumors about the Lonely Mountain and Dale before his attack?
True? Was it a given that any home of the dwarves would have treasure? Did Smaug know there was any treasure or wealth in Dale? I think you're right about listening to rumors and scouting out Dale and the Mountain. That would be how he knew ruled the area first.
(It sounds like the temptation Frodo experienced when near the Ringwraiths to reveal himself to them.)
Good Catch! Also when Frodo's caught by the Eye in Mordor.
GREAT vision of Smaug trying to roll back over after Bilbo's parting shot! *chuckles* I'll think of that every time I read that part... which is VERY Cool! :D
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 15 2009, 1:47am
Post #23 of 23
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Re: Lake-town's part here... what the heck were they thinking!?
Half of them didn't believe in the dragon, and the other half thought once the King Under the Mountain showed up the dragon would just disappear or something.
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