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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Jun 5 2009, 1:47am
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"On the Doorstep" free-for-all: The Desolation of Smaug.
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The land about them grew bleak and barren, though once, as Thorin told them, it had been green and fair. There was little grass, and before long there was neither bush nor tree, and only broken and blackened stumps to speak of ones long vanished. They were come to the Desolation of the Dragon, and they were come at the waning of the year.
Why did Smaug burn all the greenery? Why haven't the plants grown back, in the time --more than a century-- since he moved in? What, if anything, does Smaug eat? Why hasn't he attacked Lake-town or the elves in the Forest?
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batik
Tol Eressea
Jun 5 2009, 3:14am
Post #2 of 15
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Why did Smaug burn all the greenery? Why haven't the plants grown back, in the time --more than a century-- since he moved in?
How long would those stumps exist--being "broken and blackened" as Tolkien describes them? Is it possible that Smaug performs routine 'maintainance' on this area. Maybe the land is kept clear so that he can spot trespassers (umm...usually?) or to prevent anyone from even considering settling here. Actually I think this is one of Tolkien's statements on the environment (of course, we revisit this again later in LOTR)---evil/bad has no respect for the land.
What, if anything, does Smaug eat? Why hasn't he attacked Lake-town or the elves in the Forest?
No doubt someone will have a more sound thought on this. Perhaps he is like one of the *big* snakes--eats a huge meal every 7-10 days. What-- Wandering trolls? Sheep?
100+ years and no attacks on Lake-town? Laziness?
(now I am missing TAH that I swapped for a better bound edition of TH  )
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Tolkien Forever
Gondor
Jun 5 2009, 4:45am
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Assumed that Smaug burned the area know as his 'Desolation' during the attack/takeover of Erebor & Dale (pays to not analaze to much lol). Of course, as we know in real life, the trees would've grown back in that time and everything would've been green again, so therefore Smaug must be re-burning the area.
This, however flies in the face of the residents of Lake-town saying that only the oldest grandfathers have seen Smaug & many even doubted his existence.
Then we have the question of what Smaug was eating & green grass & trees means animals while burnt up desert-like Desolation means nothing to eatr for decades.
So, I guess Tolkien does it for effect & it's better not to dig too deep.
The Ultimate Tolkien Trivia Quiz: http://www.proprofs.com/quiz-school/story.php?titl e=so-you-want-to-be-tolkien-geek
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jun 5 2009, 7:48am
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I think Tolkien is thinking in ancient-legend mode with his description, and in ancient legends, it's often believed by modern scholars that dragons are the mythical explanation for real-world events such as volcanic eruptions or comet strikes. The Desolation of Smaug sounds like the ash-covered, barren land that surrounds a volcano for a very long time after it erupts.
In story terms, I'd have to suggest that Smaug, like a volcano, spreads some kind of poison with his fire, so that life does not spring back after he passes.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Kimi
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 5 2009, 7:54am
Post #5 of 15
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Why did Smaug burn all the greenery? Why haven't the plants grown back, in the time --more than a century-- since he moved in?
I like Batik's suggestion that Smaug keeps the area barren so that he can detect intruders.
What, if anything, does Smaug eat?
Mountain sheep, goats, deer.
Why hasn't he attacked Lake-town or the elves in the Forest?
That might motivate them to attack him, and why take the risk if he's secure and comfortable with his treasure? He probably wouldn't want to go too far from the Mountain (and his treasure) when not driven by necessity or anger.
My writing (including The Passing of Mistress Rose)
Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?
- A Room With a View
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 5 2009, 9:14am
Post #6 of 15
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Really in a rush.
Why did Smaug burn all the greenery?
To prevent the dwarves from hiding themselves in the pine-woods.
Why haven't the plants grown back, in the time --more than a century-- since he moved in?
batik's answer is as good as any. Unless we want to say this very summer, by a strange storke of fortune, there was actually a wildfire who destroyed all the greenery around - but what would that serve? And anyway, that theory doesn't justify the name "The Desolation of Smaug".
Actually, this is a Beren IV question - but I think he wrote once that volcano sides tend to be actually fertile!
It might be simply a case of the dragon's Evil - but then, how much more powerful than Sauron he is! After sixty-eight years in Mordor, only the plain of Gorgoroth was blasted, and the Westren side of the Morgai was still green!
What, if anything, does Smaug eat?
Stray trespassers.
But what did the Balrog eat? I guess these big bad fellows can actually go for centuries with no nourishment, but then are able to stuff whole towns down their gullet (ok, Henry the Balrog - love that name! - is not said to have eaten all these dwarves; but still, he must have eaten something).
And there is always Michael Martinez's theory (can't find the link - has his site broken down?), that dragon receive sustenance from physical contact with gold.
Why hasn't he attacked Lake-town or the elves in the Forest?
Why bother? The wood-elves are powerful, have keen-eyed bowmen and persumably some doughty fighters (like Orlando Bloom  ); they've got the cover of a real forest, and haven't got that much gold.
Lake-town? A bit too close to the water for comfort. And Smaug has become a bit indolent; it takes an attempt at burglary to rouse him.
"And winter comes after autumn." - Bifur
(This post was edited by sador on Jun 5 2009, 9:15am)
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jun 5 2009, 9:31am
Post #7 of 15
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Maybe Beren IV will give us his expertise...
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... but seeing your comment about the fertility of the land around volcanoes made me go and check this out a bit online.
There's plenty there about the fertility of land due to the added minerals after a volcanic eruption, but it wasn't clear to me how long that might take.
And I also found discussions about the destructive effect of volcanic eruptions, including acid rain from volcanic sulphur. On this site, the authors report ongoing catastrophic loss of vegetation:
The cloud forest had disappeared. Tree ferns were dead, and the Heliconius butterflies had all but disappeared from the crater area. Vegetation was gradually dying further down the mountain, and during the next few months of 1996 we watched much of the mountainous vegetation in the Gages valley area turn brown and die. This pattern has continued. On the east side, the lush forests of the Tar River Valley were degraded from ash and gases, and finally destroyed by pyroclastic flows.
If a volcano is still emitting poisonous gases into the air, I think the vegetation could be affected for a considerable time.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Twit
Lorien
Jun 5 2009, 10:20am
Post #8 of 15
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Why not burn the good and the green, most of the bad characters seem to have no respect for nature and enjoy destroying it? I think the desolate land is a symptom of Smaug's evil, or perhaps more like a scar from it.
As for his eating, I vaguely recollect reading about dragons being able to get sustanence of a sort from their treasure too, so perhaps that is an idea. I suspect that having eaten alot at the time he attacked the Dwarves, he hasn't needed to constantly go out for food, I don't think that to him the time period is such a big factor as he is so old. A hundred years or so isn't anything.
Has he been lying around, a bit like a lion after eating? This might help show why he's not bothered about the Elves or Lake-town...yet.
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 5 2009, 2:04pm
Post #9 of 15
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Why did Smaug burn all the greenery?
Burn it all, sort it out later. And since he feeds off Morgoth's taint, as I discuss below, he doesn't need greenery.
Why haven't the plants grown back, in the time --more than a century-- since he moved in?
Apparently Smaug's breath is also poisonous, probably filled with Morgoth's taint.
What, if anything, does Smaug eat?
I think he feeds off Morgoth's taint in the treasure on which he has slept for the last hundred years or more. That's been my UUT ever since I read about Morgoth's taint in Morgoth's Ring, and how gold is particularly loaded with the taint.
Why hasn't he attacked Lake-town or the elves in the Forest?
They don't have much gold, which is particularly loaded with Morgoth's taint. The Elvenking's treasure is mostly silver, as I recall.
(This post was edited by Curious on Jun 5 2009, 2:05pm)
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Jun 5 2009, 9:04pm
Post #11 of 15
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Her novels set on "Pern" make an amusing contrast with The Hobbit. On that world, people ride dragons (n.b. squire: their six-limbs are explained scientifically in one of the later (but earlier-set) novels) and use their flames to destroy the voracious "thread" organisms that fall to earth. Such desolations as Smaug's are there praised: greenery, near homes at any rate, is vigorously fought because it encourages the growth of thread.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Hobbit in the Reading Room, Mar. 23 - Aug. 9. Everyone is welcome!
Join us June 1-7 for "On the Doorstep".
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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Kimi
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 5 2009, 11:42pm
Post #12 of 15
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GaladrielTX made me say it. (Long story, don't worry about it).
I imagine the wild animals roaming the areas just outside Smaug's Desolation, and eating the things such creatures eat in the Primary World. Smaug wouldn't need to eat very often, but every now and again he might go on a hunting expedition and gorge himself.
My writing (including The Passing of Mistress Rose)
Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?
- A Room With a View
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Beren IV
Gondor
Jun 6 2009, 6:37pm
Post #13 of 15
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There was a nice study of this both on Krakatoa and around the Mt. St. Helens eruptions.
Blanketing an area in twenty meters of ash will kill anything and everything under it, even the cockroaches. What is left then is a desert of denuded terrain. What follows, as life moves back in, is a colonization and subsequent growth process known as succession. It involves the following series of steps:
1. Dispersal - plants have to get their seeds in there in order to grow. Some plants are a lot better at this than others, especially if the destroyed area is large (which it will be in the case of a volcanic eruption).
2. Proliferation - plants with short life cycles will reproduce more quickly and cover the landscape. Generally speaking, this means small, herbaceous plants.
3. Competition - Eventually, the whole area gets covered over in vegetation, and the plants find themselves in competition for resources, which can be various things depending on the habitat. In the two volcanic examples I mentioned, water is not limiting in those environments, and volcanic soil is rich soil from a mineral prospective, so the limiting resource winds up being light. Thus, ultimately, the trees begin to shade out the other plants once they have gotten big enough.
Note: The same thing happens when anything removes the vegetation from an area (forest fire being the most common natural example). These events are referred to as "disturbance". The thing that is different in the case of a fire is that the seeds are already there, waiting in the soil for the fire to come along and clear off the vegetation. As a consequence, succession skips the dispersal step and moves straight into the proliferation and competition steps.
The paleobotanist is back!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Jun 6 2009, 8:35pm
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Huffing and puffing to catch up...
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I think that it's simply Smaug's nature to burn things. He glows in the dark and heats up the whole vast chamber even in his sleep. He surely must go on strolls around the mountain, if only for exercise, maybe throwing himself down for a nap or wallow now and then. He can't help it; whatever he touches burns. Maybe that's why he sleeps on a bed of treasure--it's non-flammable.
As for why the Dale folk haven't noticed him in all this time, they haven't had any reason to travel close enough to actually see the Desolation of Smaug.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Jun 9 2009, 4:32pm
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the Brown Lands that haven't grown back, and Mordor. Some desolation is just that... never to revive.
Not all of the area around the mountain was destroyed by Smaug when he first devastated the area and blasted the Dwarves' kingdom. Bilbo talks about all the green, and when they first come to the hidden door, it's described as being grassy on more than one occasion. I'm thinking there's an intensity to Smaug's fire. He can singe, fry, blast, or melt his target... depending on his intention. I think Dale was the "Warning! Do not enter" sign for the world. He didn't completely destroy the life on the sides of the mountain and surround area because he intended it to be his home.
I've also thought he's left Lake-town alone for its convenience. Fast food nearby in case he ever got the munchies.
While he hadn't been out and about (as far as the Lake-towners know) to eat, I've assumed he gorges then hibernates. He's lain on the treasure so much for so long, it's become part of his hide. P'raps part of his strength comes from the hoard. There's a reason why dragons like to accumulate vast mounds of treasure. It could be for more than compulsive satisfaction. It could also empower him... like the sun does for Superman.
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
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