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Kristin Thompson
Rohan
May 28 2009, 5:42pm
Post #1 of 58
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Question about the beacons sequence
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Greetings, all!
I know the beacons sequence in ROTK is a favorite for many of us. I'm writing an essay about it at the moment and so have been pondering it. It's difficult to pin down the appeal of that scene. Nothing really happens in it in terms of the plot. A cut from Gandalf looking out at the second beacon lighting to the shot of Aragorn seeing the last beacon would have made the same narrative point: the beacons have carried the news from Gondor to Rohan. But it's a stirring sequence nonetheless, between the mountains and the music and so on, and a lot of people have commented on it. In the DVD commentary, PJ says it's his favorite sequence.
But let me ask a specific question. I'm sure you all remember that in the shot where the last beacon flares up and Aragorn spots it and stands up, the flame is way off-center, in the far upper left of the frame, while he's in the lower right. (I dread to think what that shot looks like in the fullscreen DVD.) If you can remember back to when you first saw the film, did you spot that final beacon when it became visible? Or did you see it only after Aragorn stood up? Or did you not notice it at all? If you did spot it, was it because by then you were so used to scanning the frame for new beacons that you just automatically checked that upper left section? Do you think it's odd that PJ and company would choose to stick that crucial flame up in the corner of the frame?
I guess that's more than one question.  Any thoughts would be much appreciated!
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Oden
Rivendell
May 28 2009, 5:56pm
Post #2 of 58
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Being a book firster, I still enjoyed the sequence but also found it odd. Three things struck me the first time I saw it in the theater and these still come to mind every time I see it.
1. I am not the expert on the geography and distances of Middle-earth, but when the first beacon is lit in Minas Tirith it is daylight. We then see the beacons progress, it is night time, and then when Aragorn finally sees the last beacon it is day light. I am not certain if the distance and time makes complete sense. Although cinematically, it does work.
2. The scale of the flames to the beacon wood pile to the distance from which the flames are seen seems wrong. The flames are too large and light too fast. Having spent numerous summer nights camping in the mountains and lighting camp fires, the actual beacon fires themselves seemed wrong, even taking into account the fact they used oil as an accelerant (like Pippin did with the movie beacon).
3. I pity the poor person who has to man the beacons and light them. I also pity the person who had to take the very large logs to the top of the snow covered mountains originally.
To more directly answer your question, yes I did see the final beacon but probably only because by that time I had been searching each subsequent scene to see where they next beacon would show up.
(This post was edited by Oden on May 28 2009, 5:58pm)
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Kristin Thompson
Rohan
May 28 2009, 7:00pm
Post #3 of 58
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Yes, it doesn't make a lot of sense.
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On the distances, you're dead right, the scene makes no sense. At the end of TTT, Gandalf, Aragorn, and the others ride up onto a ridge and look east, where they can plainly see the mountains of Mordor and the red glow of Mt. Doom on the horizon. Presumably they're just coming away from Helm's Deep, so they can see as far as Minas Tirith and beyond. It certainly wouldn't take so much time to light enough beacons to cover that distance.
Looking at the scene carefully, it's pretty evident that it's late in the day when Pippin lights the first beacon. In the shot with Gandalf's head in the foreground and the mountains beyond, the light is coming from a point very low in the sky, offscreen left. (That in itself makes no sense, since if Gandalf's facing nearly due west, the sun should be nearly the horizon in front of him.) Night then falls, and the sun is just about to rise in the last shot before the one of Aragorn. Then in the Aragorn shot, when the last beacon flares, it seems to be late morning. At least, given that he's sitting facing more-or-less east, the sun would be high in the sky and slightly south--as it does appear to be. So the whole beacon-lighting action takes from late afternoon of one day to late morning of the next.
That would make sense in the book, of course, where Gandalf and Pippin take roughly four nights to ride to Minas Tirith from the mouth of the Wizard's Vale. The Gondorians would need lots of beacons, and the ones that Gandalf names are only the ones within sight when he and Pippin first see them.
Definitely in the film the beacons flare up unrealistically fast. One has to assume these beacon-keepers are hovering right beside the heap of wood at all times with a lighted torch, and further that the wood is saturated with oil or something to make them burn at all after being rained and snowed on.
But we tend to accept all of that lack of plausibility because it's such a tremendous scene. tennie75 said it well on a thread here last summer: "it's so hokey, nobody would really be able to light those fires so quickly, there no shelter for them there, etc. etc. But the scene works so wonderfully for me--an ancient summons from one kingdom of men to another. Just love this scene!"
My recollection of first seeing this scene pretty much matches yours. It seems as though the lighting of many beacons all over the screen "teaches" you to keep scanning, and if you do, you're likely to spot that last one.
Are there others out there who had the same experience? Or a completely different one?
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Arwen's daughter
Half-elven
May 28 2009, 7:30pm
Post #4 of 58
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This sequence always reminds me of a specific Greek play
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In Aeschylus' Agamemnon, there's a long speech given by Clytemnestra describing the beacons from Troy to Athens proclaiming the end of the Trojan war. I can quote it here if anyone's interested, or you can read the whole play here (it's Clytemnestra's first speech I'm talking about, once you get past the chorus). In Greek, the scene has a fantastic cadence to it. It builds and builds upon itself, pulling the audience -- who know how the war ended -- along with it. It should be a very boring scene, but it's not.
As audience members, most of us probably knew that the beacons would reach Rohan and that Rohan would answer the call. But we don't seem to care during this scene. I give a lot of that to the score but the great camera shots over these mountains are a part of it, too. Imagine that scene if the music were twice as fast or the camera pans over the mountains were slower. It just doesn't work. It's about the pace and the build-up. That's why we start getting two beacons in one camera shot. They have to give us just a little something more each time. Just a little something unexpected.
It's such a great scene, but it doesn't need to be there. In fact, a lot of my favorite scenes don't really have any need to be there. I wonder why, now.
To answer your questions on the final beacon, yes I noticed it every time in the theaters. Part of it is knowing that it has to be there, somewhere. I rarely notice it on my TV, though, even though I know that it's coming. I think PJ put it up in the corner because we need to see the final beacon as Aragon sees it. I think that it has to be from Aragorn's point of view. We have to know how insignificant these beacons are from the ground. They're teeny tiny and the fate of the world rests on someone spotting the darn thing! And then there's half a second where you're not sure anyone has seen it, and my heart skips a beat wondering if it'll be missed (and I know how the movie has to end!). And since we're going to follow Aragorn into the hall, we need to see it through his eyes. It tells us what he's seeing and it tells us to pay attention to him.
Well, this post has probably been the longest thing I've written all month. So with that, I think I should stop typing for a bit. 
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weaver
Half-elven
May 28 2009, 8:29pm
Post #5 of 58
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Lots of layers here, for me...
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I love that the beacons start with Pippin and end up with Aragorn -- from the hand of a hobbit to the heart of the King, so to speak. It unites the two threads of the story -- the hobbit one, and the world of men one -- in a very poetic way.
And when Viggo runs like his feet are on fire after seeing that beacon, well, if that's not a symbolic representation of "hope being kindled" I don't know what is...In this sense, it's very important that that little flame is there, and that Aragorn is the first one to spot it.
I also think this sequence is the key to what makes Theoden choose to ride to Minas Tirith -- in that sense, it's a very crucial part of the plot. Before this bit, the script has Theoden saying "what do we owe Gonder?-- why should we come to the aid of those who did not come to ours" (or close to that anyway). Then, we have this sequence, and that great dramatic pause by Theoden before he says "and Rohan will answer" and immediately starts giving orders...
Why, exactly, does Theoden make this choce, at this moment, and after that sequence? For me, I think we're meant to consider that there are "forces for good" at work --high above the clouds (in a spiritual landscape) which the beacons represent. Theoden is acting because he's being moved to do the right thing, but this being Tolkien, "choosing" to do the right thing is as important as doing it. And so the moment when he makes that choice is very strongly dramatized.
The beacons work not because they make sense, but because they capture some of the underlining themes, connection and spirituality of the book, in a way that is especially powerful in a film medium.
My two cents, anyway...and please tell us more about your essay, as we would eat that up around here!
Weaver
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DiveTwin
Rohan
May 28 2009, 9:48pm
Post #6 of 58
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In answer to the question, I was in fact scanning the mountaintops for the last beacon and did catch it in the theater. After multiple shots of mountaintops alighting in flame after subsequent flame basically trained my expectations to look for the same once we arrived back with Aragorn in Edoras.
I understand how folks would look at this scene and consider it unnecessary for the plot but I look at it quite differently. The entire sequence helps to inject the notion that Minas Tirith won't fight alone against the ever darkening skies coming from Mordor. The moment that signals a time for friendships and heros to arise and answer the call when the need is most desperate. It transitions the movie from only more despair to a sudden hope the tide may yet be stemmed. Howard Shore's score for that scene drives builds into a powerful, passionate pulse for the movie. And Gandalf noting the moment that "hope is kindled" foreshadows everything nicely.
I always consider the end of the sequence not with Aragorn's view of the flame but with Theoden's announcement "...and Rohan will answer. Muster the Rohirrim!" right after Aragorn sprints to deliver the news. If the movie hadn't completely sucked my emotions in prior to that, it certainly does during those scenes. You get the feeling that now all the pieces are truly moving, to borrow another quote from the movie.
I often watch clips from all three Lord Of The Rings movies and that sequence makes the rotation every time ... along with turning the surround-sound to earsplitting levels...
"Do not come between the Nazgul and his prey"
(This post was edited by DiveTwin on May 28 2009, 9:54pm)
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DiveTwin
Rohan
May 28 2009, 9:56pm
Post #7 of 58
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...that Weaver and I were sharing the same wavelengths at the same time. Nice summary!
"Do not come between the Nazgul and his prey"
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weaver
Half-elven
May 29 2009, 3:38am
Post #8 of 58
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...glad to know I'm not the only one who sees what I see in this scene! Well, more what I feel, I guess -- it's kind of like poetry, I guess...it's about the effect, and what it channels, and the imagery more than any logic. A "heart over head" scene, if you will...
I loved that they chose the score from this part of the film for the little bit of music they play from a film when it wins at the Oscar ceremonies -- when ROTK got all those awards, it was such fun to hear it so many times, and it was very fitting to have this particularly piece played while Jackson and company were honored -- kind of like the theme song for something good and right happening, you know?
It's just so nice when the good guys win...
Weaver
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Elven
Valinor
May 29 2009, 9:58am
Post #9 of 58
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OOh! What a nice essay topic Kristen
I love the begining of the lighting of the beacons - we see a view from below of the small walkway which joins the guard watch post and the beacon top - wood neatly stacked in its pile on the beacon tower and the guards wandering along the bridge. What was harder to notice was Pippin scaling the face and almost to the top. As the camera pans over the top of the beacon we realize it must be the highest point of Minas Tirith - its overlooking the 'ships bow' - its a really heady height, yet Pippin obviously has no fear of heights here on his mission! 
We see the guards POV over to Mordor which captures Pippin standing atop the beacon wood. He lights the kindle. Then there is this fantastic shot of Pippin looking into the 4th wall - how they got away with this is just perfect! Its soooo Pippin! Its so brings him out of the picture and into the screen audience for just a second - he came out of Minas Tirith and stood in the cinema with us - it was brilliant. Because he has the smile to get away with it, and its very cheeky to realize he did what Gandalf asked him to do. And then as suddenly as it happens we are snatched away by his Pippin'ish' dilema of how to get down as there's a big fire about to errupt beneath him.
Then we see the beacon alight left of centre and upper 3rd of the screen. (this shot shows the watchhouse - and combining the watchhouse and the beacon would put the scene focus centre top half) - the camera pans about 60 degrees
Thought the rest of the sequences see the beacons mainly in the top 3rd of screen and just left of centre.
The sequences also seem to be a combination of long shot to extreme long shot and panoramic views with the camera moving towards and away from the beacons in shot..
Beacon of Amon Din: Centre - top 3rd of frame - camera pans slightly upwards and brings the beacon south in the frame
Next Beacon - Right of Centre - top 3rd of frame - Camera pan from left to right.
Next beacon arrives from left - bottom 3rd of frame and moves across to centre of frame - camera pans round right to left while moving out to capture a panaramic shot of the distant mountains where the next beacon alights left of centre - mid frame.
Next beacon on the snow capped mountain pinnacle Beacon: Centre - top 3rd of frame moving North to South slightly - camera moves towards beacon.
Next Beacon Right of centre - top 3rd of frame - camera pulling back to show foreground mountain top where the next beacon alights centre of frame - camera still moving away from beacons.
Next Beacon: Left f Centre - top 3rd of frame - camera moves forward pans slightly right until next beacon appears (for a very short time) on the right of centre, top 3rd of frame.
Next Beacon: Centre frame - camera pans back.
Next Beacon: slight Left of centre - mid band of frame - camera moves toward beacon.
Next Beacon: Mid Left of Centre - top 3rd of frame - no panning (with Aragorn in shot on the right bottom 3rd of frame)
So from this I think the majority of the shots are right of centre and upper 3rd of frame - there is only one other beacon seen from the left of centre in the top 3rd of the frame - and the flame on the beacon that Aragorn see's is small - though I can see why they kept this shot still (no panning) as one overall scene to encapsulate a number of story points. As Aragorn gets up and stands - he is centre of frame - there is a facial closeup in this pause - and then we Araogorn move like the wind on foot.
The music really expresses these scenes in distance and urgency - and the perpetually moving camera gives time, flight.
The scene is only 120seconds long from Pippin lighting the beacon until Aragorn sees 'his' beacon in flames.
Awesome!
Cheers
Elven x
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Swishtail.
Tolkien was a Capricorn!!
Russell Crowe for Beorn!!
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Quote of The Week: The thing is I always write in the morning, and I know that if I go to the Net I won’t write ... you can start in the most scholarly website and end up at Paris Hilton dot com .. GdT
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Earl
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 29 2009, 12:13pm
Post #10 of 58
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Duration and time of the lighting of the beacons.
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Looking at the films, I've always assumed that the lighting occurred over a couple of hours and no more.
The scene just prior to Pippin making his precarious climb is the battle in Osgiliath. That battle begins at night (it is pitch black) and continues until dawn (you can see they grey sky now), wihch is when the scene shifts to Minas Tirith (where you can again see the early morning sky). I think Pippin lights the beacons about the break of dawn in Minas Tirith, and as they go westward, it seems day has not yet broken over those mountains... that is why you see the subsequent beacons being lit at "night". I assume it would take some time to light the beacons (though the film does not have the time to pause for that  ) which is why at some point, day finally begins overtaking the extravagant occurrence, and by the time the westernmost beacon that Aragorn sees is lit, day has already broken clear over Rohan. After the Rohirrim ride forth (at the end of the scene in Edoras), we go back to Osgiliath, where it is now bright morning, and the battle is almost lost. So, to put my viewpoint in perspective, I'd say the beacon-lighting happened between early dawn and late morning "Minas Tirith time", which is just about a couple of hours
"Crows and Gibbets! What is the House of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek and their brats roll around on the floor with their dogs! You are but a lesser son of greater sires."
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Alassëa Eruvande
Valinor
May 29 2009, 2:16pm
Post #11 of 58
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I think I noticed it the first time.
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But the "first time" was so long ago, and so mixed in with other viewings, I'm not very sure. Yes, the other shots sort of "educate" you to look for it.
I can't think of much more to add to what others have already said much better. I do love this sequence and the music is what makes it for me. I get goosebumps just thinking about it, and am almost teary over it right now. Okay, I am teary; no "almost" about it!
I love what someone in the bonus materials said about the music. It was probably Howard Shore, but I'm not certain. Anyway, he said we first hear that theme in Rivendell, at the Council of Elrond, when Boromir is speaking. (I believe it is the Gondor theme.) It is only one French horn, and is quite lonely, as we are just meeting someone from Gondor, and Gondor has already started its decline. I think it is when Boromir is describing his dream.
So when we finally get to the beacons, we've still got the French horn, but it is supported by the orchestra. The beacons recall a time when Gondor was in glory, and on better terms with her neighbors, and the music reflects that, in its fullness, richness, and majesty.
*more goosebumps*
I also liked that the sequence was in there. It was a nod to an earlier time in ME, which was a nice replacement for the Gondorian messenger with the Red Arrow. Probably a bit more dramatic, too.
Can I just say right now that Christian Rivers as the Gondorian beacon keeper is mighty fine? Okay, he is mighty fine. Especially that long dark hair and scruffy beard.
*more goosebumps*
We now pause for a fangirly swoon.
*swoon*
As you were.
And suddenly the Ainur saw afar off a light, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame.
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
May 29 2009, 2:23pm
Post #12 of 58
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For me... it's the music *goosebumps already*
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It's as majestic as the massive mountains and endless sky. It all works together for me. We have these HUGE scales of mountains, sky and music pinpointed by the tiny flames and (at times) small, devoted characters there to light them. Those people are established brilliantly in the first few beacons, then the others are implied. You search the mountain tops in anticipation of where the flame will erupt... knowing that one by one across the vast distance that would take days to travel, these individuals are immediately seeing the flame from the other and lighting their own. The sun is rising, the vision changes... it's perpetual! The violins are cascading! It's the small juxtoposed with the huge finally ending in front of Aragorn, simply sitting and eating his breakfast... he looks up and sees the beacon flame. Gandalf/Pippin to Aragorn. You've got mail :)
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
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LEGIONTX
Rivendell
May 29 2009, 3:36pm
Post #13 of 58
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Everything you just said is exactly my thoughts on the movie sequence; one of the few parts in the movies I don't like.
Very majestic scenes, but I pitied the guy who had to sit up on the top of an ice cube. I could only think how cruel his masters were. Just seemed a bit much to me. Funny how I can appreciate all the fantastical elements of the story but not believe a couple of guys get stuck on top of what seemingly is a glacier, to light some wood. And like you said, pity the people who have to go find wood
Being a book firster, I still enjoyed the sequence but also found it odd. Three things struck me the first time I saw it in the theater and these still come to mind every time I see it.
1. I am not the expert on the geography and distances of Middle-earth, but when the first beacon is lit in Minas Tirith it is daylight. We then see the beacons progress, it is night time, and then when Aragorn finally sees the last beacon it is day light. I am not certain if the distance and time makes complete sense. Although cinematically, it does work.
2. The scale of the flames to the beacon wood pile to the distance from which the flames are seen seems wrong. The flames are too large and light too fast. Having spent numerous summer nights camping in the mountains and lighting camp fires, the actual beacon fires themselves seemed wrong, even taking into account the fact they used oil as an accelerant (like Pippin did with the movie beacon).
3. I pity the poor person who has to man the beacons and light them. I also pity the person who had to take the very large logs to the top of the snow covered mountains originally.
To more directly answer your question, yes I did see the final beacon but probably only because by that time I had been searching each subsequent scene to see where they next beacon would show up.
Marching Towards the Abyss...........
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Kristin Thompson
Rohan
May 29 2009, 4:04pm
Post #14 of 58
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I knew I could count on you all to come up with some great observations about this scene! I can't possibly respond to each one separately, but I am glad to find that my idea about the scene "teaching" viewers to scan the frame for new flames seems to have really happened for most of you on first viewing.
Weaver asked about the essay project. A few months ago I got contacted by a British film professor who is co-editing a collection of essays about individual scenes from films. Kind of an intriguing idea. I don't recall there having been a previous book with that approach. It's going to be published by the British Film Institute. Don't expect it anytime soon, since academic publishing tends to move at a snail's pace, and collections are notoriously slow, being dependent on that one very last person to turn in his or her manuscript, inevitably late.
Anyway, I was asked to contribute. I'm sure the assumption was that I would choose something from a film by Jean-Luc Godard or Yasujiro Ozu or Sergei Eisenstein or one of the other great directors I've written about in the past. But as you can imagine, the beacons sequence sprang immediately to mind. That was fine with the editors, so that's what I'm doing. Basically an analysis of the scene, how it was filmed, a brief comparison with Tolkien's treatment of the same subject, the popularity of the scene (I was surprised how many reviewers mentioned it), and fan reaction (including the fact that #15 of the fan magazine was themed around the sequence. That's a lot to cover in 2500 words, so it can't be really in depth.
It's interesting that there's so little coverage of the beacons in the "making-of" material. It doesn't feature much in the supplements, and there's nothing on it in the long Cinefex article. That is, they cover the opening, with Pippin climbing up and lighting the first beacon, because there were flashy special effects involved. But the technology for the rest of the beacons was relatively simple, basically helicopter filming, digital color grading, and CGI flames.
Earl, looking at the scene again, you're probably right that it's supposed to start at dawn or shortly thereafter--but then one of shots in the middle of the scene (the one where the camera moves backward) is clearly the dead of night. So does the beacon-lighting last from dawn to late morning of the next day?! Even more implausible. I conclude that one cannot work out a completely consistent time scheme for all this.
We haven't mentioned PJ's anecdotes about the origins of the scene, how he was intrigued by the idea of perhaps generations of beacon-keepers living up on these mountains, just waiting for the possible emergency when they would finally get to light their beacons. In the book, Gandalf describes "how the Lord of the City had beacons built on the tops of outlying hills along both borders of the great range, and maintained posts at these points where fresh horses were always in readiness to bear his errand-riders to Rohan in the North, or to Belfalas in the South." That sounds to me as though the beacons were located on the tops of the foothills, not the biggest peaks, but of course in a film scene like this, the majesty of the high mountains is necessary. Plus it sounds as though Tolkien envisioned these places as being small garrisons, complete with stables. So they were probably manned by soldiers, not families hired to do this isolated job. But I don't think anybody complains about PJ taking a few liberties with the original in this case, since the resulting scene is just so brilliant.
John Howe says something interesting in the design commentary track, about how people tell him that the beacons is their favorite scene: "Because here is Middle-earth rolling past underneath you, and it's huge. This is finally the indication of the scale of this place. It finally becomes a world, and this sequence brings it across very, very well." In a way that's right, and yet his description reminded me to of the montage scene in FOTR just after the Fellowship leaves Rivendell. It's shorter, just a brief series of helicopter shots around mountains, as well as the famous slow-motion shot of the members of the Fellowship walking through a little gap between two stones, giving us a close look at them as a group traveling. In a way, the beacons sequence harks back to that and suggests that the quest that the Fellowship set out upon now has spread to involve these huge forces that will play such a large part in allowing Frodo and Sam to reach Mt. Doom.
I have one anecdote about this scene from my first research trip to Wellington, in October, 2003. As many of you know, I got to spend some of the time between interviews and facilities tours in the new sound studios watching sound editing. At that point I believe none of the music was ready to be added. In fact, PJ was in London during the first week and a half of my time there, and the score was still being written. (That was the very frantic period when poor Howard Shore was having to change the score almost daily to match the alterations of the editing, as so vividly depicted in the supplements.) So I didn't see the actual lighting of the beacons, which has no sound except the music. But the sound editors were doing dialogue, so I did see the short bit of the sentry shouting out that the second beacon is lit and Denethor's sour reaction and Gandalf's relief and delight. In the version I saw, Gandalf triumphantly said, "War is kindled!" That, of course, is what he says in the novel upon seeing the beacons lit and the messengers riding hell-for-leather toward Edoras.
So I was pretty surprised upon seeing ROTK on Trilogy Tuesday and hearing Gandalf say, "Hope is kindled!" (If you watch the shot with the sound turned off, you can see that Ian originally said "war" rather than "hope.") But the change makes perfect sense. In the book, he and Pippin haven't arrived at Minas Tirith yet and seen all the preparations and the threat of the dark cloud and so on. So Tolkien has Gandalf stress the growing menace. But since PJ places the beacons scene later, we've already seen the threat, and war has already started in a preliminary way, in Osgiliath. So the stress on hope is far more appropriate!
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Lily Fairbairn
Half-elven
May 29 2009, 4:09pm
Post #15 of 58
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about the timing of the beacons. I've always thought that the entire scene takes place during one daybreak. It's just that for a few beacon-moments (to coin an expression) the beacons outrun the dawn. That's the only way you can explain the scene returning back to the battle of Osgiliath, which has been going on during the entire time.
As for Kristin's original question, yes, I saw the beacon above Edoras instantly. It was a fraction later before I realized it was Aragorn and Edoras we were seeing. I love the transition, as "Longshanks" charges up the steps into Meduseld, there's that long pause quivering with tension, and then a martial version of the Rohan theme starts up.
No, when you stop to analyze the beacons, it makes no sense that they'd be all the way at the tops of inaccessible peaks. But it's a fantasy moment, more symbolic than real, one that is nailed by Shore's superb music. I can never watch it (or just listen to the music) would tearing up a bit.
* * * * * * *
Do we walk in legends or on the green earth in the daylight?
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 30 2009, 12:30am
Post #16 of 58
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has its fans getting swoony over the film crew??
(And I do agree about the roughed-up Christian - although I'm also an Eomer and Aragorn girl, so at least I'm sticking to type!)
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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weaver
Half-elven
May 30 2009, 3:08am
Post #17 of 58
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Gandalf really said that? Ha! I'm glad they changed it to hope -- that works so much better in the symbolism category....even if that wasn't anything they intentionally planned on!
Like he did with other parts of the text, Jackson tends to really jump on those moments that have the most "cinematic possibilities", in his eyes anyway. Many of the things he chose to highlight really surprise me... the beacons, for example, were never something that I would have chosen, as a reader, to highlight in a film of LOTR. But Jackson obviously saw something there I did not, and it certainly packs a punch for many. In one of the reviews of the film that I recall, the reviewer cites the beacons sequence and then says something like "I'll say one thing for Jackson -- he has nerve!"
Thanks for sharing more details about the essay -- it sounds like something you could have a lot of fun with!
I have a few questions in response, if that's okay...
1. As a film scholar, did you see the "cinematic possibilities" in the beacons sequence in the books, too? I'm wondering if someone like you, who has studied films, felt that the beacons were a logical kind of thing for a director to highlight in adapting the story....
2. You said the beacons came to mind right away for you, but I wonder, did you consider any other scenes from the films?
Or..
3) Maybe a better question -- what other LOTR scenes, from a film scholar perspective, would you put on your list of "most worthy/fun/interesting, etc. to analyze"?
If you have time to answer any or all of the above, I'd love to hear your thoughts...thanks!
Oh, and let us know when you finish the essay and when it gets published, too!
Weaver
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BallyWhooo
Bree
May 30 2009, 3:39am
Post #18 of 58
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I think that I have always had the feeling that movie-Theoden changes his mind upon hearing about the beacons for more than just right or wrong though I do not dispute that desire to do the right thing is a basic character strength Theoden displays even as he makes poor decisions. Rather, it seems to me that the mere fact that Gondor has used this ancient and long-unused method to request aid reminds him that the fate of Rohan is really not just about the present generation's surviving the day. Like the book, Theoden eventually comes to decide that his actions will live on after him for either the betterment or destruction of all those people before (a dead people have no legacy... note Tolkien's desire to give England it's own legends) and obviously after. The beacons represent the courage and loyalty with which his forefathers (whom he names directly before dying) have dealt with their friends and the alliances they have formed with them... i.e. the beacons have endured and endured. It's a bigger responsibility than "what have you done for me today" and I think in addition, it may finally have dawned on Theoden that perhaps Gondor COULDN'T come to their rescue at Helm's Deep, after all, they can't even send word in person... they are desperate enough to use this archaic method that probably hasn't been tested for a hundred years. In truth, we know that Gondor probably does not send aid because Denethor is too distracted by grief (and, in addition, Mordor...I think most of us have drawn the conclusion that while no palantir is shown in Denethor's hand, it is obliquely referenced in his comment that "the eyes of the White Tower are not blind") to send any... but imagine how much less prepared the city would have been had they sent 2000 good soldiers northwestward when they knew that attack from Mordor was eminent. When the beacon is acknowledged by Theoden, I think he is acknowledging that Gondor really has not failed their alliance... they had good reason not to come (just as Legolas explains to Gimli on the ride to Minas Tirith in the EE that their own kinfolk have all they can do to keep their own borders safe and so, have not come to help)... and now that Rohan is relatively safe, heoden realizes that it is their duty to fulfill oaths taken long ago... and then Aragorn takes off a day or so later to persuade another bunch of people that THEY have an oath to fulfill as well... even if they are dead.
On the flip side... isn't interesting that Denethor upon seeing Mordor's hordes on his doorstep, immediately deflects responsibility and indicts Theodon and Rohan as faithless.
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weaver
Half-elven
May 30 2009, 4:13am
Post #19 of 58
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I tend to see this scene through "poetic" eyes, I guess...but you make a convincing argument about the practical, logical side of it, too...and that adds yet another layer to it, thanks!
And nice observation about the way Denethor responds later on in comparison to this moment...it makes me think about that quick shot of Denethor retreating into his tower as the word that the beacons are lit gets out -- where Theoden "answers", Denether retreats.
There are other interesting Theoden/Denethor parallels in the films, too -- like they way they emphasized the death of Theodred much more on screen, so we can contrast Theoden's reaction to Denethor's when it comes to his grief over his sons.
Interesting!
Weaver
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Elven
Valinor
May 30 2009, 4:20am
Post #20 of 58
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can change the course of history ...
Im very glad to see this changed to 'hope' as well.
Masterfully done.
and great questions weaver - I'd love to know too!
Thanks weaver
Cheers
Elven x
Swishtail.
Tolkien was a Capricorn!!
Russell Crowe for Beorn!!
Avatar: Liberace - The other Lord of the Rings.
Quote of The Week: The thing is I always write in the morning, and I know that if I go to the Net I won’t write ... you can start in the most scholarly website and end up at Paris Hilton dot com .. GdT
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Elven
Valinor
May 30 2009, 4:29am
Post #21 of 58
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I just watched that bit last night ...
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and was struck by the same thing ... how he places the responsibility of his own misfortune and situation on the shoulders of other - of Gandalf, or Theoden, or his own son. Yet all his perceptions are misplaced, even to the point of believing his son is dead though he is being told he lives.
No wonder he got a whack in the face from Gandalf's staff.
Cheers
Elven x
Swishtail.
Tolkien was a Capricorn!!
Russell Crowe for Beorn!!
Avatar: Liberace - The other Lord of the Rings.
Quote of The Week: The thing is I always write in the morning, and I know that if I go to the Net I won’t write ... you can start in the most scholarly website and end up at Paris Hilton dot com .. GdT
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weaver
Half-elven
May 30 2009, 4:32am
Post #22 of 58
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...I've come to like that whack in the face more and more over time. It's exactly what you should do with someone as counterproductive as that...I'd love to do that to some of the people I work with!
Weaver
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Elven
Valinor
May 30 2009, 5:26am
Post #23 of 58
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Lol ... now I could never imagine ...
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you indulging in such behaviour but I know what you mean 
It is quite a pivitol point in the movie - Gandalf finally cracks too - he has had enough of Denethor and that staff-hit broke Denethor just as it had Sauruman - they are the same 'releasing'' action Gandalf uses when he wants to detach - a Wizard of enduring patience!
Thanks weaver - and put that stick down!
Cheers
Elven x
Swishtail.
Tolkien was a Capricorn!!
Russell Crowe for Beorn!!
Avatar: Liberace - The other Lord of the Rings.
Quote of The Week: The thing is I always write in the morning, and I know that if I go to the Net I won’t write ... you can start in the most scholarly website and end up at Paris Hilton dot com .. GdT
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
May 31 2009, 6:04am
Post #24 of 58
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But I know I'm swimming against the tide when I say this sequence, for me, suffered for echoing the grand mountain shot at the beginning of TT, or that one moutain shot in Touching the Void wowed me more than either LOTR sequence. Turning to your good points: 1. Distance and time often don't make sense in these films; 2. The film's beacons don't seem to light sequentially any faster here than in the book, based on how Gandalf calls them out in one sentence;* and 3. Even if beacons somehow could be staffed in March atop snow-capped mountains, they'd often be useless, because the peaks would be socked-in by clouds.
*Though it could be argued that he is seeing just three of them --Amon Dîn, Eilenach, and Nardol-- and calling out the rest from memory, and that the first two are already lit. Even if he can see just three at once, does that suggest that they are too close together? Presumably he is north of Eilenach at this point; there may be more detail in notes from Tolkien's "time scheme", excerpts of which appear in Hammond and Scull's Reader's Companion.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
May 31 2009, 6:10am
Post #25 of 58
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"On, Shadowfax! We must hasten. Time is short. See! The beacons of Gondor are alight, calling for aid. Hope is kindled."
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Would you allow that the symbolism wouldn't work in the book's context?
As a film scholar, did you see the "cinematic possibilities" in the beacons sequence in the books, too? I'm wondering if someone like you, who has studied films, felt that the beacons were a logical kind of thing for a director to highlight in adapting the story...
Well, I'm no film scholar, but I had an image of the beacons --unimaginatively seeing them as described in the text-- and hoped to see them in the film, and was disappointed when the sequence was skipped where the book has it.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Hobbit in the Reading Room, Mar. 23 - Aug. 9. Everyone is welcome!
Join us May 18-24 for "Barrels out of Bond".
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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