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_V_
Lorien
Apr 21 2007, 6:37am
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Silmarillion question: why no Morgoth victory post 2nd Kinslaying?
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Okay, I first read Silmarillion some years ago (before the movies actually) and I never really got a good answer to this:
After the Battle of Unnumbered tears, Beleriand was in really bad shape and Morgoth nearly triumphant....but Turin was such a great leader of men and warrior, that he rounded up various displaced outlaws and turned them into an effective guerilla war force that repelled Morgoth for some time in areas.
Nargothrond got destroyed by the end of "Turn Turambar", and the there was the Fall of Gondolin.
Then finally, the curse made the fight between the Dwarves of Nogrod and the Elves of Doriath killing Thingol (notably NOT the Dwarves of Belegost), but ultimately what destroyed the attempt to rebuild Doriath was the 2nd Kinslaying by the Sons of Feanor, killing Dior (notice that Doriath, one of the mightiest kingdoms opposing Morgoth, was never destroyed by Morgoth directly)
So after the 2nd Kinslaying.....the lands of East Beleriand and the Sons of Feanor is completely smashed, Doriath is gone, Hithlum is gone, Gondolin is gone, and Doriath is gone. The Falas fell after Unnumbered Tears.
Now the 2nd Kinslaying and Fall of Gondolin both happened relatively close to each other and by FA year 510, everyone was finished.
So.....the War of Wrath and Earendil's voyage actually happen around year 598 or so.....
What the heck was Morgoth doing in the intervening 90 year time period?
The refugees from Gondolin, Doriath, etc. founded Arvernian at the Mouths of Sirion and Cirdan moved to the Isle of Balar......so why didn't Morgoth finish them off?
What was the reason given?
and when Morgoth wasn't busy smashing Elves and such...what exactly was he doing? Just running conquered territories with an iron fist? Because if he wanted to strengthen his hold over Middle-earth (perhaps one day to mount a new assault on Valinor?) You'd think he'd have attacked the survivors at Arvernian.
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Beren IV
Gondor
Apr 21 2007, 7:19am
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Ye dost not know the mind of the Gods, be they Evil or be they Goode. 
First off, for multiple reasons, I don't like the timeline of the First Age anyway; six centuries is just too short for all of the events and population dynamics of the First Age.
However, more to the point: Melkor is a Divine being and He is busy doing Divine things. The Elves of Beleriand were one of the many, many, fronts that He was fighting, since He no doubt had many things to deal with in Middle-Earth, as well as manage battles in thought with the Valar during the whole period. I also urge you to remember the mythic nature of the Silmarillion in general; a lot of the details must be left out. The dialogue, if nothing else, is... choppy, and unrealistic.
So what was Melkor doing? Fighting with the other Valar on some medium that is not recorded in the legends. Also, even though the Elven civilizations were destroyed, there were probably plenty of nomads left to stamp out. Also, the refugees might have had some other trump cards to protect them - the Silmaril being one of them, but also just that they were hidden. Making a successful attack takes time, and by now the Elves have learned that they need mobility to survive, since that is what allowed them to survive Doriath, and Gondolin, and Nargothrond! Also, for all we know, Durin I in Moria may have launched a major offensive in Eriador that Melkor had to deal with before it got to Beleriand.
Personally, I think that the Valar are most likely the cause of Melkor's inability to finish the conquest. They are the only real enemy that can defeat Him, and now that He no longer has all three Silmarils, He no longer is able to deny hope to the forces of good - and the Valar are stirring again, as a result.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 21 2007, 12:24pm
Post #3 of 8
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Where did you get the date 598 for Earendil's voyage?
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I've seen a date of 542, with the Fall of Gondolin in 511. And remember that the sons of Feanor were still around after the Fall of Gondolin. Perhaps Morgoth wanted to see the sons of Feanor do his work for him, and gave them some time to assault Elwing and her people -- which they did. Also, Morgoth probably thought he had all the time in the world once Gondolin fell.
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drogo
Lorien
Apr 21 2007, 12:50pm
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Very quick post here since I'm short on time, but this is the one explanation in the Sil:
"But Morgoth thought that his triumph was fulfilled, recking little of the sons of Feanor, and of their oath, which had harmed him never and turned always to his mightiest aid; and in his black thought he laughed, regretting not the one Silmaril that he had lost, for by it as he deemed the last shred of the people of th Eldar should vanish from Middle-earth and trouble it it no more. If he knew of the dwelling by the waters of Sirion, he gave no sign, biding his time, and waiting upon the working of oath and lie."
This suggests that he did not know about the refugee settlement, and was hoping that the Elves would do themselves in, and the hotheaded sons of Feanor with their nasty oath would therefore do the job for him (corrupting the good guys into doing your dirty work is always a fun option for a Dark Lord). Morgoth is nothing if not patient, so he is biding his time and relishing what he takes to be his inevitable victory.
Now to step outside the text, we do have to remember that the Earendil section of the Sil was an early version that Tolkien had never greatly revised over the years. Perhaps if he had gone back to revisit that episode in light of his other revisions of earlier parts on the Wars of Beleriand, maybe he would have put in more to explain why Morgoth didn't strike or didn't even seem to be actively pursuing the remnants of the Elven resistance.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 21 2007, 2:40pm
Post #5 of 8
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In "The Tale of Years" in The War of the Jewels, p. 348, these dates are given:
509 Second Kinslaying
510 Gondolin falls
530 Earendil and Elwing wed; Tuor and Idril depart
538 Third Kinslaying
542 Earendil reaches Valinor
Last year, dna posted a nice compendium of Tolkien's various writings about life at the Havens in the 520s.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Tolkien Illustrated! Jan. 29-May 20: Visit the Reading Room to discuss art by John Howe, Alan Lee, Ted Nasmith and others, including Tolkien himself.
Apr. 16-22: Tolkien's patterns, devices and calligraphy.
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Beren IV
Gondor
Apr 22 2007, 10:52pm
Post #6 of 8
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Morgoth not resenting the loss of one Silmaril. Tolkien always makes his villains unrealistically unable to understand their enemies, and it works in the case of Sauron, but it's just not believable in the case of Morgoth, particularly when Morgoth clearly does understand the Noldor. One Silmaril on the loose means that the other Valar are a problem, and Morgoth knows full well that They can defeat him; they did it before in the War of the Powers. I cannot believe that Melkor was not aware that there were survivors of Gondolin and Doriath that had escaped, and I'm sure that His hope was that the remaining Sons would destroy them, which they almost did, of course.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Pallando
Lorien
Apr 23 2007, 1:49am
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Thanks for the link. We need dna to tell us some more stories!
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In "The Tale of Years" in The War of the Jewels, p. 348, these dates are given: 509 Second Kinslaying 510 Gondolin falls 530 Earendil and Elwing wed; Tuor and Idril depart 538 Third Kinslaying 542 Earendil reaches Valinor Last year, dna posted a nice compendium of Tolkien's various writings about life at the Havens in the 520s.
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For I also am a steward. Did you not know?
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Daeorn Aldalómë
Bree
Apr 25 2007, 12:09pm
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I love this! There needs to be more writing like this.
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