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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Multiple Takes When Filming "The Hobbit"
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DiveTwin
Rohan


May 13 2009, 10:04pm

Post #1 of 32 (1106 views)
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Multiple Takes When Filming "The Hobbit" Can't Post

As a casual fan, I know little regarding a director's approach to actual filming once it's time for that part of the production to commence. I assume there are differences in how all directors approach capturing those images which eventually appear on film to audiences worldwide.

The additional DVD appendices in Lord Of The Rings - Extended Edition illustrated how Peter Jackson would choose many multiples of takes of the same scene, often after getting the shot he wanted. It was suggested he wanted as many different takes ... from different angles ... and from many different acting approaches (as Ian Holm was known for doing) in order to have a plethora of choices. That seems to make sense - the more takes you have, the better chance of capturing THE scene either exactly as you wanted or be surprised by a different take that actually works better than originally envisioned.

Of course a process like that would be impacted by schedules, time, budget and other factors.

So as my mind meanders around the production for this wonderful adventure, I asked myself if Guillermo might approach filming from the same "many multiple takes" viewpoint or if he prefers shooting only until he gets the shot he wants. I hadn't read much on his approach for Pan's Labyrinth or the Hellboy movies so I'm not sure myself. So many scenes seemed to work so well in Lord Of The Rings that I was wondering if this was another way The Hobbit would stay within the Lord Of The Rings world, so to speak.

What do you all think?

"Do not come between the Nazgul and his prey"


MrCere
Sr. Staff


May 14 2009, 6:42am

Post #2 of 32 (703 views)
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I think . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

Guillermo has his own directing style. He almost certainly has a way, a method, he uses with actors to get what he wants from them. I happen to not know what that is, but I don't imagine for even a second, that he will think about how P. Jackson directed things but will instead go about his work they way he usually goes about his work.

I bet watching Hellboy or Pan's with the director's commentary turned on would be revealing regarding the "hows" of your specific question but whatever his method, I think he will stick to his method, not try to use another's approach.

I have no choice but to believe in free will.

The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie

My blog




DiveTwin
Rohan


May 14 2009, 12:54pm

Post #3 of 32 (618 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

Agree with you, Mr. Cere - no question he'll use his own method. And should! I was really just curiouis what that approach was - but as you suggested, maybe watching his films with the director's commentary would answer that for me. Thanks!

"Do not come between the Nazgul and his prey"


Darkstone
Immortal


May 14 2009, 8:53pm

Post #4 of 32 (688 views)
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"Cut in the camera"? [In reply to] Can't Post

Del Toro has indicated that he will be directing everything.

That's pretty rare in a big film, much less an action/FX film.

To me it indicates that Del Toro intends to make sure that the vision of the film is his and his alone.

For example, to make sure that a finished film remained his vision, famed director John Ford would shoot as little film as little as possible. He would "cut in the camera". So that when the studio got the finished film there wouldn't be any extra footage. Thus they couldn't juggle scenes around to re-edit and change the film. They had to accept it as it was.

One wonders if that's what's in Del Toro's mind.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



weathertop
Rohan


May 14 2009, 9:31pm

Post #5 of 32 (611 views)
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depends on how much effort [In reply to] Can't Post

he puts into editing. from the commentaries it looked like PJ was a major force during editing. the studios didn't have as much say in it.

but who knows this time around with an almost garaunteed cash cow are they going to try to pry every little bit out of it or leave it be...


Huan71
Lorien

May 15 2009, 12:04am

Post #6 of 32 (593 views)
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EE's? [In reply to] Can't Post

So, no extended editions then Darkstone?Unsure
Oh dear, i was looking forward to the extra viewing time at home...to satisfy the sad, obsessive in me!

Guillermo Del Toro's Hobbit...
A master piece in the making?!


BlueMan
Rivendell


May 15 2009, 8:30pm

Post #7 of 32 (514 views)
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If you did watch the audio commentaries - [In reply to] Can't Post

on his previous films, a joy which I highly recommend, then you would find that he ALWAYS shoots all the material himself. Ever since MIMIC he has made sure contractually that there will be no second unit - because of the bad experiences he has made with MIMIC. They literally took the film out of his hands and turned it into something he was not happy with.

That's why he's adamant there won't be a 2nd unit on TH.

This does not mean there won't be an extended edition. This will very likely depend on the way things turn out. You don't plan an EE from the start. You write a script that you feel comfortable with, that includes just as many scenes as you deem necessary. During the editing it might however turn out that the film plays better if some stuff is cut out. On DVD the situation might be different again, as you can stop the film at any moment and have a break if necessary. So, the medium allows for a slower pacing than mainstream blockbusters. We will see whether that's going to happen with TH, too.

On GDT's directing style:

He likes to be very precise, almost like choreographing a ballet. Then he works with the actors on the subtleties of their gestic, mimic and vocal performance. That's probably the way he might approach directing TH with its - no doubt - spectacular cast.

Raptos a diis homines dici ...


SirDennisC
Half-elven


May 15 2009, 9:41pm

Post #8 of 32 (499 views)
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Wonder where [In reply to] Can't Post

Guillermo Navarro fits in as DOP?


BlueMan
Rivendell


May 16 2009, 5:42pm

Post #9 of 32 (492 views)
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What do you mean? [In reply to] Can't Post

Where does he fit in? I guess at the head position of the camera department?? Where else? *confused*
Or do I get you wrong? Crazy

Raptos a diis homines dici ...


BlueMan
Rivendell


May 16 2009, 5:46pm

Post #10 of 32 (522 views)
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Oh, wait ... [In reply to] Can't Post

do you mean: What are his responsibilities? That's quite easy to answer: The DOP is responsible for the way everything is lit and shot. So he makes sure there is a beautiful light on everything, he chooses (together with the director, and GDT is very precise here) the lenses and angles and makes sure the camera movements work ...
In this case the angles will be pretty determined by GDT's preparation, no doubt he will do both storyboards and pre-viz. Then Navarro's job will to make sure the details are gorgeous. :)
Was that what you meant??

Raptos a diis homines dici ...


Guillermo
Rivendell

May 19 2009, 12:42am

Post #11 of 32 (790 views)
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Navarro and I- [In reply to] Can't Post

Have been doing this for so long. I know his light and respect and love it. And he knows that I determine movement, lens, length of the shot, etc and draw my compositions and storyboards the morning before, alone. But he then suggests the method and instruments for the best resolution (techno crane, Steadicam, dolly, hot head etc) and makes sure the shot is executed perfectly.

In DEVIL'S BACKBONE we shot up to almost frame precision. With our deadlines on HOBBIT, this comes in very handy. Navarro adapts his style of light to each project- look at NIGHT AT THE MUSEUM or JACKIE BROWN or STUART LITTLE and then look at PAN or DEVIL's BACKBONE. Nevertheless I can immediately identify the way he lights and his luminous signature as a DoP. Some directors have other type of relationship with the DoP, Ours has been defined by years of working together. He looks at my set designer's plans and built and we review the color palette together to choose the light bathing it but when the time comes to actually light the set or the actor I rarely chip in. Everything is agreed before hand...

G


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

May 19 2009, 1:31am

Post #12 of 32 (504 views)
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Thank you! [In reply to] Can't Post

I am genuinely surprised -- and thrilled! -- to see you responding to things on this level of detail. It is a true gift.

Just wanted you to know that it is greatly appreciated.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

www.arda-reconstructed.com


Peredhil lover
Valinor

May 19 2009, 4:53am

Post #13 of 32 (504 views)
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Thank you for that detailed answer! [In reply to] Can't Post

It's fascinating to learn a bit more about how people on such a huge project work hand in hand to achieve the best result!

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


BlueMan
Rivendell


May 19 2009, 2:34pm

Post #14 of 32 (440 views)
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Storyboards & Pre-Viz?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you so much, sir!!

-- One thing that caught my attention: In an interview a long time ago GDT said that he didn't do storyboards but prepared the shots in the morning before driving to the location. I always presumed his working methods had changed as there are gorgeous storyboards in the ART OF HELLBOY (1& 2) books.
But here he sounds like he actually still prepared the compositions in the morning before the shoot - so, I wonder how that all fits together??
Does anybody know something about it?

Raptos a diis homines dici ...


SirDennisC
Half-elven


May 20 2009, 5:52pm

Post #15 of 32 (410 views)
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Ah so [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, this is what I was after. Thank you BM.

And thank you Señor Del Toro for taking the explanation even further.

Sounds like a wonderful relationship.


grammaboodawg
Immortal


May 20 2009, 7:02pm

Post #16 of 32 (403 views)
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No wasted time second guessing... [In reply to] Can't Post

especially in a project like this. It's GOT to be so exciting to imagine the different scenes and how something as crucial as the lighting can change the whole impact! Thank you for giving us a glimpse of how you'll both approach this. I can't WAIT!!! :D


sample

"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."

I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.



TORn's Observations Lists


Oscarilbo
Lorien


May 21 2009, 5:34pm

Post #17 of 32 (391 views)
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well... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think in the end we will be watching a different style after all. Different from PJ`s vision, but just as different as the Middle Earth of The Hobbit is from the Middle Earth of the Lord of the Rings, and that`s why Guillermo`s style will be doing so much good for this one.

Also, personally, I love how he can combine so much innocence with so much darkness on one same shot, visually and emotionally, that`s really special I think.

cheers!

"The World is Changed, I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air"

(This post was edited by Oscarilbo on May 21 2009, 5:37pm)


almas_sparks
Rohan

May 21 2009, 5:49pm

Post #18 of 32 (408 views)
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I`m hoping for a different style [In reply to] Can't Post

Not that anything was wrong with PJ`s, quite the contratry. But 3 movies with the same style are more than enough. So I`m looking forward to two new movies with different style.

One request: please, no slo-mo! LOTR was quite heavy on it but now every movie has it and The Watchmen was slo-mo porn. It`s become so tedious and does not stir any emotion but boredom. So, yeah, scratch that one.

TEAM BUTLER
TEAM GARCIA
TEAM MCAVOY
TEAM SKARSGARD


DiveTwin
Rohan


May 21 2009, 8:18pm

Post #19 of 32 (382 views)
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Confusion, I Think [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Not that anything was wrong with PJ`s, quite the contratry. But 3 movies with the same style are more than enough. So I`m looking forward to two new movies with different style.

One request: please, no slo-mo! LOTR was quite heavy on it but now every movie has it and The Watchmen was slo-mo porn. It`s become so tedious and does not stir any emotion but boredom. So, yeah, scratch that one.



I might not have made my question very clear as many of you thought I was asking whether the movie itself would be a different style or if GDT would film it in PJ's style. I think we all pretty much know (and anticipate) that the whole point of GDT taking over was so that he could bring his style into PJ's existing world and come up with something that is "his" but yet flows nicely within the established Lord Of The Rings canon.

My question was more just about pure film shooting preferences. I thought it was great to have many different takes to choose from when filming Lord Of The Rings (sometimes up to twenty or more takes?) to end up with the perfect scene to include in the final film. That would be nice if budget, time, etc. allows.

I was simply curious if anyone knew whether GDT also did that - or if he got the shot he wanted on the first take, would that be enough? I do not think or expect GDT to do anything just because PJ did, but it seemed great to do a shot over and over (even if you think you have what you want) in order to potentially capture something even better. But again style, budget, time, etc. would also be huge factors.

"Do not come between the Nazgul and his prey"


Runk Snusgrop
Rivendell


May 21 2009, 8:29pm

Post #20 of 32 (362 views)
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Re: "Cut in the camera"? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hitchcock did the same I believe.



almas_sparks
Rohan

May 21 2009, 10:50pm

Post #21 of 32 (402 views)
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reshoot and take 20 takes if you need and don`t if you don`t [In reply to] Can't Post

if GDT gets perfect shot from few takes, go ahead, don`t make 200+! besides, it`s all individual, really. I still think some takes and scenes from many movies needed more shots or cutting out scenes because actors flubbed their lines, effects crew that rendered crappy looking effects, make-up artists did embarrassing make-up job,etc.

There will never be a perfect movie or a perfect scene because everyone has different likes and dislikes. So whatever GDT directing MO is, I`m cool with it a slong as the movie turns out great, not perfect. And not heavy on slo-mo! Wink

TEAM BUTLER
TEAM GARCIA
TEAM MCAVOY
TEAM SKARSGARD


Sharky
Bree


May 22 2009, 12:09am

Post #22 of 32 (426 views)
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Devil's Backbone.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Watched The Devil's Backbone recently, was very impressed. It's a very subtle, emotional film, with great performances. It's definitely up there with Pan's as far as I'm concerned. It may not have as much supernatural stuff, at least in terms of mythic creatures, etc., but I think it's one of the most mature GDT films. Does Fredrico Luppi remind anyone else of Christopher Lee? Laugh

Still have Hellboy II on Blu-Ray waiting to be watched...once I sort out a player and HD TV!

And here we find you, smoking and...feasting!

(This post was edited by Sharky on May 22 2009, 12:11am)


Guillermo
Rivendell

May 22 2009, 2:29am

Post #23 of 32 (605 views)
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The number of takes depends- [In reply to] Can't Post

As much on the director as the actors- Some are great 3 takes in and then lapse into repetition. Others give you new, bold colors every take. So you adjust to that and do "as many as it takes" (my minimum is 1 maximum I think around 30) I hope that answers it for you.

I am dleigted you like DEVIL"S BACKBONE- along with PL is my favoriote movie of mine. Shortly after comes HELLBOY II for the images and creature creation. Hope you like that too...

Best

GDT


DiveTwin
Rohan


May 22 2009, 1:43pm

Post #24 of 32 (331 views)
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Yup [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Guillermo - that does. I have always been curious how different directors view that. I understand Ian Holm is famous for providing a completely different take each time he does a scene, providing a cornucopia of options for the director.

Enjoy the process and we'll continue to be excited as this wonderful journey continues...

"Do not come between the Nazgul and his prey"


Darkstone
Immortal


May 22 2009, 2:37pm

Post #25 of 32 (318 views)
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Yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

You're right, like John Ford, Alfred Hitchcock also left virtually no extra film for the studios to tinker with.

Hitchcock would storyboard his films in pre-production down to the tiniest detail, so he already knew exactly how the film would look. It's said he never had to look though the camera during shooting. (He once said the shooting of his films was anti-climatic.)

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”


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