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Dreamdeer
Valinor
May 12 2009, 7:34pm
Post #1 of 25
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Flies & Spiders IV: Bombur Dreaming
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IV. Bombur Dreaming–Tuesday Afternoon, May 12
As we read before, Thorin warned Bombur that something bad could happen to him for grumbling against orders, and soon after a deer knocked him over into the waters of oblivion.
(Feel free, if you wish, to ignore the questions below and tell us what you think or feel about Bombur.)
1. How do you feel about the lesson that grumbling about following orders can lead to bad things happening to you? Or did a bad thing actually happen to Bombur? Didn’t this misfortune more fall upon those obliged to carry him while he happily dreamed away? What, if any, lesson might one read in that? Or was it, in fact, unfortunate at all?
2. In dreams, falling asleep, especially into an enchanted sleep, can often represent becoming unconscious in waking life–that is, wandering about one’s life following habits rather than really thinking, and not paying attention to much around oneself. I might add that I see Bombur as a kindred spirit to Bilbo (you might agree or not, which might change how you answer.) What lesson, if any, might Bilbo learn from hauling around the heavy, unconscious Bombur while the dwarf dreams endlessly away about feasts far from trouble? What might Bombur represent about Bilbo, and did it perhaps need to fall asleep?
After four days of being carried, Bombur wakes up from his enchanted sleep–right after the rest of the party eats the last crumbs of their food, and while rain taunts them with enough water to make them uncomfortable, but not enough to satisfy their thirst. Bombur has dreamed of wondrous feasts with magical folk all this time, in imagery familiar from many a cautionary old fairytale.
(Keep in mind that in his early notes, Tolkien called his elves “Fairies”. He only changed this later when he realized that the word “fairy” had become too strongly associated with itsy bitsy Victorian flower-fairies with wings, not the human-sized enchanters with whom it is tempting but dangerous to sup.)
3. What happens, in traditional fairytales, to mortals who dine at Fairy Feasts, in the woods or under hills?
4. Folklore often shows others very like the main character taking wrong turns, so to speak, which either delay or halt their progress, to illustrate the pitfalls that the hero should avoid. (The Arthurian legends come to mind, with all of the knights who fell by the wayside in the Quest for the Holy Grail.) Taking Bombur’s experience as a metaphor, what pitfall might it represent to feast in dreams with the fairies, and to not wake up while others carry one--and then to desperately beg to go back to sleep when confronted with the waking world? Has anything like this ever happened to Bilbo? To anyone you know or know about? (You need not name names, or else give aliases.)
5. Do you see any significance in Bombur rousing to consciousness right when the waking-world food runs out?
Far from being shocked at having lain helpless in a coma for so long, Bombur immediately wants to go back to sleep! The other dwarves, quite appropriately, cry foul and insist that he walk on his own two legs.
6. How great is the yearning to dream of feasts instead of marching on in search of them? Compare or contrast Bombur’s behavior with Bilbo’s, here or elsewhere in the story.
7. When, in fandom or outside of it, are we most like Bombur? When are we most like Bilbo?
Ultimately Bombur gives up. “I’m just going to lie here and sleep and dream of food, if I can’t get it any other way. I hope I never wake up again.”
8. Is Bombur proposing suicide? Consciously or unconsciously? Can one unconsciously commit suicide? Is the act of giving up on progress and hope inherently suicidal? Can there be degrees in suicide, and if so, might the lesser degrees (dying a little bit, or in part) sometimes be necessary, excusable, or even useful? Or is it always a bad idea?
As it so happens, Bombur’s dream turns out to be prophetic!
9. Why would Bombur have a prophetic dream under these circumstances?
10. Any other questions or comments about Bombur’s time asleep?
(I also invite pictures of anyone who might remind you of Bombur, or anything else that seems applicable, and that fits tidily on the page.)
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on May 12 2009, 7:36pm)
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Beren IV
Gondor
May 12 2009, 8:31pm
Post #2 of 25
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It feels like going to sleep again
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I had always seen it as a punishment; Bombur will die if he doesn't eat, so yes, it's a sort of suicide, although I don't think that death is what he means to have happen.
Bringing Bilbo's thoughts back into this, I am reminded of Merry's line near the end of LotR, that going back to the Shire feels like falling asleep again, instead of waking up from a dream of adventure. In a similar vein, Bilbo is awake now, and adventure isn't always pleasant, and he wishes he were back in his hobbit hole, asleep if you will. But we all know that Bilbo can't really go back to sleep when he gets back!
The paleobotanist is back!
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Curious
Half-elven
May 12 2009, 8:41pm
Post #3 of 25
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And unfortunately, I'm unavailable from Thursday through Sunday this week. So I'm afraid I will have to save your excellent questions for later.
A lot happens in this chapter, doesn't it? I'm not sure if it is necessarily the longest chapter, although it might be (it's hard to tell from The Annotated Hobbit because of the annotations) but it literally and figuratively covers a lot of ground.
I do like the idea of Mirkwood forest as a birth canal! Although I'm not sure Tolkien had that exact image in mind. Still, I judge that there is a lot of rebirthing imagery in this chapter, and I do think Tolkien intended to show Bilbo undergoing a transformation. Tolkien loves the pairing of tunnels and transformation, and this is one looooooong tunnel.
Anyway, I'll look in again next week, and probably not before then.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
May 12 2009, 9:36pm
Post #4 of 25
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Unexpected Party 9%
Roast Mutton 5%
Short Rest 3%
Over Hill and Under Hill 4%
Riddles in the Dark 7%
Out of the Frying-pan into the Fire 7%
Queer Lodgings 10%
Flies and Spiders 11%
Barrels out of Bond 6%
Warm Welcome 4%
On the Doorstep 3%
Inside Information 8%
Not at Home 4%
Fire and Water 3%
Gathering of the Clouds 4%
Thief in the Night 2%
Clouds Burst 4%
Return Journey 3%
Last Stage 3%
Flies and Spiders 10221
Queer Lodgings 9026
Unexpected Party 8726
Inside Information 7148
Riddles in the Dark 6984
Out of the Frying-pan into the Fire 6714
Barrels out of Bond 5832
Roast Mutton 5251
Over Hill and Under Hill 4057
Clouds Burst 3943
Warm Welcome 3930
Not at Home 3916
Gathering of the Clouds 3367
Fire and Water 3237
On the Doorstep 2995
Short Rest 2878
Return Journey 2811
Last Stage 2470
Thief in the Night 2164
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Hobbit in the Reading Room, Mar. 23 - Aug. 9. Everyone is welcome!
Join us May 11-17 for "Flies and Spiders".
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
May 12 2009, 9:44pm
Post #5 of 25
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And don't worry about keeping up--you have already contributed amply. We will accept your absence as a Gandalf-like departure in the thick of things, after getting us off to a fine start, and expect you when we see you (perhaps to save the day at the last minute?)
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
May 12 2009, 9:45pm
Post #6 of 25
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And here I picked it because I thought it intriguing--without checking length!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Twit
Lorien
May 14 2009, 9:36am
Post #7 of 25
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1. How do you feel about the lesson that grumbling about following orders can lead to bad things happening to you? Or did a bad thing actually happen to Bombur? Didn’t this misfortune more fall upon those obliged to carry him while he happily dreamed away? What, if any, lesson might one read in that? Or was it, in fact, unfortunate at all?
Perhaps this was a punishment for everyone, Bombur cannot eat, and may eventually starve, Bilbo and the Dwarves get to eat Bombur's share of the rations, (and not have to listen to him complaining) but the price they have to pay is that they have to carry him.
2. In dreams, falling asleep, especially into an enchanted sleep, can often represent becoming unconscious in waking life–that is, wandering about one’s life following habits rather than really thinking, and not paying attention to much around oneself. I might add that I see Bombur as a kindred spirit to Bilbo (you might agree or not, which might change how you answer.) What lesson, if any, might Bilbo learn from hauling around the heavy, unconscious Bombur while the dwarf dreams endlessly away about feasts far from trouble? What might Bombur represent about Bilbo, and did it perhaps need to fall asleep?
Possibly Bombur represents the lazier, greedier side of Bilbo that we first read about at the beginning of the book, that being whiny and greedy isn't a Good Thing.
3. What happens, in traditional fairytales, to mortals who dine at Fairy Feasts, in the woods or under hills?
They either fall asleep for many years, or return home only to find many years have passed since they left.
4. Folklore often shows others very like the main character taking wrong turns, so to speak, which either delay or halt their progress, to illustrate the pitfalls that the hero should avoid. (The Arthurian legends come to mind, with all of the knights who fell by the wayside in the Quest for the Holy Grail.) Taking Bombur’s experience as a metaphor, what pitfall might it represent to feast in dreams with the fairies, and to not wake up while others carry one--and then to desperately beg to go back to sleep when confronted with the waking world? Has anything like this ever happened to Bilbo? To anyone you know or know about? (You need not name names, or else give aliases.)
Bilbo kept wishing he was back home earlier in the book, that seems similar. Mind you if I was Bombur and woke up whilst dreaming about feasts, I'd want to go back to sleep. Sometimes waking from a nice dream can be quite sad.
5. Do you see any significance in Bombur rousing to consciousness right when the waking-world food runs out?
Serves him right, he probably sensed the food was gone.
6. How great is the yearning to dream of feasts instead of marching on in search of them? Compare or contrast Bombur’s behavior with Bilbo’s, here or elsewhere in the story.
Dreaming of feasts or Hobbit holes is easier than keeping on going sometimes
7. When, in fandom or outside of it, are we most like Bombur? When are we most like Bilbo?
When what we are striving for, working towards seems just out of our reach, we can feel like stopping or giving up.
8. Is Bombur proposing suicide? Consciously or unconsciously? Can one unconsciously commit suicide? Is the act of giving up on progress and hope inherently suicidal? Can there be degrees in suicide, and if so, might the lesser degrees (dying a little bit, or in part) sometimes be necessary, excusable, or even useful? Or is it always a bad idea?
I thought he was perhaps being a bit of a drama queen to be honest. It's the sort of thing my 10 year old son might say, you know along the lines of ' that is soooo unfair'. Giving up on progress or hope isn't a physical suicide, but an internal spritual one maybe. Of course that may end up with actual death.
9. Why would Bombur have a prophetic dream under these circumstances?
Perhaps, unconscious, he is able to perceive the Elves through their 'magic' when the others can't because they are pre-occupied with the here and now.
10. Any other questions or comments about Bombur’s time asleep?
Does he snore?
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sador
Half-elven
May 14 2009, 12:57pm
Post #8 of 25
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1. How do you feel about the lesson that grumbling about following orders can lead to bad things happening to you?
It's fun.
And good for the kids, especially to balance against all the other occasions in which Tolkien seems subversive.
Or did a bad thing actually happen to Bombur? Didn’t this misfortune more fall upon those obliged to carry him while he happily dreamed away?
That's clearly true.
What, if any, lesson might one read in that?
That deer are dangerous customers.
Or was it, in fact, unfortunate at all?
It was fortunate Bombur was last! Just shows, that obeying after grumbling is better than disobeying.
2. In dreams, falling asleep, especially into an enchanted sleep, can often represent becoming unconscious in waking life–that is, wandering about one’s life following habits rather than really thinking, and not paying attention to much around oneself. I might add that I see Bombur as a kindred spirit to Bilbo (you might agree or not, which might change how you answer.) What lesson, if any, might Bilbo learn from hauling around the heavy, unconscious Bombur while the dwarf dreams endlessly away about feasts far from trouble? What might Bombur represent about Bilbo, and did it perhaps need to fall asleep?
We discussed it when squire led 'An Unexpected Party'.
I repeat what I said then: of course Bombur is similar to Bilbo. But Bombur belongs to the heroic world of the dwarves, while Bilbo is always at least half an alien.
An alien in Faerie might do good with being fat and lazy, and caring more about meals than the Quest he is undertaking. A native who shows these traits could hope to be a figure of fun at best; more often, he becomes a subject of scorn, or contempt.
3. What happens, in traditional fairytales, to mortals who dine at Fairy Feasts, in the woods or under hills?
Not my expertise.
4. Folklore often shows others very like the main character taking wrong turns, so to speak, which either delay or halt their progress, to illustrate the pitfalls that the hero should avoid. (The Arthurian legends come to mind, with all of the knights who fell by the wayside in the Quest for the Holy Grail.) Taking Bombur’s experience as a metaphor, what pitfall might it represent to feast in dreams with the fairies, and to not wake up while others carry one--and then to desperately beg to go back to sleep when confronted with the waking world? Has anything like this ever happened to Bilbo? To anyone you know or know about? (You need not name names, or else give aliases.)
Again, nothing comes to mind.
5. Do you see any significance in Bombur rousing to consciousness right when the waking-world food runs out?
Sheer comedy.
6. How great is the yearning to dream of feasts instead of marching on in search of them? Compare or contrast Bombur’s behavior with Bilbo’s, here or elsewhere in the story.
Tremendous!
It's always easier and nicer to dream of some good event happening, than making it happen. Like trying to ask out the girl you admire, or staring a diet.
7. When, in fandom or outside of it, are we most like Bombur? When are we most like Bilbo?
As I've said before, I hope I am still half an outsider, and therefore a valuable contributor. When I'll get naturalised I'll be considered unsatisfactory.
8. Is Bombur proposing suicide? Consciously or unconsciously?
Not really. Just grumbling.
Can one unconsciously commit suicide? Is the act of giving up on progress and hope inherently suicidal?
In a way. This reminds of Jack London's To Build a Fire.
Can there be degrees in suicide, and if so, might the lesser degrees (dying a little bit, or in part) sometimes be necessary, excusable, or even useful?
What do you mean by "dying a little bit, or in part"? I'm not sure I understood.
Anyway, we last discussed it in Saelind's Founder's Day thread.
Or is it always a bad idea?
It's a wonderful idea! Like all the ideas originating from Old Nick. 
9. Why would Bombur have a prophetic dream under these circumstances?
What do you mean by "prophetic"? If (as you seem to have agreed) the enchantment in elvish, is it difficult to conceive he dreams of elves?
10. Any other questions or comments about Bombur’s time asleep?
A stupid story from my school days:
We were given a test, part of which was a 'closed passage' excersize, in which we had to fit the right word to the text.
The passage dealt with animals in winter, and touched upon the phenomenon of hibernation. We had to complete the sentence: "Hibernation is _____ than sleep".
Without stopping to think, I wrote: 'better'.
"Don't start grumbling against orders, or something bad will happen to you." - Thorin
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
May 14 2009, 1:27pm
Post #9 of 25
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I liked your answers. "Does he snore?" I don't know, but that might be a fun embellishment for the movies!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
May 14 2009, 1:40pm
Post #10 of 25
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There are a number of possible ways to interpret dying in part. Sometimes, when confronted with a suicidal person, I have calmed them by asking, "What part of you needs to die?" In that way I acknowledge the urgency that that they feel, while offering them a way out of their impasse. It might be, "The part of me that tries to please everyone at once," or "the part of me that gambles and keeps messing up my life," or "the perfectionist part of me," etc.
Another possible interpretation is the partial death of escapism. Escaping into books, daydreaming, or other art forms can be a welcome vacation that does good, if not indulged to excess. Escaping into addiction can be bad, yet better than suicide, because at least it is a potentially reversible death.
Then there is religious mortification, to die to this world so as to prepare for the next. I have mixed feelings about that.
One might come up with still other interpretations. All are welcome!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Darkstone
Immortal
May 14 2009, 3:50pm
Post #11 of 25
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"..and count myself a king of infinite banquets..."
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Frodo himself, after the first shock, found that being his own master and *the* Mr. Baggins of Bag End was rather pleasant. For some years he was quite happy and did not worry much about the future. But half unknown to himself the regret that he had not gone with Bilbo was steadily growing. He found himself wondering at times, especially in the autumn, about the wild lands, and strange visions of mountains that he had never seen came into his dreams. He began to say to himself: 'Perhaps I shall cross the River myself one day.' To which the other half of his mind always replied: 'Not yet.'
-The Shadow of the Past
1. How do you feel about the lesson that grumbling about following orders can lead to bad things happening to you?
Especially if the one giving the orders hears you.
“Did I say a 20 mile hike? I meant 30 miles!”
Or did a bad thing actually happen to Bombur?
Yep.
Didn’t this misfortune more fall upon those obliged to carry him while he happily dreamed away?
Oh, I’m sure they dropped him a few times. He no doubt woke up with all sorts of bruises.
And they’ll never let him forget it.
“We are quite annoyed enough with you as it is.”
What, if any, lesson might one read in that?
Don’t get your fellow adventures mad at you.
Or was it, in fact, unfortunate at all?
Remember what happened to Hoppy in “The Story of Dr. Wassell” (1944)? After lording it over the others by being carried around all through the movie, he seemingly gets killed when the ambulance he is in is lost. (Though a tacked on post script to the film reveals the then current information that he survived and now is in a Japanese POW camp. Which in hindsight really isn’t much of an improvement.)
2. In dreams, falling asleep, especially into an enchanted sleep, can often represent becoming unconscious in waking life–that is, wandering about one’s life following habits rather than really thinking, and not paying attention to much around oneself. I might add that I see Bombur as a kindred spirit to Bilbo (you might agree or not, which might change how you answer.) What lesson, if any, might Bilbo learn from hauling around the heavy, unconscious Bombur while the dwarf dreams endlessly away about feasts far from trouble?
Worldly possessions burden one down, and prevent one from helping one’s family and friends, and pursuing one’s heart’s desire.
Nicely represented in the scene between Sarah and the Junk Woman in Labyrinth (1986).
What might Bombur represent about Bilbo, and did it perhaps need to fall asleep?
“Sure, if more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. But let’s not go overboard.”
After four days of being carried, Bombur wakes up from his enchanted sleep–right after the rest of the party eats the last crumbs of their food, and while rain taunts them with enough water to make them uncomfortable, but not enough to satisfy their thirst. Bombur has dreamed of wondrous feasts with magical folk all this time, in imagery familiar from many a cautionary old fairytale.
(Keep in mind that in his early notes, Tolkien called his elves “Fairies”. He only changed this later when he realized that the word “fairy” had become too strongly associated with itsy bitsy Victorian flower-fairies with wings, not the human-sized enchanters with whom it is tempting but dangerous to sup.)
An interesting indication that the Elves of the Hobbit were not originally the Elves of The Silmarillion.
3. What happens, in traditional fairytales, to mortals who dine at Fairy Feasts, in the woods or under hills?
Usually something bad happens, like they are doomed to stay there forever, like Persephone in Hades. Also see Pan’s Labyrinth (2006).
4. Folklore often shows others very like the main character taking wrong turns, so to speak, which either delay or halt their progress, to illustrate the pitfalls that the hero should avoid. (The Arthurian legends come to mind, with all of the knights who fell by the wayside in the Quest for the Holy Grail.)
Also John Bunyan’s The Pilgrim’s Progress, which nobody reads anymore, but was required reading for us back in high school. I liked it myself.
Taking Bombur’s experience as a metaphor, what pitfall might it represent to feast in dreams with the fairies, and to not wake up while others carry one--and then to desperately beg to go back to sleep when confronted with the waking world?
On the thirteenth of that month Farmer Cotton found Frodo lying on his bed; he was clutching a white gem that hung on a chain about his neck and he seemed half in a dream.
'It is gone for ever,' he said, 'and now all is dark and empty.'
-The Grey Havens
Has anything like this ever happened to Bilbo?
Not yet.
To anyone you know or know about? (You need not name names, or else give aliases.)
When I'd dream that my dear first wife was still alive, then I’d wake up to a world where she wasn’t.
5. Do you see any significance in Bombur rousing to consciousness right when the waking-world food runs out?
Almost One Ring-like in its maleficence.
Far from being shocked at having lain helpless in a coma for so long, Bombur immediately wants to go back to sleep! The other dwarves, quite appropriately, cry foul and insist that he walk on his own two legs.
6. How great is the yearning to dream of feasts instead of marching on in search of them?
An overwhelming longing to rest and remain at peace by Bilbo's side in Rivendell filled all his heart. At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice.
`I will take the Ring,' he said, `though I do not know the way.'
-The Council of Elrond
Compare or contrast Bombur’s behavior with Bilbo’s, here or elsewhere in the story.
‘Very well, very well, Master Elrond!' said Bilbo suddenly. 'Say no more! It is plain enough what you are pointing at. Bilbo the silly hobbit started this affair, and Bilbo had better finish it, or himself. I was very comfortable here, and getting on with my book. If you want to know, I am just writing an ending for it. I had thought of putting: “and he lived happily ever afterwards to the end of his days”. It is a good ending, and none the worse for having been used before. Now I shall have to alter that: it does not look like coming true; and anyway there will evidently have to be several more chapters, if I live to write them. It is a frightful nuisance. When ought I to start?’
-ibid
7. When, in fandom or outside of it, are we most like Bombur?
When we’re fat and comfortable.
When are we most like Bilbo?
When we’re lean and hungry.
Ultimately Bombur gives up. “I’m just going to lie here and sleep and dream of food, if I can’t get it any other way. I hope I never wake up again.”
8. Is Bombur proposing suicide?
As does Samwise in TTT.
Consciously or unconsciously?
Yes.
Can one unconsciously commit suicide?
I’ve seen it.
Is the act of giving up on progress and hope inherently suicidal?
Isn’t that Tolkien’s message in LOTR?
Can there be degrees in suicide, and if so, might the lesser degrees (dying a little bit, or in part) sometimes be necessary, excusable, or even useful?
And exception is when there is sufficient reason for self-sacrifice, which will turn the sin of suicide into an act of exalted virtue.
Or is it always a bad idea?
Sometimes the act of carrying on seems little more than "a fool's hope".
Then again:
"The message of the cross is foolishness..."
-1 Corinthians 1:18
As it so happens, Bombur’s dream turns out to be prophetic!
9. Why would Bombur have a prophetic dream under these circumstances?
The dream ultimately leads them into greater danger.
10. Any other questions or comments about Bombur’s time asleep?
A great sleepiness came over Frodo; he felt himself sinking fast into a warm and hazy dream. He thought a fire was heating his toes, and out of the shadows on the other side of the hearth he heard Bilbo's voice speaking. “I don't think much of your diary”, he said. “Snowstorms on January the twelfth: there was no need to come back to report that!”
“But I wanted rest and sleep, Bilbo”, Frodo answered with an effort, when he felt himself shaken, and he came back painfully to wakefulness. Boromir had lifted him off the ground out of a nest of snow.
`This will be the death of the halflings, Gandalf,' said Boromir.
-The Ring Goes South
(I also invite pictures of anyone who might remind you of Bombur, or anything else that seems applicable, and that fits tidily on the page.)
...(>'o')> (::) (::) # #
“Oh, boy!” said Bombur. “Chocolate chip cookies and waffles!”
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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GaladrielTX
Tol Eressea
May 14 2009, 5:13pm
Post #12 of 25
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I once knew someone who had a set of emoticons that gave the basic plot of A Tale of Two Cities. It went something like this:
:o) :o( :o) :o( :o) :o( |¯¯\ :o(
~~~~~~~~
The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
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GaladrielTX
Tol Eressea
May 14 2009, 5:29pm
Post #13 of 25
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To sleep, perchance to dream....
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1. How do you feel about the lesson that grumbling about following orders can lead to bad things happening to you?
It can be valid. In cases where the leader has more experience it’s advisable to do what he says unless you have a pretty good reason for thinking him wrong.
Or did a bad thing actually happen to Bombur?
Yes, but not because of the grumbling.
Didn’t this misfortune more fall upon those obliged to carry him while he happily dreamed away?
He was living under an illusion. The dispelling of that illusion will make him feel worse than if it had never happened and tempt him into not wanting to live at all. Plus there was no substance to it so he was missing out on the life that was his.
What, if any, lesson might one read in that?
Don’t do drugs, mmmkay?
Or was it, in fact, unfortunate at all?
Yep, pretty unfortunate.
2. In dreams, falling asleep, especially into an enchanted sleep, can often represent becoming unconscious in waking life–that is, wandering about one’s life following habits rather than really thinking, and not paying attention to much around oneself. I might add that I see Bombur as a kindred spirit to Bilbo (you might agree or not, which might change how you answer.) What lesson, if any, might Bilbo learn from hauling around the heavy, unconscious Bombur while the dwarf dreams endlessly away about feasts far from trouble?
He reminds me of the girl in a whitewater canoeing class I took long ago. The class practiced on a lake, and everyone figured out over the months of practice that she was the worst. So when the time came for the whitewater trip at the end of the semester no one wanted to share a boat with her. She ended up sharing the instructor’s boat, and they capsized within minutes, before we’d even hit any rapids. The lesson? Don’t go on adventures with friends who aren’t physically fit? :o)~
What might Bombur represent about Bilbo, and did it perhaps need to fall asleep?
I see physical similarities and tastes, but I don’t see any indication that Bombur represents Bilbo.
3. What happens, in traditional fairytales, to mortals who dine at Fairy Feasts, in the woods or under hills?
Well, Darkstone just stole the example of the Persephone myth. :o)~
I don’t know if A Midsummer Night’s Dream is a fairytale. In it Bottom asks the fairies to bring him food, but it's unclear whether he eats it or not. If so it doesn’t seem to have any unusual effect.
The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe is modern, not a traditional fairytale, but I can't help remembering Edmund's eating the Turkish delight that the White Witch gives him. He grows greedier and greedier, and eventually it wears away at his loyalty toward his brother and sisters.
Don't become a glutton, mmkay?
4. Folklore often shows others very like the main character taking wrong turns, so to speak, which either delay or halt their progress, to illustrate the pitfalls that the hero should avoid. (The Arthurian legends come to mind, with all of the knights who fell by the wayside in the Quest for the Holy Grail.) Taking Bombur’s experience as a metaphor, what pitfall might it represent to feast in dreams with the fairies, and to not wake up while others carry one--and then to desperately beg to go back to sleep when confronted with the waking world?
Dreaming of the feasting and not waking up while the others carry him isn’t really a pitfall. He didn’t have any choice in the matter. Not seizing the active living of life when it once again comes to him and preferring illusion, though, is a mistake.
Has anything like this ever happened to Bilbo? To anyone you know or know about? (You need not name names, or else give aliases.)
I don’t know about Bilbo, but yes to IRL. I know an old woman who happily lived her life in her husband’s protection, living a sheltered life, avoiding contact with the real world. Now that her husband has died she bemoans the reality of having to deal with the everyday experiences of life that most everyone else handles all the time. She thinks the world should change for her and that she should not have to deal with the mundane concerns of life.
I've also know people who live life in a state of wishful thinking, under the assumption that their wants will be taken care of without effort on their part. When reality sets in they do their desperate best to escape it.
5. Do you see any significance in Bombur rousing to consciousness right when the waking-world food runs out?
It makes everyone’s plight more miserable.
6. How great is the yearning to dream of feasts instead of marching on in search of them?
Bombur sounds pretty tempted, considering he’s willing to give up life to go back to sleep.
Compare or contrast Bombur’s behavior with Bilbo’s, here or elsewhere in the story.
Bilbo often thinks of home but struggles on, regardless. In this reading I should have counted the number of times he does this. It happens a lot.
7. When, in fandom or outside of it, are we most like Bombur? When are we most like Bilbo?
When you say “we” do you mean me? If so I can’t say I’ve ever enjoyed something so much that I wanted to die for it so Bombur is out. Sometimes the thought occurs to me that I could be enjoying myself more, but like Bilbo I see that I must finish the task at hand and try not to give in to wishful thinking.
Ultimately Bombur gives up. “I’m just going to lie here and sleep and dream of food, if I can’t get it any other way. I hope I never wake up again.”
8. Is Bombur proposing suicide?
Yes.
Consciously or unconsciously?
I don’t think Bombur is so unintelligent that he thinks he’ll survive if he goes to sleep and never wakes up.
Can one unconsciously commit suicide?
No. Suicide is the act of deliberately killing oneself. If one does it unintentionally it is an accident.
Is the act of giving up on progress and hope inherently suicidal?
Only metaphorically.
Can there be degrees in suicide?
No, dead is dead.
, and if so, might the lesser degrees (dying a little bit, or in part) sometimes be necessary, excusable, or even useful? Or is it always a bad idea?
Not applicable.
As it so happens, Bombur’s dream turns out to be prophetic!
9. Why would Bombur have a prophetic dream under these circumstances?
That’s how the spell is programmed to work.
10. Any other questions or comments about Bombur’s time asleep?
I loved the comments of others here who suggested he snores. I had never thought of that. I really hope they do that in the movie.
~~~~~~~~
The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
May 14 2009, 6:13pm
Post #14 of 25
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All of those thoughtful answers and brilliant quotes, and my mind is going to linger instead on the cartoon of Bombur going after chocolate chip cookies and waffles! I know, you deserve better...but oh my, that was funny!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
May 14 2009, 6:24pm
Post #15 of 25
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Bilbo probably does snore, and come to think of it, Bombur certainly would. Fat people do--those double-chins settle onto their throats when they sleep, periodically cutting off air, only to take loud breaths to compensate. And losing a lot of weight in a short period wouldn't necessarily help, because now you've got flaps of empty skin around your neck.
(Not that that's the only reason for snoring. I snore like a truck, and did when I was skinny, too, due to allergies.)
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
May 15 2009, 12:12am
Post #16 of 25
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1. How do you feel about the lesson that grumbling about following orders can lead to bad things happening to you? Or did a bad thing actually happen to Bombur? Didn’t this misfortune more fall upon those obliged to carry him while he happily dreamed away? What, if any, lesson might one read in that? Or was it, in fact, unfortunate at all?
Personally, I don't like it. But Tolkien wrote this pre-Hitler, before the world got smacked in the face with just how horrible blindly following orders could be.
2. In dreams, falling asleep, especially into an enchanted sleep, can often represent becoming unconscious in waking life–that is, wandering about one’s life following habits rather than really thinking, and not paying attention to much around oneself. I might add that I see Bombur as a kindred spirit to Bilbo (you might agree or not, which might change how you answer.) What lesson, if any, might Bilbo learn from hauling around the heavy, unconscious Bombur while the dwarf dreams endlessly away about feasts far from trouble? What might Bombur represent about Bilbo, and did it perhaps need to fall asleep?
Can anyone really lead the life of leisure that Bilbo hitherto led, without obliviously being carried on the backs of others? Before this we know that he spent a lot of money on fine food, fine clothing, and fine tobacco. And he had a certain unfriendly manner reserved for those who tried to borrow money from him. After this he became the sort of person who would adopt an orphan, teach a gardener's son to read, and ultimately give up his wealth freely (even the most compelling treasure of all) making sure that the poor were well-provided for.
I see Bombur as Bilbo's self-indulgence. Later we learn that Bombur's self-indulgence eventually paralyzed him, requiring six strong young dwarves to lift him from the bed to the table.
3. What happens, in traditional fairytales, to mortals who dine at Fairy Feasts, in the woods or under hills?
The fairies enchant them and take them prisoner.
4. Folklore often shows others very like the main character taking wrong turns, so to speak, which either delay or halt their progress, to illustrate the pitfalls that the hero should avoid. (The Arthurian legends come to mind, with all of the knights who fell by the wayside in the Quest for the Holy Grail.) Taking Bombur’s experience as a metaphor, what pitfall might it represent to feast in dreams with the fairies, and to not wake up while others carry one--and then to desperately beg to go back to sleep when confronted with the waking world? Has anything like this ever happened to Bilbo? To anyone you know or know about? (You need not name names, or else give aliases.)
A retreat from responsibility might be one interpretation. To dislodge the imagination from its proper function of fantasizing goals into mere wishful thinking without action to follow it up. When we cease to strive towards our dreams, we might not realize just how much of a burden we become to other people. Then the shock of waking up to reality makes us wish that we had never been the wiser!
5. Do you see any significance in Bombur rousing to consciousness right when the waking-world food runs out?
I do. It is the sort of reality check that slaps us all in the face, sooner or later. When the poet William Blake would lose himself in fantasizing about great poems, instead of actually writing them down and marketing them, his wife would patiently wait until the food ran out, then she would set a nice table, with the best china, and bring to the table an empty tureen from which she would spoon imaginary soup into his bowl. That always did the trick, and got him back to work.
6. How great is the yearning to dream of feasts instead of marching on in search of them? Compare or contrast Bombur’s behavior with Bilbo’s, here or elsewhere in the story.
Dreaming of feasts is certainly easier! Who would strive for anything if wishing got us whatever we needed or wanted? It has been Bilbo's misfortune that he really did get everything handed to him on a silver platter. Now he's learning the value of striving.
7. When, in fandom or outside of it, are we most like Bombur? When are we most like Bilbo?
My personal opinion? I am most like Bombur when I read Tolkien's work and wish I had friends like that, wish the world was that noble, wish that I could live in the Shire or Rivendell, etc., feeling disappointed but resigned when the real world didn't correspond to what I found between the covers of the books, taking for granted that that's just the way it is.
I am most like Bilbo when I read Tolkien's work and resolve to be a friend like the ones in the stories, to act as nobly as my heroes, to strive to make the world in general a nobler place, and to make my environment more beautiful and in harmony with nature.
8. Is Bombur proposing suicide? Consciously or unconsciously? Can one unconsciously commit suicide? Is the act of giving up on progress and hope inherently suicidal? Can there be degrees in suicide, and if so, might the lesser degrees (dying a little bit, or in part) sometimes be necessary, excusable, or even useful? Or is it always a bad idea?
Some dispute this, but people commit unconscious suicide all the time. Sometimes it's physical suicide, embracing habits that we know deep down are killing us. Nor do I count unconscious suicide as entirely blameless, for we do have a choice about what we choose to shove away from our consciousness. We hold a responsibility for what we refuse to listen to.
And sometimes it is moral suicide, when we let other people make all of the decisions, when we retreat into passivity and follow blindly. Most of the women in prison are there for being accessories to crime. To not make a moral decision is a decision.
Sometimes it is psychological, when we suppress who we are so as to conform, when we never become who we were meant to be. We can kill our own personality, and let others fill in the void with their ideas of who they'd rather have us be. But when we do that, in my own belief, we deny the Creator His creation, in denying everyone our selves.
People commit mental suicide, too, all the time. We don't want to hear the facts. We refuse the responsibility of thought. We try to find some group or system to belong to that will tell us what to think so as to save us the bother. I just saw on TV the other day a neurologist saying that the frontal lobes can actually atrophy over time from letting other people think for us.
In short, I see it as a form of suicide whenever we refuse to be, in one sense or another.
And yet, we can commit a kind of benign partial suicide. That is, when we let a dysfunctional aspect of ourselves die--but only if we labor to give birth to a new self to replace it. In terms of Bilbo's journey, taking Bombur as an aspect of himself, when Bombur surrenders and says that he won't mind dying, the long, hard night leads Bilbo to a spiritual rebirth.
9. Why would Bombur have a prophetic dream under these circumstances?
Perhaps his imitation of death has placed his unconscious mind outside of the normal limits of space and time? Or perhaps it was just a natural side effect of an elvish spell?
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on May 15 2009, 12:13am)
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 16 2009, 12:39pm
Post #17 of 25
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How about chocolate-chip waffles?
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Darkstone, you constantly impress me with your vast store of knowledge. Who else could come up with a movie with a character whose situation bears a similarity to Bombur's! Including being held in a prison camp dungeon...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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sador
Half-elven
May 17 2009, 6:24am
Post #18 of 25
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That is, if we can believe the Rivendell elves in 'The Last Stage'.
"Don't start grumbling against orders, or something bad will happen to you." - Thorin
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
May 17 2009, 11:23pm
Post #19 of 25
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I forgot all about that!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Modtheow
Lorien
May 18 2009, 1:16am
Post #20 of 25
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9. Why would Bombur have a prophetic dream under these circumstances?
Perhaps his imitation of death has placed his unconscious mind outside of the normal limits of space and time? Or perhaps it was just a natural side effect of an elvish spell? Or a natural side-effect of an elvish spell might be to put the unconscious mind outside the limits of time and space? There are so many instances of dreams and visions in Tolkien's work that take the dreamer/visionary to another time and place, and this looks similar to me. Bombur's dreams seem to be prophetic in that after he wakes up, the company comes upon the same scene of feasting elves that Bombur had seen in his dreams, so he could have been seeing things in a future time and space. Or maybe Bombur was simply seeing what was going on in the forest in the present while he was asleep, scenes that were invisible to the others because the events were taking place in an enchanted space only accessible to Bombur in dreams?
I think that by falling into the stream Bombur trespassed into an enchanted elvish realm. Although Bombur doesn't seem at first to be punished for this trespass, getting lovely dreams and having himself transported instead of having to walk, the price of entering this enchanted otherworld comes with the loss of a good chunk of his memory. That seems a dangerous thing to happen, losing a part of oneself like that. I have to say that for me in this chapter the elves really do seem to belong to a "Perilous Realm" -- there's a strong desire to catch hold of the vision, to be part of their world, and yet there's something dangerous about them too.
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Curious
Half-elven
May 18 2009, 5:12am
Post #21 of 25
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1. How do you feel about the lesson that grumbling about following orders can lead to bad things happening to you? Or did a bad thing actually happen to Bombur? Didn’t this misfortune more fall upon those obliged to carry him while he happily dreamed away? What, if any, lesson might one read in that? Or was it, in fact, unfortunate at all?
In the long run, it was fortunate, since the party could not have made it to Lake-town on the path. As you note, Bombur also considered it fortunate in the short run, since he quite enjoyed his dreams. It's far from clear that following orders is a virtue in The Hobbit, especially when Thorin is giving the orders. However, even if Bombur's foolishness proved fortunate in the long run, it was still foolish, and Bombur is still depicted as a fat, clumsy, grumbling fool, who quite nearly got them all killed.
2. In dreams, falling asleep, especially into an enchanted sleep, can often represent becoming unconscious in waking life–that is, wandering about one’s life following habits rather than really thinking, and not paying attention to much around oneself. I might add that I see Bombur as a kindred spirit to Bilbo (you might agree or not, which might change how you answer.) What lesson, if any, might Bilbo learn from hauling around the heavy, unconscious Bombur while the dwarf dreams endlessly away about feasts far from trouble? What might Bombur represent about Bilbo, and did it perhaps need to fall asleep?
Bilbo has not quite escaped his gluttonous, comfort-loving side. Bilbo may have changed, but his slothful self has been externalized by Tolkien, becoming manifest in the burdensome, comatose body of Bombur, who weights enough for two. Remember that for most of the trip Bilbo has literally and figuratively been the biggest burden. Now Bilbo has become an adventurer, and Bombur takes his place.
3. What happens, in traditional fairytales, to mortals who dine at Fairy Feasts, in the woods or under hills?
They stay there forever or for a very long time.
4. Folklore often shows others very like the main character taking wrong turns, so to speak, which either delay or halt their progress, to illustrate the pitfalls that the hero should avoid. (The Arthurian legends come to mind, with all of the knights who fell by the wayside in the Quest for the Holy Grail.) Taking Bombur’s experience as a metaphor, what pitfall might it represent to feast in dreams with the fairies, and to not wake up while others carry one--and then to desperately beg to go back to sleep when confronted with the waking world? Has anything like this ever happened to Bilbo? To anyone you know or know about? (You need not name names, or else give aliases.)
As I noted above, Bombur now externalizes what Bilbo used to be -- a burden on the group.
5. Do you see any significance in Bombur rousing to consciousness right when the waking-world food runs out?
The elvish trap won't work unless Bombur wakes up.
6. How great is the yearning to dream of feasts instead of marching on in search of them?
There's something to be said for dream feasts, as there is something to be said for fantasy stories in general. At best, they represent an internal asperation, and may even be realized someday.
Compare or contrast Bombur’s behavior with Bilbo’s, here or elsewhere in the story.
As noted above, Bilbo used to be the party member most likely to fall into a faint and be carried by Dori or even Bombur.
7. When, in fandom or outside of it, are we most like Bombur?
When we don't want to change.
When are we most like Bilbo?
When we reluctantly accept change.
Ultimately Bombur gives up. “I’m just going to lie here and sleep and dream of food, if I can’t get it any other way. I hope I never wake up again.”
8. Is Bombur proposing suicide? Consciously or unconsciously? Can one unconsciously commit suicide? Is the act of giving up on progress and hope inherently suicidal? Can there be degrees in suicide, and if so, might the lesser degrees (dying a little bit, or in part) sometimes be necessary, excusable, or even useful? Or is it always a bad idea?
Suicide is a particular kind of giving up, one which allows for no do-overs. Bombur is going on a hunger strike, which is a bit less drastic.
As it so happens, Bombur’s dream turns out to be prophetic!
9. Why would Bombur have a prophetic dream under these circumstances?
It's all part of the Elvish trap. Make the intruders dream of feasts, then hold such feasts, and accuse the intruders of trespass when they seek to intrude on the feasts. This is how the Elves defend their realm.
10. Any other questions or comments about Bombur’s time asleep?
Not at this time.
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
May 18 2009, 4:06pm
Post #22 of 25
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Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
May 18 2009, 4:46pm
Post #23 of 25
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Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Half-elven
May 18 2009, 4:48pm
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Why doesn't Bombur die of thirst?
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It's unlikely enough that the dwarves and Bilbo apparently carry days or even weeks worth of water on their backs, but once Bombur goes to sleep for four days, why doesn't he die of thirst, or at least suffer from it? There's no mention of feeding tubes or other methods of giving water to people in comas. When Bombur wakes, he isn't even thirsty, just hungry. Tolkien glosses over the issue of thirst in Mirkwood, focusing instead on food and starvation. Perhaps that's because he didn't have a good explanation in mind, and preferred to ignore the issue.
Of course, it's not that uncommon to gloss over such matters in fairy tales -- look at Sleeping Beauty, for example, or Snow White. One could just call it magic.
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
May 18 2009, 5:11pm
Post #25 of 25
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Bombur was entranced. Every year Sundancers, in a state of trance, go for four days without water, food, or sleep, while bleeding and dancing under the hot sun. I have never heard of anybody dying of this. The same conditions would kill someone not in an altered state. The power of the mind or spirit defies explanation.
Nevertheless, Tolkien does seem unclear on the concept of just how fast a person can die of thirst. I could believe Sam giving Frodo most of the water and all of the food, but not the other way around, as Tolkien put it. Even as a child (raised in the dry southwest) I read that and thought, "What the heck?"
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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