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Elven
Valinor
May 6 2009, 3:57pm
Post #1 of 19
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Queer Lodgings - Part 3
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Hi tornsibs - off we go! ... Gandalf and Bilbo are on their way to meet Beorn for the first time. The Dwarves are in wait at the gate before they show themselves. Beorns horses tell him of the visitors approach, and as Gandalf and Mr Baggins reach the courtyard they see Beorn. Standing near was a huge man with a thick black beard and hair, and great bare arms and legs with knotted muscles. He was clothed in a tunic of wool down to his knees, and was leaning on a large axe. The horses were standing by him with their noses at his shoulder. So how tall is Beorn? Considering a horse can nuzzle his shoulder – what height do you think he is realistically? He was towering tall above Gandalf, and Bilbo could have trotted through his legs. Some illustrator have depicted him as larger than large – certainly too tall for a horse to reach his shoulder – Which illustration do you think resembles Beorn the most accurately? Its introduction time and Gandalf introduces first Mr Baggins, and then himself as a Wizard, but also mentions his ‘good cousin Radagast who lives near the Southern Borders of Mirkwood’. Do you think Gandalf is being a bit sly here – like a travelling sales man – like the trickster? Is Gandalf unsure how this meeting will go, or do you think he is more confident than he lets on? So far so good – Beorn asks Gandalf what he wants, and it is time for Gandalf to play out his plan and introduce the Dwarves. Within an instant Gandalf has mentioned lost luggage, and being lost, needing help, advice, having a bad time, Goblins, a surprise attack, and that all this is a very long tale. Beorn invites them to come inside and tell him all about it. It is here we get a glimpse of Beorns abode. The Annotated Hobbit says that Beorns Hall is a typical Germanic Hall – oblong, timber, with pillars and rafters. Doors were at each end. A hearth fire would burn in the middle and smoke would escape from the shutters in the roof, which also provided light in the day. The raised floor in the side aisles served as a sitting place during the day and at night a place for beds. They passed through the hall and sat on the veranda. So when the Dwarves entered, how did they know where to find Gandalf? And here’s how the Dwarves were introduced: I was coming over the mountain with a friend or two ... enter Thorin and Dori. Beorn knew of Thorin’s name and lineage (son of Thrain, son of Thror)... Even if he wasn’t was not overly fond of Dwarves. So, what’s Beorn’s excuse for not being overly fond of dwarves? “... we took refuge in a cave, the hobbit and I and several of our companions ... enter Nori and Ori Beorn calls them Jack-in-the-boxes. He uses the expression again as more dwarves arrive later. Jack-in-the-boxes: These are commonly referred to as children’s toys. Did Tolkien use this expression out of context here? “... Goblins came out and grabbed the hobbit and the dwarves and our troop of ponies” ... enter Balin and Dwalin. Beorn finally cracks a smile, and things look as if all is going well. He called the comic two – ‘my merry men’. Did you find this a relief – that Gandalf had achieved in humouring Beorn to get on his right side? Does merry me sound a big Sherwood Forest to you? “... what can a dozen do against so many?” ... enter Fili and Kili. Beorn is eager to get on with the story and seems to brush these two off. “ ... we counted ourselves and found that there was only fourteen of us left!” ... enter Oin and Gloin. We find out at this point, even though Beorn sounds gruff, he is actually enjoying the tale. “Fifteen birds in five fir trees” ... enter Bifur and Bofur ... and Bombur ...puffing up behind. Once more Tolkien mentions of Bombur – ‘He was fat, and also angry at being left till last’. The ‘size’ question has been asked a few times ... chime in with any more thoughts if you like. Is anyone taking count? But Beorn now had 15 strangers on is porch! Gandalf has succeeded in keeping Beorn’s interest high enabling the Dwarves to be welcomed instead of sent running. The Annotated Hobbit mentions that this is the reverse ploy that Gandalf worked on Bilbo when the Dwarves arrived to Bilbos house – I didn’t totally agree with this – what do you think – is it a reverse tactic Gandalf has used? How do you view Gandalfs approach? But after all this – they were invited by Beorn to have something to eat – for such a good tale! Do you think the purpose of the tale Gandalf told to Beorn was also told by Tolkien here to recount the past events up to this point to the reader/listener? Do you now have a better understanding of Beorn, or does his character still feel distant to you – is he still a cautious character. Beorn did not know if he could trust the tale, but has Beorn gained the readers trust? Thanks everybody Cheers Elven x
Swishtail. Tolkien was a Capricorn!! Russell Crowe for Beorn!! Avatar: Liberace - The other Lord of the Rings. Quote of The Week: The thing is I always write in the morning, and I know that if I go to the Net I won’t write ... you can start in the most scholarly website and end up at Paris Hilton dot com .. GdT
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Larewen
Lorien
May 6 2009, 4:10pm
Post #2 of 19
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One of my favorite parts of the story
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I love the way Gandalf got Beorn hooked on the story so he could get all the dwarves in there without a temper tantrum from him. Such a sly wizard. Gandalf had to have known that Beorn likes a good tale. I'm not sure if Gandalf knew how things would turn out. It would depend on the dwarves behavior. Jack in the box: They pop up unexpectedly. How tall is Beorn? I guess a head taller than a horse. How tall were the horses?
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GaladrielTX
Tol Eressea
May 6 2009, 5:51pm
Post #3 of 19
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Is Gandalf unsure how this meeting will go, or do you think he is more confident than he lets on? I’m sure he knows Beorn isn’t evil, but he is quick-tempered so Gandalf is being careful. So when the Dwarves entered, how did they know where to find Gandalf? I wondered the same thing during this reading. I imagine they went around the house toward the voices they heard instead of through it. And here’s how the Dwarves were introduced:…. How do you view Gandalfs approach? I’m impressed with the way Gandalf times the Dwarves’ entrance to points in the story in which he mentions their number. Do you think the purpose of the tale Gandalf told to Beorn was also told by Tolkien here to recount the past events up to this point to the reader/listener? It does serve that purpose, along with being a credible way to introduce the Dwarves to Beorn and also a reprise of how he introduced them to Bilbo. Kids like this kind of thing, I think. "Do it again!" I recently read Arthur Ransome’s Swallows and Amazons and was struck by the frequency with which he reminds us of what has happened so far.
~~~~~~~~ The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
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Beren IV
Gondor
May 6 2009, 6:48pm
Post #4 of 19
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Gandalf knows that Beorn is fierce, proud, and short-tempered, but basically good. He deserves respect, especially since Gandalf is going to ask a favor (a rather big favor actually) of him.
The paleobotanist is back!
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Darkstone
Immortal
May 6 2009, 7:01pm
Post #5 of 19
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Standing near was a huge man with a thick black beard and hair, and great bare arms and legs with knotted muscles. He was clothed in a tunic of wool down to his knees, and was leaning on a large axe. The horses were standing by him with their noses at his shoulder. So how tall is Beorn? Twenty-one dollars and fifteen cents! Considering a horse can nuzzle his shoulder – what height do you think he is realistically? Horses nuzzle my shoulder all the time and I’m only 5’ 6”. He was towering tall above Gandalf, and Bilbo could have trotted through his legs. Some illustrator have depicted him as larger than large – certainly too tall for a horse to reach his shoulder – Which illustration do you think resembles Beorn the most accurately? The middle one. Its introduction time and Gandalf introduces first Mr Baggins, and then himself as a Wizard, but also mentions his ‘good cousin Radagast who lives near the Southern Borders of Mirkwood’. Do you think Gandalf is being a bit sly here – like a travelling sales man – like the trickster? He’s name-dropping, like Beowulf with the coast guard, or Aragorn with Eomer. Is Gandalf unsure how this meeting will go, or do you think he is more confident than he lets on? I think he is confident in his abilities, which is key to a successful salesman. Once you’re afraid you won’t make the sale you’ve already lost it. It is here we get a glimpse of Beorns abode. The Annotated Hobbit says that Beorns Hall is a typical Germanic Hall – oblong, timber, with pillars and rafters. Doors were at each end. A hearth fire would burn in the middle and smoke would escape from the shutters in the roof, which also provided light in the day. The raised floor in the side aisles served as a sitting place during the day and at night a place for beds. Similarly, Beowulf and his fifteen men went to the meduseld (meadhall) of heorot. Conicidence? I think not! They passed through the hall and sat on the veranda. The paved road guided the men. Their war-coats shone, the hard locks ringing as they came toward the hall. The sea-weary ones set their broad, strong shields against the building's wall, then sat down on benches, their armor resounding. -Beowulf, translation by Dr. David Breeden So when the Dwarves entered, how did they know where to find Gandalf? One room. Beorn knew of Thorin’s name and lineage (son of Thrain, son of Thror)... Even if he wasn’t was not overly fond of Dwarves. So, what’s Beorn’s excuse for not being overly fond of dwarves? It’s because of the Dwarves delving too greedily and too deep that they were run out of the Misty Mountains and left accommodations (including around the High Pass of Imladris) for the goblins to move into. That is, the goblins are there blocking Beorn’s return because of the Dwarves. Beorn calls them Jack-in-the-boxes. He uses the expression again as more dwarves arrive later. Jack-in-the-boxes: These are commonly referred to as children’s toys. Did Tolkien use this expression out of context here? It’s probably less out of context than the original “devil in a boot”. Beorn finally cracks a smile, and things look as if all is going well. He called the comic two – ‘my merry men’. Did you find this a relief – that Gandalf had achieved in humouring Beorn to get on his right side? I thought it was a sign Beorn was a good sort. Anyone willing to laugh at himself when he realizes he’s being pranked is okay in my book. Does merry men sound a big Sherwood Forest to you? I took it more as a reference to Robert Lewis Stevenson’s short story The Merry Men (1882). The “Merry Men” in that story were violently bobbing waves, and so would resemble the violently bobbing Balin and Dwalin: “The big man was frowning at first, but they did their very best to be frightfully polite, and kept on nodding and bending and bowing and waving their hoods before their knees (in proper dwarf-fashion), till he stopped frowning and burst into a chuckling laugh; they looked so comical.” We find out at this point, even though Beorn sounds gruff, he is actually enjoying the tale. Again, a sign of good character. “Fifteen birds in five fir trees” ... enter Bifur and Bofur ... and Bombur ...puffing up behind. Once more Tolkien mentions of Bombur – ‘He was fat, and also angry at being left till last’. The ‘size’ question has been asked a few times ... chime in with any more thoughts if you like. Is anyone taking count? ”He refused to wait five minutes, and followed immediately after the other two.” I can understand even brave Bombur being reluctant to being left all by himself with wargs, goblins, and a werebear in the vicinity. The Annotated Hobbit mentions that this is the reverse ploy that Gandalf worked on Bilbo when the Dwarves arrived to Bilbos house – I didn’t totally agree with this – what do you think – is it a reverse tactic Gandalf has used? Actually I was thinking of the disaster of how the Dwarves similarly went up one by one to see what was happening in the Trollshaws and wound up getting easily caught by Bert, Tom, and William. They either trust Gandalf implicitly, or don’t learn from their mistakes. How do you view Gandalfs approach? He works a lot like The One Ring. He finds someone’s weakness and uses it to hook them like a fish. Like with Bilbo back at Bag End: “It seems a great big hole to me,” squeaked Bilbo (who had no experience of dragons and only of hobbit-holes) He was getting excited and interested again, so that he forgot to keep his mouth shut. He loved maps, and in his hall there hung a large one of the Country Round with all his favourite walks marked on it in red ink. But after all this – they were invited by Beorn to have something to eat – for such a good tale! Even if it wasn’t true. (But Beorn is going to go check it out later. "Trust, but verify.") Do you think the purpose of the tale Gandalf told to Beorn was also told by Tolkien here to recount the past events up to this point to the reader/listener? Possible. Do you now have a better understanding of Beorn, or does his character still feel distant to you – is he still a cautious character. He’s still a bit suspicious. Beorn did not know if he could trust the tale, but has Beorn gained the readers trust? Yes. Jerks, creeps, internet trolls, and bad guys in general never seem to have the ability to laugh at themselves. It’s a dead giveaway.
****************************************** The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Curious
Half-elven
May 6 2009, 7:04pm
Post #6 of 19
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So how tall is Beorn? Since his tunic comes down to his knees, and Bilbo can walk under the tunic without ducking, I think Beorn must be at least ten feet tall. (By the way, does Beorn wear anything under that tunic? Does Bilbo have to avert his eyes?) You are correct that this would make it difficult for even a large horse (by Primary World standards) to nuzzle his shoulder. That may be a discrepancy in the text, which can be rationalized, but perhaps not perfectly. By the way, why didn't the horses tell Beorn the number of guests they saw? I don't have a good answer, except that Tolkien is inconsistent about what animals can or cannot communicate. Which illustration do you think resembles Beorn the most accurately? This one: Do you think Gandalf is being a bit sly here – like a travelling sales man – like the trickster? Yes. Is Gandalf unsure how this meeting will go, or do you think he is more confident than he lets on? Yes. He's both unsure and more confident than he let on to the dwarves. He's an accomplished Trickster, improvising. So when the Dwarves entered, how did they know where to find Gandalf? The dwarves went around the house, guided first by Gandalf's whistle, and then by the dwarves ahead of them. So, what’s Beorn’s excuse for not being overly fond of dwarves? Remember that some dwarves work with goblins. Beorn calls them Jack-in-the-boxes. He uses the expression again as more dwarves arrive later. Jack-in-the-boxes: These are commonly referred to as children’s toys. Did Tolkien use this expression out of context here? Yes, because Beorn's dwelling looks like an Anglo-Saxon hall, where we would be unlikely to find a jack-in-the-box. The jack-in-the-box is an old toy, but not Anglo-Saxon old. And it only became common in the industrial age. But this is consistent with the contemporary references sprinkled throughout The Hobbit. Beorn finally cracks a smile, and things look as if all is going well. He called the comic two – ‘my merry men’. Did you find this a relief – that Gandalf had achieved in humouring Beorn to get on his right side? I never doubted that he would. On the other hand, it's not clear to me that Beorn is a safe host, or that his mood won't change. Does merry me[n] sound a big Sherwood Forest to you? It didn't occur to me, but since you mentioned it I did some Googling and discovered that Robin Hood's followers were called merry men not because they were a happy bunch, but because they were Robin Hood's followers. I guess merry-men was the equivalent of today's posse or entourage. Tolkien was undoubtedly aware of this etymology, so perhaps Beorn is calling Balin and Dwalin merry men because they are followers of Thorin and Gandalf, and not just because their comical appearance makes Beorn merry. Balin and Dwalin themselves do not act merry -- they aren't laughing, Beorn is. (This makes me wonder about Merry Brandybuck as well, who didn't strike me as particularly jovial compared to Pippin and Sam. Oh, I know it is short for Meriadoc, but I can't help feeling Tolkien had a double meaning in mind. Is Merry a natural-born follower? He seemingly leads the conspiracy to find out about the Ring, but does he really, or was Sam the secret ringleader? Merry tries to lead the party through the Old Forest, but it turns into a disaster. Merry mostly follows up until he and Pippin are captured by orcs, but even then, because of his head wound, he ends up following Pippin's lead in the escape. When Gandalf takes Pippin to Gondor, Merry swears allegiance to Thoeden, then is afraid that everyone will leave him behind, until Dernhelm picks him up as a follower. Merry is the leader of the Scouring, though. But that is at the end of his character arc. I'm not sure if his name means he is a follower -- but it doesn't mean he is more jovial than the other hobbits, either. Maybe it is just short for Meriadoc.) Once more Tolkien mentions of Bombur – ‘He was fat, and also angry at being left till last’. The ‘size’ question has been asked a few times ... chime in with any more thoughts if you like. Bombur is not happy to be left for last. And Tolkien reminds us once again that Bombur is fat before the events in Mirkwood. Is anyone taking count? Of references to Bombur being fat? Once in the first chapter and twice in this chapter, I believe. Gandalf has succeeded in keeping Beorn’s interest high enabling the Dwarves to be welcomed instead of sent running. The Annotated Hobbit mentions that this is the reverse ploy that Gandalf worked on Bilbo when the Dwarves arrived to Bilbos house – I didn’t totally agree with this – what do you think – is it a reverse tactic Gandalf has used? How do you view Gandalfs approach? It's the reverse tactic in that Gandalf goes to Bilbo's house last, and to Beorn's first. But in other ways it is exactly the same tactic. As I noted in a previous thread, the dwarves also unsuccessfully tried this tactic with the trolls, not realizing they were trolls. It's important to know the person you are trying to trick, and Gandalf does his homework on Bilbo and Beorn, tailoring his trick accordingly. So does Bilbo learn from this that he needs to find out as much as possible about the Spiders, Elves, Dragon, and Dwarves before he tricks each of them in turn? I think perhaps he does. Certainly he improves upon his performance with the trolls. The ring helps too, of course, but he needs courage, luck, and wits. Do you think the purpose of the tale Gandalf told to Beorn was also told by Tolkien here to recount the past events up to this point to the reader/listener? No. In fact, Gandalf skips over most of the tale. We are told that he tells Beorn the whole tale, but the timing doesn't add up -- the first ten members of the party arrive before Gandalf gets to killing the Great Goblin and freeing the dwarves. That takes about twenty minutes just for the first encounter and Gandalf folliwing the prisoners. At that point we abandon the real-time narration, and are asked to believe that Gandalf tells the rest of the tale up to just before their rescue by the Eagles in about ten minutes, which seems unlikely. The purpose of the tale is to show Gandalf's cleverness. It reminds me of Scheherazade. Do you now have a better understanding of Beorn, or does his character still feel distant to you – is he still a cautious character. This section of the story doesn't tell me much about Beorn, no. The previous section, where Gandalf gave us a detailed description, told me much more. Beorn did not know if he could trust the tale, but has Beorn gained the readers trust? Not entirely, no. In The Hobbit, there's always a question of whether Gandalf is a good guide or not, and this is another example.
(This post was edited by Curious on May 6 2009, 7:08pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
May 6 2009, 7:19pm
Post #7 of 19
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A "merryman" is a jester, like Jack Point in Gilbert and Sullivan's "The Yeomen of the Guard, or The Merryman and His Maid". Which nicely fits the reference to a Jack in the Box. BTW, the comic opera features the saddest song I have ever heard.
****************************************** The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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One Ringer
Tol Eressea
May 6 2009, 10:31pm
Post #9 of 19
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Beorn is very straight-forward to me
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He's overgrown, with the ability to shapeshift and speak many tongues. Sure, that's not all there is to him, but it's still quite simple enough for a kid's story. He reminds me of Tom Bombadil, personally. There's a lot that I already know about him, but plenty left to discover I'm sure.
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sador
Half-elven
May 7 2009, 10:05am
Post #10 of 19
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So how tall is Beorn? Aren't there different sizes of horses? Anyway, he would be very tall for a man - but still should be seen as a man (at least possibly). So more than eight feet tall would definitely be wrong. Which illustration do you think resembles Beorn the most accurately? I don't know much of illustrations. Do you think Gandalf is being a bit sly here – like a travelling sales man – like the trickster? Of course - he's selling buttons at the door! Is Gandalf unsure how this meeting will go, or do you think he is more confident than he lets on? He might be more confident, but tries to impress the dwarves (and hobbit!) into respectful silence. So when the Dwarves entered, how did they know where to find Gandalf? It might have been visible from the lane, or the horses might have guided them, or else dwarves can locate the source of a whistle as well as bats (makes sense, if they live underground!). Or else another case of magic. So, what’s Beorn’s excuse for not being overly fond of dwarves? I'm not sure I understand your question. If he hadn't known of dwarves, I would see what you mean - but he does! More specific? Perhaps he has read Curious and Darkstone's posts about them. Or, which is more likely, he might have sometime in the past had commercial transactions with dwarves. And the result left him hardly fond of them. Can you blame him? Did Tolkien use this expression out of context here? Well, the context is a children's book - so it is perfectly correct here! Did you find this a relief – that Gandalf had achieved in humouring Beorn to get on his right side? Another "first impression" question! Probably I did. Does merry me sound a big Sherwood Forest to you? You surely mean "merry men". Never thought if it before - but you know, it sounds quite right; does that make Bombur Little John? The ‘size’ question has been asked a few times ... chime in with any more thoughts if you like. Is anyone taking count? The Annotated Hobbit mentions that this is the reverse ploy that Gandalf worked on Bilbo when the Dwarves arrived to Bilbos house – I didn’t totally agree with this – what do you think – is it a reverse tactic Gandalf has used? How do you view Gandalfs approach? We've discussed these questions in the previous thread. Do you think the purpose of the tale Gandalf told to Beorn was also told by Tolkien here to recount the past events up to this point to the reader/listener? No, he didn't tell us anything new. I might say Tolkien intended to show how the same story would be told differently by different people, but I usually don't like this kind of oversophisticated theories. I think by telling us the story again, he keeps up the suspense as to how Beorn will react, and reminds us what a wonderful story we are reading! Do you now have a better understanding of Beorn, or does his character still feel distant to you – is he still a cautious character. Beorn did not know if he could trust the tale, but has Beorn gained the readers trust? Why should he trust the tale? After all, he lives in the Wild! As far as I remember, I did trust Beorn by now, which is why I was shocked by Bilbo's nightmares later in the chapter; but it could be that most readers don't yet, and that they will identify with Bilbo - in a few weeks' time, I'll see how my son reacts.
"It was a good story, that of yours, but I like it still better now I am sure it is true." - Beorn
(This post was edited by sador on May 7 2009, 10:06am)
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Twit
Lorien
May 7 2009, 10:15am
Post #11 of 19
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Good morning! It's very sunny here today so I'm in the garden, no clover at the moment but loads of daisies. So how tall is Beorn? If his shoulders are head height to a horse, then he is pretty tall, taller than an average man certainly. Do you think Gandalf is being a bit sly here – like a travelling sales man – like the trickster? Is Gandalf unsure how this meeting will go, or do you think he is more confident than he lets on? I think he has been advised to act in this way, and is probably reasonably confident that his plan will work, but still... So, what’s Beorn’s excuse for not being overly fond of dwarves? To be honest no-one seems to like the Dwarves much - they keep themselvese seperate, they are materialistic and are quite selfish with regards to their treasures. Did Tolkien use this expression out of context here? No, the dwarves do keep popping up, it also strikes a certain chord with children, they understand how the Dwarves suddenly appearing must seem to Beorn. Did you find this a relief – that Gandalf had achieved in humouring Beorn to get on his right side? To be honest I thought Beorn was humouring Gandalf alot, letting him tell his story and knowing he was being misled with regards to the actual number of travellers. Do you think the purpose of the tale Gandalf told to Beorn was also told by Tolkien here to recount the past events up to this point to the reader/listener? It helps to sum up what has just happened Do you now have a better understanding of Beorn, or does his character still feel distant to you – is he still a cautious character. Beorn did not know if he could trust the tale, but has Beorn gained the readers trust? I liked Beorn straight away, he seems to have a dry sense of humour, and actually reminds me of a Farmer from the farm next door when I was young, big, loud and scary until you got to know him and then you called him uncle, he was that nice.
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sador
Half-elven
May 7 2009, 12:06pm
Post #12 of 19
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Is Merry a natural-born follower? He seemingly leads the conspiracy to find out about the Ring, but does he really, or was Sam the secret ringleader? Yes, he does. To begin with, he found about about the Ring before Bilbo ever left the Shire. And Merry was also the one to organise ponies, supplies and a red herring for the Black Riders (Fatty Bolger). Note that Butterbur pays Merry as a compensation for his ponies, and that it is Merry who seems possessed by the spirit of the last prince of Cardolan. Also that he doesn't go foolishly to the Common Room in Bree - keeping his independence from Frodo's foolishness. Merry tries to lead the party through the Old Forest, but it turns into a disaster. Aragorn led the hobbits to Weathertop, and Gandalf led the Company to Moria. Merry is in good company - save that his short cut led only to a near-disaster, while the other two had a proper one! Merry mostly follows up until he and Pippin are captured by orcs, but even then, because of his head wound, he ends up following Pippin's lead in the escape. Pippin first guesses the hairy villain's game - but that is a counterpart to Merry being the only one on the right track at the walls of Moria. And it is Merry who acts upon Pippin's guess - trying to use it to drive a bargain with Grishnakh. When Gandalf takes Pippin to Gondor, Merry swears allegiance to Thoeden, then is afraid that everyone will leave him behind, until Dernhelm picks him up as a follower. Yes, Merry is more than a bit insecure (see answer no.1). Merry is the leader of the Scouring, though. But that is at the end of his character arc. I'm not sure if his name means he is a follower -- but it doesn't mean he is more jovial than the other hobbits, either. Maybe it is just short for Meriadoc. Well, the note at the end of appendix F says Merry's original name was kalimac, shortened to kali, which means "joyful". I understand that as meaning Tolkien chose the name Merry to mean 'jovial', and then built it up to something Welsh-sounding.
"It was a good story, that of yours, but I like it still better now I am sure it is true." - Beorn
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Curious
Half-elven
May 7 2009, 12:17pm
Post #13 of 19
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Good point about the translation!
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But I still don't think Merry is the most jovial of the hobbits. Indeed, without Pippin he becomes quite morose.
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Twit
Lorien
May 7 2009, 12:55pm
Post #14 of 19
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Does merry me sound a big Sherwood Forest to you? Merry can also mean slightly drunk. Perhaps by calling Merry Merry, he was being slightly ironic. A bit like calling Little John Little John instead of John Little. Perhaps Bombur is like Friar Tuck!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
May 7 2009, 4:49pm
Post #15 of 19
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That matches well with Merry's name among the Rohirrim being Holdwine. Yes, I know that in Rohirric that's pronounced "Holdwinney" or something like that, and refers to his steadfastness at Eowyn's side, but you can just bet that Tolkien knew perfectly well how it would appear to the reader's eye. And, of course, Merry's last name is Brandybuck. Not that Tolkien ever shows Merry as a drunkard. (Indeed, he was the only one that we are absolutely certain was sober on that fateful night in Bree. He had only one beer with his supper. Frodo, by contrast, is documented to have had at least three. No wonder we find our Ringbearer dancing on the table and falling off!) It's more sort of a running joke at Merry's expense. I think you may be onto something about the irony, as Merry seems to be the soberest hobbit of the lot.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on May 7 2009, 4:51pm)
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GaladrielTX
Tol Eressea
May 7 2009, 5:34pm
Post #16 of 19
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Which illustration do you think resembles Beorn the most accurately? For better or worse, this one made a lasting impression: http://www.lordotrings.com/hildebrandt/hilde37.asp I imagine the horses are pretty big, like Clydesdales.
~~~~~~~~ The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
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Curious
Half-elven
May 7 2009, 5:38pm
Post #17 of 19
(1065 views)
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And if Bilbo were in that picture, he might have to avert his eyes.
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Larewen
Lorien
May 8 2009, 12:48am
Post #18 of 19
(1007 views)
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Maybe it's just bunched up.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 10 2009, 2:30am
Post #19 of 19
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You make a most intriguing observation! He does have some Bombadil-like characteristics, doesn't he: living in his own land, of which he is master; communing with non-human creatures; entertaining his guests with tales of the lands around him; serving food similar to Tom and Goldberry's ("yellow cream and honeycomb, and white bread, and butter; milk, cheese, and green herbs and ripe berries gathered"); and, most importantly, a stranger who became a friend to help them in their need. And - his origins are enigmatic!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I desired dragons with a profound desire" "It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?" -Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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