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The One Ring Forums: Off Topic: Off Topic:
"Lost" (spoilers) OH MY!!!

Dreamdeer
Valinor


Apr 30 2009, 5:42pm

Post #1 of 18 (301 views)
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"Lost" (spoilers) OH MY!!! Can't Post

Ohhh, poor Daniel! His mother is worse than Angela Petrelli on "Heroes"! She just raised him for the slaughter, to come up with one big discovery and die transmitting it--even knowing that his death would come accidentally from her own hands! Manipulative she-warg! And why on earth couldn't he enjoy his piano-playing as well as study physics? Music is an art that stimulates the scientific mind even as it soothes the weary scholar.

Granted, there might be mitigating circumstances, but they have got to be extreme. She seemed to indicate that in her conversation with Widmore. (Which begs the question: how can she simultaneously work with Charles Widmore and Benjamin Linus?) Do they even have the same agenda? Whatever the case, she was right to slap his face if he equates estrangement from his daughter with execution of their son.

Now, let me get this straight. Her name is Eloise Hawking, her son's name is Daniel Faraday, and his father is Charles Widmore. She must have led a complicated life. I see several possibilities:
  1. She married Widmore, divorced him while pregnant, married Faraday, divorced again, married someone named Hawking, who for some reason is also out of the picture (maybe.)
  2. Her maiden name is Faraday, Widmore dallied with her without owning Daniel, she then married Hawking (and where is he now?)
  3. Her maiden name is Hawking and she held onto it her whole life. She dallied with Widmore but married Faraday, who adopted her son. Again, where is he now?
  4. She has led a sufficiently checkered life to require periodic changes of alias, and has married no one. "Hawking" would appeal to a physicist.
  5. Her maiden name is Hawking and she never married. Her son legally changed his own name, for reasons as yet unknown. "Faraday" would appeal to a physicist.

As for changing the future, I can see a whole lot of complications with that.

Those who would be in favor of sending the plane straight to LA like it intended:
  1. Jack. He thinks that he wouldn't have descended into drunken misery "If only..." He has not faced up to the fact that he is genetically and by upbringing predisposed to substance abuse, nor that he creates his own relationship problems even without drinking or drugging, and he needs a far more profound, internal solution. But no, he wants to "fix" things, and fancies that preventing that crash will do the trick.
  2. Sayyid. He would gladly erase the years that erased his hope of ever being anything except a killer and a torturer, and take his chances with another timeline. Hopefully one where he and Nadia are so unimportant that they can find each other and live happily ever after.
  3. Sun and Jin. They want to get back together. They can't do that while in separate times. Of course, they're gambling that somehow they will gain in LA all of the insights that life on the island forced them to develop, before they split up in America, and somehow wriggle out from under Sun's father's thumb, but at least they'd have a chance.
  4. Desmond. If the "incident" never happens, he doesn't have to spend years pushing a button when he could be impressing Penny with his race around the world.
  5. Penny. More time with Desmond.
  6. Aaron. He gets a happy childhood with a single adoptive family, known to him from birth, instead of being bounced around between three mother figures at an early and vulnerable age.

Those most logically opposed:
  1. Kate. She was on her way to her execution when the plane crashed. The only way her trial came out favorably in the current timeline was because she returned as a glamorous and valiant survivor. Why on earth would she want to rewrite that whole scenario?
  2. Sawyer. His life stank, and would continue to stink if the plane reaches LA. In the plane-crash timeline, he achieves his vengeance and then goes on to lead a decent life capable of relationships. Without his island experiences, he might never get a chance to straighten out his life.
  3. Locke. He might be in a different time-zone, but he still factors into the game in his own tricksy way. Given the choice between being a sneered-at cripple in a dreary box company office, or being the hale and revered leader of a cult that will obey his every whim, which do you think he'd choose?

Ambiguous:
  1. Hurley. He does what the ghosts tell him to do. What do they want? His happiest scenario would have been to stay on as the Dharma Initiative's jolly chef, at least until Benjamin grows up and gasses everybody, but that's no longer possible. If the plane lands in LA, he goes back to leading a rich but cursed life. If the plane crashes, he continues as a castaway. Not the best choices, dude!
  2. Miles. He just goes with the flow. On the other hand, if the plane lands in LA, he never finds his father; I'm not sure if that's reason enough for him to balk at changing time.
  3. Juliette. Keeping the timeline means losing all chance of reuniting with her sister, but changing the timeline means losing all chance of meeting and building a life with Sawyer.
  4. Walt. The plane reaching LA would give him a chance at a normal relationship with his father, but he might never get a chance at exploring his own strange talents. Which matters more to him?

Am I forgetting anyone?

Eloise can't have sacrificed her son just to change the timelines for a few people who might or might not benefit. Nor, apparently, would she care two hoots whether Widmore gets what he wants. Something greater has to be at stake, here. What does she want?

Charles Widmore apparently wants to get back to the Island at any cost, even though he is fabulously wealthy in the regular world. What is there for him that he cannot buy anywhere else in the world? How will changing the future help him? And why does he believe that if the Oceanic 6 don't get back to the Island "The wrong side will win"?

Benjamin Linus wants whatever the smoke monster wants, especially when it shows up as his late daughter. What does it want? How can Benjamin returning to the Island fit into Eloise's plans even when it doesn't fit in with Widmore's plans?

Apparently Richard Alpert and the Others are on the same page on that. Will Benjamin meekly follow the example of Richard Alpert and follow whatever leader the smoke monster appoints over him? Or will he rebel and risk the wrath of his deity?

Who were the Dharma Initiative? Are any of them still around? Do they have a role yet to play?

Walt is too interesting to simply step in and out of the picture. What role does he have yet to play?

Caesar obviously knew something before he died. Whose side was he on?

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


Zmulady
Rohan


Apr 30 2009, 6:43pm

Post #2 of 18 (182 views)
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Awesome breakdown Dreamdeer [In reply to] Can't Post

Another good thing about if their plane doesn't crash, Charlie won't die. Except I guess he'd still be a heroin addict which is probably worse.
The possibilities seem endless.


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Apr 30 2009, 7:01pm

Post #3 of 18 (178 views)
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hTank you! [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, a lot of people would still be alive, but terribly messed up, like Charlie. The incestuous brother and sister come to mind. Also the diamond thief couple. Rose would still have cancer (I still think that she and Bernard are out there somewhere.) AnaLucia would still be a rogue cop. When I tally things up, the plane landing safely scenario doesn't actually sound all that great.

Besides, as a viewer, if the entire Lost experience gets unwritten by a change of timeline, I am going to feel terribly cheated! I have invested my attention on all of these character arcs for years, and just like that, it all gets unmade, the life-changing lessons get unlearned, and people go back to square one. Not fair!

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


batik
Tol Eressea


May 1 2009, 3:40am

Post #4 of 18 (182 views)
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Dan! Dan! He's the man! [In reply to] Can't Post

Well I did like hearing him explain [something] in that "if-this-then-that" manner. At least he tied some of the events together in an easy to follow fashion.

I really thought Eloise was lying when she told Penny she couldn't see (hadn't seen) what was going to happen. As soon as Penny left the area to see Des I thought omg!- that witch is going to take Charlie! I was really glad to be wrong.

Tons of questions but that's for another time...


Aerin
Grey Havens


May 1 2009, 4:11am

Post #5 of 18 (171 views)
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I thought the same thing! [In reply to] Can't Post

That Eloise was going to snatch Charlie -- they really set us up for that!

Hobbit Family Histories


batik
Tol Eressea


May 1 2009, 5:58am

Post #6 of 18 (175 views)
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clear as mud to me! [In reply to] Can't Post

Alright...Widmore and Hawking were/are Others since 1954. Why *others*--did they or didn't they start out as military? Do we know how/when they became *others*?

Widmore's been off Island since 1993, one year after the Purge. Hawking, I assume, longer than that. Why the need to locate the Island? What needs fixing?

Seems like the whole deal is alot less about the Flight 815 survivors than...something else. Thinking along the lines of --all the world's a stage and we are merely players--a Shakespeare/Rush combo there!

What did Dan say...no incident--no need to push the button; no need to push the button--no error made on that; no error made on that--no Flight 815 crash, etc. The electromagnetic thingamagig.

What would happen if the H-bomb went off? The Others die? No Dan born? No Dan born-what? Would the H bomb going off have an effect on the ability of the women to bear children? Or is that the above mentioned electromagnetic-thing?

It's 1977 (btw the year Hugo, Kate, Miles, and Ethan are noted to be born) but the Purge doesn't happen until 1992.

And yes, what a choice for Jack and Co. to think about. No doubt many folk have looked back on situation A and sort of wished that hadn't been BUT because situation A existed then opportunity B arose and was good. *THEN* the choice not to experience A is given but B is *lost* in the process. Ah-ha *lost*...hmmm.

Who or what was lost?

told ya, clear as mud!


a.s.
Valinor


May 1 2009, 10:13am

Post #7 of 18 (201 views)
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I hope I'm wrong, but (spoilers) [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that "nurse" who was going to watch Charlie while Penny went in to visit with Desmond in "recovery" is going to abscond with little Charlie. Or lose him. Or something.

It was odd, the line "this nurse will watch your child" was odd, the whole thing was odd. Why would a mom leave her child in the waiting room with "a nurse"? Not going to happen, in real life.

I think Charlie's in danger. Hope I'm wrong.

a.s.

"an seileachan"

God is eternal, without beginning or end. Don't worry too much about tomorrow. God is already there.




Auxerre
Bree


May 1 2009, 12:31pm

Post #8 of 18 (174 views)
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That worries me, too [In reply to] Can't Post

It was just a short, almost a background line, but I was startled to see Penneh let Charlie go off so easily. It could have been just a line thrown in by the writers, but given how this show circles back around so often (and loops, and circles, and folds, etc), I'm afraid that "nurse" is going to turn out to be working for Ben. Or Widmore. Whoever!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


almas_sparks
Rohan

May 1 2009, 3:42pm

Post #9 of 18 (189 views)
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Please kill Kate! [In reply to] Can't Post

She`s boring and she ruins interesting character`s storylines (Jack and Sawyer, most notably, enough with this trite love triangle already!) . Plus Evangeline Lilly is the weakest actor on the show bar none.

Overall, great show ith great characters.


Ginger
Lorien

May 1 2009, 6:25pm

Post #10 of 18 (152 views)
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I was expecting something to happen too [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm thinking it's not a throw away line.

A back to the old boards Psst - *tackle hug* It's good to see you.


Dreamdeer
Valinor


May 1 2009, 6:49pm

Post #11 of 18 (158 views)
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I like Kate [In reply to] Can't Post

Her acting was weak in the first season, but she's grown a lot since then. And her character intrigues me, her teetering between good and evil. Besides, who knows when we'll need her tracking or escape-artist talents?

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


Dreamdeer
Valinor


May 1 2009, 6:53pm

Post #12 of 18 (157 views)
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Yes indeed! [In reply to] Can't Post

All very suspicious--since when do nurses have time to babysit for visitors? Nurses in the USA barely have time to whiz past every patient on their rounds. At most the receptionist might keep an eye on the kid.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


Dreamdeer
Valinor


May 1 2009, 7:02pm

Post #13 of 18 (151 views)
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What's in it for Dan? [In reply to] Can't Post

If Dan never goes to the Island, he remains brain-damaged, bereft of short-term memory (presumably from the same time-travel accident that put his girlfriend in a semi-coma.) Would Widmore have sent him back with or without the crash of 815? Or did that crash give Widmore a clue as to where to go? If he wants back so bad, why send others without returning himself?

Or is Eloise hoping that if Dan changes the past, Dan will A) not suffer the damage in the first place, or B) she can take him to the island on a different occasion, and he never dies at her hands after all?

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


Aerin
Grey Havens


May 2 2009, 4:25am

Post #14 of 18 (144 views)
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I like her too. [In reply to] Can't Post

And I've never thought her acting was weak. Interestingly, the original concept was for Kate to be the initial leader of the castaways (what turned out to be the Jack role). I found this Wikipedia account of casting decisions fascinating:

"Many of the first season roles were a result of the executive producers' liking of various actors. The main character Jack was originally going to die in the pilot, and was hoped to be played by Michael Keaton; however, ABC executives were adamant that Jack live. Before it was decided that Jack would live, Kate was to emerge as the leader of the survivors; she was originally conceived to be more like the character of Rose. Dominic Monaghan auditioned for the role of Sawyer, who at the time was supposed to be a suit-wearing city con man. The producers enjoyed Monaghan's performance and changed the character of Charlie, originally a middle-aged former rock star, to fit him. Jorge Garcia also auditioned for Sawyer, and the part of Hurley was written for him. When Josh Holloway auditioned for Sawyer, the producers liked the edge he brought to the character (he reportedly kicked a chair when he forgot his lines and got angry in the audition) and his southern accent, so they changed Sawyer to fit Holloway's acting. Yunjin Kim auditioned for Kate, but the producers wrote the character of Sun for her and the character of Jin, portrayed by Daniel Dae Kim, to be her husband. Sayid, played by Naveen Andrews, was also not in the original script. Locke and Michael were written with their actors in mind. Emilie de Ravin, who plays Claire, was originally cast in what was supposed to be a recurring role. In the second season, Michael Emerson was contracted to play Ben ("Henry Gale") for three episodes. His role was extended to eight episodes because of his acting skills, and eventually for the whole of season three and season four. Rebecca Mader's role of Charlotte was originally only intended for 8 episodes of season 4, but her role was extended to the whole of the season, and part of season 5."

Hobbit Family Histories


Dreamdeer
Valinor


May 2 2009, 5:43am

Post #15 of 18 (143 views)
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Hurley as a con man? [In reply to] Can't Post

Now that has some delicious possibilities!

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


JRandomRohirrim
Rohan


May 4 2009, 12:13pm

Post #16 of 18 (132 views)
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Let Me Offer Another View of Eloise... [In reply to] Can't Post

If you really can't change history even if you can time travel (and Lost is still ambiguous on this point), then she becomes a tragic heroine. She always knows she will accidentally kill her son and there's not a thing she can do about it. Eloise was always played with a kind of reserved sadness. So I'm not ready to condemn Eloise and call her a witch.


The Road News and Rumors
http://www.theroadrumors.com


Dreamdeer
Valinor


May 4 2009, 3:14pm

Post #17 of 18 (146 views)
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Valid point [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for correcting my initial anger.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


FantasyFan
Rohan


May 4 2009, 4:25pm

Post #18 of 18 (174 views)
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This is what I was thinking as well (spoilers) [In reply to] Can't Post

When we very first met her, she was trying to help Desmond with his flashes. And her main point was, you can't change anything. Hearing more of her story, I thought, that was the voice of experience. How hard she must have tried to change things, knowing that what was in Daniel's future was in her past, and that she couldn't change it.


"That is one thing that Men call 'hope.' Amdir we call it, 'looking up.' But there is another which is founded deeper. Estel we call it, that is 'trust.' It is not defeated by the ways of the world, for it does not come from experience, but from our nature and First Being. If we are indeed the Eruhin, the Children of the One, then He will not suffer Himself to be deprived of His own, not by any enemy, not even by ourselves. This is the last foundation of estel, which we keep even when we contemplate the End. Of all His designs the issue must be for His children's joy."
Finrod, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, HoME X Morgoth's Ring


 
 

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