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batik
Tol Eressea
Apr 30 2009, 5:02am
Post #1 of 24
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OotF-PitF: "Must we go any further?"
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From the first line of this chapter until Gandalf remarks that it’s time to make (no) tracks we are, for the most part, provided with recaps of what happened in OH-UH and RitD. Other than Bilbo’s remarkable return, not much seems to *happen*. In The Annotated Hobbit this covers roughly 5 pages (out of approximately 20 pages of text) or about a quarter of our reading. Finally—the company gets moving. And Bilbo (bless him!) is once again in food mode--small wonder as it appears that more than 48 hours have passed since the group was captured. Gandalf comments that they have traveled “miles and miles”. - Anyone care to have a go () at estimating the number of miles?
- (By the way on the map of the Wilderland [in TAH] under the words “Goblin Gate” is written: ? “Eyrie”—what is that--?)
Now comes one of the events I find comical and can easily get a visual on—the quick trip down the side of the hill with “the trees at the bottom that saved them.” For some reason I assumed the group was much further done the hillside (and a greater distance from the back door) but upon closer reading, I suppose they were still at a fairly high elevation. - Movie-goers—we got a version of this in FotR. Was that intended as a nod to this scene in The Hobbit?
What comes down must go up? The group seems to arrive on fairly flat land upon entering the glade but within an apparently short time are scrambling right back up. The wolves are coming! - Have any of you been in a similar situation—in an unfamiliar environment, tired, hungry, and aware that something bad-scary is coming?
Dori is described as a decent fellow--for the second time. - Does his helpfulness towards Bilbo (along with knowing he wore a purple hood, plays the flute, relates to Bilbo on the matter of meals, and tells a story concisely) help you to distinguish him from the other Dwarves?
These wolves are called Wargs and are in cahoots with the goblins! - How do Wargs and goblins communicate to the extent that raids on villages are planned?
Then…Gandalf creates a bit of chaos with his flaming pinecone bombs and this might have solved the Warg problem if…. …to be continued. (Please add comments, if you wish, concerning any uncovered ground up to this point in the tale.)
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Apr 30 2009, 7:08am
Post #2 of 24
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let's assume that Wargs are about as astute as very smart dogs. Would it be fair to say that Goblins, moved by the same evil, are at least, but not much more, as smart as dogs? Does Tolkein hint otherwise (their capacity for inteligible speach not with standing)?
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 30 2009, 12:36pm
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Tolkien says goblins may have invented
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modern war machines. That seems quite clever, if not wise.
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sador
Half-elven
Apr 30 2009, 1:13pm
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A few answers, some to the point
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Anyone care to have a go () at estimating the number of miles? "miles" means two, at least. So "miles and miles" means four miles, and perhaps even more. By the way on the map of the Wilderland [in TAH] under the words “Goblin Gate” is written: ? “Eyrie”—what is that--? The Eagles' eyerie. And it's also in the plain Houghton-Mifflin edition, at the end. Movie-goers—we got a version of this in FotR. Was that intended as a nod to this scene in The Hobbit? Where? Do you mean in escaping the Black Rider? Then I'd say no. It isn't similar enough. In the RotK EE, we got the rolling on skulls skit - going all the way from Erech to Pelargir! Quite a ride. But that doesn't look like a nod to The Hobbit either. Have any of you been in a similar situation—in an unfamiliar environment, tired, hungry, and aware that something bad-scary is coming? Not that I remember. Does his helpfulness towards Bilbo (along with knowing he wore a purple hood, plays the flute, relates to Bilbo on the matter of meals, and tells a story concisely) help you to distinguish him from the other Dwarves? Yes - but if you'll forgive me, I'll decline to discuss Dori until 'Not at Home'. How do Wargs and goblins communicate to the extent that raids on villages are planned? I assume the goblins know the language of the wargs - Gandalf and Beorn do!
"What is all this uproar in the forest tonight?" - the Lord of the Eagles
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 30 2009, 3:53pm
Post #5 of 24
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"Three fat quail at the foot of a large fir-tree"
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Anyone care to have a go ( ) at estimating the number of miles? Twenty-one dollars and fifteen cents! (By the way on the map of the Wilderland [in TAH] under the words “Goblin Gate” is written: ? “Eyrie”—what is that--?) An eyrie? Now comes one of the events I find comical and can easily get a visual on—the quick trip down the side of the hill with “the trees at the bottom that saved them.” For some reason I assumed the group was much further done the hillside (and a greater distance from the back door) but upon closer reading, I suppose they were still at a fairly high elevation. Movie-goers—we got a version of this in FotR. Was that intended as a nod to this scene in The Hobbit? I always assumed so. What comes down must go up? Especailly when you're talking about Wham-O Super Balls. The group seems to arrive on fairly flat land upon entering the glade but within an apparently short time are scrambling right back up. The wolves are coming! Have any of you been in a similar situation—in an unfamiliar environment, tired, hungry, and aware that something bad-scary is coming? Yes, and sometimes you’re so tired and hungry you just don’t care, which can either make you a hero, or, more likely, a corpse. Dori is described as a decent fellow--for the second time. Does his helpfulness towards Bilbo (along with knowing he wore a purple hood, plays the flute, relates to Bilbo on the matter of meals, and tells a story concisely) help you to distinguish him from the other Dwarves? The Dwarves need all the character development they can get! These wolves are called Wargs and are in cahoots with the goblins! How do Wargs and goblins communicate to the extent that raids on villages are planned? Cell phones are obviously an invention of the goblins, curse them! Then…Gandalf creates a bit of chaos with his flaming pinecone bombs and this might have solved the Warg problem if…. I love the contrast with the later: 'The wind's in the West,' said Sam. 'If we get to the other side of this hill, we shall find a spot that is sheltered and snug enough, sir. There is a dry fir-wood just ahead, if I remember rightly.' Sam knew the land well within twenty miles of Hobbiton, but that was the limit of his geography. Just over the top of the hill they came on the patch of fir-wood. Leaving the road they went into the deep resin-scented darkness of the trees, and gathered dead sticks and cones to make a fire. Soon they had a merry crackle of flame at the foot of a large fir-tree and they sat round it for a while, until they began to nod. And Jackson filled Bag End with pinecones as set dressing.
****************************************** The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 30 2009, 4:47pm
Post #6 of 24
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(Please add comments, if you wish, concerning any uncovered ground up to this point in the tale.) Okay. Note that Bilbo was ready to turn back for the dwarves, but the dwarves -- or at least one unnamed dwarf -- were not willing to go back for him. On the other hand, Bilbo now has a ring of invisibility, and the dwarves do not. On the other (third?) hand, the dwarves have Gandalf, and Bilbo does not. On the whole, I think Bilbo comes off looking better than the dwarves. If I were the lookout for a party attempting to hide, would I wear a red hood like Balin's? Maybe the dwarves should have worn camouflage outfits. Or at least something in green and brown. But then they aren't Rangers. I find it strange that Balin is the lookout, when he is the second oldest dwarf and Fili and Kili are the scouts. Similarly, I found it strange that Bombur fought the trolls and carried Bilbo but is the fattest of the dwarves, with no mention of his strength. Tolkien's use of the dwarves seems haphazard. He needs a dwarf and sometimes seems to pick one at random. That's one reason why it is hard to keep track of which dwarf is which. In LotR we learn that Gandalf disapproves of Bilbo's omission of the magic ring, and sees that as the first sign of evil influence. But I don't see any disapproval from Gandalf here. Instead, Gandalf laughs with pleasure at Bilbo's story, while at the same time giving him a queer look. To me it appears that this is the knowing and approving look of one Trickster to another. And as I commented elsewhere, Bilbo's casual story of escaping the goblins reminds me of Gandalf's casual story of escaping the goblins in the initial encounter, and then nipping into the crack and following them. I really wonder whether Gandalf is telling the dwarves everything about how he avoided detection. Note that the ring offers Bilbo no advantage over wolves, with their keen sense of smell. The same will be true of Smaug. So right after Bilbo is declared a Burglar at last, he gets his comeuppance, once again dependent on Dori to boost him into the branches. Dori complaining about being a porter sounds rather modern, although the word dates back to the 1200s. Gandalf does his best with the wolves, but his best is not good enough. In LotR, outside of Moria, Gandalf does much better, burning down half a mountainside and making were-Wargs flee. Gandalf seems to grow in power between The Hobbit and LotR, even before he becomes Gandalf the White. Anyone care to have a go () at estimating the number of miles? No. In LotR we might have been given an estimate in leagues; in The Hobbit Tolkien is less precise. (By the way on the map of the Wilderland [in TAH] under the words “Goblin Gate” is written: ? “Eyrie”—what is that--?) The lofty nests of the Eagles. Apparently it was near the Goblin Gate. Movie-goers—we got a version of this in FotR. Was that intended as a nod to this scene in The Hobbit? I don't even remember that. Have any of you been in a similar situation—in an unfamiliar environment, tired, hungry, and aware that something bad-scary is coming? Thankfully, no. Does [Dori's] helpfulness towards Bilbo (along with knowing he wore a purple hood, plays the flute, relates to Bilbo on the matter of meals, and tells a story concisely) help you to distinguish him from the other Dwarves? Not so much. We hear about it in two chapters, but that's about it. And Dori does not have a character arc, or a major part to play. So he plays a minor speaking role for a couple of chapters, and then fades into the background again. Gollum is far more memorable, even though we only see him for one chapter. How do Wargs and goblins communicate to the extent that raids on villages are planned? I would assume orally with messengers, not by telephone or mail. Although a wolf howl can carry a long distance.
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Apr 30 2009, 6:30pm
Post #7 of 24
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There are times when a trickster is so charming that one cannot help but laugh in appreciation, even as one shoots him a glance to say, "I really don't approve, though I cannot help but wink at what you do."
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Apr 30 2009, 6:51pm
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I second Curious's observation that wolf-howls carry quite a distance. If they're anything like coyote howls, they also can convey complicated information. When you listen, you can tell different things going on with coyotes miles away. There's the hunting howls: "Prey! This way! Join me!" "We're coming! Hold on!" "I'm over here! I've got this side covered!" "And I'm here!" "Yay! Victory! Everybody come eat!" "Happy happy happy!" There's the lonely/reunion set of interactions: "Where arrrre you guys? I'm all alone!" "Over here. We're coming. Stay put until we get there." "I'm still herrrre!" "We're coming." "Hey, the gang's all here!" "Love love happy happy reunion!" There's the unexpected reunion: "Oh my! Fancy meeting you here! Hey guys, look who turned up!" "Love love happy happy reunion!" There's the challenge: "Who made you hunt leader?" "Oh yeah? You want a piece of me? Just try!" "Hey guys, fight! Fight! Come and witness!" "Die! Die you miscreant!" "Ai! Ai! Ai! You win!" "Okay everybody, let's make peace. Love love happy happy!" Occasionally, at dawn I hear them all howling together in a way that sounds so joyful that I can only imagine that it means, "Morning is so beautiful and we all feel healthy!" And one night, I heard the most wrenchingly mournful howls, far in the distance, and then a nearer pack took it over, and then a nearer one, and then the two packs on the Ranch took it up and passed it on close by, and then it passed onward to the other side of us clear to the mountains and perhaps beyond my hearing. The next day I read in the paper that a suburb of Tucson, recently built where coyotes roam, and where the coyotes continued to roam, hunting the occasional pet, had decided that enough was enough and gunned down all the coyotes that they could find within city limits, all on a single dreadful day. I had heard the coyotes passing the news on throughout the region.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Apr 30 2009, 7:47pm
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The only time(s) I've been in anything like that predicament [in an unfamiliar environment, tired, hungry, and aware that something bad-scary is coming] is on way too many occasions when I've been hiking way above treeline and heard thunder. And I guess a few times we've been hiking in the dark and wondered if that rustling in the underbrush was a rabbit or a fox or maybe a bear or mountain lion. But nothing really concrete in the wild-animal department beyond shining the flashlight around while our hearts are pounding. Oh, and the time I saw the broadside of a truck in front of me as I was driving at 60 mph and knew I couldn't avoid a collision, and the time I saw a child on a bike crashing into the front of my car as I was driving at 30 mph. That was 35 years ago and I still wince when I see a bicyclist cut across the road. (She shattered both legs but eventually recovered. I didn't drive for years afterward.) And I guess last year when I was trying to drive home and there were tornadoes in the area. I could never really distinguish any of the dwarves except for Thorin, Bombur, and Balin. And Fili and Kili as a collective pair. I don't know how many miles, but I'm reminded of a colleague who described driving across Texas as "miles and miles of miles and miles." I hadn't thought of the scene in movie-FotR as being a nod to The Hobbit, but now that you mention it, it does look pretty similar.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories leleni at hotmail dot com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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sador
Half-elven
Apr 30 2009, 8:56pm
Post #10 of 24
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Blink... blink again... what was that?
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I must be very tired, but I had to read this sentence three times to understand it: And I guess last year when I was trying to drive home and there were TORnadoes in the area.
Yes, I should be going to bed. Good night!
"What is all this uproar in the forest tonight?" - the Lord of the Eagles
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Apr 30 2009, 9:32pm
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I hear them around here sometimes, but I've never been able to guess what they were saying. Loved your delightful interpretation! You might enjoy these books if you haven't read them already: God's Dog: Conversations with Coyote Coyote Says: More Conversations with God's Dog Get a God: More Conversations with Coyote They're collections of sermons in which the minister imagines having conversations with Coyote the Trickster, and taking him for rides in the desert in his convertible. My favorite one was when the minister met Coyote and Jesus in the donut shop for a little philosophical conversation.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories leleni at hotmail dot com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Apr 30 2009, 10:27pm
Post #12 of 24
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Not. That would be delightful :-)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories leleni at hotmail dot com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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batik
Tol Eressea
Apr 30 2009, 11:37pm
Post #14 of 24
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qualify as pretty bad-scary, in my book--especially the ones related to driving. I am hoping to recognize the dwarves by the end of the book. Dori has now joined the ranks of *know*, for me. I don't know how many miles, but I'm reminded of a colleague who described driving across Texas as "miles and miles of miles and miles." Yup, it's a long way both east/west and north/south.
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
May 1 2009, 6:37pm
Post #16 of 24
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Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Reptile
Rivendell
May 1 2009, 10:14pm
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Have been in something of a similar situation
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What comes down must go up? The group seems to arrive on fairly flat land upon entering the glade but within an apparently short time are scrambling right back up. The wolves are coming! - Have any of you been in a similar situation—in an unfamiliar environment, tired, hungry, and aware that something bad-scary is coming?
In younger days, longer ago than I care to mention, a friend and I were caught near dark in a trail-less area up in the Trinity Alps of northern California. It was a hike of several miles to get back to his truck, the terrain very steep and the path, an old overgrown ditch grade from the gold mining era, was interrupted by almost impassablle lanslides at a number of points. At the bottom of the canyon, a thousand feet below, was a rushing torrent. My friend and I debated whether to stick it out and try to spend a night in the mountains with no packs or food or sleeping bags, or risk the difficult trail in the dark. We, unwisely, decided to take a chance on trying to get as far as we could before dark, and trust to our luck in getting down the slope at the right spot and finding our way across the creek. How dark could it get? It turns out, VERY DARK; the light fades quickly when you're in a steep canyon, and we were practically reduced to crawling and feeling our way along the path. It took hours to get to the point where we knew we had to go down the slope, a rocky landslide that we couldn't miss even in the dark. We stumbled and groped our way down that slide, finally plunging into the icy water at the bottom, with skinned shins and bruised knees. By the time we struggled our way across the rocky stream, waist-deep in places, we were drenched, bruised, scratched and weary. It took quite a while to find where his truck was parked; we practically had to bump into it to find it. Even after all these many years, I can still feel that sense of panic as we realized that dark was coming and we were going to be caught out in the forrest on a steep slope with a steep rocky slope to have to climb down in the dark. It was so dark that you could see certain funguses glowing among the trees. At least I hoped that glow was fungus. I was more scared than I have ever been in my life.
"If you listen closely, you can hear the gods laughing."
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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May 3 2009, 7:40pm
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The range of emotions carried by the coyote howls is amazing. The spreading of the sad news brings to mind the "Twilight Bark" scene in 101 Dalmatians, where what seems like dogs merely barking at one another is actually information being passed along. Dogs that I've had have done this, and I've wondered what the news was, wishing they were capable of human speech!
...In honor of ... ......TORN's annual ......Founder's Day Celebration ...........Established 4/26/09
...Corvar, Xoanon, Tehanu, Calisuri.....LARGER IMAGE
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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May 3 2009, 8:32pm
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I'll "cheat" a bit about the distance travelled! Karen Wynn Fonstad has a great map of just the area from the Goblin-gate to the Eyrie on p.104 of her "Altas of Middle-earth". According to her scale, which seems to be based on time of day as determined from the text and assuming a travel rate of 2.5 to 3 mph, the approximate distances are 11 miles from the Gate to the dell, 8 from the dell to the landslide, and 9 from there to the clearing - for a total of about 28 miles. Gandalf says the dell was "still pretty high up", and Fonstad gives the landslide a horizontal distance of over a mile, so that must have been quite a "ride" down! I would speculate that Dori's attributes will not go unnoticed by certain moviemakers! A bad incident in an unfamiliar location: I think the closest I've been was in London, four years ago in July. That morning, hubby and our two then-teens and I left our hotel, and walked the kilometer to King's Cross to take the train to visit our eldest in Edinburgh. Fifteen minutes before departure, a lot of police began coming around, then they shut off the subway entrance, then evacuated everyone. So there we are, with luggage, in a crowd with people trying frantically to use their cell phones to find out what was going on. It was eerie: double-decker buses were parked en mass and empty, streets had such traffic jams that people gave up and left their cars. Ambulances were everywhere. We had no idea where to go or what to do. After a while we decided to head back to the hotel by a different route, but could not get closer than two blocks: the road was barricaded - and the police kept increasing the distance of the barricade from the road outside the hotel. We managed to find a place that had phones, but could not contact our daughter - cell phone communication within Britain was either at capacity, or being blocked. We had to call my in-laws in the States, who got in touch with her. We found a small pizza restaurant where we holed up during a rainstorm; then back out onto the street. At one point we just sat there on our luggage; I was miserable, this was not an enjoyable "adventure"! Finally we managed to figure out a long way around to the back of the hotel, where security people were escorting small groups in and out the back doors. Then we found out about the subway bombings - which had happened as we sat in King's Cross. The reason the road in front of the hotel was inaccessible? Two blocks down, and less than an hour after we had walked through there, a bus had blown up. It was all a little too close for my liking.
...In honor of ... ......TORN's annual ......Founder's Day Celebration ...........Established 4/26/09
...Corvar, Xoanon, Tehanu, Calisuri.....LARGER IMAGE
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
May 4 2009, 12:03am
Post #20 of 24
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My, but you made that sound vivid! //
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Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
May 5 2009, 8:22pm
Post #21 of 24
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This part always gets me! I had this happen to me when I was walking along hillsides years ago, and it's terrifying! You try to keep your feet, because you know if you fall, you're gonna be scratched, raked and basically chewed up! I also grabbed a tree to stop myself. So I totally related to this moment! Have any of you been in a similar situation—in an unfamiliar environment, tired, hungry, and aware that something bad-scary is coming? Yeah... I have. When my (then) husband and I were hippies with our then 1 year old daughter, we were travelling all over the U.S. in this beat up old 1961 Ford van that was painted lime green. We stopped in Tennessee, which was always dangerous. The main highway (I 75) wasn't even built through the state yet, and it was notorious for hating those d*#@ hippies. We were starving (did odd jobs for money) and we only ate once a day. This was it, and I couldn't wait to get some food. It was a grubby old shack of a place. Hubby got out of the van first and I was fussing about getting the baby and diaper bag together. Suddenly, he kept hissing, "Get out of the truck! Get out of the truck!" He wasn't moving, and was panicked. I got out and looked behind us in the parking lot. There were 3 pickup trucks with 2 men from each walking towards us carrying rifles. They didn't look happy to see us. As soon as I got out, they stopped and just stood there looking at us with such contempt. We got right back into the van, and they followed us until we crossed the state line. I was never so scared in my life!
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..." I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world. TORn's Observations Lists
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
May 6 2009, 2:09am
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I'm so glad that you came through all right, Gramma! And thank you for livening up the Reading Room with your presence. I don't always have responses to what you say, but I appreciate you being here.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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May 8 2009, 10:20am
Post #23 of 24
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And that is so eerie about the glowing fungus...!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I desired dragons with a profound desire" "It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?" -Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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May 8 2009, 10:22am
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...that was a heart-in-the-mouth situation! Orcs do not exist in Middle-earth alone...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I desired dragons with a profound desire" "It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?" -Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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