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Chapter V: Riddles in the Dark – The Great Escape and General Comments

Morthoron
Gondor


Apr 26 2009, 1:03am

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Chapter V: Riddles in the Dark – The Great Escape and General Comments Can't Post

"What has it got in its pocketses?"


The dawning of an infuriating thought seizes Gollum’s mistrustful and malevolent. His only hope is that Bilbo has no idea how the Ring works (or at least, the one use that Gollum esteems). Unfortunately, in his lunge to throttle Bilbo, the hobbit slips the ring on while it’s still in his pocket, and Gollum rushes past the invisible Bilbo, who finally realizes that he has a magic ring and that it can turn the bearer invisible!

The greatest divergence between the original Hobbit and the revised edition occurs in this section of ‘Riddles in the Dark’. In fact, the Original edition seems odd when we look at the two versions side-by-side. In the original, the chapter is abruptly ended and the character of Gollum simply pads off back to his lake after showing Bilbo the way out. If anything, it is rather anticlimactic and…well…just odd. The revised edition crackles with action and contains some of the best ‘Gollumisms’ Tolkien ever created. Gollum’s running monologue carries us forward, describes the hallways and passage, and warns of the perils of the goblins at the gate.

Gollum’s eyes must be positively incandescent, as Bilbo ‘could see the light of his eyes palely shining even from behind’. Does this seem possible? Yes, yes…it is a fantasy, but could such an occular mutation happen within 500 years (even though The Hobbit doesn’t describe the length of time Gollum has spent below ground)?

When Bilbo realizes he has a magic ring, he rationalizes that he had ‘heard of such things, of course, in old old tales’.

Given the mentions of magic rings elsewhere in the Lord of the Rings, and Gandalf’s warning that "There are many magic rings in this world, Bilbo Baggins, and none of them should be used lightly," what exactly do you think these rings did from a magical standpoint? I don’t believe Gandalf was referring to the Rings of Power when he admonished Bilbo, so there must be other such rings about. Perhaps lesser Elven rings?

‘He must fight. He must stab the foul thing, put its eyes out, kill it. It meant to kill him. No, not a fair fight. He was invisible now. Gollum had no sword. Gollum had not actually threatened to kill him, or tried to yet. And he was miserable, alone, lost. A sudden understanding, a pity mixed with horror…’

In the above paragraph we find Bilbo withholding a stroke of his blade. Strictly from the point of self-preservation, he is within his rights to kill Gollum, or blind him, but Hobbitish sensibility and fair play stay his hand. Is this sequence where Tolkien derives the overarching theme of mercy in the Lord of the Rings?

The text explains that Bilbo leapt over Gollum seven feet forward and three in the air’, and that such a jump was ‘no great leap for a man’.

Have you ever jumped seven feet forward and three feet in the air? I know I haven’t. It must be I have a greater gravitational force.

With great relief, we find Bilbo navigating through the Goblin guards and squeezing through the door, losing the coveted brass buttons off his waistcoat (or ‘weskit’ as the Gaffer would say) in the process.

Interesting that one’s shadow can be seen while wearing the Ring. Is this somewhat like a photograph negative?

Sorry for the abbreviated offering, but the 10th anniversary of the site is beckoning. Please add any comments or include important points I have neglected to touch on in my hurry to finish.

Thank you for your patience and your posts.

Read the ongoing serialization of MONTY PYTHON'S 'The HOBBIT', found here:
http://www.fanfiction.net/...y_Pythons_The_Hobbit


sador
Half-elven

Apr 26 2009, 6:42am

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A few answers, some to the point [In reply to] Can't Post

We can't join the festivities while a RR discussion has no answers to it, can we preciouss?



In Reply To

The Original edition seems odd when we look at the two versions side-by-side. In the original, the chapter is abruptly ended and the character of Gollum simply pads off back to his lake after showing Bilbo the way out. If anything, it is rather anticlimactic and…well…just odd. The revised edition crackles with action and contains some of the best ‘Gollumisms’ Tolkien ever created.

I couldn't agree more.

Gollum’s eyes must be positively incandescent, as Bilbo ‘could see the light of his eyes palely shining even from behind’. Does this seem possible? Yes, yes…it is a fantasy, but could such an occular mutation happen within 500 years (even though The Hobbit doesn’t describe the length of time Gollum has spent below ground)?
Gollum has been living for years on a phosphorus-rich diet. Maybe that helped?

Given the mentions of magic rings elsewhere in the Lord of the Rings, and Gandalf’s warning that "There are many magic rings in this world, Bilbo Baggins, and none of them should be used lightly," what exactly do you think these rings did from a magical standpoint? I don’t believe Gandalf was referring to the Rings of Power when he admonished Bilbo, so there must be other such rings about. Perhaps lesser Elven rings?
Yes, of course; Gandalf told Frodo that in his opinion, even the lesser rings were perilous.


In the above paragraph we find Bilbo withholding a stroke of his blade. Strictly from the point of self-preservation, he is within his rights to kill Gollum, or blind him, but Hobbitish sensibility and fair play stay his hand. Is this sequence where Tolkien derives the overarching theme of mercy in the Lord of the Rings?
Well, I'm sure he derived it from his religious beliefs.
But yes, this is the first occurance of the theme.

Have you ever jumped seven feet forward and three feet in the air? I know I haven’t. It must be I have a greater gravitational force.
No, I can't.

But Tolkien's legendarium has in it a great leap of a Man - the Leap of Beren on Curufin's horse.
Compared to that - Bilbo's leap does pale into insignificance; and I suspect Tolkien already wrote of that leap (in some form or other) when he wrote this passage.

Interesting that one’s shadow can be seen while wearing the Ring. Is this somewhat like a photograph negative?
More like Anderssen's fables.


I must add two notes:

1. How come Boromir didn't notice Frodo's shadow when Frodo put the Ring on at Amon Hen? Was he so crazed he didn't notice it, or did Tolkien simply decide to ignore this disturbing fact?

2. This reminds me of The Fall of Gil-galad:

Quote

For into darkness fell his star
In Mordor where the shadows are.

The Ring makes actual substance disappear, but the shadow remains. What does that make the Land of Shadow?




Quote


Sorry for the abbreviated offering, but the 10th anniversary of the site is beckoning. Please add any comments or include important points I have neglected to touch on in my hurry to finish.


I just want to mention the wierd hide-and-seek game Bilbo plays with the goblin guards at the Gate. It is comic in a crude way, probably very appealing to kids he need to mellow up after the tension of the previous chapter (and before going to bed).
I love it, although I usually turn my nose up at such humour. Maybe I also need such a relief.


And thank you again!
Apart from sheer fun, I've also learned quite a bit - always a good thing.

"Praps ye sits here and chats with it a bitsy, my preciousss" - Gollum


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Apr 26 2009, 1:08pm

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Frodo's shadow [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm thinking Tolkien probably forgot the shadow by then, or chose to ignore it. But I can rationalize it by saying that if there were trees around making dappled shadows on the ground, Frodo's shadow could have been obscured.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Apr 26 2009, 1:16pm

Post #4 of 23 (629 views)
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A few answers [In reply to] Can't Post

Regarding Gollum's eyes, I've always had the feeling in reading this chapter that Gollum was quite a different creature than he was in LotR, a kind of "creature from the Black Lagoon" and not related to hobbits at all. In fact, when I first read LotR, I had to work hard to change the mental image I had of him.

I think the other magic rings are like the ones that we find in fairy tales, that give powers like invisibility or great strength or speed or being impervious to fire and so on.

That jump seems almost beyond the realm of believability, but not quite. I'm thinking back many, many years to when I was a skinny little seven-year-old, and I got it into my head that if I practiced running and jumping I might someday take off and learn to fly. I spent all summer practicing jumping over some boxes that had held ceiling tiles, and jumping across a "chasm" formed by two jump ropes set further and further apart. I have no idea how far I actually jumped, maybe four or five feet, but it felt like a long way.

I think the shadow is something like the soul; the ring can make the body invisible, but there's *something* left that can't be hidden.

Great discussion, Morthoron. Thanks!



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on Apr 26 2009, 1:18pm)


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Apr 26 2009, 8:50pm

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My Thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Gollum’s eyes must be positively incandescent, as Bilbo ‘could see the light of his eyes palely shining even from behind’. Does this seem possible? Yes, yes…it is a fantasy, but could such an occular mutation happen within 500 years (even though The Hobbit doesn’t describe the length of time Gollum has spent below ground)?

It's magic. The Ring gives power according to the bearer's stature. Over the years, I figure, it mutated Gollum in ways beyond biology to adapt him to his miserable kingdom of choice, by giving him flappy (webbed?) feet and incandescent eyes.

Given the mentions of magic rings elsewhere in the Lord of the Rings, and Gandalf’s warning that "There are many magic rings in this world, Bilbo Baggins, and none of them should be used lightly," what exactly do you think these rings did from a magical standpoint? I don’t believe Gandalf was referring to the Rings of Power when he admonished Bilbo, so there must be other such rings about. Perhaps lesser Elven rings?

I've always wondered about that--those elvish "essays in the craft" as Gandalf called them. Celebrimbor's experiments? I'd hazard that at first they'd have individual magical specialties, including invisibility, before he started making package deals with combined powers, and then ultimately created Rings of Power, which seem to home in on whatever the wearer wants most. Be careful what you wish for...

In the above paragraph we find Bilbo withholding a stroke of his blade. Strictly from the point of self-preservation, he is within his rights to kill Gollum, or blind him, but Hobbitish sensibility and fair play stay his hand. Is this sequence where Tolkien derives the overarching theme of mercy in the Lord of the Rings?

Or else he derived this revised passage from his overarching theme.

Have you ever jumped seven feet forward and three feet in the air? I know I haven’t. It must be I have a greater gravitational force.

No, I haven't. But Tolkien was speaking as a man who'd undergone military training, from a less sedentery era. People used to be a lot more physically fit then than they are now.

Interesting that one’s shadow can be seen while wearing the Ring. Is this somewhat like a photograph negative?

I don't think so. I think it's just a shadow, albeit a faint one. Perhaps like the sort of shadow cast by something made of glass.

Thank you for your patience and your posts.

Thank YOU for faithfully posting on in the face of so much distraction!

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Apr 26 2009, 8:54pm

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Boromir's non-observation [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien says that the shadow only shows up very faintly under direct sunlight. I picture it as the sort of faint shadow that a glass object might cast, only fainter still. Such might show up against pale rock, yet not at all against thick grass with so many crisscrossing shadows of its own.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


Morthoron
Gondor


Apr 27 2009, 4:12am

Post #7 of 23 (591 views)
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The ring of truth... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I've always wondered about that--those elvish "essays in the craft" as Gandalf called them. Celebrimbor's experiments? I'd hazard that at first they'd have individual magical specialties, including invisibility, before he started making package deals with combined powers, and then ultimately created Rings of Power, which seem to home in on whatever the wearer wants most. Be careful what you wish for...

Thank YOU for faithfully posting on in the face of so much distraction!



First, thank you Dreamdeer.

One wonders if the Dwarves at the height of their abilities in the 1st/2nd Age made any rings (considering the appeal Sauron's Rings had with them). The Naugrim seemed to have magical propensities that eventually waned in the 3rd Age. In addition, what happened to the initial rings the Gwaith-i-Mirdain crafted? There was several centuries of Sauron's tutelage invested in Elves crafting rings, and I am sure some trial and error (or, if not error, less than stellar results). If, as Gandalf intimated, there are many magic rings in the world, where are they?

Read the ongoing serialization of MONTY PYTHON'S 'The HOBBIT', found here:
http://www.fanfiction.net/...y_Pythons_The_Hobbit

(This post was edited by Morthoron on Apr 27 2009, 4:12am)


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Apr 27 2009, 3:10pm

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Where are they now? [In reply to] Can't Post

Whatever happened to all of the other, lesser rings? Ah, now there's a rich field for fanfic! Especially the not-so-stellar ones which could go drastically wrong!

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 27 2009, 6:07pm

Post #9 of 23 (554 views)
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"I will make thee as a signet" [In reply to] Can't Post

When a candy store owner opens an old bottle a Genie pops out and offers to grant him a wish. The storekeeper says he would like to take the day off if the Genie would mind the store, and the Genie agrees. Soon after a regular customer enters and asks the Genie what he is doing behind the counter. The Genie explains that has taken over the store for a day and he can do anything. “Is that so,” says the skeptical customer, “so let’s see you make me a malted,” whereupon the Genie goes “Va Voom! You’re a malted!”

-Lenny Bruce


Gollum’s eyes must be positively incandescent, as Bilbo ‘could see the light of his eyes palely shining even from behind’. Does this seem possible? Yes, yes…it is a fantasy, but could such an occular mutation happen within 500 years (even though The Hobbit doesn’t describe the length of time Gollum has spent below ground)?

It could be a side effect of the ring. I mean, look at Sauron’s big red eye. Obviously any user of the ring needs to regularly consult an ophthalmologist. I note Jackson picked up on this subtlety and cast big-eyed Elijah Wood.


Given the mentions of magic rings elsewhere in the Lord of the Rings, and Gandalf’s warning that "There are many magic rings in this world, Bilbo Baggins, and none of them should be used lightly," what exactly do you think these rings did from a magical standpoint?

“Three wishes” rings that can backfire. (Like monkey’s paw rings, October people rings, etc.) This could also be a pun on the real life phenomenon of “fairy rings”, which are supposedly doorways to fairy, which shouldn’t be entered lightly. (Alternately, entering a fairy ring can result in the loss of an eye. Hello, Sauron!) And the most magical ring of all is an engagement ring, which absolutely should never ever be used lightly. (And indeed Bilbo and Frodo never do!)


I don’t believe Gandalf was referring to the Rings of Power when he admonished Bilbo, so there must be other such rings about. Perhaps lesser Elven rings?

Of course Gandalf may have been speaking metaphorically. A ring may not actually be a ring.

“In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the LORD, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the LORD of hosts.”
-Haggai 2:23

Similarly, Eru made signet rings of Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, Alatar and Pallando. (For each of his five fingers?)

And Gandalf made signet rings of hobbit lads and lasses like Bilbo, Frodo, Samwise, Merry, and Pippin. (Five again?)


In the above paragraph we find Bilbo withholding a stroke of his blade. Strictly from the point of self-preservation, he is within his rights to kill Gollum, or blind him, but Hobbitish sensibility and fair play stay his hand. Is this sequence where Tolkien derives the overarching theme of mercy in the Lord of the Rings?

I think it’s a theme Tolkien would have had regardless.


Have you ever jumped seven feet forward and three feet in the air?

There was the time the barbed wire I was stringing up snapped and came coiling back on me like an angry snake. I somehow managed to jump high enough that it passed under me. I jumped a good five feet flat-footed. Never jumped that high before, never jumped that high since.


I know I haven’t. It must be I have a greater gravitational force.

Or just not had the right impetus.


Interesting that one’s shadow can be seen while wearing the Ring. Is this somewhat like a photograph negative?

Only Eru can make you truly invisible. Sauron can only make a mockery of invisibility.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 27 2009, 6:21pm

Post #10 of 23 (546 views)
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And.... [In reply to] Can't Post

But Tolkien's legendarium has in it a great leap of a Man - the Leap of Beren on Curufin's horse.
Compared to that - Bilbo's leap does pale into insignificance; and I suspect Tolkien already wrote of that leap (in some form or other) when he wrote this passage.


There's also Legolas' Leap in Jackson's The Two Towers.


2. This reminds me of The Fall of Gil-galad:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


For into darkness fell his star
In Mordor where the shadows are.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Ring makes actual substance disappear, but the shadow remains. What does that make the Land of Shadow?


Very nice!


I just want to mention the wierd hide-and-seek game Bilbo plays with the goblin guards at the Gate. It is comic in a crude way, probably very appealing to kids he need to mellow up after the tension of the previous chapter (and before going to bed).

This is going to be funny as heck on the screen. I'm sure purists (book *and* film) will hate it!

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



Curious
Half-elven


Apr 27 2009, 7:07pm

Post #11 of 23 (560 views)
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Thoughts. [In reply to] Can't Post

Gollum’s eyes must be positively incandescent, as Bilbo ‘could see the light of his eyes palely shining even from behind’. Does this seem possible? Yes, yes…it is a fantasy, but could such an occular mutation happen within 500 years (even though The Hobbit doesn’t describe the length of time Gollum has spent below ground)?

Mutations have nothing to do with it. This is a fantasy. Apparently Gollum's shining eyes have evolved from spending many years in the dark -- and the same thing could happen to Bilbo.

Given the mentions of magic rings elsewhere in the Lord of the Rings, and Gandalf’s warning that "There are many magic rings in this world, Bilbo Baggins, and none of them should be used lightly," what exactly do you think these rings did from a magical standpoint? I don’t believe Gandalf was referring to the Rings of Power when he admonished Bilbo, so there must be other such rings about. Perhaps lesser Elven rings?

Yes, even before that mention in LotR, in The Hobbit Gandalf took Bilbo's magic ring for granted, as if it was one of many. What else could they do? The possibilities are endless. Any spell a wizard could cast could presumably be turned into the power of a ring. Wikipedia has an extensive list of magic rings in tales and lore.

‘He must fight. He must stab the foul thing, put its eyes out, kill it. It meant to kill him. No, not a fair fight. He was invisible now. Gollum had no sword. Gollum had not actually threatened to kill him, or tried to yet. And he was miserable, alone, lost. A sudden understanding, a pity mixed with horror…’

In the above paragraph we find Bilbo withholding a stroke of his blade. Strictly from the point of self-preservation, he is within his rights to kill Gollum, or blind him, but Hobbitish sensibility and fair play stay his hand. Is this sequence where Tolkien derives the overarching theme of mercy in the Lord of the Rings?


No, this sequence was added to The Hobbit after LotR.

The text explains that Bilbo leapt over Gollum seven feet forward and three in the air’, and that such a jump was ‘no great leap for a man’.

Have you ever jumped seven feet forward and three feet in the air? I know I haven’t. It must be I have a greater gravitational force.


With a running start I think I am capable of leaping over a three-foot hurdle and landing seven feet away. I have tried the leap, but perhaps not the hurdle. It's not clear whether Bilbo took a running start, but I think he could have taken a few steps before jumping.


Interesting that one’s shadow can be seen while wearing the Ring. Is this somewhat like a photograph negative?

I think this has to do with the holy nature of the Sun, the same nature that confuses Nazgul, turns stone trolls to stone, and sends lesser goblins back into their caves. I don't think it is a matter of physics or any natural law.

Thanks for putting up with the 10th anniversary posts. This is such an important chapter. I do hope those who are distracted will come back to your posts.


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 27 2009, 7:51pm

Post #12 of 23 (559 views)
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Addendum: shadows, tinkling bells, and fairy ceremonies [In reply to] Can't Post

"Tinker Bell," he called softly, after making sure that the children were asleep, "Tink, where are you?" She was in a jug for the moment, and liking it extremely; she had never been in a jug before.

"Oh, do come out of that jug, and tell me, do you know where they put my shadow?"

The loveliest tinkle as of golden bells answered him. It is the fairy language. You ordinary children can never hear it, but if you were to hear it you would know that you had heard it once before.

Tink said that the shadow was in the big box. She meant the chest of drawers, and Peter jumped at the drawers, scattering their contents to the floor with both hands, as kings toss ha'pence to the crowd. In a moment he had recovered his shadow, and in his delight he forgot that he had shut Tinker Bell up in the drawer.

If he thought at all, but I don't believe he ever thought, it was that he and his shadow, when brought near each other, would join like drops of water, and when they did not he was appalled. He tried to stick it on with soap from the bathroom, but that also failed. A shudder passed through Peter, and he sat on the floor and cried.

His sobs woke Wendy, and she sat up in bed. She was not alarmed to see a stranger crying on the nursery floor; she was only pleasantly interested.

"Boy," she said courteously, "why are you crying?"

Peter could be exceeding polite also, having learned the grand manner at fairy ceremonies, and he rose and bowed to her beautifully. She was much pleased, and bowed beautifully to him from the bed.

-Peter Pan and Wendy, 1911

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



GaladrielTX
Tol Eressea


Apr 29 2009, 5:34pm

Post #13 of 23 (538 views)
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I'm an accountant, not a scientist, d*mm*t. :o) [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, yes…it is a fantasy, but could such an ocular mutation happen within 500 years (even though The Hobbit doesn’t describe the length of time Gollum has spent below ground)?

I think modern, Darwin-based science would say no. The mutations that happen in order to make survival more likely in a changed environment have to happen over the course of generations. The animals that happen to be born spontaneously with glowing eyes would survive and pass on this trait to their offspring, while those without the mutation would die before reaching sexual maturity and producing heirs. While we do hear of cases of people’s senses becoming sharper when they lose another sense, I don’t know think there is a marked physical difference in them, such as larger ears or bigger eyes.

This bit of the story reminds me of an H.P. Lovecraft story I recently read, “The Beast in the Cave”. A tourist gets lost in a cave and encounters a man who has been in the cave so long that he has become a physically changed beast. Was Lovecraft a contemporary or a predecessor of Tolkien? Could Tolkien have read Lovecraft’s story and gotten the idea from him or vice versa? Or was this just a common misconception of writers at the time?

~~~~~~~~

The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.



GaladrielTX
Tol Eressea


Apr 29 2009, 5:43pm

Post #14 of 23 (561 views)
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Ugly Troll did track and field in high school (hurdles). [In reply to] Can't Post

I asked him about this:

The text explains that Bilbo leapt over Gollum ‘seven feet forward and three in the air’, and that such a jump was ‘no great leap for a man’.

Have you ever jumped seven feet forward and three feet in the air?


He replied:

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurdling

“'There are two basic hurdle heights: high hurdles and intermediate hurdles. The sprint hurdle races (60 m, 100 m and 110 m) use high hurdles, which are 42 inches in U.S. high school competition for men and 33 inches high for women.

"'Long hurdle races (400 m) use intermediate hurdles, which are 39 inches high for men and 30 inches high for women. Slightly lower heights (generally 3 inches (76 mm) lower) are sometimes used in youth or high school events.

"'One should attack the hurdle by launching at the hurdle from 6-7 feet away (depending on runner's closing speed.)”

"FYI I ran both Intermediate and High hurdle races."


So it sounds like people athletic enough to run hudles could jump seven feet forward and three in the air. (I'm quite sure I could not do this, however.)

~~~~~~~~

The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.



(This post was edited by GaladrielTX on Apr 29 2009, 5:45pm)


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Apr 29 2009, 8:18pm

Post #15 of 23 (533 views)
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You might be surprised... [In reply to] Can't Post

...at what you can do with goblins and/or a hungry troglodyte chasing you.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 2 2009, 1:20am

Post #16 of 23 (513 views)
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A phosphorus-rich diet! [In reply to] Can't Post

UUT, of course, but I like it!

And it makes sense; pink flamingos get their color from the shrimp they eat!

Four Founders
...In honor of
...
......TORN's annual
......Founder's Day Celebration
...........Established 4/26/09


...Corvar, Xoanon, Tehanu, Calisuri.....LARGER IMAGE


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 2 2009, 1:38am

Post #17 of 23 (511 views)
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I'd think shame to stick to Nursie [In reply to] Can't Post

as that Shadow sticks to me!

How long had it been, since Bilbo had had a proper bath, with soap?

Interesting, that notion of the "exceeding politeness" between two creatures raised in different environments!

Four Founders
...In honor of
...
......TORN's annual
......Founder's Day Celebration
...........Established 4/26/09


...Corvar, Xoanon, Tehanu, Calisuri.....LARGER IMAGE


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 2 2009, 1:51am

Post #18 of 23 (532 views)
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Essays in the craft [In reply to] Can't Post

These lesser rings of the Elves were probably single-item enhancers: better gardening skills, or adding a bit of "virtue" to one's weaving, possibly even personal beauty. And it may be that most had short-lived powers, or were weak, or even backfired ("Drat, why does my hithlain keep fraying?").

But they were necessary for the Elves to build up their skill to the point where the Great Rings could finally be constructed.

Thank you for riddling us with questions this (past) week, Morthoron, this has been a fun discussion! (And I bet the Professor always got a secret chuckle out of those Exeter Book riddles...Angelic)

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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Aug 10 2009, 4:32am

Post #19 of 23 (498 views)
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Did Ulmo make the fish jump on Bilbo's feet? [In reply to] Can't Post

So that he would give the right answer?

Something for the next discussion, I suppose.

Thanks, Morthoron!

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sador
Half-elven

Aug 10 2009, 6:44am

Post #20 of 23 (537 views)
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So Gollum was betrayed by fish twice? [In reply to] Can't Post

Here, and in 'The Forbidden Pool'?

Actually, has anyone compared these two chapters? To my surprise, weaver hasn't, when she led the LotR chapter discussion.

"You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you" - Gandalf.


GAndyalf
Valinor

Mar 25 2010, 4:16pm

Post #21 of 23 (485 views)
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How would Boromir know to look? [In reply to] Can't Post

Not everyone would know that the way to find someone with the One Ring on would be to look for any kind of shadow, wavering or not. We have the benefit of what would be considered "great" Ring-lore, but those facts would have been known to very few and among the Fellowship I suspect only Gandalf and Frodo knew those bits of knowledge.

"Even the very wise cannot see all ends."



Dreamdeer
Valinor


Mar 25 2010, 4:22pm

Post #22 of 23 (485 views)
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Good point! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


GAndyalf
Valinor

Mar 25 2010, 4:36pm

Post #23 of 23 (517 views)
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Lovecraft... [In reply to] Can't Post

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_Lovecraft
Tolkien definitely could have read Lovecraft (though I do not recall any citation saying he did) as they most certainly were contemporaries. (smiles) You have eclectic tastes in reading, my Lady!

"Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


 
 

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