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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: The Arena:
Feanor vs Sauron (Third Age)

durthang
The Shire

Apr 22 2009, 10:50pm

Post #1 of 19 (9738 views)
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Feanor vs Sauron (Third Age) Can't Post

Seems as Sauron was defeated by Gil-Galad and Elendil ("Sauron was overthrown by Elendil and Gil-Galad" - appendices ROTK), I think this would be a mighty battle!


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Apr 23 2009, 12:21am

Post #2 of 19 (6579 views)
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Sauron. [In reply to] Can't Post

The Maia would distract Feanor by flashing a pretty jewel in front of his eyes, then get in a killing stab.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


durthang
The Shire

Apr 23 2009, 9:21am

Post #3 of 19 (6632 views)
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ha ha ha [In reply to] Can't Post

Feanor is a shallow, pompous and materialistic piece of work isn't he?


Padster
Bree


Apr 24 2009, 12:37pm

Post #4 of 19 (6542 views)
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Sauron, but Feanor is not the tw@t most seem to make him out to be! [In reply to] Can't Post

So, Feanor was a tw@t, right? Why is that then? Because he was grief stricken at the death of his father? Because he didn’t want to give up his greatest work of art? Because he wanted to act to stop evil, rather than sit on a dilatory backside and do nothing? Just how is any of this shallow or pompous, or indeed materialistic?

Would anyone be annoyed at Da Vinci if he didn’t want to give up the Mona Lisa? Did anyone from a Democratic country have a problem with the actions to defeat Nazi Germany? No and no.

Feanor gets a load of bad press because the Valar say so. Who the hell are they? Dilatory beings with the power to stop the evil, but too weak minded to get off their backsides to do it. And who among us all would not want to seek justice for the murder of their father? Feanor was not perfect, some of his actions were downright stupid, but he does not deserve the bad press he always seems to get. He was a flawed being. So are we all.

You may get the impression that I like Feanor, and you’d be right. Which makes the conflict with Sauron that much more painful for me.

Feanor could not have beaten Sauron, whether or not Sauron possessed the One Ring (hell, certainly NOT if Sauron possessed the One Ring).

I suppose an argument FOR Feanor could focus on Sauron’s defeats and how easy they seemed to be, but then as these were all pre-ordained <yawn> (boring), they can hardly be used as justification. In The Arena, I believe pre-ordained stuff needs stripping out, as it interferes with what should REALLY have happened, given what we know about how dangerous a particular being was MEANT to be.

So let’s talk Sauron:

Sauron gets mauled by Huan
Huan was pre-ordained to only be defeated by the greatest wolf in history, which turned out to be Carcaroth. When Sauron decided to wolf-up and try his luck vs. Luthain and Huan, he was on to a looser from the very beginning. He did however totally overwhelm Luthian, and it was only Huan’s presence that saved the day. As Huan had this rubbish pre-ordained destiny, and in his soul Sauron was no wolf, Sauron was bound to lose. Hence it was not a fair fight.

Sauron is vaped in Numenorean downfall
Hardly fair. Eru’s power destroy’s Numenor, and Sauron goes up with it. Nuff said!

Sauron falls to Gil-galad and Elendil
I can’t recall where I have read it, and I may be getting confused, but I get the impression that when Sauron faced off with these two, Elendil fell rather quickly, but this gave Gil-galad the opportunity to deliver a killing blow with his nasty spear. Sauron was able to retaliate and the fire of his being burned Gil-galad to death. As for Sauron’s power level at this point, well I think it is debatable that he had fully recovered from his disembodiment after Numenor’s fall. After all it was only 122 years from Numenor’s destruction to the Last Alliance’s victory. Maybe Sauron had recovered all his personal power (particularly with the aid of his ring), and maybe not. Either way, I think it is debatable that he was as potent as he could have been.

And so to Feanor. Well, not being a Maiar, he could only die once really. Whilst the Eldar could be re-embodied, they couldn’t do it on their own, and Feanor certainly isn’t getting let out until the world changes. So we have only one death to work with. Oh but what a death!

When he arrived in Middle-earth, Feanor must have slaughtered loads of Orcs. Who cares! It’s his Balrog bashing that makes his name. I am constantly amazed that the feat of being able to stand up against multiple Balrogs, and not be immediately zapped, is not recognised for what it is, and that is the most amazing act of personal power in the history of Middle-earth. The only other occasion was when Morgoth called out for help after having got back to Middle-earth and having destroyed the Trees in Valinor. His cry, as Ungoliant’s attack on him, called the seven Balrogs to arms, who then drove off Ungoliant with their whips. So Ungoliant, a being capable of killing Morgoth, fled from the Balrogs, who Feanor fought, without being immediately killed.

Quite stunning in my opinion.

Sorry to bore you but, I’m not finished with other reasons and evidence (that I think are relevant anyway). Whenever anyone fought a Balrog, it was not without a cost. Ecthelion, Glorfindel and Gandalf the Grey all killed Balrogs, but all did so at the cost of their own lives. That’s the problem with Balrogs, although they could be defeated, it was always at a huge cost. I would suggest that Ecthelion and Glorfindel’s defeat of their Balrogs, were lucky victories, and again, boringly, pre-ordained, particularly the Glorfindel victory. Gandalf the Grey’s fight was far more representative of the kind of power level a Balrog was on. Their fight took ELEVEN days until Gandalf managed to get the upper hand, so they MUST have been pretty damn evenly matched.

However, what about them Sauron and Feanor hacking it out together?

Well considering all of the above, I think Feanor was one of the few who could have fought a Balrog and killed it without dying himself, even though it would be a close run thing. That was why he could face multiple Balrogs, and not get killed straight away.

Sauron, however, was more powerful than even a Balrog. IF from the above we accept that Gandalf the Grey was about the same as a Balrog, and we then consider the following statement from Mr T in one of his letters, that “…Sauron was the same kind of being as Saruman and Gandalf, but of a far higher order…” (may not be word perfect, but it says what Mr T said), then by inference, Sauron was much more powerful than Feanor too.

Hence, much as it pains me (as well as you if you have manage to get through this stupidly long post), Sauron beats Feanor, but Feanor gets an A+ for effort and probably knocks Sauron about enough for him to consider himself lucky to get away without ANOTHER disembodiment.

Cheers



Padster


Henoluin Elsilim
Rivendell


Apr 24 2009, 6:43pm

Post #5 of 19 (6700 views)
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Wow. I can see [In reply to] Can't Post

that you have put a lot of thought into this....Smile

First, let me go ahead and get this out of the way: Sauron would win. No doubt about it.

Now, you said:

Quote
So, Feanor was a tw@t, right? Why is that then? Because he was grief stricken at the death of his father? Because he didn’t want to give up his greatest work of art? Because he wanted to act to stop evil, rather than sit on a dilatory backside and do nothing? Just how is any of this shallow or pompous, or indeed materialistic?


Feanor wanted his Jewels back. That was his reason for defying the Valar and for leaving Valinor. It wasn't to get revege for his fathers death, it was to get revenge on Morgoth for stealing the things that Feanor loved most, and to take those things back. If seeking revenge for his father's death had been the case, then he would have sworn an oath to avenge his father or die in the attempt, not to get the Sil's back or die in the attempt.

Feanor caused alot of unnecessary pain and trouble to others. He slew his own people simply because they refused to give him their ships - which, by the way, happened to be THEIR most prized posession, which Feanor not only stole, but he killed them for (which is exactly what Morgoth did to get the Sil's, you'll note.) I'm not saying Feanor was just as bad as Morgoth, but you have to admit, he didn't handle the situation well.

Then, after the Kinslaying, Feanor took the ships and his family and friends, and left everyone else behind to die on the ice without so much as a hint of regret.
I'm sorry, but in my opinion Feanor was arrogent, selfish, and shallow. He was the greatest of his people at the time, and he knew it, and he let it go to his head. His lust and greed for the Silmarill's caused more pain and death than they were worth.

~ Henoluin ~

Lord of the Rings

James McAvoy for Bilbo!
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy, and good with ketchup


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Apr 25 2009, 5:37am

Post #6 of 19 (6562 views)
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Feanor: Complex [In reply to] Can't Post

Everything you say is true, and anyone who dismisses Feanor lightly has oversimplified. Not to say I'd be his cheerleader, personally. I could darn near forgive the rascal everything except for his final madness, compelling his sons to make a vow that he knows will destroy them all. That was a cruel and senseless piece of pride, and to do this to his own children is unforgiveable.

Having said that, we need to factor madness into the picture. I think Feanor could defeat Sauron. Sauron is terribly logical, and calculates carefully every reasonable move that his opponents could make. So a pair of footsore little hobbits overthrow him by doing something so whacked that he never saw it coming. Feanor would be still more unpredictable. All the power in the world ain't worth diddly-squat when you're blindsided.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


Padster
Bree


Apr 26 2009, 8:03am

Post #7 of 19 (6471 views)
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As I said Feanor IS a bit of a t... [In reply to] Can't Post

...w@t.

But I would still maintain that it was the death of his father that tipped him over the edge in terms of making his rebellion against the dilatory Valar inevitable, and the recovery of the Silmarils then became the key excuse to maintain the momentum. Indeed Finwe's death made this inevitable on two fronts, firstly because Feanor thought so much of him:

The Silmarillion
Chapter 9 - Of the Flight of the Noldor
...Then Fëanor ran from the Ring of Doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?

And also because Finwe was then no longer around to restrain and influence his sons rage.

The above text outs beyond any doubt that Feanor held his father higher than the Silmarils. But with his father dead, it does seem that his next love was the Silmarils, which is very perverse, as I could not think of anything I could make that could come ANYWHERE close to my love for my children. As I said, Feanor was a bit of a.......

Feanor's oath is an example of how he had clearly been tipped over the edge by the events that had taken place. It is commented on the he had become 'fey' a number of times. He had clearly gone partially insane, and who blames the insane for their actions, many of which they have no or little control over. Not only can they not be blamed, but it would be grossly unfair to do so. Insanity IS to easy and convenient an excuse for Feanor's obviously evil actions once the rebellion had begun, but it is a factor that one needs to consider.

His greatest crime, on a personal level, was the continuance of the oath, even upon his death. Having seen the towers of Thangorodrim, he KNEW that ALL the power of the Noldor could not hope to bring them down, so he should have released his children then from the oath. Maybe they would then, STILL, have pursued the Silmarils, but they would have done so in a much more measured manner, with the characters of Maedhros and Maglor being the ones who drove their actions (by far the two most rational of the sons of Feanor). There would have been no more Kinslayings, and maybe, just maybe, the Union of Maedhros would have worked.

Yes Feanor was selfish, yes he was arrogant, but I don't think him as shallow. He was a very profound and deep character and too easy a target for a readers ire, most of is fair, but not an inconsiderable amount unfair once one attempts to view what made him who he was in an objective light.

Cheers


Padster


durthang
The Shire

Apr 29 2009, 11:41pm

Post #8 of 19 (6576 views)
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Padster... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Perhaps it might be good to take things with a pinch of salt in future; of COURSE Feanor is an incredibly complex character and can't be dismissed in a single line of derogatory comment, but the point is, it was just a offhand joke which obviously a lot of people understand.

I would hate to think that everytime I try and have a little fun on here, I'm met with a 50 page essay on why i'm incorrect. I'm on my 12th read through The Sil and I agree with a lot of what you're saying. However I still maintain that Feanor LOVES DEM JOOLS TOO MUCH!


Padster
Bree


Apr 30 2009, 1:46pm

Post #9 of 19 (6481 views)
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I have... [In reply to] Can't Post

...been given expansive opinions, supported with loads of stuff, on this site for ages, long before the revamp which saw all my old posts vanish. Just the way I am. A fight was mooted, my opinion was given. Nuff said.

Cheers


Padster


Gurtholfin
Bree

May 1 2009, 7:02pm

Post #10 of 19 (6659 views)
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Hmmmmmm.... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
When he arrived in Middle-earth, Feanor must have slaughtered loads of Orcs. Who cares! It’s his Balrog bashing that makes his name. I am constantly amazed that the feat of being able to stand up against multiple Balrogs, and not be immediately zapped, is not recognised for what it is, and that is the most amazing act of personal power in the history of Middle-earth. The only other occasion was when Morgoth called out for help after having got back to Middle-earth and having destroyed the Trees in Valinor. His cry, as Ungoliant’s attack on him, called the seven Balrogs to arms, who then drove off Ungoliant with their whips. So Ungoliant, a being capable of killing Morgoth, fled from the Balrogs, who Feanor fought, without being immediately killed.

Quite stunning in my opinion.


Isn't it quite possible that Feanor's good fight was pre-ordained also? I mean, it makes for a much more glorious end. You don't like it in some instances, but you like it here?

It makes no sense in the Tolkien world that any mortal(able to be killed) being could stand against a GROUP of Balrogs. Unless of course that Feanor was ten times a warrior than any other to ever have existed. I didn't get THAT impression from reading the Sil and even then.

Third Age Sauron would easily defeat any human or elf that ever existed. He was a Maia spirit of the highest order.

As a side, I don't remember ever getting the impression that Elendil and Gil defeated Sauron. I thought that He easily crushed them and that all was to be lost if not for Izzy's lucky swing.

And finally, I don't believe that Feanor is misunderstood. He was shallow and self destructive and selfish enough to take others along on the DOOM parade.


Padster
Bree


May 5 2009, 8:25am

Post #11 of 19 (6563 views)
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Feanor and Gil-galad [In reply to] Can't Post

Feanor's fight preordained? I don't think so. Think of the 'preordained' stuff in LOTR, like 'no man' killing the Witch-King, or Huan speaking thrice before dying. This sort of stuff was known long before it happened. That's why it was preordained, or fated to be so.

The only thing I can think of regards Feanor that has a preordained feel to it was his own observation that he knew before his death that the Noldor could not beat Morgoth. And for having that knowledge and still requiring his children to keep to their oath, for that reason, if for no other, he was an @rse.

As for Gil-galad and Elendil, they very much DID kill Sauron, and Isildur only cut the One Ring from Sauron's dead body.


Code
  
THE SILMARILLION
But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth;
and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain,
and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also
was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the
Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own.

LETTERS
131 To Milton Waldman
The Second Age ends with the Last Alliance (of Elves and Men), and the
great siege of Mordor. It ends with the overthrow of Sauron and
destruction of the second visible incarnation of evil. But at a cost,
and with one disastrous mistake. Gil-galad and Elendil are slain in the
act of slaying Sauron. Isildur, Elendil's son, cuts the ring from
Sauron's hand, and his power departs, and his spirit flees into the
shadows.

THE LORD OF THE RINGS
The Shadow of the Past

Gandalf's words...
"It was Gil-galad, Elven-king and Elendil of Westernesse who overthrew
Sauron, though they themselves perished in the deed; and Isildur Elendil's
son cut the Ring from Sauron's hand and took it for his own."

The Council of Elrond
Elrond's words...


"But few marked what Isildur did. He alone stood by his father in that last
mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Cirdan stood, and I."

Isildur's Letter
Gandalf's words...
"...the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and
so Gil-galad was destroyed..."



If nothing else, then Tolkien's own words "Gil-galad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron." is enough. And Isildur's commentary, as related in The Council of Elrond, of how the heat of Sauron's body destroyed Gil-galad gives some clue as to certain key events of the combat. How specifically Sauron's physical form was damaged enough to be slain is not specific and anything said on this matter would be pure speculation, but one would surmise that both Elendil and Gil-galad delivered enough blows with their dread weapons, whilst Sauron pummelled them a few times, to kill the dark lord. Giving Isildur the easy task of taking the ring of Sauron.

Certainly nothing so dumb as that which was presented in the film could have happened.

Cheers


Padster


cloudland
Bree


May 6 2009, 2:46pm

Post #12 of 19 (6558 views)
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Good point [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Having said that, we need to factor madness into the picture.



Dreamdear I too, wondered about Feanor's ability to think straight. I'd thought perhaps he had been a bit 'touched' whilst doing all those deplorable things to his people and was driven so hard for one purpose as to curse the entire Noldor nation. But would he be irrational in battle, for it seems to me regardless of what steps he took they would all lead to confrontation. I understand the hobbits were not irrational to do what they had done, but of course it was not what Sauron had expected. My guess (and that's all was can ever do with these discussions really) is that Feanor would if only be lucky enough to do something clever to defeat Sauron because that would be his only defense.

cloudland (kloud'land'), n. 1. the sky. 2. a region of daydreams, imaginations, etc.; dreamland.


Vangalad
Lorien


May 6 2009, 10:00pm

Post #13 of 19 (6536 views)
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Fall of Sauron [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Quote
As for Gil-galad and Elendil, they very much DID kill Sauron, and Isildur only cut the One Ring from Sauron's dead body.


Tolkien wrote that Elendil and Gil-Galad fought Sauron in a deadly combat.In the end Sauron slays both of his opponents but he is wounded too and falls down..he is not killed.Then Isildur grabs Narsil and cuts his ring finger ,so Sauron's body is destroyed and his spirit fleds.


Padster
Bree


May 7 2009, 3:17pm

Post #14 of 19 (6650 views)
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Really... [In reply to] Can't Post

...where does it say that? That Sauron was only wounded by Gil-galad and Elendil, that Sauron fell down, and that Sauron was finished off specifically by Isildur cutting off the One Ring?

Cheers


Padster


Vangalad
Lorien


May 7 2009, 10:00pm

Post #15 of 19 (6563 views)
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Its in Lotr and the Silmarillion... [In reply to] Can't Post

and you already have posted some parts.

Quote
THE SILMARILLION
But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth;
and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain,
and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also
was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the
Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own.

Elendil and Gil-Galad were slain and Sauron falls down ,then Isildur cuts the ring from his finger...Why should Isildur cut Sauron's finger with the shards of Narsil if Sauron was already dead?he could have just pulled out the ring from the finger.
I dont know if Tolkien meant that Sauron was killed by the two kings...but from my point of view (and i think its open for speculation) the final hit came from Isildur who separated Sauron from the ring and ended his only power that he had got left.


Padster
Bree


May 8 2009, 8:03am

Post #16 of 19 (6629 views)
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No, your interpretation is not correct... [In reply to] Can't Post

...specifically as there is nothing to interpret when one considers all the text available on the subject.

In Tolkien's OWN words (as opposed to the unauthorised The Silmarillion) of:


Code
  
LETTERS
=======
131 To Milton Waldman
=====================
The Second Age ends with the Last Alliance (of Elves and Men), and the
great siege of Mordor. It ends with the overthrow of Sauron and
destruction of the second visible incarnation of evil. But at a cost,
and with one disastrous mistake. Gil-galad and Elendil are slain in the
act of slaying Sauron. Isildur, Elendil's son, cuts the ring from
Sauron's hand, and his power departs, and his spirit flees into the
shadows.



This is beyond ANY doubt, surely. Gil-galad and Elendil SLAY Sauron, but are slain themselves. Isildur then cuts the ring from Sauron's hand. Why cut it away rather than tak it off? Because taking it off would mean handling Sauron's HOT body, which may well have burnt Isildur himself. Instead, Isildur CUT the Ring off, which then allowed him to recover it without having to touch Sauron's body.

And the above text does not conflict with that in The Silmarillion, or the other pieces I quoted in an earlier post. The above text simply gives greater clarity.

Seems pretty clear cut to me, if you'll forgive the pun.

Cheers


Padster


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

May 17 2009, 1:10am

Post #17 of 19 (6622 views)
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I'd Take...... [In reply to] Can't Post

Feanor vs Sauron (Third Age)

I'd take Sauron since Feanor is dead. Laugh


Monkeysee
Registered User

May 21 2009, 7:47am

Post #18 of 19 (10385 views)
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Isildur did what? [In reply to] Can't Post

So, essentially, Isildur did nothing but cut the ring off of a dead feller's hand? Why the celebration of this guy then? I see now why the movie chose to 'rewrite' the book here. It would make Isildur seem invaliant and greedy to have the power of the ring especially after not engaging directly with Sauron, letting his pop's do the work.


I get that oversimplification of Feanor is a risk here. Feanor was no better than Sauron in his deeds. He slew his own folks and stole their most treasured possesions, their boats, then left those who would go with him, burned his ships, forcing his loyal followers to go through the 'grinding ice' (Helcaraxe?). In fact, many of Feanor's deeds mirror the same awfulness of Sauron's. So when Sauron sent his whispers around, how much impact did it make on Feanor? A lot, I would argue, so much that he became an overpossesive megalomaniac with no regard for anyone but himself and his jewels. He was tempered toward that direction anyway it seems from the Sil.

Those damn jewels never were his anyways. They got their beauty and light from the 2 trees, he should have offered them up so the trees could have been brought back. Eventually the Valinoreans would've gone after Melkor, although without the aero-nautical assistance fighting off the dragons would they have won?

I guess none of that matters for without Feanor's protagonism the story of middle earth wouldn't have been so grand and all those amazing deeds, standing up to multiple balrog's include would never have been done.

Lastly, could Feanor beat Sauron? It depends on when you're talking about. When Feanor first came with the light of Valinor in his eyes vs. the Sauron of Mirkwood? I think so. But the Sauron of strength nope. Of course we all know that killing his 'body' does nothing unless the ring is destroyed with it. Regardless, its a fight worth thinking about.

Sorry this reply rambles so badly.


AncalagontheBlack
Rohan

Jul 2 2013, 6:44pm

Post #19 of 19 (4455 views)
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feanor [In reply to] Can't Post

 

 
 

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