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Advising Elf
Rohan


Apr 17 2007, 5:08pm

Post #26 of 152 (152 views)
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Wholeheartedly agree with that. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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linkin-artelf
Lorien


Apr 17 2007, 5:09pm

Post #27 of 152 (176 views)
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That wording in article is so biased [In reply to] Can't Post

it immediately makes me question the authenticity and relevence of those statistics. With words like 'draconian measures' in the intro you can see right away which way the writer is leaning and reading through it briefly I feel the author has skewed the information and used it poorly to prove his point. Yes, the gun registry endeavor in Canada was a financial fiasco but that does not directly equate with gun control being a faulty endeavor. Just cause something wasn't done right doesn't mean it was the wrong thing to do.
If that article shows me anything it's that the academic rigor at Simon Frazer is woefully lacking and they need some better professors.

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"I walk along the shore and I gaze
At the light that radiates down
Will it travel forth to you
Far across this shimmering sea?"
formerly linkinparkelf


Owlyross
Rohan


Apr 17 2007, 5:11pm

Post #28 of 152 (171 views)
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I don't want to start a gun control debate [In reply to] Can't Post

Only to say that if the general public were not allowed to have guns, incidents like this would be very rare indeed.

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Benjamin Franklin
The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think.
Horace Walpole (1717 - 1797)


linkin-artelf
Lorien


Apr 17 2007, 5:18pm

Post #29 of 152 (174 views)
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And that demonstrates two things [In reply to] Can't Post

The police guns weren't able to prevent the further killings, so much for an armed defense.
The killer would not have been able to continue on a such a killing rampage without HIS gun.
No statistics can change those facts.

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"I walk along the shore and I gaze
At the light that radiates down
Will it travel forth to you
Far across this shimmering sea?"
formerly linkinparkelf


FarFromHome
Valinor


Apr 17 2007, 5:21pm

Post #30 of 152 (182 views)
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The Fraser Institute [In reply to] Can't Post

is a very right-wing organization in Canada, not so very far in its thinking from the NRA in America. They fought against Canada's attempts to regulate guns, and I believe they were relatively successful, despite the fact that most of us in Eastern Canada were heavily in favour of the changes. Still, Canada does have fairly strict gun laws, and despite the largely undefended border with the US, has a much lower rate of gun death.

But the Fraser Institute's whole argument is a red herring in any case. The hugely bloated gun-death statistics in the US aren't caused by criminals - criminals have guns in every country. The massively higher death-rate in the US is caused by ordinary people shooting each other - by accident, in anger, mostly unpremeditated, and probably regretted almost instantly. If there had been no gun, there would have been no death.

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


RosieLass
Valinor


Apr 17 2007, 5:23pm

Post #31 of 152 (155 views)
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A horrible situation. [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't have television access this week, so the only news I get is when I happen to check a news website. I was stunned yesterday to find the death toll increasing so alarmingly every time I checked.

I'm also frustrated that people are so quick to rush to judgment; that if guns were banned this wouldn't have happened, or it's the cops' fault because they're useless, or even taking digs at the President for his comments (that didn't happen here but other places I've been reading).

Bad things happened at VT yesterday, and since none of us was there, none of us can possibly understand why it happened or make judgments about what should have been done differently.

This writing business. Pencils and what-not. Over-rated, if you ask me. Silly stuff. Nothing in it.

--Eeyore

http://mallika.vox.com/


RosieLass
Valinor


Apr 17 2007, 5:25pm

Post #32 of 152 (161 views)
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Not to drag this off on a tangent [In reply to] Can't Post

but that sounds like a good argument for banning alcohol. Or cars. Or alcohol and cars. More people are killed by drunk driving than by guns, after all.

This writing business. Pencils and what-not. Over-rated, if you ask me. Silly stuff. Nothing in it.

--Eeyore

http://mallika.vox.com/


Advising Elf
Rohan


Apr 17 2007, 5:31pm

Post #33 of 152 (189 views)
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It was the police that didn't stop the killing... [In reply to] Can't Post

not their guns. Guns are inanimate objects. The point was that there was not a proper response to the situation. If there had been, it's more likely that the *police* would have used their guns to stop they killer.

Also, that the killer wouldn't have gone on a rampage without a gun is pure conjecture. He could have just as easily walked around stabbing people, or driven around in his car and run over people. Crazy people do crazy things. If he hadn't had access to a gun, it is possible, and likely, that he would have chosen another way to kill people.

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FarFromHome
Valinor


Apr 17 2007, 5:32pm

Post #34 of 152 (162 views)
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Well, alcohol and cars are banned [In reply to] Can't Post

(in combination). And you are certainly right that if cars were banned, many people's lives would be saved. It's the same situation of a dangerous piece of technology in the hands of a very large number of people, some of whom, statistically, are bound to be irresponsible and end up killing someone. But at least cars are regulated - you have to pass a test, carry a license with your name and address on it, prove that you are physically and mentally fit to drive. Even that much regulation would be a big step forward for guns, wouldn't it?

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


Advising Elf
Rohan


Apr 17 2007, 5:34pm

Post #35 of 152 (162 views)
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That's no tangent. MADD reports [In reply to] Can't Post

for 2005 that over 43,000 people were killed in traffic accidents, over 16,000 alcohol related. It is a very relevant statistic because nobody gets up in arms about traffic deaths like they do gun deaths, even though it's a much bigger problem.

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RosieLass
Valinor


Apr 17 2007, 5:36pm

Post #36 of 152 (161 views)
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In fact [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't have a problem with some regulation of guns. There are some people who don't have any business owning guns. (Most of them, however, would get them anyway, even if they weren't allowed to, so it's rather a moot point.)

It's just the whole "BAN 'EM ALL!!!" screeching that comes out every time there's an incident like this that drives me crazy.

This writing business. Pencils and what-not. Over-rated, if you ask me. Silly stuff. Nothing in it.

--Eeyore

http://mallika.vox.com/


linkin-artelf
Lorien


Apr 17 2007, 5:37pm

Post #37 of 152 (158 views)
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The difference lies in the intended use [In reply to] Can't Post

of a gun versus alcohol or cars. The sole intended use of a gun is to inflict physical harm. It is designed as a weapon, a very good weapon and so should be regulated.
As for cars killing people, I heard a weird stastitic on the radio this morning. Apparently more people are killed by donkeys than by cars in the world. Crazy Ok, we're really off on a tangent now.

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"I walk along the shore and I gaze
At the light that radiates down
Will it travel forth to you
Far across this shimmering sea?"
formerly linkinparkelf


Advising Elf
Rohan


Apr 17 2007, 5:38pm

Post #38 of 152 (154 views)
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I did rush in my choice of references. [In reply to] Can't Post

I had read a study about the crime rate in England after the gun ban (I know someone who's daughter was kidnapped by armed home-invaders in England after the ban) and I just grabbed that one. It's not the only one out there, though.

Yahoo!Group with good stuff to download:
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Advising Elf
Rohan


Apr 17 2007, 5:39pm

Post #39 of 152 (154 views)
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Why don't we ban crime instead of guns? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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Advising Elf
Rohan


Apr 17 2007, 5:41pm

Post #40 of 152 (136 views)
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Maybe the U.N. should start a donkey safety course. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 17 2007, 5:43pm

Post #41 of 152 (185 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, I certainly hope for America's sake that there's never a situation where the populace will have to defend itself with firearms against the government.

Already happened. Blacks in the South during the early and mid 20th century depended on the threat of "the shotgun behind the door" to keep from getting dragged out of their beds and lynched by the government. As Ida B. Wells, a co-founder of the NAACP remarked, "The Remington rifle should have a place of honor in every black home."

I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


RosieLass
Valinor


Apr 17 2007, 5:44pm

Post #42 of 152 (180 views)
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I don't know if you're joking, AE... [In reply to] Can't Post

...or if you're really upset, but this comment isn't really logical. Crime is banned. That's why it's crime.

This writing business. Pencils and what-not. Over-rated, if you ask me. Silly stuff. Nothing in it.

--Eeyore

http://mallika.vox.com/


linkin-artelf
Lorien


Apr 17 2007, 5:44pm

Post #43 of 152 (162 views)
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Right [In reply to] Can't Post

and people would have just stood still while he went about stabbing or running them over.
Of course if someone wants to kill a lot of people they can find a way to, but why make it easier for them?
As for the police response not being proper, I don't think we can fairly say that without knowking all the facts. It's very likely that on such a large campus the killer could have hidden easily and with only two victims in the first shootings it may have been perceived to be non-random and over with.

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
"I walk along the shore and I gaze
At the light that radiates down
Will it travel forth to you
Far across this shimmering sea?"
formerly linkinparkelf


L. Ron Halfelven
Grey Havens


Apr 17 2007, 5:58pm

Post #44 of 152 (143 views)
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That's a decidedly peculiar way of not starting a debate./ [In reply to] Can't Post



FarFromHome
Valinor


Apr 17 2007, 6:08pm

Post #45 of 152 (173 views)
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I sometimes forget [In reply to] Can't Post

what a scary place America can be.

Actually, my husband and two Irish colleagues were in Virginia last week (at Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond). After various meetings, they each independently decided to walk back to the hotel half a mile or so away, rather than waiting for the limo. When they got back to the hotel, the concierge seemed surprised and a little concerned that they hadn't waited for the limo. At the time, they thought she was just surprised at the Irish habit of walking rather than driving whenever they can. Now my husband's wondering if the streets they walked through (which he said seemed fine) weren't considered safe.

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


GaladrielTX
Tol Eressea


Apr 17 2007, 6:14pm

Post #46 of 152 (168 views)
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You have only to look at Washington, D.C., [In reply to] Can't Post

where gun control laws are among the strictest in the country, to see how true your last paragraph is. I never realized till I lived in other cities how common murders were in D.C. compared to the rest of the country.

The problem with outlawing guns, just like outlawing drugs and abortions, is that people are going to be able to get them, anyway. They're just going to have to deal with criminals to do it. I know that's not the case in the U.K., but I just don't see that kind of system working here.

~~~~~~~~

I used to be GaladrielTX, but it's springtime and I'm shedding.



GaladrielTX
Tol Eressea


Apr 17 2007, 6:15pm

Post #47 of 152 (322 views)
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BTW, in this thread, [In reply to] Can't Post

why do people keep referring to Virginia Tech as VT?

Isnít it VPI (Virginia Polytechnic Institute), or has that changed?

~~~~~~~~

I used to be GaladrielTX, but it's springtime and I'm shedding.



Advising Elf
Rohan


Apr 17 2007, 6:16pm

Post #48 of 152 (152 views)
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It's a joke that isn't a joke. [In reply to] Can't Post

BTW, I am not making fun of you, I agree with you.

The point is: *banning* things doesn't work. It usually just creates a black market.

Prohibition is a shining example of the results of banning something. It may have stopped some people from drinking, but it effectively made criminals out of others and poured millions of dollars into the pockets of organized crime.

Yahoo!Group with good stuff to download:
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GaladrielTX
Tol Eressea


Apr 17 2007, 6:19pm

Post #49 of 152 (197 views)
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Coincidentally, I'm 42. [In reply to] Can't Post

I've never worried about getting shot (except when I was at a protest once and armed police officers were called in). Iíve seen one gun IRL (not counting those carried by police officers). It was owned by a boyfriend of mine who was being treated for bipolar disorder and who, according to the law, shouldnít have had it. So much for laws being a simple solution.

It's not the laws. I suspect has something to do with the culture.

~~~~~~~~

I used to be GaladrielTX, but it's springtime and I'm shedding.



Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 17 2007, 6:20pm

Post #50 of 152 (169 views)
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That's funny. [In reply to] Can't Post

Way back in the 70s, when I was staying at a nice little hotel in Westminster the night clerk expressed similar concerned astonishment after I returned from a very late evening walk through Soho.

I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.

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