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Menelwyn
Rohan
Apr 8 2009, 9:24pm
Post #1 of 19
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**A Short Rest**--Part 4, The Last Homely House
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Now I want to turn our attention to Rivendell itself. I led the discussion on the “Many Meetings” chapter of LOTR a while back, and I’m going to revisit a couple of my questions from that one deliberately; that’s one of the reasons I chose this chapter.
As they approach the house of Elrond, Gandalf more or less tells the elves to be quiet, saying that “valleys have ears.”
What does he mean by this? Does he actually suspect spies here or something? Or does he just want those silly elves to shut up?
The narrator tells us that he is going to pass over a lot of what happened in Rivendell for the following reason: “It is a strange thing, but things that are good to have and days that are good to spend are soon told about, and not much to listen to; while things that are uncomfortable, palpitating, and even gruesome, may make a good tale, and take a deal of telling anyway.”
Do you agree with him? Is this one of the reasons that this is an unpopular chapter?
The description we are given here of Rivendell is actually quoted directly in LOTR, that it was perfect, “whether you liked food, or sleep, or work, or story-telling, or singing or just sitting and thinking best, or a pleasant mixture of them all.”
Is this a good description? Does it appeal to children or more to adults? What is it about Rivendell that makes so many of us choose it as a place in Middle-earth that we would most want to live (often second only to the Shire in polls)?
When you read The Hobbit (as opposed to LOTR), do you envision Rivendell more as a single house, or as a settlement or village with many buildings? Do you envision the same thing when you read LOTR?
How, if at all, should the movie-makers for The Hobbit movie make Rivendell different from how it appeared in the LOTR movies?
In Letter #131, Tolkien says that Elrond’s house “represents Lore—the preservation in reverent memory of all tradition concerning the good, wise, and beautiful. It is not a scene of action but of reflection. Thus it is a place visited on the way to all deeds, or ‘adventures’.”
Is this a valid description of the Rivendell we visit in The Hobbit, or is this more influenced by LOTR (which Tolkien had written by the time of this letter)? Is a place of reflection necessary on all adventures? If so, why?
We also now meet Elrond, an “elf-friend”, descended from both elves and men, “as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer.”
Compare this introduction to how he is introduced in LOTR. Which do you like better? What differences are conveyed in the two descriptions? What do you think of the “elf-friend” issue (as opposed to what Elrond later became in Tolkien’s writings)?
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batik
Tol Eressea
Apr 9 2009, 12:32am
Post #2 of 19
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Do you agree with him? Is this one of the reasons that this is an unpopular chapter?
The narrator's statement reminds me the daily news (TV, paper, etc.)--the "bad" being reported over and over; the "good" given 10 seconds/sentences. Wasn't something similar said about what happened later (LOTR-later)in Lothlorien?
Is this a good description? Does it appeal to children or more to adults? What is it about Rivendell that makes so many of us choose it as a place in Middle-earth that we would most want to live (often second only to the Shire in polls)?
Hmmm...I guess the "attractions" of Rivendell are somewhat described--sort of like an advertisement for a spa or maybe an amusement park? I suppose it's appeal is measured by what attracts the listener/reader.
When you read The Hobbit (as opposed to LOTR), do you envision Rivendell more as a single house, or as a settlement or village with many buildings? Do you envision the same thing when you read LOTR? On my first reading--for some reason I pictured Elrond's *home* being separated from Rivendell (with grounds and buildings) by a little distance (where on earth did that thought come from???-did I misread and see Last Lonely House  ). Now, (with plently of film-influence) I see Rivendell as home of the Elves.
How, if at all, should the movie-makers for The Hobbit movie make Rivendell different from how it appeared in the LOTR movies?
Well now, since we don't get a physical description that really opposes what we saw in the films--does anything have to be different?
Is this a valid description of the Rivendell we visit in The Hobbit, or is this more influenced by LOTR (which Tolkien had written by the time of this letter)? Is a place of reflection necessary on all adventures? If so, why?
It seems to apply to either. Bilbo and Co. do get a glimpse of, at least, the *wise* via Elrond's knowledge of the weapons and moon letters. The group gets to relax, regroup, and restock.
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Laerasëa
Tol Eressea
Apr 9 2009, 3:09am
Post #3 of 19
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Do you agree with him? Is this one of the reasons that this is an unpopular chapter?
Well, here's what I think about this. I think that people enjoy reading about beautiful things. When I first read The Hobbit, I did actually want more description of Rivendell and what went on in it. But, the reason that I first picked up The Hobbit was that I wanted a fun adventure story with action, and if nothing bad happened, I wouldn't want to read it. Even more, it's the uncomfortable/palpatating/greusome characters that really make the story. One of everybody's favorite (and one of the most fascinating, imo!) is Gollum. Now, how disturbing is it that we have a character who's five hundred years old because he's been obsessing over a Ring of evil, so that he becomes a monster to everyone else, living in a cave, and talking to himself or the Ring (we barely know what). Most of us, I think, can agree that Gollum's fate is a sad one. But look at how much we talk about him! People have asked all sorts of questions about him-- hypothetical situation questions, psychological questions, all sorts of analysis questions. And really, any good story that we read is about the misfortune(s) of at least one other person.
Similarly, it could also be that if Tolkien had gone on to describe the events that take place Rivendell, he would have to have described it in the same language that he uses in the rest of the book, and if there are too many events to describe, then it would become a bit more dull for a child to read. I'm actually wondering now if he'd written The Hobbit for a different age group, if he would have put a lot more of what went on in Rivendell.
Anyway, so theoretically, I do agree with him. However, I would certainly have enjoyed some more description.
Is this a good description? Does it appeal to children or more to adults?
No, it appeals to everyone equally, I think. Adults sometimes seem to be more hesitant to say things like that (or agree with them), but that's what everyone wants. It's a haven.
What is it about Rivendell that makes so many of us choose it as a place in Middle-earth that we would most want to live (often second only to the Shire in polls)?
What appeals to people is the sort of peaceful grandeur of it. I think the only reason people put the Shire first is that the Shire is more simple-- if you lived in Rivendell, you'd be surrounded by a bunch of immortals, which maybe sounds a bit intimidating. The Shire is just hobbity. Anyway, so Rivendell appeals to any age, not just children (in fact, I might even say it might appeal more to adults, because of the tranquility factor, but he does a good enough job with the description to work for any age).
********************************
Traveling Journal Official Site
The journal is in Canada!!!
Kurmudginz of the wrld unite!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-Starling
Innocence is precious. Trees are precious. Families are precious. Clean water is precious. Light is precious. Rulers and Rules and Rings of Power are not precious.
-Curious
It’s always amazing how utterly stupid Evil can be.
-Darkstone
Honest, Altaira! I was just telling Auntie D how to make a possessive out of the name 'a.s.'! Really, truly!
-a.s.
I got to teach contrasts of LOTR elves vs. Santa Claus and Harry Potter elves in class this week. People were forgetting that Dobby was an elf. Probably a good thing.
-Menelwyn
Beware of geeks, for they are testy and articulate!
-gramma
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Apr 9 2009, 5:24am
Post #4 of 19
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As they approach the house of Elrond, Gandalf more or less tells the elves to be quiet, saying that “valleys have ears.”
What does he mean by this? Does he actually suspect spies here or something? Or does he just want those silly elves to shut up?
Gandalf always errs on the side of caution. Maybe nothing evil can enter that Valley, but naive creatures can leave the valley telling tales.
The narrator tells us that he is going to pass over a lot of what happened in Rivendell for the following reason: “It is a strange thing, but things that are good to have and days that are good to spend are soon told about, and not much to listen to; while things that are uncomfortable, palpitating, and even gruesome, may make a good tale, and take a deal of telling anyway.”
Do you agree with him? Is this one of the reasons that this is an unpopular chapter?
Yes. It is also my argument that "escapist" stories really aren't. If we read only for escapism, we'd love stories about pleasant days better than adventures. But it's the adventures, with all of their hardships, that strengthen us to face the hardships of our lives.
The description we are given here of Rivendell is actually quoted directly in LOTR, that it was perfect, “whether you liked food, or sleep, or work, or story-telling, or singing or just sitting and thinking best, or a pleasant mixture of them all.”
Is this a good description? Does it appeal to children or more to adults? What is it about Rivendell that makes so many of us choose it as a place in Middle-earth that we would most want to live (often second only to the Shire in polls)?
I think it appeals, if anything, more to adults. It doesn't mention play, and it does mention work. And what makes Rivendell so appealing, in my view, is its adaptability. You get the sense that whatever you want, you will find--how can that not appeal?
When you read The Hobbit (as opposed to LOTR), do you envision Rivendell more as a single house, or as a settlement or village with many buildings? Do you envision the same thing when you read LOTR?
Yes. One extremely large, rambly building, or many buildings more or less interconnected into one, sprawling like lace around courtyards, gardens, terraces, and nature-interfaces.
How, if at all, should the movie-makers for The Hobbit movie make Rivendell different from how it appeared in the LOTR movies?
Same architecture, only in Spring, literally and figuratively. Blossoms blowing into the rooms rather than old leaves. A merrier place, where the threat of evil seems far and dim. But definitely the same place in a different mood.
In Letter #131, Tolkien says that Elrond’s house “represents Lore—the preservation in reverent memory of all tradition concerning the good, wise, and beautiful. It is not a scene of action but of reflection. Thus it is a place visited on the way to all deeds, or ‘adventures’.”
Is this a valid description of the Rivendell we visit in The Hobbit, or is this more influenced by LOTR (which Tolkien had written by the time of this letter)? Is a place of reflection necessary on all adventures? If so, why?
Yes. It's where Thorin & Company went for answers, about their map, their swords, and their route.
Is it necessary? In real life, if you're wise it is. Sometimes you have to throw on the brakes, even in the worst of situations, and give yourself time to think and plan.
In literature? Not so much. Many a story keeps going by hurtling the character from one crisis to another while she tries in vain to get a chance to stop and figure everything out--in such cases the reflection usually happens at the end, and the climax becomes the final revelation of what's really going on.
We also now meet Elrond, an “elf-friend”, descended from both elves and men, “as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer.”
Compare this introduction to how he is introduced in LOTR. Which do you like better? What differences are conveyed in the two descriptions? What do you think of the “elf-friend” issue (as opposed to what Elrond later became in Tolkien’s writings)?
I have to say that I like the LotR description better, though I don't fault the Hobbit description. The Hobbit description implies the LotR description in a necessarily scaled-down version.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on Apr 9 2009, 5:27am)
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 9 2009, 11:59am
Post #5 of 19
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As they approach the house of Elrond, Gandalf more or less tells the elves to be quiet, saying that “valleys have ears.”
What does he mean by this? Does he actually suspect spies here or something? Or does he just want those silly elves to shut up?
He was okay with the teasing until the elves said that Bilbo was too fat to squeeze through keyholes -- that's confidential information. We find out later that birds and bats can be spies, and that word can travel from the Lonely Mountain to the Misty Mountains in a remarkably short time. So I think Gandalf has genuine reason to be cautious.
The narrator tells us that he is going to pass over a lot of what happened in Rivendell for the following reason: “It is a strange thing, but things that are good to have and days that are good to spend are soon told about, and not much to listen to; while things that are uncomfortable, palpitating, and even gruesome, may make a good tale, and take a deal of telling anyway.”
Do you agree with him? Is this one of the reasons that this is an unpopular chapter?
It does seem as if Tolkien is apologizing for the lack of action in this chapter. I wouldn't say readers dislike this chapter -- although the elves can seem silly -- I just think it is a short, transitionary chapter, in which Elrond explains a few matters and then the party moves on.
The description we are given here of Rivendell is actually quoted directly in LOTR, that it was perfect, “whether you liked food, or sleep, or work, or story-telling, or singing or just sitting and thinking best, or a pleasant mixture of them all.”
Is this a good description?
It's not very precise, but that is deliberate. Tolkien allows each reader to imagine his or her perfect place.
Does it appeal to children or more to adults?
Both, I hope, as Tolkien intended.
What is it about Rivendell that makes so many of us choose it as a place in Middle-earth that we would most want to live (often second only to the Shire in polls)?
It's more welcoming than Lothlorien, and more idyllic than the Lonely Mountain or Rohan or Gondor. Perhaps because Elrond was Half-elven, it seems built for visitors as well as for elves. And of course Bilbo retired there, which is a great recommendation, because the readers identify with the hobbits.
When you read The Hobbit (as opposed to LOTR), do you envision Rivendell more as a single house, or as a settlement or village with many buildings?
When I read the version of The Hobbit with Tolkien illustrations, I visualize a single, if large, house, which is pretty much what he drew. Without the benefit of that illustration, I'm not sure what to visualize based on the text of The Hobbit. The Last Homely House does imply that it is a house, not a village. The Hobbit also reveals that many of the elves plan to camp under ths stars. How many of the elves in the valley actually sleep in Elrond's house, on a mattress? Not many, I would guess.
Do you envision the same thing when you read LOTR?
LotR gives us a few more details about the dining hall and the Hall of Fire, especially (which is similar to Beorn's dwelling in The Hobbit, if the description is closely examined). But it could still be one large, extended house. I still don't picture a village, and I still think many of the elves could be permanent campers who do not sleep in Elrond's house. Elrond's house is like the lodge at a national park, I think, where most of the visitors do not stay at the lodge.
How, if at all, should the movie-makers for The Hobbit movie make Rivendell different from how it appeared in the LOTR movies?
The movie-makers are probably stuck with what Jackson created, and that's not a bad vision, although it wasn't Tolkien's. I prefer the similarities between Elrond's Hall of Fire, Beorn's home, and Meduseld, all based upon the great hall in Beowulf. But it might be jarring to change what Jackson put in his movies.
In Letter #131, Tolkien says that Elrond’s house “represents Lore—the preservation in reverent memory of all tradition concerning the good, wise, and beautiful. It is not a scene of action but of reflection. Thus it is a place visited on the way to all deeds, or ‘adventures’.”
Is this a valid description of the Rivendell we visit in The Hobbit, or is this more influenced by LOTR (which Tolkien had written by the time of this letter)?
I think it is a valid description of Rivendell's role in The Hobbit.
Is a place of reflection necessary on all adventures?
It is for Tolkien's adventures.
If so, why?
He did not like to write "mere thrillers." He had a "didactic" purpose. He wanted his characters to reflect, so that his readers could also reflect. Actually, in LotR Rivendell is not the first place of reflection -- that would be Bombadil's house. Nor is it the last -- Lothlorien also is a place of reflection. Indeed, the characters have many opportunities to reflect along their journeys, and even more opportunities after their journeys.
We also now meet Elrond, an “elf-friend”, descended from both elves and men, “as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer.”
Compare this introduction to how he is introduced in LOTR. Which do you like better? What differences are conveyed in the two descriptions?
The face of Elrond was ageless, neither old nor young, though in it was written the memory of many things both glad and sorrowful. His hair was dark as the shadows of twilight, and upon it was set a circlet of silver; his eyes were grey as a clear evening, and in them was a light like the light of stars. Venerable he seemed as a king crowned with many winters, and yet hale as a tried warrior in the fulness of his strength. He was the Lord of Rivendell and mighty among both Elves and Men.
I find the descriptions quite similar, although perhaps there is more emphasis on Elrond's long memory in LotR, including his memory of things sorrowful, which then is followed up with many more revelations about his personal history and age. In both cases, though, the discription tells us more about how he seems than about how he looks. In The Hobbit we don't even learn the color of his hair and eyes as we do in LotR, but dark hair and grey eyes is hardly a detailed description. We don't even know whether he has a beard (and I'm willing to argue that he does, or at least could, since nothing in the text of The Hobbit or LotR indicates that elves or half-elves are beardless, and Cirdan does have a beard).
What do you think of the “elf-friend” issue (as opposed to what Elrond later became in Tolkien’s writings)?
He is an elf-friend in both books, and he is descended from both Men and Elves in The Hobbit. So I don't see a discrepancy, although in The Hobbit Tolkien remains coy about Elrond's age and personal history. The Hobbit is not as tied up with Elrond's personal history as LotR.
But that is true for every character in The Hobbit other than Bilbo himself -- we don't learn much about any of their personal histories. The Hobbit is very definitely focused on Bilbo, i.e., The Hobbit. LotR gives almost everyone a backhistory -- even minor characters like Butterbur and Ioreth.
(This post was edited by Curious on Apr 9 2009, 12:01pm)
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Apr 9 2009, 3:24pm
Post #6 of 19
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so much that I wrote my one and only fanfic about it:
A Chance Meeting at Rivendell
I didn't realize it was an unpopular chapter. I would have liked it to be longer, myself.
I don't remember my first impressions very well, but I think I pictured Rivendell much as I do now, as a large house with many wings and gables and secret places. My mental image reminds me a bit of Yellowstone Lodge (Here's an outside shot).
I hadn't thought before about how Elrond was introduced in the two books. I went and looked up the LotR description, and it didn't seem that different:
"His hair was dark as the shadows of twilight, and upon it was was set a circlet of silver; his eyes were grey as a clear evening, and in them was a light like the light of stars. Venerable he seemed as a king crowned with many winters, and yet hale as a tired warrior in the fulness of his strength. He was the Lord of Rivendll and mighty among both Elves and Men." The description in The Hobbit is less specific, but doesn't seem that much different to me.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on Apr 9 2009, 3:25pm)
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acheron
Gondor
Apr 9 2009, 4:12pm
Post #7 of 19
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I generally don't read fan fics or anything, but since you linked to it I figured I might as well. Fun reading, thanks. :)
For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Apr 9 2009, 5:07pm
Post #8 of 19
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Thanks for reading it. I don't really read fanfic either. I wrote this one after a previous discussion of The Hobbit, when someone mentioned that Estel would be in Rivendell when Bilbo got there. I was really hoping that would be included in the movie, and guessing it probably wouldn't (at the time, it was doubtful whether there would be a movie at all.) So I wrote it to satisfy myself.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 9 2009, 5:49pm
Post #9 of 19
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According to my poll, it was in a three-way tie
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for the least favorite, but not by a wide margin at all, so it is hardly conclusive.
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Apr 9 2009, 5:51pm
Post #10 of 19
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When I first began to read your fanfic, at first I thought, "Uh...this is nice, I suppose.." then, "Yes, definitely nice. Pleasant even. Enjoyable." Then, "My, but this just gets better and better!" Before long it had my eyes watering. Then I couldn't tear myself away. Finally I realized that it did what only truly good writing ever does, touching something at my core that really needed touched.
I'm honest when it comes to writing--because that's what writers need. You show a steep learning-curve even in the midst of this, your first fanfic. I felt like Bilbo, marveling at how Estel shot up four inches in a year. It begins as something one reads because a friend wrote it, and ends as something that keeps haunting the memory, too good to just read and forget.
Which tells me, if you leap in skill so much within the confines of just one story, that you're supposed to write. You have a talent crying out for exercise, something that wants very much to develop. Only my heart says that there's more to it than that. I started just to tell you that I think you've got a nice raw talent, but once I began to type this, I felt like I had lifted up a lantern in the dark and saw the first cobbles of a long road ahead, that can only be seen a few steps at a time.
I can't tell where this will go--you might get published or not, you might become famous or not, you might simply need to develop your word-skill for some unforseeable future necessity, or gain some profound insight that you never could have otherwise, had you not traveled down the writing-way. You might write things that no one else reads, or that everyone else reads, or that one other person reads at precisely the moment when she most needs those words. I can't tell. But you don't need to know where it will lead--only that right now you need to write, practicing every day (or every day except Sundays, if that means you take it seriously.) Write even if you're tired, even if you're in pain, even if you can only catch a few minutes to scrawl a few lines on a commuter train, even if you're in an evacuation camp, even if you're on the best vacation of your life.
I am serious. Gilraen and other fictional characters aren't the only one who gets such flashes. Someday you will be very glad you took up this practice.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Apr 9 2009, 8:06pm
Post #11 of 19
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Thanks for your kind words :-)
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I've actually been writing pretty much every day for the past 40 years, and have been in a writers' group for the past 20 years. I've self-published five novels (the first one is a fantasy romance, and I'm a little embarrassed by it...I think it's a great story, but I did adopt the romance style because that was how I was marketing it) and a book on prayer-journaling, and have been a finalist in a couple of regional writers' contests (Southwest and Pikes Peak), including second place one year.
And as I've mentioned a time or two elsewhere on TORn, I've just finished the first draft of a 225,000-word novel about some Tolkien fans in the 1970s and 1980s, including some who watch over the others from Heaven. I'm planning to revise it and try to peddle it, and if I don't get any publishers to take it, I'll self-publish it as well.
At this point in my life, writing is something I have to do, but I don't worry about publishing as a business. I have a day job. I figure I put my things out there for the universe, and whether the universe wants them or not isn't up to me. If a few TORnsibs read my little fanfic story, that makes me very happy. And at least one has read my most recent novel, which really makes me happy.
Thanks for your encouragement. I can't not write; writing keeps me sane. But it is sweet when people whose opinion I respect have kind words for my writing :-)
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 10 2009, 3:09pm
Post #12 of 19
(2407 views)
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As they approach the house of Elrond, Gandalf more or less tells the elves to be quiet, saying that “valleys have ears.”
What does he mean by this?
A nice little wordplay regarding the tendency of words spoken in valleys to echo.
Does he actually suspect spies here or something?
He suspects drunken Elves may spill the beans.
Or does he just want those silly elves to shut up?
I think it’s preemption. He does seem to shush them just as they get ready to turn their jokes from the others to him.
The narrator tells us that he is going to pass over a lot of what happened in Rivendell for the following reason: “It is a strange thing, but things that are good to have and days that are good to spend are soon told about, and not much to listen to; while things that are uncomfortable, palpitating, and even gruesome, may make a good tale, and take a deal of telling anyway.”
Do you agree with him?
“Without conflict there is no plot.”
-Aristotle
And who am I to argue with old Greeks?
Is this one of the reasons that this is an unpopular chapter?
It is? Whoda thunk? I like it myself, but then I’ve always been “different”.
The description we are given here of Rivendell is actually quoted directly in LOTR, that it was perfect, “whether you liked food, or sleep, or work, or story-telling, or singing or just sitting and thinking best, or a pleasant mixture of them all.”
Is this a good description?
It’s general enough to fit everyone. I know I’d like to vacation there.
Does it appeal to children or more to adults?
As Walt Disney said, the trick is to appeal to the child in everyone.
What is it about Rivendell that makes so many of us choose it as a place in Middle-earth that we would most want to live (often second only to the Shire in polls)?
The library. And the nightly tra-la-lallying contests in the Hall of Fire.
When you read The Hobbit (as opposed to LOTR), do you envision Rivendell more as a single house, or as a settlement or village with many buildings?
As a ranch house with various outlying buildings like a stable, a workshop, a bunkhouse, a smokehouse, storage sheds, and a guest cottage or two.
Do you envision the same thing when you read LOTR?
Yes, only more a caravansary. Later we’ll learn that Rivendell was a haven for refugees, and even was bypassed and besieged by Sauron ala Bastogne. So it could be considered like a Masada-like complex, only in a valley instead of on a plateau.
How, if at all, should the movie-makers for The Hobbit movie make Rivendell different from how it appeared in the LOTR movies?
In the LOTR movies it was set as Elvish Autumn. In The Hobbit movie it should be Elvish Midsummer.
In Letter #131, Tolkien says that Elrond’s house “represents Lore—the preservation in reverent memory of all tradition concerning the good, wise, and beautiful. It is not a scene of action but of reflection. Thus it is a place visited on the way to all deeds, or ‘adventures’.”
Is this a valid description of the Rivendell we visit in The Hobbit, or is this more influenced by LOTR (which Tolkien had written by the time of this letter)?
Elrond seems pretty much a loremaster. Especially since he is chief of the half-elves, he has an oar in both sides of the river, as it were.
Is a place of reflection necessary on all adventures?
Most of them.
If so, why?
It’s the place for exposition, for setting up the plot, for establishing the plot points, for displaying the various Chekhov’s guns, and for explaining the macguffin.. It’s M’s office and Q’s lab in the Bond films, Dumbledore’s study in Harry Potter, Ben Kenobi’s hut in Star Wars, the Nebuchadnezzar in The Matrix, the briefing room in every war movie, and the absent-minded professor’s lab in every creature feature.
We also now meet Elrond, an “elf-friend”, descended from both elves and men, “as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer.”
Compare this introduction to how he is introduced in LOTR.
“The face of Elrond was ageless, neither old nor young, though in it was written the memory of many things both glad and sorrowful. His hair was dark as the shadows of twilight, and upon it was set a circlet of silver; his eyes were grey as a clear evening, and in them was a light like the light of stars. Venerable he seemed as a king crowned with many winters, and yet hale as a tried warrior in the fulness of his strength. He was the Lord of Rivendell and mighty among both Elves and Men.”
Which do you like better?
They’re both intriguing.
What differences are conveyed in the two descriptions?
Elrond seems a greater power in LOTR.
What do you think of the “elf-friend” issue (as opposed to what Elrond later became in Tolkien’s writings)?
It sounds like Elrond was originally the Chieftain of the Dunedain:
“In those days of our tale there were still some people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the house was their chief.”
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 10 2009, 3:47pm
Post #13 of 19
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A valley seems like a bad place for a fortress.
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Later we’ll learn that Rivendell was a haven for refugees, and even was bypassed and besieged by Sauron ala Bastogne. So it could be considered like a Masada-like complex, only in a valley instead of on a plateau.
I can't quite visualize Rivendell as a fortress under siege. The protections offered seem more magical than strategic -- hard to find, streams that flood. Could this have been some kind of magical siege, like the siege of Doriath before Melian's Girdle came down (that conjures up an inappropriate image!)? Or was Rivendell very different back in the days it served as a fortress?
It sounds like Elrond was originally the Chieftain of the Dunedain:
“In those days of our tale there were still some people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the house was their chief.”
Well, in LotR Elrond did a great deal to protect the Rangers, and Aragorn calls him the eldest of their race, and Elrond holds the Sceptre of Annúminas, so perhaps even in LotR he is still considered the chief of their race, if not the Chieftain of their race.
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squire
Half-elven
Apr 16 2009, 1:52am
Post #14 of 19
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As they approach the house of Elrond, Gandalf more or less tells the elves to be quiet, saying that “valleys have ears.” What does he mean by this? Does he actually suspect spies here or something? Or does he just want those silly elves to shut up?
Well, it is a little strange that the Elves know all about the keyhole, and thus presumably about the key to the hidden door, no? I’m surprised Gandalf didn’t have a heart attack at that one. Tolkien explains it with this comment:
Elves know a lot and are wondrous folk for news, and know what is going on among the peoples of the land, as quick as water flows, or quicker.
Interesting hint of Ulmo there, eh? But still, does that explain their knowledge of something that took place in Bag End in the dead of night and hasn’t been mentioned since? Or did the dwarves carelessly talk out loud about their plans during the many nights of camping on the road between Bilbo’s house and Elrond’s? Somehow I doubt that’s what’s intended here; the Elves’ knowledge is both semi-magical and irresponsible in mortal terms.
I find that much of this Rivendell chapter is a powerful template for the equivalent setting in The Lord of the Rings – after the very original adventures in Bree and Weathertop, etc., the later book suddenly reverts closely to the pattern laid down by The Hobbit: rest and counsel at Rivendell. So now, we suddenly remember Gandalf’s words to the hobbits about zipping their lips even there:
`Hurray!’ cried Pippin, springing up. `Here is our noble cousin! Make way for Frodo, Lord of the Ring!’
‘Hush!’ said Gandalf from the shadows at the back of the porch. `Evil things do not come into this valley; but all the same we should not name them.’ (“Many Meetings”, Book II, Chap. 1, The Fellowship of the Ring)
Oddly enough, the actual words about how even “valleys have ears” from The Hobbit were transposed into the Bizarro World of Bored of the Rings at this point in the parody’s narrative:
"Silence," commanded Goodgulf in a loud voice. "Speak not of the Great Ring here or anywhere. If Sorhed's spies discovered that you, Frito Bugger, hailing from the Sty, had the One Ring, all would be lost. And his spies are everywhere. The Nine Black Riders are abroad again, and there are those who claim to have seen the Seven Santinis, the Six Danger Signs, and the entire Trapp family, including the dog. Even the walls have ears," he said, pointing to two huge lobes which were protruding from behind the mantelpiece. (“Finders Keepers, Finders Weepers”, Chap. 4, Bored of the Rings)
The narrator tells us that he is going to pass over a lot of what happened in Rivendell for the following reason: “It is a strange thing, but things that are good to have and days that are good to spend are soon told about, and not much to listen to; while things that are uncomfortable, palpitating, and even gruesome, may make a good tale, and take a deal of telling anyway.” Do you agree with him? Is this one of the reasons that this is an unpopular chapter?
I certainly agree that peace and quiet aren’t the ingredients of a good story, if by good story we mean one with a lot of plot. I don’t suppose Tolkien had a lot of love for stories that are primarily internal, in which some character introspectively dissects his or her own life in fascinating detail, irrespective of whether there’s an adventure going on “outside”! I often wonder if Tolkien is striking a blow against modernism when he explicitly defends his understanding of what he ironically calls a “strange thing”. Certainly, it was on his mind as he mulled over the nature of story, after writing a few; the Hobbit passage rang a bell for me when I read the following Silmarillion one, written at the same time:
Of the long years of peace that followed after the coming of Denethor [the Elf, son of Lenwe] there is little tale. … of bliss and glad life there is little to be said, before it ends; as works fair and wonderful, while still they endure for eyes to see, are their own record, and only when they are in peril or broken for ever do they pass into song. (“Of the Sindar”, Chap. 10, The Silmarillion)
It’s interesting that Sam’s famous insight into story in LotR, that he is within one even as it is unfolding, follows and develops from these more primitive perceptions about story. Sam is internalizing the story-form in a very modern and complex way that neither The Hobbit’s nor the Silmarillion’s characters did.
The description we are given here of Rivendell is actually quoted directly in LOTR, that it was perfect, “whether you liked food, or sleep, or work, or story-telling, or singing or just sitting and thinking best, or a pleasant mixture of them all.” Is this a good description? Does it appeal to children or more to adults? What is it about Rivendell that makes so many of us choose it as a place in Middle-earth that we would most want to live (often second only to the Shire in polls)?
Your point that LotR actually quotes The Hobbit is another indicator of just how strong the parallels are meant to be here. I think, within the story, that this applies better to Rivendell in The Hobbit than it does in the LotR – where Lothlorien’s attractions seem to be equal, if not superior, to Rivendell’s.
I’m intrigued by the inclusion of “work” in the list of what seems like unbridled hedonism. I don’t know about anyone else, but I’ve always wanted to live in Gondor, where there are hints of cosmopolitanism, conflict, and excitement. I cannot abide the thought of an endless vacation or retirement. The Shire is a kind of rural but work-free paradise which even Tolkien admits is boring - and except for the blessed availability of “work”, according to this list Rivendell is a cruise ship oddly aground in a Swiss ravine.
If I remember, later commentators (or was it Tolkien himself) who compared Rivendell not to an Elvish paradise, but to a kind of proto-university, devoted to study and preservation of knowledge. That interests me, but it doesn’t really come through in The Hobbit’s version.
When you read The Hobbit (as opposed to LOTR), do you envision Rivendell more as a single house, or as a settlement or village with many buildings? Do you envision the same thing when you read LOTR?
“Last Homely House” means House, singular, as I read it. However, as far as buildings go, I’d assume that the Great House where Elrond lived was like the Great House on an English estate, with plenty of outbuildings to support the agricultural activities that supply the place with food. Such places were like villages in size and complexity, but without the freeholding economy we find in English or American villages. An unpleasant but accurate parallel in American life would be an antebellum plantation, right down to the happily singing simpletons in the outlying fields – but without, needless to say, any hint of slavery in the Tolkien version!
LotR does not expand on The Hobbit’s description, physically, as far as I remember.
How, if at all, should the movie-makers for The Hobbit movie make Rivendell different from how it appeared in the LOTR movies?
As others have commented, this is one setting that should probably stay the same. I agree that the seasonal change – midsummer in The Hobbit, compared to late fall in LotR – is enough to establish the necessary change of tone. It comes right from the books and reflects Tolkien’s intention as well, I’d guess!
This is just one of many examples of why The Hobbit movie must be made with the expectation that it will, in time, be viewed first, before the trilogy. This generation of non-book fans will just have to wrench their heads around the indisputable fact that The Hobbit comes first, and that it’s LotR that varies from The Hobbit, rather than the other way round.
In Letter #131, Tolkien says that Elrond’s house “represents Lore—the preservation in reverent memory of all tradition concerning the good, wise, and beautiful. It is not a scene of action but of reflection. Thus it is a place visited on the way to all deeds, or ‘adventures’.” Is this a valid description of the Rivendell we visit in The Hobbit, or is this more influenced by LOTR (which Tolkien had written by the time of this letter)? Is a place of reflection necessary on all adventures? If so, why?
I think the letter does reflect Tolkien’s expansion of Rivendell’s symbolism when he wrote LotR. As so often with Tolkien, he freely expands on rather than radically alters his early ideas, so that the bucolic Last Homely House evolves into a highly symbolic place of reflection that precedes all “deeds, or ‘adventures’”.
Is such a place necessary? Well, in Tolkien’s conception of story, it is. Both of his major works, Hobbit and LotR, feature the much-commented-on episodic rest-action-rest-action chapters rhythm.
Whether reflection actually takes place, is hard to say. After all, if the dwarves had “reflected” on what they learned at Rivendell, they would have set an armed watch in the cave that fatal night, rather than trust to Bilbo’s nightmares to save them.
We also now meet Elrond, an “elf-friend”, descended from both elves and men, “as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer.” Compare this introduction to how he is introduced in LOTR. Which do you like better? What differences are conveyed in the two descriptions? What do you think of the “elf-friend” issue (as opposed to what Elrond later became in Tolkien’s writings)?
I like the late addition of “kind as summer” to what is otherwise a totally intimidating list of qualities. It reminds me of the similarly incongruous description of Galadriel in LotR:
“’Sometimes like a great tree in flower, sometimes like a white daffadowndilly, small and slender like. Hard as di’monds, soft as moonlight. Warm as sunlight, cold as frost in the stars. Proud and far-off as a snow-mountain, and as merry as any lass I ever saw with daisies in her hair in springtime.’” (“The Window on the West”, Chap. 5, Book IV, The Two Towers)
This is the kind of thing that makes Elves alien to us, as they must be. Humans can’t pull off that kind of gravitas/humilitas combo nearly as convincingly.
But wait, is Elrond in The Hobbit an Elf? At first he is an “elf-friend”, which I associate with a mortal who is blessed by the elves with friendship; later we learn he is descended from both Elves and Men, as he is in LotR: Half-Elven. If I remember, Tolkien did not have any real conception of Elrond as the half-Elven child of Earendil at this point, even in his Silmarillion tales. In fact, he borrowed the name, not the non-existent character, from his great tales, to give The Hobbit a bit of weighty past here, in keeping with the necessary ability to identify the swords and to spot the moon-letters. Thus the idea of an Elf-friend (like Beren, Turin or Hurin) being in conflict with being Half-elven (like Dior) is not necessarily contradictory here.
And in a kind of circular fashion, LotR extended this concept of “Elrond”, Lord of Rivendell, and he finally blossomed into the masterful character of that story during the many revisions that went into writing the Council of Elrond. Only then could the Silmarillion tales be re-written to include this new and multi-talented son of the legendary Earendil!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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sador
Half-elven
Apr 16 2009, 11:37am
Post #15 of 19
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I actually blew question no. 9 because of it, and came only second in the quiz! 
(not that being second to NEB is that bad, mind you)
"In fact I should like to know all about you. Not that it will do you much good" - the Great Goblin
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Apr 16 2009, 1:17pm
Post #16 of 19
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Thanks! I tried to stay as close to canon as possible, but of course I made a lot of stuff up 
Sorry about the quiz, but as you say, coming in second after NEB is an honor in itself 
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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GaladrielTX
Tol Eressea
Apr 16 2009, 5:37pm
Post #17 of 19
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Some neat ideas there, squire.
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“… of bliss and glad life there is little to be said, before it ends; as works fair and wonderful, while still they endure for eyes to see, are their own record, and only when they are in peril or broken for ever do they pass into song.”
Rivendell is gone now, though, isn’t it (or never existed, really)? That’s why I want more. Encore! *sigh*
Thanks for sharing that quote from The Sil. It brought to mind a personal experience. I grew up across the street from an actual Antebellum mansion or farmhouse which is a funny coincidence because it popped into my mind before you even mentioned plantations further down in your post. (I don’t know if it was a slaveholding farm in the old days or not.) Next to it was a carriage house which had been converted to a garage apartment. The land surrounding these buildings had been sold off to become a 1950s era subdivision of ranch-style houses. (I probably grew up where the pigs or chickens had been kept, LOL.) Funny, as a child I never thought about how unusual it was to look out my bedroom window at the breathtaking large white house across the street with its lovely azaleas or the garage apartment in a similar style next door to it.
The old house was uncomfortable and expensive to maintain, though. The family who had lived there for a few decades sold it to someone else when I was a teenager. (They did let the long-term carriage house residents buy that building, though.) The new owners of the big house didn’t care for the yard as well as the previous owners and let the whole property run down a bit. Finally, while I was in college or after I had moved far away, they sold it to developers who demolished the building and put up five expensive homes (compared to the other houses in the neighborhood). I regret that I never took a photo in the days when the house was cared for so well. After all, it was its “own record”. Now it’s just a matter of, well, not song, but of memory.
The owners (previously renters) of the garage apartment eventually had to move, too; however, when they sold it they gave the first opportunity to a young woman who had grown up on that street because they knew she loved it and would take care of it. In fact, she took better care of it than they had, and it’s a treat to look at it now. I’d better take a photo when I visit my mom in a couple of weeks. April is a lovely time of year there, too.
Even if I had given the unusualness of the house a thought in the days of its beauty, I probably wouldn’t have talked about it much because it would only seem like bragging or be of little interest in itself to other people. I think it makes a better story now because of the fact that it is gone.
Anyway, this all goes to show Tolkien has a good idea of real human attitudes toward these things.
I’m intrigued by the inclusion of “work” in the list of what seems like unbridled hedonism.
When I read this passage in the book on Sunday it was the first time I ever noticed this. I wonder if they have any openings for an accountant. :o)
according to this list Rivendell is a cruise ship oddly aground in a Swiss ravine.
I only found out a couple of years ago that a Swiss valley inspired Tolkien’s Rivendell. Consequently, I had had decades to form my own image of the Last Homely House which is unlike that of the movies. I wonder if the filmmakers did know of the location of the real valley and that’s why the architecture of Rivendell is so…gingerbread. The white airiness of the movie image does bother me, though. It gets cold in the mountains. While I imagine the Elves have some ability to persuade nature to their own ends, I don’t think that is hinted at in The Hobbit much if at all. So I’d always viewed it as cozier and warmer than the movies presented it.
*blocks out image of the chest hair competition on the Lido deck on that cruise I went on last year*
“’Sometimes like a great tree in flower, sometimes like a white daffadowndilly, small and slender like. Hard as di’monds, soft as moonlight. Warm as sunlight, cold as frost in the stars. Proud and far-off as a snow-mountain, and as merry as any lass I ever saw with daisies in her hair in springtime.’” (“The Window on the West”, Chap. 5, Book IV, The Two Towers)
This is the kind of thing that makes Elves alien to us, as they must be. Humans can’t pull off that kind of gravitas/humilitas combo nearly as convincingly.
This observation made me giggle because it brought to mind an interview I read a long time ago with Bob Guza, a frequent writer for the soap opera General Hospital. He calls the show a “high romance” and points out that the characters do not do the mundane things we ordinary people do. Every thing they do and are is on a larger scale. Are soap opera characters Elves?
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The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
(This post was edited by GaladrielTX on Apr 16 2009, 5:40pm)
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squire
Half-elven
Apr 16 2009, 6:04pm
Post #18 of 19
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Are soap opera characters Elves?
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That's an excellent question. Since soap operas are descended from melodramas, which are updated versions of ancient oral formulaic legends, I'm inclined to say yes.
I think it's Tolkien's problem that his Elves are essentially sexless. They needn't be, of course, and on soap operas they certainly aren't. But who couldn't, with very little effort, rewrite the Silmarillion as a soap opera?
Ah. Soap opera... the writers do make one want to giggle.
I am reminded of the time Jeremy on All My Children decided to become a Buddhist monk. The writers needed him to stay in contact with his ex, though, so they wrote a classic set, the "Lounge" at the Tibetan monastery, from which Jeremy could make a quick call back to the U.S., on the lounge's pay phone, during his "break".
Another classic (from Loving) was the "Kuwait bar" during the first Gulf War. When you need to have the rich hero, who has enlisted in order to flee his life of privilege, lose himself in a hopeless relationship with a mysterious hooker (with a heart of gold), it has to start in a bar, even in a country where open alcohol consumption is forbidden.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
May 5 2009, 6:33pm
Post #19 of 19
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Rivendell is like no place else
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as are each of the realms in Tolkien's Middle-earth, but Rivendell is like a melting-pot of Elves and men... just as Elrond is himself. Thranduil lives in caves; Galadriel lives in trees; Elrond has man-like structures and is the keeper of the past (present and futures with a young Aragorn running about).
The description does make it sound like a single dwelling, but it doesn't mean it's not just Elrond's house in the compound. It's a place of all the things living beings need to live in peace. Food, rest, music, library, creativity, the place just screams inspiration!
Gandalf knows that there are spies everywhere even if there isn't open war. I think he senses it all around him and finds few places where he can let down his guard. Rivendell is one of them, and the Shire is another, imho.
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
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