The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room: **An Unexpected Party** - 10. A few thematic questions…simple stuff... the Narrator, Social Class, Anachronism, Fairy Tales... (squire)

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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
**An Unexpected Party** - 10. A few thematic questions…simple stuff... the Narrator, Social Class, Anachronism, Fairy Tales...

squire
Valinor

Mar 29 2009, 3:19pm

Views: 637
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An Unexpected Party - 10. A few thematic questions…simple stuff... the Narrator, Social Class, Anachronism, Fairy Tales...	Can't Post

Well, that about wraps up our first week of the Reading Room discussion of The Hobbit. Thank you all, each and every one of you, for joining in; and say hey! to all our lurkers – come on in, we’re not intimidating any more, much.

As I said in the beginning, I had intended to do some “thematic” threads after covering the text. No time for lots of additional threads now – I barely got through the week, if you didn’t notice – but I will ask a few token questions for those with a taste for this stuff.

Narrator’s voice

This week we’ve already gotten a few perceptive comments on the narrator of The Hobbit. For instance, Curious commented that the narrator is clearly a part of our Primary World unlike the equivalent voice in The Lord of the Rings. Arwen’s Daughter noted that the narrator makes choices about when the reader will learn something. And someone else (sorry!) pointed out how the narrator has his/her own character, with a point of view, and a limited body of knowledge about the story.

I have always defaulted “him” as a male, but whether that’s because I’m male, I know Tolkien was male, or it’s an English language/social convention, I don’t know. Certainly my mother read the story to me as a kid and I doubt I heard a single word that sounded funny coming out of her mouth.

A. Is the narrator male or female?

Most stories of this kind have a narrative voice, sometimes called the omniscient third person, or something like that (story-experts, pitch in here!). In The Hobbit, for starters, the narrative voice is first person almost immediately - not uncommon in children's literature, or even adventure romances of the period. But then the voice gets folksy and idiosyncratic, and suddenly we have the character of the Hobbit-narrator. To many people, this character is the single most annoying, or differentiating, thing that makes The Hobbit inferior to The Lord of the Rings. Tolkien is on record as saying himself, years later, that he regretted the “talking to children” tone of The Hobbit – yet when he attempted to re-write The Hobbit in a style more consistent with LotR, he stopped when others told him he was destroying a unique work of literature.

B. If the narrator’s personalized comments were eliminated from The Hobbit, would it be a better book?

Anachronisms

We’ve already started talking about this, of course. It’s unavoidable with this story. Or is it?

C. Why do apparent anachronisms in The Hobbit like coffee, the morning post, the mantle clock, and tobacco arouse so many objections from readers? What are they anachronistic in reference to?

D. Isn’t there a tremendous amount of fantasy literature, both before and after The Hobbit, in which modernity encounters antiquity for both comic and dramatic effect?

Social class

My impression from many of the responses this week is that some modern readers do not like, care about, or understand the distinctions of social class that have been so important in past societies, including early 20th century England. From this point of view, thinking of Bilbo as “upper class”, “rich”, or “well to do” has nothing to do with enjoying the story. Ditto with the dwarves, etc.

E. Is class a red herring, brought up for the critic’s pleasure but having no relevance to the story as it’s written?

Other readers take an interest in finding the implicit messages that this first chapter of The Hobbit conveys about comfort, manners, host/guest relations, and personal interaction, using class as a lens. For instance, I was glad to read some explanations for the dwarves’ behavior in taking advantage of Bilbo’s hospitality, as stemming from their social contempt for him as a hired burglar, no matter how grand his hobbit hole may have been described as for the reader. I’m not sure that’s in the text – one can argue the discrimination is more racial in nature, as Tolkien did in his post-facto reanalysis in “The Quest of Erebor” – but it was new to me and very interesting to think about and re-read for.

F. What class was Tolkien? Would he be unconscious or conscious of the question, and his choices about writing it in his fantasies?

I also was interested how many people assumed that servants were a matter of choice in a pre-industrial household of wealth. It’s arguable that the fantasy precludes servants, or that eliminating them just simplifies the storytelling, but I also think many modern people just don’t like the idea of servants. We see the same reaction in some discussions of Sam’s flexible status in LotR.

G. Did Tolkien employ household servants? Do you? Is the example of Sam enough to raise the question here, or should we not think about this level of reality in a fantasy story unless the author asks us to?

Fairy Tales

I have commented several times this week that one common interpretation of The Hobbit is that of a modern, bourgeois Englishman/hobbit from the Civilized Lands, encountering Faerie (the land of Fairy Tales), as embodied by the dwarves and the many later fantastical characters and situations in the Wilderland. Kind of a “twist” on a traditional fairy tale. But Tolkien argued that the classic fairy tale was always about a mortal who journeyed to Faerie, to experience transformation or recreation. (If I’m getting the gist of “On Fairy-Stories” wrong, please correct me.) And we have already gotten bogged down in questions of just how “modern” the dwarves actually are; and how fantastical hobbits really are.

H. Is The Hobbit a fairy tale?

I. How would you describe it in a few short words to a friend who is interested in reading it? Would his or her having read The Lord of the Rings first make a difference in your description? Would knowing your friend wants to get it for his or her children make a difference?

Thank you very much everyone! Let’s hit the road for adventure in Chapter Two, covered by Finding Frodo!

squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary

Subject	User	Time
An Unexpected Party - 10. A few thematic questions…simple stuff... the Narrator, Social Class, Anachronism, Fairy Tales...	squire	Mar 29 2009, 3:19pm
Long story made longer...	Morthoron	Mar 29 2009, 5:21pm
Whoa! Thank you very much!!	squire	Mar 29 2009, 5:48pm
Yes, thanks indeed!	N.E. Brigand	Mar 29 2009, 7:10pm
And another thank-you!	dernwyn	Mar 30 2009, 2:06am
Fascinating story! Thank you! //	sador	Mar 30 2009, 6:19am
Very interesting. Obviously I didn't read your post	Curious	Mar 30 2009, 2:50pm
Thanks, squire! Enjoyed the week!	batik	Mar 29 2009, 5:35pm
tales out of school	Luthien Rising	Mar 29 2009, 9:44pm
Thoughts.	Curious	Mar 29 2009, 10:20pm
This has been fun!	dernwyn	Mar 30 2009, 2:28am
A few answers, some to the point	sador	Mar 30 2009, 6:17am
You remember correctly.	Curious	Mar 30 2009, 3:04pm
Thank you!	sador	Mar 31 2009, 6:47am
Thankyou for a wonderful week and a great beginning ...	Elven	Mar 30 2009, 10:27am
Thank you, squire, for an interesting discussion.	Curious	Mar 30 2009, 3:10pm
The servant question	Dreamdeer	Mar 30 2009, 7:55pm
He reminds me of some bachelors I know	Curious	Mar 30 2009, 8:02pm
Thank you	Dreamdeer	Mar 30 2009, 8:44pm
Well	Darkstone	Mar 30 2009, 8:48pm
Thorin reminds me of some scam artists of the time.	Curious	Mar 30 2009, 9:06pm
faint voice from the back of the room That was me!	GaladrielTX	Mar 31 2009, 12:14am
Yes! Sorry indeed!	squire	Mar 31 2009, 12:26am
Some comments and some wondering	simplyaven	Mar 31 2009, 3:49am
Where and when does "The Hobbit" take place?	N.E. Brigand	Mar 31 2009, 4:40pm
Sam starting a new business?	simplyaven	Mar 31 2009, 7:43pm
It's in the Prologue to LotR.	Curious	Mar 31 2009, 8:35pm
I answered to NEB below but	simplyaven	Mar 31 2009, 11:19pm
"On Fairy Stories"	simplyaven	Apr 1 2009, 3:20am
I'm sorry, I can't help but chuckle.	Curious	Apr 1 2009, 6:42am
Is "Farmer Giles of Ham" a Fairy-tale?	sador	Apr 1 2009, 7:09am
I suppose so, although	Curious	Apr 1 2009, 7:27am
Eucatastrophes	Dreamdeer	Apr 1 2009, 4:45pm
I don't find Farmer Giles'	Curious	Apr 1 2009, 9:53pm
I find the choice of child very unexpected indeed...	Dreamdeer	Apr 2 2009, 4:19am
Yes, but	Curious	Apr 2 2009, 4:58pm
Noakes is the tragedy	Dreamdeer	Apr 2 2009, 5:12pm
Okay.	Curious	Apr 2 2009, 5:18pm
Maybe different experiences have something to do with it.	Dreamdeer	Apr 2 2009, 5:29pm
Fair enough, although	Curious	Apr 2 2009, 5:35pm
Not a very good job	simplyaven	Apr 1 2009, 1:58pm
In his defense, Tolkien had a different purpose.	Curious	Apr 1 2009, 2:25pm
I have the “Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics”	simplyaven	Apr 1 2009, 2:53pm
In addition to what Curious notes	N.E. Brigand	Mar 31 2009, 8:52pm
A few names and quick thoughts	simplyaven	Mar 31 2009, 10:44pm
Tolkien actually mentions de Saussure.	N.E. Brigand	Mar 31 2009, 11:18pm
Yes, there are references but I don't recall "On Fairy Stories" among them	simplyaven	Apr 1 2009, 2:41am
How would you define Faerie?	Curious	Apr 1 2009, 6:58am
Few quick words on "Faerie" and "fairy" terms	simplyaven	Apr 1 2009, 2:22pm
Very interesting stuff.	Curious	Apr 1 2009, 2:41pm
I'm not questioning the quality of his work!	simplyaven	Apr 1 2009, 2:51pm
Yes, and that makes sense.	Curious	Apr 1 2009, 3:19pm
Sea Ania?	Dreamdeer	Apr 1 2009, 4:39pm
Defining Faerie has nothing to do with origins	simplyaven	Apr 1 2009, 7:12pm
I miscommunicated.	Dreamdeer	Apr 1 2009, 7:19pm
Europe.	Darkstone	Mar 31 2009, 8:55pm
Earning	Dreamdeer	Mar 31 2009, 10:17pm
On spec	Dreamdeer	Mar 31 2009, 10:31pm
"...a Warwickshire village of about the period of the Diamond Jubilee..."	Darkstone	Mar 31 2009, 8:52pm
What is this "Shire" you mention?	N.E. Brigand	Mar 31 2009, 9:05pm
Where is Byzantium?	Darkstone	Mar 31 2009, 9:15pm
Past, or passing, or to come. //	N.E. Brigand	Mar 31 2009, 10:28pm
A few explanations.	Dreamdeer	Mar 31 2009, 9:42pm
The Gaffer may have been an enabler,	Curious	Mar 31 2009, 10:13pm
Thank you for all these!	simplyaven	Mar 31 2009, 11:22pm
Egalitarianism	sador	Apr 1 2009, 6:03am
Luck and opportunity	Dreamdeer	Apr 1 2009, 4:05pm
Beautifully said	Aunt Dora Baggins	Apr 1 2009, 4:19pm
The story of Evariste Galois	Curious	Apr 1 2009, 4:52pm
Every now and than	Aunt Dora Baggins	Apr 1 2009, 5:22pm
Is it?	sador	Apr 2 2009, 6:29am
I could be wrong.	Aunt Dora Baggins	Apr 2 2009, 4:44pm
Those graduate-level mathematicians are such cut-ups.//	Curious	Apr 2 2009, 4:50pm
I was raised with jokes like that.	Aunt Dora Baggins	Apr 2 2009, 5:41pm
So you're not such a radical after all!	sador	Apr 2 2009, 7:08am
Quite radical in the USA	Dreamdeer	Apr 2 2009, 5:02pm
Man! I never realized this had started...	Compa_Mighty	Mar 31 2009, 3:23pm
Is there really "nothing happy" about LOTR? //	N.E. Brigand	Mar 31 2009, 3:37pm
Welcome to the discussion!	Curious	Mar 31 2009, 4:36pm
The "1960 Hobbit" was published in "The History of 'The Hobbit'".	N.E. Brigand	Mar 31 2009, 4:50pm
I suspected as much. Thanks.//	Curious	Mar 31 2009, 5:00pm
Thank you!	Compa_Mighty	Mar 31 2009, 5:33pm
What about 'The Field of Cormallen' and 'The Steward and the King'?	sador	Mar 31 2009, 6:43pm
Thanks, sador!	Compa_Mighty	Mar 31 2009, 10:57pm
Confirming - and not confirming	dernwyn	Apr 1 2009, 4:01am
So I didn't make it up, but perhaps Carpenter did? Interesting. //	Curious	Apr 1 2009, 6:45am
And we all believed it	dernwyn	Apr 1 2009, 10:30am
I should be grading algebra papers	Aunt Dora Baggins	Mar 31 2009, 4:59pm
Class, it's time to turn in your papers.	Mmatmuor	Apr 3 2009, 3:11am
They never eat supper!	N.E. Brigand	Aug 10 2009, 4:03am
Supper is like "tea" in 'A journey to the Cross-roads'	sador	Aug 10 2009, 5:39am

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