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Entwife Wandlimb
Menegroth
Mar 28 2008, 3:02pm
Post #1 of 16
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The Great River -- Peril Ahead and a Malcontent at Hand
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They wake to a foggy morning.
'I do not see why we should pass the Rapids or follow the River any further,' said Boromir. `If the Emyn Muil lie before us, then we can abandon these cockle-boats [cock·boat –noun a small boat, esp. one used as a tender. Also, cockleboat.] , and strike westward and southward, until we come to the Entwash and cross into my own land.'
`We can, if we are making for Minas Tirith,' said Aragorn, `but that is not yet agreed. And such a course may be more perilous than it sounds. The vale of Entwash is flat and fenny, and fog is a deadly peril there for those on foot and laden. I would not abandon our boats until we must. The River is at least a path that cannot be missed.'
`But the Enemy holds the eastern bank,' objected Boromir. `And even if you pass the Gates of Argonath and come unmolested to the Tindrock, what will you do then? Leap down the Falls and land in the marshes? '
`No! ' answered Aragorn. `Say rather that we will bear our boats by the ancient way to Rauros-foot, and there take to the water again. Do you not know, Boromir, or do you choose to forget the North Stair, and the high seat upon Amon Hen, that were made in the days of the great kings? I at least have a mind to stand in that high place again, before I decide my further course. There, maybe, we shall see some sign that will guide us.'
1. Does Boromir not know or does he choose to forget the North Stair, and the high seat upon Amon Hen? What's going on here?
Aragorn and Legolas scout ahead.
`Peril lies ahead on every southward road,' answered Aragorn. `Wait for us one day. If we do not return in that time, you will know that evil has indeed befallen us. Then you must take a new leader and follow him as best you can.'
2. Who would that be, do you suppose?
The scouts return in a couple of hours. Aragron and Boromir carry the surprisingly light boats across land to avoid the rapids.
Already the short afternoon was past, and a dim cloudy dusk was closing in. They sat beside the water listening to the confused rush and roar of the Rapids hidden in the mist; they were tired and sleepy, and their hearts were as gloomy as the dying day.
3. Why are they all so tired instead of just the two men? Why are they so gloomy?
'Well, here we are, and here we must pass another night,' said Boromir. `We need sleep, and even if Aragorn had a mind to pass the Gates of Argonath by night, we are all too tired-except, no doubt, our sturdy dwarf.'
Gimli made no reply: he was nodding as he sat.
4. After his tough talk earlier, Gimli didn’t help with the boats after all. Can you shed some light on Boromir and Gimli’s relationship and how it got to this point?
5. Boromir is such a grumbler! Is he unjustified?
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Mar 28 2008, 4:16pm
Post #2 of 16
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Weariness + Fear = Demoralization
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1. Does Boromir not know or does he choose to forget the North Stair, and the high seat upon Amon Hen? What's going on here?
I thought that Aragorn saying, "...Or do you choose to forget..." came across pretty strong. By suggesting that Boromir had a choice in the matter indicates to me that Aragorn already suspects Boromir of ulterior motives, and has put him on notice: "I'm watching you!"
Aragorn and Legolas scout ahead.
`Peril lies ahead on every southward road,' answered Aragorn. `Wait for us one day. If we do not return in that time, you will know that evil has indeed befallen us. Then you must take a new leader and follow him as best you can.'
2. Who would that be, do you suppose?
I would expect an immediate power-struggle between Boromir and Frodo. Frodo knows exactly what needs done, and Boromir implacably opposes that in favor of plans of his own. Gimli is a sturdy follower, but not a leader--of those remaining, he alone never leads anyone at any time, past or future (well, maybe a handful of men at Helm's deep, for an hour or so, but only in his area of expertise, repairing a blasted culvert.) Merry and Pippin haven't even figured out yet why they're along for the ride, and need the crucible of experience to forge them into leaders later. Sam doesn't yet know just how much leadership capability he has.
Boromir would try persuasion, and in that way get all except for Sam in his camp. Frodo would remain obdurate, driving Boromir to violence. At that point all the rest would swing around in Frodo's favor, in which case only murdering them all would avail him. Even then someone might still escape to rescue Frodo (or the Ring, in the event of Frodo's demise) later. It would be a real mess!
3. Why are they all so tired instead of just the two men? Why are they so gloomy?
Scrambling over steep, stony ground, carrying their supplies, would wear anyone out (except possibly Legolas.) Keep in mind also that the ancient builders pitched the stairs for the long legs of men, leaving the dwarf and the hobbits at a disadvantage. Just imagine trying to maneuver rough, time-eroded, knee-high stairs while carrying a heavy load!
As for gloom, how could they not be gloomy? They're all going through Lorien-withdrawal, with the prospect of either Mordor or endless battle ahead of them.
'Well, here we are, and here we must pass another night,' said Boromir. `We need sleep, and even if Aragorn had a mind to pass the Gates of Argonath by night, we are all too tired-except, no doubt, our sturdy dwarf.'
Gimli made no reply: he was nodding as he sat.
4. After his tough talk earlier, Gimli didn’t help with the boats after all. Can you shed some light on Boromir and Gimli’s relationship and how it got to this point?
I have to admit to laughing at that line--Boromir had a point! Gimli brought it on himself. In any case, it was merely light teasing, such as friends might exchange in a crabby mood, and forget completely the next day.
I figure that Gimli, before this quest, lived surrounded almost exclusively by the company of other dwarves, except for trading expeditions where he met other species only on a business level. He grew up on patriotic songs about the greatness of dwarves and took his superiority for granted, much like any isolationist people would. He does not mean to boast beyond his measure, he just never before had to actually measure himself against those not of his kind. In some ways he gets as much of an education as the hobbits do, about the world beyond his accustomed borders.
5. Boromir is such a grumbler! Is he unjustified?
Not entirely. Aragorn has not been doing the best job possible, and someone like Boromir, groomed intensively to lead, can hardly help but sniff out the power vacuum and desire to pry it open wider, perhaps to create a window of opportunity for himself.
Aragorn needs Boromir to keep on confronting him. He has drifted for his entire life, doing good deeds here, there, and everywhere, but not learning kingship. Sure, he can command soldiers trained to follow orders, as he has done with his Rangers, and in disguise as Thorongil in Rohan and Gondor, but he needs to learn to hold together and guide ordinary folks under miserable conditions, and inspire their confidence. Yet his worries about inadequacy breeds more and more errors of judgment and becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy. He's too focused on himself, and misses too much.
When my grandfather was promoted, in the field, from the ranks to Chief Petty Officer (the naval equivalent of a sargent) he had no time for training on how to lead much beyond this one essential nugget: "Do something even if it's wrong!" This follows the same principle as the log-roller's admonition to keep moving no matter what. If you put your foot on a slippery log the wrong way, you keep moving so fast that your foot goes to the next log before it has time to slip. If you make a mistake leading in battle, make the next move real fast, and you can correct the error before it has time to impact you.
Aragorn makes a lot of mistakes throughout the book, starting with drifting off track towards the Ettinmoors when leading the hobbits to Rivendell. Yet wasn't it Charles DeGaulle who said that the battle doesn't go to the side that makes the fewest mistakes, but rather the side that makes the best recoveries? A true leader knows how to keep the momentum up, how to revise as he goes, how to not only pick himself up out of the dirt and keep scrambling, but to inspire others to scramble behind him anyway, no matter how many times he falls. And especially how to change logs fast when he feels one slipping out from under him.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Mar 28 2008, 9:18pm
Post #3 of 16
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'I do not see why we should pass the Rapids or follow the River any further,' said Boromir. `If the Emyn Muil lie before us, then we can abandon these cockle-boats [cock·boat –noun a small boat, esp. one used as a tender. Also, cockleboat.] , and strike westward and southward, until we come to the Entwash and cross into my own land.'
"Tom Bombadil!
Whither be you going,
Bobbing in a cockle-boat,
Down the river rowing?"
-Bombadil Goes Boating
"I at least have a mind to stand in that high place again, before I decide my further course."
“Again”?
1. Does Boromir not know or does he choose to forget the North Stair, and the high seat upon Amon Hen? What's going on here?
He’s the son of a Steward, not the son of a king. I don’t think he’d necessarily know about all the places the old kings hung out. Aragorn, raised in lore to be High King, would. King Aragorn is rubbing Peasant Boromir’s nose in the knowledge. (Now Faramir probably would. In Minas Tirith High School no doubt Boromir was the captain of the football team, and Faramir was the straight A nerd. I bet Boromir gave Faramir lots of noogies.)
2. Who would that be, do you suppose?
Boromir has the previous proven leadership ability and the strength of limb and will. It’s odd that if Aragorn had his suspicions he would have left Boromir behind rather than taking him along. Then again, maybe Aragorn is thinking if he gives trust he’ll get trust.
But personally, my money would be on Merry.
3. Why are they all so tired instead of just the two men?
Somebody had to carry the supplies. Plus the constant noise of the rapids would tend to fatigue one mentally as well.
Why are they so gloomy?
Despite all their hard traveling they have more of the same road tomorrow.
4. After his tough talk earlier, Gimli didn’t help with the boats after all. Can you shed some light on Boromir and Gimli’s relationship and how it got to this point?
It’s a guy thing. Boromir doubtless respects Gimli a great deal.
5. Boromir is such a grumbler! Is he unjustified?
It’s a soldier thing. Really, the time to get worried is when a soldier isn’t grumbling. That’s when trouble is brewing.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Mar 29 2008, 1:35am
Post #4 of 16
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Boromir - It's all his father's fault
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1. Does Boromir not know or does he choose to forget the North Stair, and the high seat upon Amon Hen? What's going on here?
I think that Aragorn is simply saying to Boromir, "We are not leaving the river before we get to the point where I can get to climb to Amon Hen, so cool your jets about trying to get us to come to Minas Tirith already." Simple as that.
Aragorn and Legolas scout ahead.
`Peril lies ahead on every southward road,' answered Aragorn. `Wait for us one day. If we do not return in that time, you will know that evil has indeed befallen us. Then you must take a new leader and follow him as best you can.'
2. Who would that be, do you suppose?
Pippin of course. 
I think if we were to look honestly at the situation, even if Aragorn left alone, Boromir would obviously be the dominant personality & the most qualified in leadership skills.
The scouts return in a couple of hours. Aragron and Boromir carry the surprisingly light boats across land to avoid the rapids.
Already the short afternoon was past, and a dim cloudy dusk was closing in. They sat beside the water listening to the confused rush and roar of the Rapids hidden in the mist; they were tired and sleepy, and their hearts were as gloomy as the dying day.
3. Why are they all so tired instead of just the two men? Why are they so gloomy?
The text says that though the boats were light 'it took the strength of two men over the ground the Company now had to cross' & 'the task proved hard indeed'.
The reason all are exhausted is: 'the others toiled & scrambled after them with the baggage' - through 'briars & fallen stones' - no wonder Gimli et all were exhausted......
Gloomy? Because they were tired & it was a gloomy day, plus the weight of the decision of whether to go to Mordor or Minas Tirith I suppose.
4. After his tough talk earlier, Gimli didn’t help with the boats after all. Can you shed some light on Boromir and Gimli’s relationship and how it got to this point?
Boromir's just grumpy with everyone at this point as lust for the Ring is eating him up. Plus, he's probably got a huge ego from being a spoiled brat to begin with.......
5. Boromir is such a grumbler! Is he unjustified?
See above.
A grumbler is always justified in his own eyes......
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Isis
Nevrast
Mar 29 2008, 11:16am
Post #5 of 16
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Aragorn and Legolas scout ahead.
`Peril lies ahead on every southward road,' answered Aragorn. `Wait for us one day. If we do not return in that time, you will know that evil has indeed befallen us. Then you must take a new leader and follow him as best you can.'
2. Who would that be, do you suppose?
This is like that puzzle/problem where you have to transport a certain number of people across a river and there are various permuations of who can and can't go in a boat together or get left on either bank together. No matter which way you slice it it's hard to get around selecting Aragorn and Legolas as the two scouts. But this option is certainly fraught with peril for the reminainder of the Fellowship. Boromir wants to take the Ring (and Frodo too, if necessary!) to Gondor. And how could Aragorn expect the hobbits (and Gimli) to dissuade Boromir without conflict at some point? Boromir made it clear from the start that he thinks destroying the Ring is a bad idea AND that he intends to go to Gondor. Elrond said that the Fellowship are not compelled to follow the Ring-bearer further than they wish. There are plenty of potentially REALLY bad outcomes hanging on this choice Aragorn makes.
I'm not sure that I ever considered before quite how important this choice is. Of course, you can say: but Aragorn is super powered-up and invincible in combat (I am reminded of Pippin's 'single arrow' comment to Denethor though), so there's never the slightest danger that he won't come back and lead them again. Is it a poor decision though?
For me this sheds new light on Aragorn's despairing 'all that I do goes amiss' comment at the start of TTT. Although, he precedes that with 'an ill fate is on me this day'. Hmm. A poor craftsman leader always blames his tools fate.
'Take now this Ring,' he said; 'for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill.'
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Curious
Gondolin
Mar 29 2008, 11:22am
Post #6 of 16
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1. Does Boromir not know or does he choose to forget the North Stair, and the high seat upon Amon Hen? What's going on here?
Boromir wants the Ring to come to Minas Tirith. Aragorn wants to keep their options open.
Aragorn and Legolas scout ahead.
`Peril lies ahead on every southward road,' answered Aragorn. `Wait for us one day. If we do not return in that time, you will know that evil has indeed befallen us. Then you must take a new leader and follow him as best you can.'
2. Who would that be, do you suppose?
Thank heavens it doesn't come to that, because the only person familiar with the area is Boromir! Among the hobbits it would be Frodo, and I have a feeling Gimli would defer to Frodo as well. Indeed even Aragorn defers to Frodo right now regarding the path the Ring must take.
The scouts return in a couple of hours. Aragron and Boromir carry the surprisingly light boats across land to avoid the rapids.
Already the short afternoon was past, and a dim cloudy dusk was closing in. They sat beside the water listening to the confused rush and roar of the Rapids hidden in the mist; they were tired and sleepy, and their hearts were as gloomy as the dying day.
3. Why are they all so tired instead of just the two men? Why are they so gloomy?
They're "tired and sleepy" because it is bedtime, but they are gloomy because soon they must make a difficult decision, a decision they have deferred for a couple of weeks. Aragorn, as the leader of the company, may also be responsible, because Aragorn has been in a deep depression ever since Gandalf "died." We don't see inside his head, but he has been muttering under his breath, and hasn't done much to cheer anyone up. And at this point Aragorn is also physically tired, since he is one of the two men.
'Well, here we are, and here we must pass another night,' said Boromir. `We need sleep, and even if Aragorn had a mind to pass the Gates of Argonath by night, we are all too tired-except, no doubt, our sturdy dwarf.'
Gimli made no reply: he was nodding as he sat.
4. After his tough talk earlier, Gimli didn’t help with the boats after all. Can you shed some light on Boromir and Gimli’s relationship and how it got to this point?
Gimli's a bit short to help with the boats. I'm sure he was physically fit to do so. But Gimli does present an inviting target for Boromir's dig, since he did talk tough. Actually, I don't think Boromir and Gimli have a good or bad relationship; I don't think they have much of a relationship at all. Boromir's real targets are Aragorn and Frodo; Boromir wants to persuade them to come to Minas Tirith, or alternatively to persuade everyone else to question their decisions if they don't come to Minas Tirith. In this case he is really questioning Aragorn's decision to portage instead of abandoning the boats.
5. Boromir is such a grumbler! Is he unjustified?
Of course he is unjustified. It's all a ploy to persuade the company to abandon the "cockle-boats" and come to Minas Tirith. And Boromir also has leadership issues. It's a wonder he got along so well with his father. I would think he would drive any leader crazy.
(This post was edited by Curious on Mar 29 2008, 11:23am)
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Entwife Wandlimb
Menegroth
Mar 29 2008, 3:50pm
Post #7 of 16
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I really try to only ask questions to which I don't know the answer. After reading your comments about Gimli and Boromir's relationship (or lack of it, as Curious said), I wanted to look into it a bit more to it and went digging.
There really aren't that many exchanges between Gimli and Boromir. Here are some of them:
The Ring Goes South
'I wonder if this is a contrivance of the Enemy,' said Boromir. "They say in my land that he can govern the storms in the Mountains of Shadow that stand upon the borders of Mordor. He has strange powers and many allies.'
'His arm has grown long indeed,' said Gimli, `if he can draw snow down from the North to trouble us here three hundred leagues away.'
'His arm has grown long,' said Gandalf.
…
`We cannot go further tonight,' said Boromir. `Let those call it the wind who will; there are fell voices on the air; and these stones are aimed at us.'
`I do call it the wind,' said Aragorn. `But that does not make what you say untrue. There are many evil and unfriendly things in the world that have little love for those that go on two legs, and yet are not in league with Sauron, but have purposes of their own. Some have been in this world longer than he.'
'Caradhras was called the Cruel, and had an ill name, said Gimli, `long years ago, when rumour of Sauron had not been heard in these lands.'
…
`Ah, it is as I said,' growled Gimli. 'It was no ordinary storm. It is the ill will of Caradhras. He does not love Elves and Dwarves, and that drift was laid to cut off our escape.'
'But happily your Caradhras has forgotten that you have Men with you,' said Boromir, who came up at that moment. `And doughty Men too, if I may say it; though lesser men with spades might have served you better. Still, we have thrust a lane through the drift; and for that all here may be grateful who cannot run as light as Elves.'
A Journey in the Dark
Gandalf. 'But the question is: who will follow me, if I lead you there? '
'I will,' said Gimli eagerly.
…
`I will not go,' said Boromir; 'not unless the vote of the whole company is against me. '
(wolves attack)
Through the throat of one huge leader Aragorn passed his sword with a thrust; with a great sweep Boromir hewed the head off another. Beside them Gimli stood with his stout legs apart, wielding his dwarf-axe. The bow of Legolas was singing.
…
Gimli now walked ahead by the wizard's side, so eager was he to come to Moria.
…
Boromir muttered under his breath, but the echoing stone magnified the sound to a hoarse whisper that all could hear: `In the deep places of the world! And thither we are going against my wish. Who will lead us now in this deadly dark? '
'I will,' said Gandalf, 'and Gimli shall walk with me. Follow my staff! '
I think that Gimli and Boromir are both physically strong "men" who don't mince words (unlike Legolas and Aragorn, who are strong but speak with care). I suppose Pippin and Sam are similarly plain spoken, and I find that those four characters tend to say the things that make me smile. Boromir and Gimli are more likely to engage in banter than the nobler Ranger and elf. Unlike Boromir, Gimli is very loyal and an encouragement to his leader, be it Gandalf or Aragorn (as "sturdy follower," in the words of Dreamdeer). Boromir is always chomping at the bit, trying to go his own way. I think Gimli and Boromir tend to butt heads a little more obviously here after Moria since Aragorn is now leading and Boromir is more consumed with the Ring, but I do agree with Darkstone and the rest of you who think this teasing here is a light-hearted "guy thing." That's almost the scariest thing about Boromir here, less than 24 hours from treachery and madness, that he can banter lightly with Gimli.
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ArathornJax
Nargothrond
Mar 30 2008, 5:45pm
Post #8 of 16
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1. Does Boromir not know or does he choose to forget the North Stair, and the high seat upon Amon Hen? What's going on here?
This Boromir attempting to begin to manipulate the company to get gain the ring. By this time the ring has been working on Boromir for some time. He is thinking of defending his own city and kingdom with it, and thinking of the glory that would come to him by using it. Thus he is justifying in his mind his desire to take the ring or convince Frodo to give it to him so he can defend his people while glorifying himself. That is how the ring works I guess. It attempts to give you what you want justifying the action while seizing control of your ego until you have to surrender to it. We see this with Gandalf's rejection at Bag End, with Sam's vision after putting on the ring etc.
Aragorn and Legolas scout ahead.
`Peril lies ahead on every southward road,' answered Aragorn. `Wait for us one day. If we do not return in that time, you will know that evil has indeed befallen us. Then you must take a new leader and follow him as best you can.'
2. Who would that be, do you suppose?
Well, it would have to be either Boromir, Legolas or Gimli. I would have to agree that I think Legolas and Gimli would have followed what Frodo wanted with Boromir being quite persuasive or forceful of going to Minis Tirith. I think no matter what though, Frodo had grave reservations about Boromir and would have avoided going in his direction to the White City.
The scouts return in a couple of hours. Aragron and Boromir carry the surprisingly light boats across land to avoid the rapids.
Already the short afternoon was past, and a dim cloudy dusk was closing in. They sat beside the water listening to the confused rush and roar of the Rapids hidden in the mist; they were tired and sleepy, and their hearts were as gloomy as the dying day.
3. Why are they all so tired instead of just the two men? Why are they so gloomy?
The company is depressed because of the burden of decision that is coming. With Gandalf it would have been quite clear what would have happen. I imagine that Sam, Frodo, Gandalf and probably either Legolas or Gimli would have taken the Mordor route. The others would have made for Minis Tirith. That is not what has happen and now they are facing their decision (which Lorien had allowed them to postpone and forget about). So they are gloomy over what they are going to do both collectively and individually since no one except Frodo is under any obligation.
I have backpacked and used canoe's as part of a trip (while I have backpacked and portaged canoes several times) and those carrying the canoes get tired, while those carrying the equipment from the canoes and the packs and materials of those carrying them adds to their burdens. In rocky terrain this is made more complicated and fatiguing. Thus just the mere physical act of what they were doing would wear them out, but when combined with their gloom, it becomes a depressing experience.
'Well, here we are, and here we must pass another night,' said Boromir. `We need sleep, and even if Aragorn had a mind to pass the Gates of Argonath by night, we are all too tired-except, no doubt, our sturdy dwarf.'
Gimli made no reply: he was nodding as he sat.
4. After his tough talk earlier, Gimli didn’t help with the boats after all. Can you shed some light on Boromir and Gimli’s relationship and how it got to this point?
Well, Gimli is simply a wimp. In reality I think this is just friendly banter that goes on between the two and has been pointed out.
5. Boromir is such a grumbler! Is he unjustified?
I covered this up in 1. I think that Boromir is grumbling because he is a solider and wants action, not strategy. Also, the ring is bearing on him and beginning to take its toll on him.
" . . . (we are ) too engrossed in thinking of everything as a preparation or training or making one fit -- for what? At any minute it is what we are and are doing, not what we plan to be and do that counts."
J.R.R. Tolkien in his 6 October 1940 letter to his son Michael Tolkien.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Mar 30 2008, 9:20pm
Post #9 of 16
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between Boromir and Gimli might not necessarily be completely light-hearted. Bantering between guys can be pretty competitive, and may conceal some real rivalry. After all, Gimli began this with a boast of the old Anglo-Saxon type, and boasts like that were far from being light-hearted jests.
Perhaps it's an indication that if Aragorn and Legolas really hadn't come back from their reconnaissance mission, there would have been some tension between Boromir and Gimli for the leadership - and based on this bantering remark, I think Boromir would have pushed his own position very hard. (In the end though it shouldn't have made much difference - Frodo already knows what he has to do, and would perhaps have been pushed to "screw himself up" and do it a bit sooner, that's all.)
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Entwife Wandlimb
Menegroth
Mar 30 2008, 10:11pm
Post #10 of 16
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How does this trip compare with your experience?
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I have backpacked and used canoe's as part of a trip (while I have backpacked and portaged canoes several times) and those carrying the canoes get tired, while those carrying the equipment from the canoes and the packs and materials of those carrying them adds to their burdens. In rocky terrain this is made more complicated and fatiguing. Thus just the mere physical act of what they were doing would wear them out, but when combined with their gloom, it becomes a depressing experience.
I have no idea if Tolkien was experienced in this sort of river expedition, but I wondered if this chapter would be believable to an experience waterman (is that the word?). As you read this chapter, are the logistics believable? Does it generally ring true, as in this portage story, or do things stand out to you as unlikely based on your experience?
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ArathornJax
Nargothrond
Mar 30 2008, 11:45pm
Post #11 of 16
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I have no idea if Tolkien was experienced in this sort of river expedition, but I wondered if this chapter would be believable to an experience waterman (is that the word?). As you read this chapter, are the logistics believable? Does it generally ring true, as in this portage story, or do things stand out to you as unlikely based on your experience?
There are some differences between my experience and Tolkien. First, our clothing is lighter overall then what the company had. Second, our food and supplies were probably overall lighter thanks to dehydrated/backpacking food. Also, though the Elven boats were light, they were still made of wood where today's canoes and kayak's have modern materials that make them stronger and lighter. Also when you canoe/backpack or portage canoe you spend a lot of the time in boat and thus can take more materials to make the trip more enjoyable. In terms of the time, Tolkien was somewhat realistic. We had a portage where we had 4 male adults, 4 female adults and 5 kids ages 10 to 15. The portage sounds similar and we used everyone to help. What would have been nice to know is if they had decided to go in boats beyond the falls how long that portage would have took with the distance down, and then going back up a short but steep set up steps. With the Hobbits I think it would have taken more time.
" . . . (we are ) too engrossed in thinking of everything as a preparation or training or making one fit -- for what? At any minute it is what we are and are doing, not what we plan to be and do that counts."
J.R.R. Tolkien in his 6 October 1940 letter to his son Michael Tolkien.
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sador
Gondolin
Mar 31 2008, 9:12pm
Post #12 of 16
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1. Does Boromir not know or does he choose to forget the North Stair, and the high seat upon Amon Hen? What's going on here?
Well, the high seat didn't help Aragorn much, did it? It kept him away while the Fellowship was disintegrating. And what good would it have been? To Boromir. I mean, beging your pardon.
Aragorn isn't going there in search of information, but of inspiration. Like a returning king, he wants to view his country from afar, and perhaps pray for the ability to rise to the stature of Isildur and Anarion. Maybe there he will decide on his course.
Boromir knows his course. And he "knows" what the Fellowship should do. Why waste time?
2. Who would that be, do you suppose?
Boromir, of course. Put this down to another slip of leadership on Aragorn's side. But Frodo would have escaped. (by the way, Aragonjax, Legolas was one of the scouts, so "if we don't return" negates him as well)
4. After his tough talk earlier, Gimli didn’t help with the boats after all. Can you shed some light on Boromir and Gimli’s relationship and how it got to this point?
Boromir doesn't seem a very nice person. And Gimli seems to be a boaster, who might become a butt-end when he fails to prove himself (consider his arguments with Legolas about resting on the chase after the Uruk-hai, and his near-failure to take the Paths of the Dead).
Which means the movies weren't that wrong.
5. Boromir is such a grumbler! Is he unjustified?
From the hobbits' point of view, with the benefit of hindsight - well, he was unjustified.
But could Gimli's boasting, and putting himself above the Men (which proved wrong) - symbolise to him the whole counsel of Elrond and Gandalf, who in their contempt for "true hearted Men" came up with a completely harebrained, suicidical plan?
"For many long years I have pondered" - Galadriel
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 22 2009, 8:42am
Post #13 of 16
(1604 views)
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And the luggage.
Why are they all so tired instead of just the two men?
After his tough talk earlier, Gimli didn’t help with the boats after all.
As Tolkien Forever notes, it is only in carrying the boats over the rocky terrain from the shoreline to the portage-path that the Men alone can help. The others carry both boats and luggage along that path.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 22 2009, 8:42am
Post #14 of 16
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Quite so: when had Aragorn previously been on Amon Hen? //
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 22 2009, 8:43am
Post #15 of 16
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“waterman (is that the word?)”
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It is – and Tolkien uses “waterman” in this very chapter. (For a hobbit.)
But I don’t think he had any such experience himself.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Mar 22 2009, 2:51pm
Post #16 of 16
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Maybe in a previous incarnation. Like Trotter. /
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******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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