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Beren IV
Mithlond
Feb 26 2008, 6:10am
Post #1 of 19
(2428 views)
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The Bridge of Khazad-dûm III: The Battle of Mazarbul
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Gandalf now announces to the company that he knows their location, and that it will be clear marching on out. Then, suddenly, there are drum-beats, war horns are blown out in the hall, and it's obvious that the orcs have finally found them. Legolas and Gimli repeat lines from the Book of Mazarbul. Gandalf scolds himself for his delay. Aragorn and Boromir blockade the door, but they keep the east door open at Gandalf's instigation, so that they can flee that way, when they can. Aragorn announces that they cannot flee until they have made them "fear the Chamber of Mazarbul", and feels Anduril's edges.
1. Why do the orcs find the Fellowship now, two nights after Pippin threw the stone into the well? Did Pippin really tip them off, or was that something else?
2. Why does Tolkien have Legolas and Gimli repeat lines out of the book? Is it just to make the reader feel desperate?
3. Why is Anduril mentioned as "his [Aragorn's] sword, Anduril"? Shouldn't we know its name by now?
Gandalf steps out for a moment, emits a flash of light, then ducks back in as arrows come whizzing by. He quickly declares that there is no escape that way as there are a lot of orcs and at least one troll, but the other way seems still open.
4. Why are the orcs so unaffected by Gandalf's magic, whereas all of the previous enemies, even the Black Riders, were driven off by it?
5. Why can the Fellowship not kill trolls? They are heroes, are they not? Or is it just a numbers thing?
The troll starts squeezing through the door. Boromir's sword proves useless against it's stone-like skin, but Frodo somehow feels the strength to stab it in the foot. Sting goes in. Elven swords are magical! The troll retreats, but the orcs batter the door down with rams and hammers and charge in. There is a brief but ferocious battle; Legolas kills two, Sam one, Gimli one, and Aragorn and Boromir "many". Thirteen fall in total (so between the two of them A&B kill nine), and the rest run away. Only Sam is injured, and it is a minor scrape.
6. If Elven swords are that sharp, then you would think that every race would covet them, and that Men in particular would dig up old Elven battlefields to loot the swords of the fallen. Why is it that Boromir cannot get his hands on a good Elven sword, taken from the fallen in the Last Alliance?
7. Why are the orcs so cowardly all of a sudden?
At this moment, an orc chieftain, "almost man-high, steps up and stabs Frodo with his spear. Aragorn then cuts his head in half, helm and all, with a flash of white flame when it hits. The rest of the orcs flee, and the Fellowship goes out the other door, hoping that their enemies' fear of them will give them a head start on their escape.
8. How big are Orcs? Man-high is used in places to represent a Númenórean noble height, namely 6' 4". This is quite a bit taller than most real medieval men, and we get the understanding that orcs usually slouch. Is this Man-high chieftain 6' 4" while slouching or at his full height? And how broad are orcs?
9. Not surprisingly, Anduril also is a magical sword. We see that it can cleave through plate metal, which is something that no historical sword could do reliably, and emits "white flame" when doing so. What other powers does it have? Do these powers depend upon the fact that it has Aragorn to wield it? Do restrictions like these apply to Elven blades as well (i.e. why Boromir is without)?
10. Aragorn and Gandalf both think that Poor Frodo is "a very brave but dead Hobbit". Did you think this, too?
And now, the big question:
11. When you read this for the first time, now that you had encountered Orcs, what did you think of them? Were they any different from what you expected?
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
(This post was edited by Beren IV on Feb 26 2008, 6:14am)
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Feb 26 2008, 4:31pm
Post #2 of 19
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Man, I wish I could figure out how to 'cut & paste'....
1. I think it just took serveral days for the Orcs to track down the Fellowship after Pippin threw the rock in the well. The 'doom' after Pippin drops in the rock & the drums at the time the Orcs & Troll arrive at Chamber of Mazarbul make it certain that there is indeed a connection.
2. Who knows why JRRT has Legolas & Gimli read the lines twice. I never noticed .
3. The casual reader takes time to remember lots of names like Anduril from Narsil & Tolkien's got lots of names.
4.I take it that every time Gandalf 'throws off' some white light', it isn't magic, & this time, like earlier in the Mines, it's simply light. Plus, unlike with vthe Nazgul on Pelannor Fields, this is Gandalf the Grey, not Gandalf the White.
5. Who says the Fellowship can't kill Trolls? All they get is a foot to try.......
Do we see any other examples of swords on Troll arms?
Pippin does a fine job killing a troll later on.
6. An interesting question, but there are several good answers. First, Only Elven swords forged in the Elder days have extra power. Where would these be in abundance? Most of these Elves who had them died in Beleriand, which is buried under the Sea, or returned to Valinor. Where would one get one from the Last Aliance? The dead Marshes? Most of the dead lie under more water than can be retreived.....
So, these swords are not very prevailant & we can assume those still around belong to living High Elves still in Middle-earth.
7. Almost all of Tolkien's stories of Orc battles end with the main host of Orcs fleeing when a main captain gets killed or sudden death comes upon them, so this is nothing unusual.
8. Orcs are often no higher than Dwarves & Frodo & Sam passed for Orcs in Mordor. When being called 'man high', we can assume this orc-cheiftain was a normal man's height, not Numenorean. That would be stretching it a bit I think. Uruks, both 'Black Uruks of Mordor' & 'Uruk-Hai' bred by Saruman would be consistenly taller than your average run of the mill Orcs......
9. I don't think there is anything in the text to indicate Aragorn has a magical blade. It simply says that as the blade hits the helm, 'a white flame springs up'. This is the flash of metal on metal, the literary license, that's all. It's certainly not the blue light that occurs when Elvis blades of the Elder Days light up when Orcs are near & are mentioned repeatedly because there is never another 'magical' mentioning of Aragorn's blade. As far as anything magical about the vsword going through a helm, no, that's just vthe power of a great sword handled by a great swordsman.
10. It's so long ago (30 years), I don't remember.
11. It wasn't the first time I encountered Orcs. I encountered Goblins in The Hobbit, so I knew what to think.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Feb 26 2008, 4:56pm
Post #3 of 19
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1. Why do the orcs find the Fellowship now, two nights after Pippin threw the stone into the well?
I think the orcs knew they were there all the time. It’s just they’ve been waiting for the right place or right time to ambush the Fellowship. Maybe they were waiting to get everyone together and making plans. Or maybe they’re an anarco-sydicalist commune and the decision to attack the Fellowship had to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting by a two-thirds majority but they had trouble getting a quorum together.
Did Pippin really tip them off, or was that something else?
Pippin is a convenient scapegoat. It’s hard to believe somebody else didn’t make as much noise if not more during the three days. Are we supposed to believe Boromir didn’t toot his horn even once all that time, or that Aragorn didn’t occasionally go off and recite his lineage and go on and on about Anduril? Yeah, blame it all on the tweenager.
2. Why does Tolkien have Legolas and Gimli repeat lines out of the book?
To give a foreboding sense of deja vu. It’s a glitch in the Matrix. It happens whenever Tolkien changes something.
Is it just to make the reader feel desperate?
That too. History is repeating itself. Someone needs to start writing so the next group through has some last words to read.
3. Why is Anduril mentioned as "his [Aragorn's] sword, Anduril"?
To show The High Powers at work. If he hadn’t just had it reforged at Rivendell it would have been “his useless shard, Narsil”.
Shouldn't we know its name by now?
Maybe you, but with all the names Tolkien throws out there, it took me a while. Enough repetition and when it finally mattered I remembered.
Gandalf steps out for a moment, emits a flash of light, then ducks back in as arrows come whizzing by. He quickly declares that there is no escape that way as there are a lot of orcs and at least one troll, but the other way seems still open.
4. Why are the orcs so unaffected by Gandalf's magic, whereas all of the previous enemies, even the Black Riders, were driven off by it?
It’s called Power Seep. Gandalf is only As Powerful As He Needs To Be for any particular part of the story. In a few moments we’ll see Gandalf suffer The Worf Effect and be reduced to a Red Shirt in order to prove how serious the situation is.
5. Why can the Fellowship not kill trolls?
How can you kill rock?
They are heroes, are they not?
Yes and no.
Or is it just a numbers thing?
There’s only one troll. And it runs off.
The troll starts squeezing through the door. Boromir's sword proves useless against it's stone-like skin, but Frodo somehow feels the strength to stab it in the foot. Sting goes in. Elven swords are magical! The troll retreats, but the orcs batter the door down with rams and hammers and charge in. There is a brief but ferocious battle; Legolas kills two, Sam one, Gimli one, and Aragorn and Boromir "many". Thirteen fall in total (so between the two of them A&B kill nine), and the rest run away. Only Sam is injured, and it is a minor scrape.
6. If Elven swords are that sharp, then you would think that every race would covet them,…
Like, oh, say Elric’s Stormbringer? Anyway, remember they glow in the dark. Yeah, that’s gotta be real convenient when you’re sneaking up on a group of orcs in the middle of the night. Remember, a glowing artifact giving away his position in the dark is exactly how Isildur was killed.
…and that Men in particular would dig up old Elven battlefields to loot the swords of the fallen.
Yeah, and that how Elven zombies get their minimum daily requirement of “brraaiiinnssss!!”
Why is it that Boromir cannot get his hands on a good Elven sword, taken from the fallen in the Last Alliance?
Why would he want one? Remember, Men are very suspicious of Elves and their weird magical powers. Indeed, some wild eyed Fundamentalists might even go around destroying Elven statues and artifacts. Of course, we in the 21st century are much more enlightened than that. Unfortunately, not everyone today resides in the 21st century.
7. Why are the orcs so cowardly all of a sudden?
Lessee. The thirteen big aggressive orcs in the front are all dead, and none of them took out any of the invaders. If at first you don’t succeed, try a dozen more times, then run like heck. Nobody wants to be number fourteen, even if it is The Lucky Number.
At this moment, an orc chieftain, "almost man-high, steps up and stabs Frodo with his spear. Aragorn then cuts his head in half, helm and all, with a flash of white flame when it hits. The rest of the orcs flee, and the Fellowship goes out the other door, hoping that their enemies' fear of them will give them a head start on their escape.
8. How big are Orcs?
Bigger than a breadbox, smaller than a streetcar.
Man-high is used in places to represent a Númenórean noble height, namely 6' 4". This is quite a bit taller than most real medieval men, and we get the understanding that orcs usually slouch. Is this Man-high chieftain 6' 4" while slouching or at his full height?
They’re tall enough so their feet reach the ground.
And how broad are orcs?
Dunno. Tolkien doesn’t describe any female orcs.
9. Not surprisingly, Anduril also is a magical sword. We see that it can cleave through plate metal, which is something that no historical sword could do reliably, and emits "white flame" when doing so.
Not as clumsy or random as a club. An elegant weapon for a more civilized time.
What other powers does it have?
Obviously it’s a great can opener. And I’m sure there’s a secret magic word or two. Wonder what would happen if Aragorn said “Shazam!”
Do these powers depend upon the fact that it has Aragorn to wield it?
I’m sure it can Only Be Used By One Who Is Worthy.
Do restrictions like these apply to Elven blades as well (i.e. why Boromir is without)?
So you’re saying Elves booby-trap their weapons? No wonder everyone is suspicious of them and theirs!
10. Aragorn and Gandalf both think that Poor Frodo is "a very brave but dead Hobbit". Did you think this, too?
Nah. “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.” I remember the end of The Hobbit when Bilbo “died”. I also remember the end of Flight to the Ford. Yeah, Frodo’s just a little Weeble Wobble. He falls down but he gets right back up. And people wonder where Jackson got the idea.
And now, the big question:
11. When you read this for the first time, now that you had encountered Orcs, what did you think of them?
Rather lacking in description I thought.
Were they any different from what you expected?
I expected more teeth. And you’d think they’d say something.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Feb 26 2008, 4:59pm)
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Feb 26 2008, 5:36pm
Post #4 of 19
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I laughed my head off reading your answers, Darkstone! Thanks for the humor!
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Feb 26 2008, 6:23pm
Post #5 of 19
(2008 views)
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1. Why do the orcs find the Fellowship now, two nights after Pippin threw the stone into the well? Did Pippin really tip them off, or was that something else?
Well, I always strongly suspected that Gandalf's nicotine fit in the middle of the night had something to do with putting the orcs on their trail, orcs having a keen sense of smell and all. But there's just enough of a question to leave Pippin feeling nervous. I like the ambiguity, not quite knowing who, if anyone, to point the finger at. Still, it does signify something that the drums seemed to answer the dropped stone. They seemed quite deep and far away--it probably took them two days of racing to climb up and catch up.
2. Why does Tolkien have Legolas and Gimli repeat lines out of the book? Is it just to make the reader feel desperate?
I took it as Legolas and Gimli's "Oh bleep--so that's what they meant!"
3. Why is Anduril mentioned as "his [Aragorn's] sword, Anduril"? Shouldn't we know its name by now?
Any good writer knows that you need to repeat names more often than seems necessary to you, because nothing you write will ever be quite so vivid and memorable to the reader as it is in your own head. Unless, of course, the reader rereads it so often she has the books memorized. (I rather liked the idea implied in "Leaf by Niggle", that after death we might find our artistic efforts, always frustratingly short of the mark in life, completed and alive in heaven.)
4. Why are the orcs so unaffected by Gandalf's magic, whereas all of the previous enemies, even the Black Riders, were driven off by it?
Perhaps because they're drawing energy directly from his equal: a Balrog. Remember, both Gandalf and the Balrog are fire-maiar. Most of the fire maiar defected to Morgoth's side; Gandalf and Arien were among the few who did not. They are not merely in the same rank of strength--they draw upon the same kind of strength. One can cancel the other out, if he can catch the other off guard. When Gandalf finally learns that he's up against a Balrog, he says, "Now I understand."
Think about it. They were brothers.
5. Why can the Fellowship not kill trolls? They are heroes, are they not? Or is it just a numbers thing?
As Darkstone pointed out, Pippin did later kill a troll. But they were far too busy just trying to get out of there to bother hunting trophies. If the Troll skedaddled, then gladly so would they--preferably in the opposite direction.
6. If Elven swords are that sharp, then you would think that every race would covet them, and that Men in particular would dig up old Elven battlefields to loot the swords of the fallen. Why is it that Boromir cannot get his hands on a good Elven sword, taken from the fallen in the Last Alliance?
Galadriel's blessing of Anduril's sheath implies to me that it's the sheathes that hold the magic to keep an Elvish blade indestructable. Blades wind up abandoned in battlefields only when their owner dies; if nobody finds the time to pick up the sword, surely nobody would stick around to put it back in some dead elf's sheath before either retreating or advancing. Therefore thousand-year-old blades, abandoned in all weather for millenia and eventually working their way downward in the mud, would not survive in any shape to do battle. Sting, on the other hand, although old, remained in its origenal sheath.
7. Why are the orcs so cowardly all of a sudden?
I didn't figure them as cowardly--rather, clearing the way for the next assault, or perhaps attempting to draw their opponents into a trap. When you have a Balrog on your side, the sole purpose of the footsoldiers is to herd the enemy into his range, whether by attack or strategic retreat.
8. How big are Orcs? Man-high is used in places to represent a Númenórean noble height, namely 6' 4". This is quite a bit taller than most real medieval men, and we get the understanding that orcs usually slouch. Is this Man-high chieftain 6' 4" while slouching or at his full height? And how broad are orcs?
Orc size seemed to vary quite a bit--probably with as much difference in range as dogs have. Once you remove romance from the picture, it becomes possible to breed many different kinds of orcs for different tasks. Being underground creatures, shorter becomes more practical--you can then cut expense and energy on the bore of your tunnels. The occasional taller orc soon becomes hunchy from never being able to straighten, so you breed few of those, for special jobs, so that such an orc stands out for comment as being "man-high". I imagine that they'd mostly be bred for breadth, packing on the muscle in compensation for the height.
9. Not surprisingly, Anduril also is a magical sword. We see that it can cleave through plate metal, which is something that no historical sword could do reliably, and emits "white flame" when doing so. What other powers does it have? Do these powers depend upon the fact that it has Aragorn to wield it? Do restrictions like these apply to Elven blades as well (i.e. why Boromir is without)?
Interestingly enough, Anduril is a Halfelven blade--that is, elven smiths made it out of the shards of a human-made sword. It is not precisely the same sword that it used to be--hence the new name. Like Elrond, it might have subtle properties resulting from blending both heritages. As Elrond used his power of mixed blood to bring together the scholarship of all races, so the sword Anduril might have power to inspire unity between diverse groups--something quite useful to a leader of the Free Peoples.
As for how "reliably" a sword can cleave through a helmet, the reliability increases with the skill of the swordsman. And even if it doesn't succeed every time, it's worth trying, if only to give the helm-wearer a nasty enough concussion to knock him out of the battle.
As for restrictions, folks on both sides did work runes on their swords cursing their enemies, which is probably why the Trolls stashed Sting and two Elvish blades away rather than bearing them, along with all manner of fine clothes that would not fit them--a troll would more likely have hacked off his own toes trying to wield an elvish blade. However, a hobbit, a dwarf, and a wizard had no trouble using them, so I can't see a man having much of a problem.
Which begs an interesting question on the Hobbit: Since these objects were of no use to trolls, why stash them away in a treasure trove? Did they know a good fence? Who might they find willing to do business with trolls, who could then sell weapons to folks capable of wielding an elvish blade? (My personal speculation runs towards an ancestor of Bill Ferny's.)
10. Aragorn and Gandalf both think that Poor Frodo is "a very brave but dead Hobbit". Did you think this, too?
Nope. The first time I read it I compulsively snuck peaks ahead now and then, so I knew he'd survived. What the heck, I was just a kid. But I loved the comic relief of Aragorn's reaction when Frodo spoke! I wish they'd put that in the movie.
11. When you read this for the first time, now that you had encountered Orcs, what did you think of them? Were they any different from what you expected?
Having read the hobbit, they didn't surprise me. Worried me, yes. Surprised me, no.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on Feb 26 2008, 6:25pm)
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Feb 26 2008, 7:03pm
Post #6 of 19
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Wasn't Narsil forged by a Dwarf?
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Interestingly enough, Andúril is a Halfelven blade--that is, elven smiths made it out of the shards of a human-made sword. Aragorn later says that "Telchar first wrought it in the deeps of time."
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Feb. 25-Mar. 2 for "The Bridge of Khazad-dûm".
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Feb 26 2008, 7:36pm
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There are vseveral good points on your post, Dreamdeer.
The point about Gandalf being a 'fire Maia' is one I recently connected myself & never heard anyone else say - did you steal it from me? 
More on that when Gandalf fights Durin's Bane.
Interesting points about the size of Orcs too. I was going to put down that orcs of the mountains in TLOR are sometimes called 'Goblins' & there seems to be an implied difference in size there too, i.e., smaller.
The point about the elven sheaths is good too. I believe you are correct that they give protection to blades, but not special powers as Tolkien clearly states that this comes from 'being the work of Elven smithes forged in the Elder Days'. This also leads me to my one contridiction I have with you: That the Smithes of Rivendel gave Anduril special 'Half-Elven' properties' of semi-magic. Cannot be as it was no longer the Elder Days. The renaming of the sword was because it was not the same sword, only it's shards & this name, 'Flame of the West' was to inspire the West to come together under it's new found Heir of Isildur, as indeed happened.
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Feb 27 2008, 12:48am
Post #8 of 19
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I would have to say that Elven blades themselves stay fresh for thousands of years.
This does not explain how Narsil & the blades of the Men of Westernesse that Bombadil gives the hobbits from the barrow are still good after thousands of years though, so perhaps there's something to the 'blessing of the sheath' by Elves. Yet this doesn't explain the Dunedain of the North having mass amounts of blades in the barrows that have been blessed by the Elves.....
What did they do in the midst of war with Cardolan & Angmar? Cart every sheath to Rivendell to be blessed by Elrond & Glorfindel?
This presents a bit of a problem in the theory I believe.......
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Cyberia
Lindon
Feb 27 2008, 2:08am
Post #9 of 19
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Humans can make special blades too.
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Narsil was made by a great dwarven smith, Telchar, and first owned by an elf-lord. The name Narsil itself means 'fire' and 'white light'. I did get the impression that Narsil was also a magical blade, but not to the same degree as the great elven blades. Narsil is, IMO, akin to a 'mortal' blade with some additional magic, while the great elven blades can be thought of as 'blessed' weapons. You don't want to be on the business end of either one, but if you happen to be an evil creature, you'd fear the 'blessed' blades far more.
The Barrow Blades are human-made 'mortal' blades, but they are enchanted as well.
So to answer why the elven blades aren't so highly in demand: Humans can make special blades too.
(This post was edited by Cyberia on Feb 27 2008, 2:10am)
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Feb 27 2008, 3:47am
Post #10 of 19
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Thank you for correcting me. For some reason I didn't realize that Telchar was a dwarf. I guess the name didn't sound dwarvish to me--shows what I know.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Feb 27 2008, 3:50am
Post #11 of 19
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Well, things often do stay preserved in hermetically sealed tombs that might have crumbled if simply abandoned in a field. That's why we often know more about an ancient people's funerary customs than anything else.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Feb 27 2008, 3:56am
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It just sort of dawned on me gradually what Gandalf was, after I read that the various maiar affiliated with various elements. I started to think, "Wait a minute...good at fireworks, can light a fire in the middle of a snowstorm, likes to smoke, is dismissed for playing with smoke and flashes of light, has the elvish ring of fire, lights fires of inspiration in people's hearts...there's a pattern here!" And then when I realized the meaning of his challenge to the Balrog as pitting fire against fire, it dawned on me that if Radagast (called an earth maia) was his "cousin" (as he said to Beorn) then the Balrog would be his brother! What he must have felt!
But we're jumping ahead here. I must restrain myself.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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ArathornJax
Nargothrond
Feb 27 2008, 4:53am
Post #13 of 19
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1. Why do the orcs find the Fellowship now, two nights after Pippin threw the stone into the well? Did Pippin really tip them off, or was that something else?
Yep, blame the tween for it and as a typical tween, he doesn't admit fault, nor does he take responsibility. Typical tween, so yep, Pippin tipped them off and got paid at Isengard with a barrel or two of pipe weed.
I think the Orcs knew they were there before Pippin and the stone, but that went to confirm that someone was in the upper halls.
2. Why does Tolkien have Legolas and Gimli repeat lines out of the book? Is it just to make the reader feel desperate?
Perhaps it goes to show that Gimli and Legolas were starting to bond and thus sharing the same thoughts. I think it is repeated in order to emphasize the danger.
3. Why is Anduril mentioned as "his [Aragorn's] sword, Anduril"? Shouldn't we know its name by now?
I think at some point, the person carrying the sword claims it. Anduril though forged from Narsil, is not Narsil, but a reforged or new sword. I think more importantly Tolkien is signifying Aragorn's role in the Fellowship as second to Gandalf, and who will soon take over.
4. Why are the orcs so unaffected by Gandalf's magic, whereas all of the previous enemies, even the Black Riders, were driven off by it?
We don't know what happen on the other side of the door, nor how many he did slay. Also, Gandalf may have been more concern with escape than with making a stand.
5. Why can the Fellowship not kill trolls? They are heroes, are they not? Or is it just a numbers thing?
Nasty things Trolls. Heroes yes, but that doesn't mean they always win or kill everything. I think sheer numbers are coming into play here, and the desire not to let the ring fall into their hands.
6. If Elven swords are that sharp, then you would think that every race would covet them, and that Men in particular would dig up old Elven battlefields to loot the swords of the fallen. Why is it that Boromir cannot get his hands on a good Elven sword, taken from the fallen in the Last Alliance?
As said earlier, they are magical . . . . and as such retain their brightness and edge. As far as Boromir goes, wading around the Dead Marshes just wasn't his thing. Defending Osgiliath and the realm of Gondor took up too much time. Also, by this time, even Lothlorien has many mysterious legends about it and I'm sure that for many in Gondor, many things about Elves are a mystery and as such, more legend. People like Boromir have more important things to do then search for a legend or a myth.
7. Why are the orcs so cowardly all of a sudden?
It's a tribal thing. Cut off the head and the others fall apart. So until a new chiefton comes along, their command and control. Same things happens at the Battle of the Five Armies when Bolg was killed, the Goblin/Orc army fell apart, and the similar thing seems to happen at the Battle of Greenfields with Bullroarer Took.
8. How big are Orcs? Man-high is used in places to represent a Númenórean noble height, namely 6' 4". This is quite a bit taller than most real medieval men, and we get the understanding that orcs usually slouch. Is this Man-high chieftain 6' 4" while slouching or at his full height? And how broad are orcs?
Orcs come in many sizes and are of a variety. I don't think man-high here represents a Numenorean height, as they were not typical of men in Middle Earth. Numenorean's were not typical of men in ME, and by the end of the third age, most had fallen in life-span and in height (I am supposing on the last). So I would say 5'6 to 5'10 would be the height standing (with 5'10 being the exception).
9. Not surprisingly, Anduril also is a magical sword. We see that it can cleave through plate metal, which is something that no historical sword could do reliably, and emits "white flame" when doing so. What other powers does it have? Do these powers depend upon the fact that it has Aragorn to wield it? Do restrictions like these apply to Elven blades as well (i.e. why Boromir is without)?
Why this thing with Boromir and magical swords (it's come up twice now and just curious)? We know that it filled Orcs and Men with fear; we know that at Helm's Deep the sword inspired the Rohirimm soldiers to fight, perhaps giving them hope.
10. Aragorn and Gandalf both think that Poor Frodo is "a very brave but dead Hobbit". Did you think this, too?
No, I thought he was wounded because of the scene at Rivendell where Bilbo gave him the Mithral Mail Shirt.
And now, the big question:
11. When you read this for the first time, now that you had encountered Orcs, what did you think of them? Were they any different from what you expected?
They seemed like a lot of cannon fodder to me, not really being able to be too successful. Similar to the Soviet doctrine in the 1970's to lose a lot of troops, tanks, planes but to overtake the enemy with sheer numbers.
Let us then be up and doing
With a heart for any fate;
Still achieving, still pursuing,
Learn to labor and to wait.
H.W. Longfellow
(This post was edited by ArathornJax on Feb 27 2008, 4:57am)
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Cactus Wren
Lindon
Feb 27 2008, 9:25am
Post #14 of 19
(1925 views)
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1. Why do the orcs find the Fellowship now, two nights after Pippin threw the stone into the well? Did Pippin really tip them off, or was that something else?
Well, I always strongly suspected that Gandalf's nicotine fit in the middle of the night had something to do with putting the orcs on their trail, orcs having a keen sense of smell and all.
It occurs to me, just now as I'm reading this, that Tolkien himself would never have realized the Orcs might smell Gandalf's tobacco smoke. As an habitual smoker himself, Tolkien was almost certainly somewhat anosmic. I've never met a smoker who realized how strong tobacco smells to a non-smoker.
(Am I the only person who still wants to scoop up Sean Bean's voice and lick it off a spoon like chocolate sauce?)
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Feb 28 2008, 3:19am
Post #15 of 19
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The Dúnedain who made the wapons you name were Men, yes, but I wouldn't call the Dúnedain Human...
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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7ofEowyn
Lindon
Mar 1 2008, 5:22am
Post #16 of 19
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1. Why do the orcs find the Fellowship now, two nights after Pippin threw the stone into the well? Did Pippin really tip them off, or was that something else?
My mind always heard that first doom of the drum as a question mark. The stone made a noise, some one was telegraphing a “whuh?” And waited for a response. When no response was forthcoming, they started checking with the others. Something in the form of “who the heck is up there makin’ that racket?” and then the “what do you mean someone’s up there?” followed by the requisite “they must die.” Surely there must have been a “I smell man flesh” in there some where.
2. Why does Tolkien have Legolas and Gimli repeat lines out of the book? Is it just to make the reader feel desperate?
It’s definitely to set the mood … but also there is the sense of treading a dead man’s path unable to change what has happened. Add that the lines kinda fit the moment, those words could have just fell out of their mouths without having read the book … NAH, it was to give us the creeps.
3. Why is Anduril mentioned as "his [Aragorn's] sword, Anduril"? Shouldn't we know its name by now?
Oh, honey … That would be a falling back the rhythm of the bards & epics. I just finished the Odyssey. I can’t say that I will miss the phrases: “discreet Telemachus”, “heedful Penelope” or “long-tried royal Odysseus” anytime soon.
4. Why are the orcs so unaffected by Gandalf's magic, whereas all of the previous enemies, even the Black Riders, were driven off by it?
I thought he was just checking what they were up against. Nothing in the text indicates he was using the light to scare them or to deliver any power, but I can see where the question comes from.
5. Why can the Fellowship not kill trolls? They are heroes, are they not? Or is it just a numbers thing?
Now that you mention it, at least Aragorn & Gandalf should’ve taken a stab at the thing. What’s up with that?
6. If Elven swords are that sharp, then you would think that every race would covet them, and that Men in particular would dig up old Elven battlefields to loot the swords of the fallen. Why is it that Boromir cannot get his hands on a good Elven sword, taken from the fallen in the Last Alliance?
-&-
9. Not surprisingly, Anduril also is a magical sword. We see that it can cleave through plate metal, which is something that no historical sword could do reliably, and emits "white flame" when doing so. What other powers does it have? Do these powers depend upon the fact that it has Aragorn to wield it? Do restrictions like these apply to Elven blades as well (i.e. why Boromir is without)?
This is a lame answer but … tradition. Near religious observance of tradition & honoring the dead. No one takes a sword, it is given or not. I would guess it would be assumed that one would call down a curse to loot the dead.
7. Why are the orcs so cowardly all of a sudden?
They work on basic mob mentality, they have no fear but are caught short when a ring leader goes down. But they’ll be back … they get all mad as a group.
10. Aragorn and Gandalf both think that Poor Frodo is "a very brave but dead Hobbit". Did you think this, too?
Nah … I’d already seen the ‘toons.
11. When you read this for the first time, now that you had encountered Orcs, what did you think of them? Were they any different from what you expected?
Um … same as fer #10.
--- "I can fight" ---
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sador
Gondolin
Mar 2 2008, 11:01pm
Post #17 of 19
(1935 views)
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Yes, I know you didn't ask about it - but I thought it's quite intriguing, that Sam is the first hobbit goblin-slayer since Bandrobas the Bullroarer! Isn't it cool?
1. Why do the orcs find the Fellowship now, two nights after Pippin threw the stone into the well? Did Pippin really tip them off, or was that something else?
Well' that's a good place to trap them. And I think the orcs didn't really like the vicinity of the Watcher.
I've never thought Pippin's stone tipped them off, but it might have alerted the Balrog (if he was asleep, and not active in Caradhras' attack before - I'm surprised you didn't raise this question again).
2. Why does Tolkien have Legolas and Gimli repeat lines out of the book? Is it just to make the reader feel desperate?
That's the natural reaction. Things you've read, and which left an impression, run in your mind. But it's interesting that Legolas and Gimli act as a sort of Greek chorus here - and they also are those who identify the Balrog later in the chapter, and discuss metaphysics in 'The Last Debate'.
3. Why is Anduril mentioned as "his [Aragorn's] sword, Anduril"? Shouldn't we know its name by now?
Why should we? I think it's been mentioned only once before, as were old Noakes, Lindir and Frar. How many of these would you identify if I threw them at you while you were first reading? How many do so now?
4. Why are the orcs so unaffected by Gandalf's magic, whereas all of the previous enemies, even the Black Riders, were driven off by it?
Arrows whizzing past could be wild shots before flight; compare the orcs' shooting at Eomer's Riders in 'The Uruk Hai'. Once the door is closed, and "they have a cave-troll", they can safely regroup.
5. Why can the Fellowship not kill trolls? They are heroes, are they not? Or is it just a numbers thing?
The troll didn't really come close enough to be killed.
As someone asked before, why does only Boromir strike at the troll? Is Aragorn being clever, not striking once there is nothing to gain (Anduril might be too long for a stab like Frodo's), or is Boromir braver? I think the answer is more simple: Boromir stood by the westren-door, while Aragorn was at the other end of the hall (note that Boromir went for the orc-chieftain first, too).
6. If Elven swords are that sharp, then you would think that every race would covet them, and that Men in particular would dig up old Elven battlefields to loot the swords of the fallen. Why is it that Boromir cannot get his hands on a good Elven sword, taken from the fallen in the Last Alliance?
I know of only one creature who tried to search the corpses at the Dead Marshes - Gollum. And even he couldn't reach them.
7. Why are the orcs so cowardly all of a sudden?
I don't even begin to understand your question. The orcs have driven the enemy to flight, along a very perilous way. While they are flying, a great chieftain prepares to attack them in the rear, and you call this temporary retreat cowardly?
And anyway, on your previous discussion you were wondering why the dwarves disintegrated when Balin fell. So it's not just the orcs.
9. Not surprisingly, Anduril also is a magical sword. We see that it can cleave through plate metal, which is something that no historical sword could do reliably, and emits "white flame" when doing so. What other powers does it have? Do these powers depend upon the fact that it has Aragorn to wield it? Do restrictions like these apply to Elven blades as well (i.e. why Boromir is without)?
Not neccessarily magical. In our terms, a Numenorean is very tall, and Aragorn would be a giant - and very skilful. Also, we don't know how tough the orcs' helmets were. To say nothing of one successful strike be no prove of continous reliability against plate metal.
But yes, the dwarves were skillful in this type of things. And so were the Noldor, which might have been the smiths who reforged the sword at Rivendell.
10. Aragorn and Gandalf both think that Poor Frodo is "a very brave but dead Hobbit". Did you think this, too?
I might have, if Tolkien hadn't reminded us of the mithril-coat at the end of 'A Journey in the Dark' (and if I was a book-firster, of course).
"lesser men with spades might have served you better" - Boromir
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 22 2009, 7:03am
Post #18 of 19
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Why are the orcs so unaffected by Gandalf's magic, whereas all of the previous enemies, even the Black Riders, were driven off by it?
Only the Black Riders at Weathertop were held at bay by Gandalf’s magic. The wolves in Hollin were restrained by fire; here Gandalf has no wood to burn.
Why can the Fellowship not kill trolls? They are heroes, are they not? Or is it just a numbers thing?
Who says “heroes” are necessarily able to kill trolls? Wasn’t Aragorn’s grandfather killed by trolls?
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Mar 22 2009, 8:09am
Post #19 of 19
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Húrin being a truly spectacular example.
The other reason is that if heroes cannot kill trolls, then trolls are unstoppable. Sauron would have no need of orcs. The fact that he needs foot soldiers in addition to his stone-skinned trolls indicates that even trolls are not invincible.
The paleobotanist is back!
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