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sador
Half-elven
Mar 15 2009, 9:36am
Post #126 of 178
(2515 views)
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O, you finally got to Tol Eressea
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Happy reunion with your feline friend!
"Half a sticky mile from here to the gate!" - Pippin
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Kelvarhin
Half-elven
Mar 15 2009, 9:45am
Post #127 of 178
(2531 views)
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I heard that!!!
Isn't it time you joined us?
 
Warning - over washing may cause colour to fade
Kelvarhin's Universe~~~~~~~Laerasea's Travelling TORn Journal
One book to rule them all
One book to find them
One book to bring them all
And in TORn bind them
In the land of TORnadoes...where the brilliant play
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Mar 15 2009, 9:56am
Post #128 of 178
(2507 views)
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Thanks, Sador! We're already celebrating our reunion
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and would love to invite you and the other TORnsibs to the party:
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Kelvarhin
Half-elven
Mar 15 2009, 10:12am
Post #129 of 178
(2500 views)
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You forgot the meat!
Oh well, I'm ready.. lets eat 
Come on sador, Tol Eressëa's fun  
Warning - over washing may cause colour to fade
Kelvarhin's Universe~~~~~~~Laerasea's Travelling TORn Journal
One book to rule them all
One book to find them
One book to bring them all
And in TORn bind them
In the land of TORnadoes...where the brilliant play
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 15 2009, 12:30pm
Post #130 of 178
(2519 views)
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Yes, the writers of BotR knew exactly how many would feel about their little tome...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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sador
Half-elven
Mar 15 2009, 12:43pm
Post #131 of 178
(2480 views)
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Yeah, it will be just gorgeous //
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"Half a sticky mile from here to the gate!" - Pippin
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a.s.
Valinor
Mar 15 2009, 2:26pm
Post #132 of 178
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But if you have the time for it, and would like to help - could you please look at the thread and say what was wrong with it?
First, I think we may be verging on our long discussion deteriorating into a tangent about blame. The value of this specific conversation about why the RR intimidates (or just plain doesn't interest) other Tornsibs is that we have all used restraint. That is good, it is allowing us to hear each other and talk about painful things. And for those on the sidelines watching, it has to be encouraging (or I hope it is). But maybe we all just need to remind ourselves (all of ourselves) that while mature discussions of this kind are very helpful, it is painful to be criticized, so some of us are feeling anxious and upset, too.
Myself included.
Second, I am really only offering my opinion of what happened to get that conversation side tracked. Underline opinion. I am not the anointed group dynamics diagnostician--nor am I licensed for group therapy.
grin.
You started out with a pretty typical (at least for the last two or three years or so) RR initial discussion post. You have become a regular, and you used a style of posting that all the regulars are familiar with and would not have found offensive in any way. Some may not have been INTERESTED in the post, but you have been in the RR long enough to recognize that the RR culture does not place value on full participation IN EVERY THREAD, and you would not (or should not) take offense at low participation per se, particularly as several of us regulars are simply not participating in the Appendices discussion (I for one don't read the Appendices much nor have much interest in them).
Herein is the first identified problem: long intense posts full of references to other works is something we have seen identified in this discussion as offputting. NOTICE I DID NOT SAY there is anything wrong with these posts. I said they have been identified as a reason that people do not want to post in the RR.
Next, simplyaven objected to this posting style, and said that "in her humble opinion", the "...RR would benefit from more participants and it is difficult to participate if the discussions require such an extensive knowledge nto to speak about culture in general" and went on to explain why she felt so.
However, the word she chose to use to describe this kind of discussion was "elitarian". This choice may have been intended to be inflammatory, or it may simply have been a reflection of the fact that simplyaven is speaking English as her non-primary language. I am not sure.
But clearly you reacted (and I probably would have reacted, had I been the discussion leader) to the statement: "All the references, connections, linguistic and symbolical hints are making the discussion far more elitarian than I had imagined it."
Because the rest of her objection was stated in pretty neutral language: "I don't know if" "I feel that" "it's my opinion", etc.
I don't see anything wrong with simplyaven's objection points, and I don't see anything wrong with your response to her, to which she responded with an explanation (if I understand the points) that she was offering suggestions for making the discussions more accessible and not criticizing you per se. Your "I strongly object" should have (and apparently did) clued her into the fact that you were a tad upset with her initial post, as the word qualifier "strongly" in front of "object" is a red flag word indicating intensity.
Two regulars (recognized as such, I'm sure) posted rather neutral responses explaining style and culture in the RR.
Dreamdeer responded with what could be seen as an insult as well, telling simplyaven that we don't "dumb down" things in the RR. However, when simplyaven took offense--which may be a reflection of not understanding idiom, or may be a true reflection of the intent for using the words "dumbing down"--(I mean, Dreamdeer may have meant to sting when she chose those words), Dreamdeer responded with an "I'm sorry":
"I wouldn't be surprised if you don't have the concept in Europe. Your education systems are better than ours. You no doubt didn't intend any of the things I describe below. But I reacted in alarm, because others have intended precisely these things, against me and others. I guess you accidentally brushed against a wound you didn't cause, and were surprised when I yelped."
It is good to apologize when we hurt someone's feelings, but it is BETTER to not intentionally hurt people's feelings.
I read this exchange as frustration on simplyaven's part, but I can see how it hurt your feelings. I am confident that you, sador, did not intend to be "elitist". I am confident that you, simplyaven, did not mean to imply that sador himself was an "elitist" and were commenting on the kind of discussions you dislike rather than on sador personally.
Anyone need a hug or time-out in the hall?
So I don't know, what did I "learn" from reading that conversation that is pertinent to our current discussion about the RR?
- The RR can be seen as "elitist" even when there is no intent to be elitist.
- People can hurt other sibs feelings by using words that might be insulting, even when the insult was not intended.
- Suggestions for change can be read as insults even when the intent is not to be insulting but simply to offer constructive criticism.
I think all these "lessons" have already been received (I at least have heard them loud and clear) and this conversation just illustrates what has been discussed.
I personally need a cup of coffee now. I guess it's too early to add a shot of Bailey's...
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana
Call Her Emily
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Magpie
Immortal
Mar 15 2009, 2:44pm
Post #133 of 178
(2531 views)
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The way I process and the way I express myself is a minority style. All those committees I tried to join where no one in the room understood what I had to offer or - sometimes - wanted to hear it... it wasn't my fault and it wasn't theirs. We were just processing and communicating differently. Now, in some instances, a wonderful facilitator would pick up on this and find a way for the two styles to come together effectively. In some cases, I blissfully found myself in a group where my style was not the minority.
*points at a.s.*
Thanks.
You must be exhausted. :-)
And thanks to everyone who expressed an opinion and listened to the opinions and hung in there and kept discussing. I continued my quote above with:
For for all those experiences, I've been in plenty were I tried to find my place, I tried to communicate in their style, I tried to help them understand my preferred style, I tried to develop an atmosphere where both styles were respected and encouraged... and it was all for nought. You know how it's said that you can only change yourself? Well, I started to understand that sometimes my only choice was to leave before it got nasty. I'm still reminded sometimes how nasty it can get if, instead of just quietly walking away, I hang in there for a few more tries.
That has not happened here and it only bolsters my good opinion of the folk that make up TORn.
2009 Tolkien Computer Monitor Calendars
LOTR soundtrack website : FOTR Lyrics Update, Oct 2008
magpie avatar gallery ~ Torn Image Posting Guide
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sador
Half-elven
Mar 15 2009, 3:07pm
Post #134 of 178
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I wasn't at all offended that first time. I was upset when in the last three days this exchange was repeated twice as an example of what was wrong with the RR.
But, as English isn't my first language either, I see my request wasn't clear enough: I was asked for guidelines how I could have made the initial post more user-friendly. That was the point of my questions later.
You know, had it been merely a question of style, perhaps I could live with it. Just like some would be "put off" by Dreamdeer's archtype analysis, others by squire's minute analysis of maps and poetry, and yet others by visualweasel's philology (or even your interest in natural beauty and Christian symbolism) - my editorial style, cross-referencing each chapter to many others, could also be not for everyone's taste. So what? I personally enjoy very much the mixture of styles, and feel enriched by it. We could, just for the fun of it, ask as many as possible people to prepare a sample discussion of the same passage, and see what everyone comes with! (I'm afraid March 25th is rather too soon for this, although it might have been a nice idea).
Of course, this variety might cause a problem to new members - because even if they are not 'put off' by the leader of the week's style and range of interest, they might feel this is a highly specialised discussion we are having here, and be intimidated. I do not know! When I joined in, I loved this variety - if nothing else, it made me feel close to the person leading the discussion, and getting to know him well. But this doesn't work for everyone.
My questions on how to make my initial post more user-friendly were asked with this in mind. I fully understand not everyone is interested in the same things I am, and also that not everyone has the time to tackle my questions, especially if they are new to him/her (who ever thought originality will be a problem here?) But I do not want the discussion to be seen as one which only NEB and Curious can participate in; and I am very interested in other people's thoughts on the questions I raise. So my interest in these questions is actually quite selfish. 
And by the way, this is another issue which should be addressed in this general discussion: How do we make the RR a more welcoming and less intimidating place, without losing the variety (may I say opulence?) of viewpoints the people here have to offer?
"Half a sticky mile from here to the gate!" - Pippin
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 15 2009, 3:45pm
Post #135 of 178
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<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Mar. 9-15 for Languages, Peoples, and Translation.
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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Magpie
Immortal
Mar 15 2009, 4:07pm
Post #136 of 178
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Good choice. I was just talking to a friend last night about how words can be taken to mean one thing... convey one concept... or they can be rich and layered and complex. I used the word 'lush' to describe how allowing things to be complex felt. Opulence works well too.
Some of this really reminds me of the struggles one goes through to teach. Everyone has different learning styles and teaching styles. There were so many variables to understand and take into account when trying to teach folk dance to people that even after 5 years, I was still learning.... and, might I say, occasionally failing. It's a constant process that never finds a permanent sense of synergy. Just when I was feeling comfortable, a dozen newbies would walk through the door. Or small children. Or a physically disabled person that needed accommodation in the dance. Or only 5 people would show up and I'd struggle to find enough 6 person dances to teach while I did dual role of dancer and caller.
I think providing lots of options will mean that sometimes, a particular option doesn't hit a mark. I actually post quite a bit of stuff that no one (or few) respond to. I think that happens for various reasons. But when one tries to present as many options as possible, some options will get more attention than others. That's just the nature of it. If my personality type is 4% of the population then something I post might only appeal to 4% of my audience. Catch that 4% on a bad day when they're busy and well... there may not be any reaction. I don't think the reaction we get is a measure of popularity or a measure of even how well we presented it.
I'm always doing self analysis so I'm always wondering how I might do something different. But I try to just keep it confined to refining the process. Not letting it become too self judgmental. This is all for fun. I'd hate to see people angst too much over meeting everyone needs with one approach because that will never happen. I figure there's someone out there with a strength that fills in the gap of my weakness so I love taking turns, sharing and collaborating.
2009 Tolkien Computer Monitor Calendars
LOTR soundtrack website : FOTR Lyrics Update, Oct 2008
magpie avatar gallery ~ Torn Image Posting Guide
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 15 2009, 4:28pm
Post #137 of 178
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Wanted to address a couple of your questions
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and as I stated above, I'm a former regular of the RR but haven't been lately. NOT because anything is wrong in the RR for me but my life has become more complicated in recent years. It is by far my favorite place on TORN, and for some of the reasons you mention - the variety (and opulence!) of styles from the participants, and the tolerance with which those differences are welcomed.
I think the RR can be changed by the participants. That doesn't mean that the current participants are the only change agent - the tenor and tone can be changed by gaining more participants. The regulars have a difficult time changing on their own - they're already comfortable with the RR so they can't easily see what needs to be changed. The regulars NEED new people to point out where the style is off-putting or can be made more welcoming. People have a hard time assessing their own performance - they need an observer to show them where they can improve. The same is true for a message board. But merely highlighting differences isn't enough - new people need to join in and effect the change with their own contributions; otherwise the regulars will fall back into their own comfortable rhythm.
I'm thinking of some examples from the other forums - the Main Board is nothing like it was before the movies came out, and they are different from what they were when the movies were first released. Movie is another example - it is now dominated by regularly scheduled threads with a group of regulars and there is little random participation and few new participants, but when the movies were released it was alive with new members and multiple random questions.
All the message forums on TORN have changed over the years for two primary reasons - a different mix of participants and changes in the surrounding situation. Main was radically changed by an influx of new participants (some might say a tsunami). Main still has a lot to discuss because of new events. It stays alive both because of new people and new events to discuss. Movie changed because there were no more releases to inject fresh ideas, so the regulars found a way to keep the movies alive by recycling discussions in different ways. The RR is in a similar situation - there are very few new books to discuss, so the same material is discussed in a cycle. The key difference between Movie and the RR is the medium being discussed - movies vs. books - and each present different challenges in sustaining a discussion.
Because the surrounding situations for Movie and the RR are not subject to change, it falls upon the participants to bring about change. Movies are higly visual, so that elicits a type of discussion that is not suitable to the text-based discussion that prevails in the RR. The movies are also a smaller body of work - there are the three recent movies, the EEs, and the previous attempts (Bakshi and Rankin-Bass). The topics in the books, however are covered in the vast amount of source material and all the ancillary stuff (biographies, letters and scholarly analysis). Discussion in the RR isn't confined to the primary novels but includes the decades of other material that has been published. It's inevitable that the participants in the RR will have a varying amount of knowledge, but that doesn't mean we can't still learn from each other.
So how does someone who hasn't read every text feel like they can participate in the RR when other members of the forum are perceived to be so much more knowledgeable? One way is to realize that we're ALL nervous and trying to do the best we can. We all have the best intentions, but the medium of the internet prevents us from seeing the smile behind the words and the genuine desire to connect. We all have different abilities to communicate, and different approaches, but trying to understand each other before we draw conclusions will help us understand the motivations of our fellow participants. It's fine to participate if you don't have as much knowledge as the others - many times the observations from a variety of backgrounds makes for the best discussion.
I do think it's important to stress what Elizabeth said earlier. There is NO expectation in the RR that someone respond to every question, or even any of the questions in a particular post. If the topic results in an observation that isn't covered in the questions being asked, it's perfectly OK to make the observation within that thread.
You made some great points, sador! I love your March 25 suggestion - we might be able to pull something like that off some time.
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Mar 15 2009, 6:30pm
Post #138 of 178
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If you want specific suggestions...
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I was asked for guidelines how I could have made the initial post more user-friendly. That was the point of my questions later. That was a pretty solid wall of text... it might have been a little easier to read spaced out with blank lines between paragraphs, questions, etc. If that results in too much vertical space, you could break it into two or more posts.
Just as people here have a range of literary backgrounds and skills, writing styles, etc., there's also a range of abilities with formatting. That's fine, too, but an extra blank line isn't hard to achieve, and can help with readability.
The Rohirrim, by Peter Xavier Price
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Mar 15 2009, 8:05pm
Post #139 of 178
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Of course, you're right, thank you!
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I had no idea my post was discussed here  Thank you for the explanations, you're quite right. As I said on feedback, I thought I was helping and since then I've been constantly feeling sorry that I posted such comments. I didn't use "elitarian" to offend sador but I knew what it meant and as a phylologist i refered mainly to the level of language used. I also agree with Elizabeth that sometimes such a long text can be broken into paragraphs and/or different posts and it helps a lot. Of course, it's again my feeling. I'll copy this suggestion in a post to sador too. Thank you for all the work you have done with this analysis which I believe took quite a lot of time
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on the Main board!
I believe
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Mar 15 2009, 8:14pm
Post #140 of 178
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This previous debate of ours was brought to the attention of TORNsibs by me
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because I felt somehow responsible as one of the people who have openly stated they have difficulties with certain type of discussions in the RR. I made my suggestions. The problem is noone really seemed to be willing to change. You like it that way - that's fine. Others don't like it. If you hadn't posted a comment on lower participation I would have never posted my ideas on why the participation is lower. But I wonder if you were actually looking for such ideas. Now I doubt it. Than I thought so and decided to help sharing my reasons for not participating. Now it turns into some chasing around the boards which I dislike and is not my style. As you saw, if I have something to say I will no matter what the consequences will be and in this case they start to resemble an avalanche 
As I wrote in my post to a.s. , I find Elizabeth's suggestion very good - broken text, spaces, different paragraphs and/or posts. I also think that some of the sentences could be broken. Not all of us are able to follow sentences separated by a number of commas and semi-colons, not to mention if they are few lines long and contain referrals here and there to other posts and/or works.
I also think that every leader could post different types of questions - more complex for those who know and read, and are interested in more in-depth discussion; and simpler (I don't mean offence here, I include myself in this category) or even better: "more open" questions for those who would like to let their mind flow and share a different perspective which is not necessarily supported by the scholar "John Smith - famous published critic of Tolkien."
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on the Main board!
I believe
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Mar 15 2009, 9:45pm
Post #141 of 178
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I think that the poster who protested was having a rough day, and struggling to follow along in English (ironically, it's not your first language, either, but who would know?) Also, since she had earlier come out in favor of monarchy and declared her noble descent, she might have been bending over backwards to avoid elitism, herself.
As for urging teaching, I directed that at the poster's own hesitation to share her linguistic knowledge in the discussion, not to you (although I would be delighted to learn anything from you or anybody generous enough to ply me with knowledge!) I pretty much have the same point as yours. We should all revel in learning together. In addition to crying "Teach! Teach!" I would also cry out "Learn! Learn!" in the same joyful spirit as someone in a refreshing pool of water on a hot day crying out, "Jump on in--the water's fine!"
My dear Sador, I do not see you as elitist at all.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Mar 15 2009, 10:12pm
Post #142 of 178
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I honestly did not want to hurt anyone with the "dumbing down" remark. I might have unconsciously been lashing out, however, at Sister Bernie, not SimplyAven, without even realizing it. Around that same time, when our church hosted the bishop at a fiesta, Sr. Bernie wouldn't let us cook for him, but hired a special chef for his meal (when we had much better uses for that money) because she thought a bunch of Indians were too stupid to learn how to fix a vegan meal, according to his preferences. I mean, what's so hard? Include complementary proteins, leave out the meat and dairy, and mix in a B-12 rich mushroom broth--it's not rocket science.
But that's no excuse. I should not bring outside aggravations with me. The words slipped out. They shouldn't have.
In any case, I was not calling anyone dumb. I was protesting the prospect of being treated like someone who cannot learn. Still, I could have chosen better words.
So I will say it in different words. To treat someone disdainfully for not knowing something, or to simply avoid discussing what one assumes is out of a person's intellectual reach, are opposite sides of the same coin: the assumption that people can't learn. That would support an elite more than anything else, to cut people off from expanding their horizons, whether out of disdain or pity, it's all the same thing. The notion that simplifying questions or limiting admissible knowledge would be the way to not intimidate people scares me far, far more than anything that has actually gone on in the Reading Room.
I used a common slang-term for this kind of "kindly" sabotage, and I apologize for that, as it was easily misunderstood. I will not, however, apologize for being seriously afraid of a solution worse than the problem.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Mar 15 2009, 10:19pm
Post #143 of 178
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4% out there doesn't mean 4% here. I think that Tolkien particularly appeals to intuitive types, so you might find more birds of a feather here than you might realize. Peguins make only a tiny percentage of the bird population, but in Antarctica they're everywhere!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Mar 15 2009, 10:26pm
Post #144 of 178
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I have often written a post broken up with blank lines, only to have them vanish once posted. Then I correct them, and once again, they have vanished. Then I attempt to fix them in html, and wind up with weird, uneven formating. Then the editing window closes. I think a gremlin infests the boards, chewing up blank lines whenever he can get his pointy little fangs into them.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Mar 15 2009, 10:33pm
Post #145 of 178
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I'm not waiting but imagine...
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that my own efforts are not enough for the RR to turn suddenly into a warm welcoming sunny spot to join a discussion for more TORNsibs. As I said, I read, I try to learn as quickly as possible, and participate to get used to the style and tone. However, despite all my efforts I can't change the RR alone no matter how much I read or learn. I think you meant it's a two way street with which I agree. But one can not change the whole. I disagree it is me - the problem because apparently there are many more who feel the same way.
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on the Main board!
I believe
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Mar 16 2009, 1:20am
Post #147 of 178
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It especially happens when I quote a long list of questions, and then try to answer each question in turn, instead of leaving the quote all in one big lump. How do others get around that?
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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a.s.
Valinor
Mar 16 2009, 2:07am
Post #148 of 178
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I go back and forth from the post to which I am replying, to my open "write post" box, copy and paste each section separately from the post into my "write post" box (or a big chunk of text that I then plan to break into smaller pieces) and put quotes (using the " " button in the advanced editor box) around each separate section. Then make LOTS of space between each of the quotes, and only then try to answer.
So for your post, I just copied and pasted the whole thing, then separated it into two sections (just entered hard breaks with the enter key) and put quotes around each section after leaving lot of space for myself.
It especially happens when I quote a long list of questions, and then try to answer each question in turn, instead of leaving the quote all in one big lump.
But an interesting thing will happen when you do this: your response font will change to whatever the default font is inside the quote box (Verdana, I just checked). Don't know why that happens. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't, and sometimes you can change it and sometimes you can't. I never check basic editor to see why!
How do others get around that?
Now preview and make sure there is lots of white space between the quoted sections and the reponse, and enter more hard breaks if you need them. And if the font looks awkward, you can go to the trouble of changing it (if it let's you) but as long as there is white space, it is easy to read.
And that's how I do it! Like I say, probably vastly easier ways. Hope to hear them.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana
Call Her Emily
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 16 2009, 2:26am
Post #149 of 178
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Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Mar 16 2009, 3:23am
Post #150 of 178
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I always get in trouble when I use the Advanced Editor. It's trying to hard to be helpful. I'd rather stay in control, thank you!
But basically, I copy the long list of questions and paste it in the editing box, then go around and put "bold" commands around the questions, so they stand out from my answers.
When I'm composing a long post (e.g. when I'm a discussion leader) I compose it in a very simple editor, and then paste it into the editing box here, preview, and tweak as necessary.
"Preview" is essential!
The Rohirrim, by Peter Xavier Price
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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