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GaladrielTX
Tol Eressea
Mar 14 2009, 9:33pm
Post #101 of 178
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"Admins do not generally feel justified in requiring people to post to our preferences"
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Nor should you.
My personal view is that Admins should not get involved unless there is "cursing, swearing, excessive sexual innuendo or posting pics that contain nudity,...posts containing racial, ethnic, religious, political, sexual or other slurs, personal attacks (on a TORn user or other person) intentional attempts to drive posters away or make them feel unwelcome, or posts made with the purpose of criticizing or insulting another poster...." That type of thing.
The kind of discussion I'm talking about is not in its nature or degree similar to the above behavior, just something some people don't really enjoy. The style of posting in the reading room shouldn't be enforced, IMO.
~~~~~~~~
The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
(This post was edited by GaladrielTX on Mar 14 2009, 9:34pm)
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 14 2009, 9:33pm
Post #102 of 178
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"It's true we shun the hugs and stuff."
Please don't let this interesting discussion degenerate into a sador-hugging thread ... But I have some serious thinking to do about how and how much to carry on, whether and what to change in the style or content...
So instead of merely excellent questions*, you'll be asking only brilliant ones? While I admire you for going the extra mile in introspection, I would ask, if you do take a hiatus, please don't stay away for too long!
On the matter of what official discussion leaders should assume respondents have read, there is no absolute rule. Among Tolkien's full-length fictional works, the participants of this forum have voted to discuss The Lord of the Rings four times, The Silmarillion twice, Unfinished Tales twice, and The Hobbit only once. Further adding to the "endorsement" of those works as staples: various admins have been among the discussion leaders for all four of these books. Like you, I tend to assume that I can refer to any of those works in a question without having to explain much about it. Those who know the referenced passage will respond accordingly. Those who don't know can learn from others' responses, or can ask for clarification, or can ignore the question as being outside their interest. When in doubt about what people will know, I suggest over-explaining a little. (But I think you were doing that in your questions on Appendix A.) Obviously with the unofficial threads, there aren't constraints on what texts can be mentioned, or no one could ever ask a random question about anything! But some explanation, again, will encourage participation.
*Like these questions about "Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion", the very ones whose appropriateness has been mooted. These questions were accompanied by a clear summary of that section of Appendix A. As can be seen, when you refer to another text, "Cirion and Eorl" in Unfinished Tales, you describe the relevant passages to help respondents who don't have that book to hand. Your questions touch on a wide variety of areas --possible symbolism, explanations for the action, character motivation, language-- which gives people choices about what to answer. And you conclude by encouraging others to share their thoughts on the passages under discussion. Other leaders might take different approaches, but I continue not to see anything wrong in your approach -- and I continue to welcome explanation from others on what I'm not grasping.
1. What does the loss of the palantír mean, or symbolise? How could it happen? Wouldn’t it be too heavy to be caught in the current – shouldn’t it have beem found?
2. Why did Ornendil’s execution come as such a shock to the people of Osgiliath? What would they have done to Castamir’s sons if caught alive?
3. Did Pelargir have a real claim to being the capital? Why wasn’t a palantír put there – after all, it was where the Fleets High Command sat, a critical point to observe the movements of the Haradrim, and the nervous centre of the Southron fiefs? Were people as concerned about the kings’ spending the summers in Minas Anor?
4. The Harad seems to have had three ‘generations’ of renegades as leaders: first the Black Númenóreans (three of which leaders are said in the Akallabêth to be of the Nine), then the King’s Men (called here ‘Black Númenóreans’), and now members of the Royal House. What are the relations between these three groups? Wouldn’t they hate each other? At what point did the descendants of Castamir ally themselves with Sauron?
5. Note that the whole section about Eldacar is in quotation marks, which in Tolkien’s conceit means they were copied as is from an ancient source. What do you make of this?
6. A question I forgot to ask – doesn’t the name ‘Vinyarion’ sound too much like ‘Vinitharya’? What does it mean – and is there a double meaning to it?
7. Why didn’t Sauron repeat this biological warfare? After all, his first experiment was highly successful!
8. What is the meaning of the White Tree withering? What does the new one signify – Minas Anor, the House of the Stewards (Húrin of Emyn Arnen was the steward of king Minardil, and might still be holding the office), a general hope of life beyond Sauron’s devices?
9. A note in brackets, which implies an insertion added to the Red Book at a later date, reads: At this time it is thought that the Ringwraiths re-entered Mordor. The watch of Mordor is said to have failed at the time of the Plague; however, “Cirion and Eorl” mentions that the Gates of Morannon were still manned at the time of the fall of Ondoher. Can we reconcile the evidence? Need we?
10. In “Cirion and Eorl”, young Faramir is said to have disobeyed his father’s command, and gone to war in disguise when he should have stayed home as regent. The Faramir of LotR disobeys his father’s wish, and takes what Denethor sees as needless risks. Did Denethor identify with Ondoher? Consider his losing two sons, and his line being (apparantly) broken – consider the fact that the next co-ordinated attack on Gondor was in the War of the Ring, that Ondoher is the only king (except for Eärnur) who wasn’t buried in Rath Dinen (as his bones were never found), and that the Wainriders were probably Gondor’s only first-hand experience of “heathen kings”.
11. On the other hand, Faramir heals and marries Éowyn – who arguably did exactly what the first Faramir did. Is this a sort of fulfillment, even redemption, of the first Faramir?
As usual, any other comments would be welcome.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Mar. 9-15 for Languages, Peoples, and Translation.
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 14 2009, 10:13pm
Post #103 of 178
(2837 views)
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 !
I, too, like to just read and ponder when the discussions get intense. It's like attending a panel discussion!
And this thread has made me realize that it's been a while since the last Bored of the Rings discussion. Now there's a way to shock "newbies" (and everyone else)! Squire took the last chapter, looks like this one's mine...be warned! 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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a.s.
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 10:34pm
Post #104 of 178
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I got those, too.
(see, the eyes are dog food bits...can you tell?)
OK, thanks for clarifying. I understand EXACTLY what you are saying and I actually may be one who has responded that way before because...I don't know, I guess because I am tempted to reply "great job" on a post if it is "well done".
That's the first time it's ever been mentioned to me that it might be irritating to receive a dog treat that way.
So I will watch out for my tendency to respond in that manner.
So, see: even old, er, dogs can learn new behaviors.
I hope.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana
Call Her Emily
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a.s.
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 10:47pm
Post #105 of 178
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"an seileachan"
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana
Call Her Emily
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 14 2009, 11:10pm
Post #106 of 178
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I have no problem with the phrase "Well said", which I take as a compliment.
"Well done" just strikes me as condescending, as if I were being given a grade upon completion of an assignment. I perceive a sense of inequality there, which I resent when I am involved in a discussion among peers. I'm responding to the discussion because I have something to say, not because I need to meet someone's criteria.
Thanks for listening. Improved understanding between TORNsibs is a Very Good Thing. 
Silverlode
"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you." -On Fairy Stories
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a.s.
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 11:15pm
Post #107 of 178
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I obviously have *not* read all the posts, have I?
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As the one who was been singled out for denouncement as elitarian, both here and in Feedback, for the crime of asking many questions on a discussion which in previous years took two weeks - I do feel pretty bad.
Sador, first, I simply cannot help this, it's in my nature:
Second, it is obvious I have not read every post that led up to this intense group examination-of-conscience. The fact that the "elitist" tag was thrown at you for a previous post has entirely gone over my head because I have not been participating in the RR lately so missed that exchange.
I don't know what that was all about; however, I stand by my basic message, which is that I love the RR regulars (and you are one yourself) and this discussion is less about any evil that has occurred than it is about how people FEEL about what has happened in the past.
Feelings of rejection are real, even when we caused them accidently ("we" includes "me"), even when we were entirely innocent of intentional rejection--even when we were misinterpreted.
And it is VERY HARD to sit with that and not get too defensive to listen. I extend kudos to the regulars (myself included, I hope) who are intentionally not circling the wagons and just listening, because it is hard to be criticized.
I guess what I'm attempting to get out of these intense discussions is a simple assurance that people who have felt intimidated or rejected know that we are sorry they felt that way, which just is, I hope, the best we can do for past problems.
And for the future we can attempt to be less inimidating by looking for opportunities to be more inclusive.
Also, when we inadvertently hurt someone's feelings, even in all innocence, as I may have done to you (I am not certain; I can tell you are upset but not sure if I made it worse with the statement you quoted), we should offer our sincere apologies, as I am doing now. I did not mean to hurt your feelings, and if I did, I am sorry I did.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana
Call Her Emily
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Altaira
Superuser
Mar 14 2009, 11:16pm
Post #108 of 178
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This, and your other posts, express things perfectly, I think. 
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
TORn Calendar
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Morthoron
Gondor
Mar 14 2009, 11:28pm
Post #109 of 178
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My, this is a very Hobbitish bunch. I am belligerent by nature, so I have not encountered anything that would make me quake in this forum, but to be honest I think those folks who have perhaps not memorized the HoMe series verbatim, or do not have Tolkien's letters on flash cards, may feel a bit intimidated by the elevated and sometimes zealous dialogue in the RR. As Dreemdeer reminded me in a thread on another forum (and I am paraphrasing her remarks in context with this discussion), those who have a greater grasp of the lore should teach and/or share their knowledge for the betterment of the group, rather than appear condescending. I say 'appear condescending' because perception, as we all know, may be quite different from reality; therefore, based on some folks' comments on this thread, there is a perception of condescension at times, whether that is applicable or not.
Read the ongoing serialization of MONTY PYTHON'S 'The HOBBIT', found here:
http://www.fanfiction.net/...y_Pythons_The_Hobbit
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Mar 15 2009, 12:54am
Post #110 of 178
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I want someone who has read more than me to fill me in on what I missed, certainly! To me that isn't intimidating. I think it's more a matter of the way people might phrase something rather than what they say. But perish forbid anybody should hold back on sharing knowledge! Ever hear the Nickel Creek song, "When in Rome"?
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Mar 15 2009, 12:59am
Post #111 of 178
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I think that the reason that many people suffer in silence rather than complain about something so vague as "I'm not comfortable in the Reading Room, yet I really want to talk about the books," is because our default assumption is, "There must be something wrong with me." When this discussion started in "Feedback" I heard a lot of, "That's fine for those folks, but I'm not good enough to participate." When I kept hearing this from people whose intelligence, knowledge, and wisdom I respected, I began to wonder, leading to the speculation that maybe we're not all defective.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Mar 15 2009, 1:04am
Post #112 of 178
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...not to either "degenerate" into Sador-hugging (although there are worse ways to degenerate, I'll bet!) nor to engage in Sador-bashing, but I read both threads in the Feedback forum and this thread here, and I did not perceive you as being targeted at all. Did I miss something?
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Mar 15 2009, 1:08am
Post #113 of 178
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I cannot speak for others, but when I say that the Reading Room folks don't need to change, I mean in the sense that they don't need to stop being thinking-type persons and engaging in thinking-type discussions. But what does need to change is how all of us interface with each other. The predominant regulars need to find less frightening ways of asking questions, and the timid folk need to bolden up and claim their place in the forum, instead of just fading away without a word and depriving us of their contributions. What I've been trying to say is that we don't need less intellect, we don't need dumbing down, but we do need room for the whole spectrum of literary experience.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Mar 15 2009, 1:11am
Post #114 of 178
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Peredhil Lover, you're so good at English now that I had no idea it wasn't your mother-tongue until you told us!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Mar 15 2009, 1:16am
Post #115 of 178
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Heaven forbid that we should draft a bunch of Draconian rules governing what style we should use! Rules are rigid. Culture-change, on the other hand, enjoys a certain flexibility and adapts to changing circumstances as well as personality. I have not posted this thread to call for the establishment of new laws (anarchist, remember?) but just to clear the air, get us talking to each other, to think about where we've been and where we'd like to go, who we are and who we'd like to be.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 15 2009, 3:48am
Post #117 of 178
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as the old Purists would say," said dernwyn, and fishing her old worn BotR out of her bookshelf, set out without squire along the rising gorge that led to the next chapter.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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a.s.
Valinor
Mar 15 2009, 4:02am
Post #118 of 178
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"rising gorge" is just how I would describe
[In reply to]
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my anticipation of the next BOTR discussion.
But carry on. I'll prepare the emesis basins.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana
Call Her Emily
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Mar 15 2009, 6:31am
Post #119 of 178
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 Actually, I'm, German. I think you can blame Tolkien for most of my English now. After falling in love with his work, I wanted more and searched for fanfics, but the only readable ones I could find were English, so I was forced to learn it better. Writing reviews finally gave me enough confidence to sign up here, and the permanent use in turn helped more. So you see, it's all the Professor's fault
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Mar 15 2009, 6:41am
Post #120 of 178
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After lurking in the RR a few times, I was always astonished about the high level of knowledge and the ability to say it in such a way. Though I did understand what was being said, it was out of the question to discuss on the same level. I would have problems with that even in my own language, but in a foreign language it's just beyond me. But can I run to a mod and complain because I am too stupid to write scholarly posts? I would feel even more stupid ... It's very different from, say, complaining because X was nasty to me.
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Mar 15 2009, 6:48am
Post #121 of 178
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that I appreciate it very much that you all try to understand why others feel uncomfortable in the RR instead of going all defensive! It's great that we can talk so openly about the whole matter; it's hopefully helping both sides to more understanding.
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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sador
Half-elven
Mar 15 2009, 7:02am
Post #122 of 178
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"Thinking hard or hardly thinking?"
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Maybe we should add squire's poem as a sticky? Orcbane will hate it, I know - but it seems we have long passed beyond his complaints to other people's!
"Half a sticky mile from here to the gate!" - Pippin
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sador
Half-elven
Mar 15 2009, 8:07am
Post #123 of 178
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Both earlier this thread, and in the one in Feedback
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The post refering to was the one whose questions NEB copied above; the original thread is this.
But if you have the time for it, and would like to help - could you please look at the thread and say what was wrong with it? Its length? The fact that one of the questions was one asked of professionals, as I had no idea what was the right answer myself? (it was in fact answered when I asked a second time, in Saelind's discussion of 'The House of Eorl'). At the time, I had actually considered writing down my amateurish chain of thought that led to this question - but refrained from doing it, exactly because I was afraid its length would intimidate people, who may not bother to see how simple in fact it was!
I agree it was long and intense (even after I didn't asked some 50% of the questions I had). I understand that if a person felt he was taking a test, he would feel a bit apprehensive. Does anyone feel like it? Did the questions make such an impression?
Was the summary I gave not clear enough? Or should I have focused only on special events discussed in the appendices, prefering specific story elements to a broad outline of history? I did so in the following two threads, but got less response.
So I am asking - not because I want to improve my PR, and not even only for improving the next discussion I'll lead (a very important thing in itself) - but also because some of these questions really intrigue me - in the post discussed above, especially the two Faramirs question (which only Darkstone answered back then). Should I have refrained from asking, and then posted it as a separate question a few weeks later? I still can.
And a final note - not directed to you, but to anyone who wants to join the discussions: I wish you would stop discussing how, as a veteran (of less than one round of discussions!) should teach newbies. I am an amateur myself. It never crossed my mind you should learn from me; I was hoping you would learn with me.
"Half a sticky mile from here to the gate!" - Pippin
(This post was edited by sador on Mar 15 2009, 8:09am)
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Mar 15 2009, 8:42am
Post #124 of 178
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I don't see anything wrong with your posts.
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As NEB notes, you summarized the relevant passages, and then posted a bunch of questions. Yes, it was a pretty dense post and a lot of questions, but no one is required to answer all questions in the Reading Room, and it's quite common for responses to not answer *any* of the questions in the post being responded to! In Darkstone's two current posts on the Cat poem, no one has answered any questions, but several people have made interesting comments, which all any discussion leader really wants.
We are not in school, there are no quizzes and no requirements. Folks can read a post and the responses, and join in or not depending on whether they have time and have something to say. No one is graded on what they post, and we all assume that there's a wide range of familiarity with Tolkien's work, from first-time readers to serious scholars. We all learn from each other, and I may say that hearing responses from first-time LotR readers gives the old-timers a special thrill; it's like being in love for the first time again!
People should just do whatever interests them and gives them pleasure without worrying about others' judgments.
I'll also add that being a discussion leader is a real challenge. One sweats bullets to provide thorough coverage and raise interesting issues, and then you put out a post and sit anxiously waiting for responses. It's a lonely feeling when they don't come! Most of the time, silence has nothing to do with the quality of your post, and much more to do with the day of the week, time of year, other people being busy, something exciting happening on another forum that's sucking all the attention, etc.
I remember once putting up a post that I was really proud of, and no one responded for two days! Sheer agony! I couldn't bring myself to check in here for a few days after that, but when I did I found about 20 posts had come in on the 3rd day, and a very lively discussion had taken place.
Anyway, sador, I enjoyed your discussion and think you did just fine.
The Rohirrim, by Peter Xavier Price
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Mar 15 2009, 8:52am)
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Curious
Half-elven
Mar 15 2009, 9:00am
Post #125 of 178
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I expressed myself at the time.
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It was the material in the appendix that I found heavy going, and not your questions regarding the material. But the questions are left to the discussion leader's discretion. There has been a suggestion in this thread, I believe, that we come up with some questions appropriate for a broad audience, such as "how do you feel about this chapter," or "what is your favorite part of this chapter." I think that's a good suggestion, but I wouldn't want to mandate it, or abandon the more esoteric questions entirely.
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