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a.s.
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 3:51pm
Post #76 of 178
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Yes, and we can hear them loud and clear
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Most of the people who speak now are not feeling welcome and comfortable, am I wrong? This is my understanding
Yes, they are. And we are trying our best to listen to them. I have seen most (maybe all, but I am not CERTAIN I have read all the posts yet) of the RR regulars calmly listen and not become defensive about the continued expressions of other Tornsib's displeasure with their RR experience, and I see all the RR regulars who are participating in this thread are trying very hard to figure out what has gone on and what can be done differently.
At the same time, I love all the regulars here like the brothers and sisters they are, and I would not change them for the world. That said, there are still things we could do to be more welcoming, and we are trying to listen and do those things, if we can, because at heart we WANT to be welcoming. It's not through intention that we have become unwelcoming, but the road to hell was paved with good intentions, wasn't it?
Hope that made sense.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana
Call Her Emily
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Mar 14 2009, 3:58pm
Post #77 of 178
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I'm sure noone became unwelcoming through intention and yes, your response makes a lot of sense. Thank you 
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on the Main board!
I believe
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GaladrielTX
Tol Eressea
Mar 14 2009, 4:35pm
Post #78 of 178
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may go a long way toward explaining why people don't complain to admins:
http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_threaded;post=174385;sb=post_time;so=DESC;guest=5544305
Relentless arguments aren't strictly against board policy. So no one feels it appropriate to get admins involved.
What I understand you to say is a person who finds themselves embroiled in an argument and dislikes or is even bad at this kind of discussion has a responsibility to other board members to knuckle under and cry uncle. If they don't that's their fault. But that's blaming the "victims" (well, "victim" is too strong a word, but you get my point). I don't think these sensitive people who don't like argument or who feel they're not good at it need to change. No such responsibility for confronting argumentative members exists, and it would probably be unpleasant. I suspect that's why a lot of people leave in disgust or embarrassment without ever saying why.
~~~~~~~~
The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 4:44pm
Post #79 of 178
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Welcome, but not necessarily comfortable
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I have read through this whole thread. Thank you to all have shared their sincere thoughts.
For myself, I have never been made to feel unwelcome in the Reading Room. There is not a single person here (at least currently; I can't speak for the past) who strikes me as anything other than kindhearted, welcoming people. Nonetheless, I doubt I will ever feel fully comfortable here. It's not a question of lack of knowledge, or lack of confidence, or even lack of a desire for extended discussions. I simply don't feel comfortable with the way that some people here challenge arguments. I would never ask or suggest that people change their ways; I think that would be unfair. I just take as much pleasure out of the discussions as I can, and back away when I have to.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 5:05pm
Post #80 of 178
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Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 5:34pm
Post #81 of 178
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- Thinking Mode: Yes, pretty much anything here can be directly challenged. If somebody states, as a fact, "Frodo was a goblin in disguise," I will certainly want proof.
- Feeling Mode: Not so much. Theories of characterization can, to some extent be challenged, but not on a strict point-by-point criteria--because really, nothing can be "proven" about states of mind and personality (as Ufthak recently pointed out to me.) Still, one can say something like, "What led you to your conviction that Gimli secretly envied Aragorn's height?" On the other hand, if people express something like, "The Morgul Vale sounds gorgeous!" you can't really argue with their tastes, although you can assert a difference of opinion. (Note: "What led to your opinion?" is a friendlier question than, "Can you prove that?")
- Intuitive Mode: One cannot say, "No, that does not symbolize that," but one can say, "That doesn't symbolize that for me," or even, "My, but that's a rare symbolic association!" And one can point to evidence that a particular symbol has much backing in a given society, or in worldwide archetypes, without dictating that it has to mean precisely that for any given reader, or even for Tolkien personally. (I speak as someone with a sometimes peculiar lexicon of personal symbols. In my own dreams, for instance, motorcycles symbolize my mother, and dolls are objects of nightmare. We won't even get into the dream I had the other night, about javalinas in hats.)
- Sensation Mode: In some ways this can get even more scientific than Thinking Mode. You can strap down a reader in a laboratory, if you wish, and measure heartrate, breath-rate, and take blood samples to get hormonal reactions. Not that I'm proposing going that far! But one can inquire as to whether many readers react universally to the same stimuli in the book, and whether the writing style assists or detracts from this reaction, or whether the reaction originates in the subject itself, regardless of how it is written, and whether this is due to telling a great and original story, or telling the same old sentimental story just because it pushes buttons. ("Sentimentalism" in literature is when a story relies solely on the subject matter without skill, such as showing bad guys attacking cute little kittens to get a gut reaction from the reader, regardless of whether the writing itself is good, or whether the bad guys even have any reason to attack kittens. Although we usually think of sentimental literature as excessively precious Victorian flitterings, some of the worst offenders in modern literature/drama are horror-flicks.)
In summary, different kinds of criticism call for different kinds of challenges. But to some degree yes, everything can be challenged, and the challengee usually walks away the better for it.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 5:38pm
Post #82 of 178
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Newbies often have a perspective that I never thought of before, unclouded by reference to anything else except them alone with the book. I love to hear what they have to say!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 5:39pm
Post #83 of 178
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Fourth language? Then I'm even more impressed. For me it's more than enough to manage two!
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 5:44pm
Post #84 of 178
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I much better like the idea of playing ideas off of each other and together building towards something synchretically broader and more beautiful than anything we might come up with alone, in comparison to a mere contest of "Am I right, or are you right?" What if both have part of the truth? We can miss out on so much when we don't put our pieces together, to where we can then speculate on what fits in the gaps in between.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 5:55pm
Post #85 of 178
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"I said x not X." That's it, exactly. I often feel that my x posts get exaggerated into X, and then challenged as though I took an extreme position. When I try to clarify that I only meant x, then they say, "Well, if you don't mean X than you must mean Y!" No, no, no, I definitely mean x.
People talk a lot about the fearsome intellect zinging around in the Reading Room, but forgive me for being blunt, sometimes I see a dreadful lack of subtlety, masquerading as authority by shouting down refined distinctions of meaning, only recognizing the baldest points as vaild.
Some of you who don't feel smart enough for the Reading Room might be smarter.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 6:38pm
Post #86 of 178
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I agree completely with you. And IMHO it's not only a problem of the RR, but of the whole internet community, as I have seen it otherwhere, too. It's probably inevitable that it happens, but it can be avoided or at least kept in check with a bit of effort on both sides.
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 6:44pm
Post #87 of 178
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As I said otherwhere, there are things where there is not only one definite answer, but a bit of wriggle way. There are facts that have to be accepted, yes, but often I think you can interpret something this way or that - and what's wrong with it??
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Mar 14 2009, 7:41pm
Post #88 of 178
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But let me ask you this: If someone posts a question for which there happen to be answers in sources such as Unfinished Tales or Tolkien's letters (and there have been several here lately), should folks who are familiar with those sources refrain from answering for fear of intimidating someone?
If the expectation is that everyone needs to have read all that stuff in order to participate in discussions here, we would IMO be failing in our purpose to entertain new or casual Tolkien fans by introducing them to new material and new ideas of our favorite author, which is the point I was trying to make by describing my reaction to getting questions answered from remoter parts of the legendarium.
The fun aspect of RR discussions is that they take place on a variety of levels. But, of course, that depends entirely on getting posts at a variety of levels. We can't have a "lighter" discussion of the books if no one contributes lighter questions or posts! So, fire away!
The Rohirrim, by Peter Xavier Price
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Mar 14 2009, 7:42pm)
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 14 2009, 7:47pm
Post #89 of 178
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"Prove it!" as the summary of a particular style, rather than an exact quote. It's a statement of how a certain approach is perceived, rather than how it's meant. I think a.s. put it quite well in her "I would say it's evident" subthread above, but as I see that you're frustrated there, let me see if I can clarify at all.
Scenario: A non-regular has posted an excellent, well phrased answer to a thread. Someone responds to it with a series of questions. "Why? Do you have references? Can you reconcile that with this?" Then the original poster composes a second answer, in more depth this time. And they are met with another series of questions. To which they compose another detailed response. And are met with more questions. For many people, this does not feel like interesting dialogue. It feels like interrogation and it's not enjoyable.
This is when people become exhausted, intimidated or annoyed. But as a.s. has said, they won't tell you. This is a frustration the Admins share, believe me. How often do we have to say "If you see a problem, tell us!"? And still most people don't, and so we're left to try to read all the undercurrents by the clues we can pick up, with varying amounts of success.
However, one can lessen the likelihood of being seen as the "mean cop" by throwing in some commentary with your questions. Before you ask anything, share with them your first response. When you read the post, did you think, "Oh, that's an interesting point. I want to know more."? If you did, then that should be the first line of your response. That will assure them that you are asking because you are interested in what they said. Instantly, you've taken your tone from "Prove it to me!" to "Tell me more!" This makes the effort of responding much less onerous and intimidating. Respond in some way to what they said before you ask them to say more. Even if it's "I'm not sure I agree, but I'd like to find out how you arrived at that conclusion."
It's also helpful to throw in a thought of your own, so you're not just concentrating on getting to the bottom of what they said, which can feel a little too intense for some. You might say, "I'm not sure I understand your viewpoint. I've always thought of it like this." You're introducing a possible new thought, and in responding to it they may be able to clarify their own understanding. "Oh, that's not what I meant. It's more like this."
If you reach a point where you have covered similar points twice without any significant addition of ideas, insights, or new avenues of thought, the discussion is done. Finished. A dead horse which will not improve upon beating. This is a rule we employ as Admins to stop arguments and prevent flame threads. In the RR, this may result in frustration for those with a thirst for knowledge, whose delight is to get things hammered out and fastened down. But it's nearly impossible to do that without making the person you're talking to feel like they're personally being hammered and pinned to the wall. And so you just need to stop there. If you really want to continue at that point, tell them "I don't want to make you feel pressured, but I'm still interested in pursuing this. Do you want to, or would you be willing to take this up again another time?" That gives them an escape if they want one, and allows them time to recoup if they need it. Let them decide if and how it continues.
To summarize; you can lighten the tone by sharing something of your own thoughts in return for theirs. That helps people to get to know you (assuming they don't), and feel that they are talking with you rather than at you. And you can inquire every couple of rounds to see how the other party is holding up. This also communicates that you are friendly and interested. I think if you can use both methods with some regularity, you'll get good responses.
Silverlode
"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you." -On Fairy Stories
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 14 2009, 7:58pm
Post #90 of 178
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when I talked about cookies. Those are genuine responses and always welcome. What I don't like is going through what feels like a lengthy interrogation and getting a virtual pat on the head, like "Well done". "Well done? I argued all of that just so you'll finally admit my point was valid and give your seal of approval? What the.......?!!" This is the point at which clouds of steam begin rising above my head, even though I know perfectly well it isn't meant that way.
Perhaps instead of "cookies", I should have called them "dog treats", given when you've correctly performed all your tricks answered all the questions. "Sit. Speak. Lie down. Roll over. Shake. Up. Up!! Good girl! Well done!"
Gah! 
Silverlode
"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you." -On Fairy Stories
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Mar 14 2009, 8:09pm
Post #91 of 178
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One of the fun things about Tolkien
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...is that on so many points there *are* counter examples! How many different versions are there of Galadriel's parentage and potential "war crimes," just to mention one concept that wandered over time?
I personally really love it when one of the periodic "food fights" erupts here over one of these issues! Tolkien was often deliberately obscure, and often inconsistent, and that's part of what makes the legendarium so much fun. It's also part of what makes it much like "real" legends. How many versions are there of the doings of King Arthur and the Round Table? Robin Hood? the Norse gods?
The Rohirrim, by Peter Xavier Price
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 8:11pm
Post #92 of 178
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I can speak only for myself in that matter, but when I ask a question to which the answer is to be found in UT or Letters or anywhere, of course I want to know it and where (my Tolkien library is ever growing, so I even might have the source and just not remembering that part). What proves to be a problem is not to get a source-based answer, but the form of the answer particularly with the more complex ones.
Let me put it thus: Give me a summary and tell me where it comes from. When I have the book myself, I can look it up. When I don't own the book and still want to know more, I will ask for more details. That way, I don't feel like being clobbered over the head with too many facts at once. That's when I feel intimidated by the knowledge others have.
I hope it is understandable what I am trying to say!
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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sador
Half-elven
Mar 14 2009, 8:22pm
Post #93 of 178
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Only because of time constraints
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I have seen most (maybe all, but I am not CERTAIN I have read all the posts yet) of the RR regulars calmly listen and not become defensive about the continued expressions of other Tornsib's displeasure with their RR experience
As the one who was been singled out for denouncement as elitarian, both here and in Feedback, for the crime of asking many questions on a discussion which in previous years took two weeks - I do feel pretty bad.
And my answer to what I was accused of back the, of expecting everyone to know HoME like dernwyn does, is still the same: I have never read, nor even saw, any single page of it. I did refer to UT, but only because a couple of people suggested it as a ,ain book for discussion; and even then, I took pains to explain what was written there each time; as entmaiden pointed out; the movie board is far less helpful.
And I do not remember participating in many lengthy back and forth discussions: not because of my virtue; but because the differnt time zones often rend such a discussion impractical. By the time my response is read, most people have moved on, and lost interest. This is possibly the reason I receive relatively few cookies.
Please don't let this interesting discussion degenerate into a sador-hugging thread. I think I know who likes and appreciates my posts; and will find it hard to believe in the sincerity of those who suddenly feel bad.
As I mentioned in Feedback, when I first joined in I decided to quit as soon as I feel I have offended anyone. I broke the rule since, as I found it difficult to leave all of a sudden, and felt that in that occasion the offended person overreacted. As I judge, or hope, that in this room some are still interested in what I have to say, this is not a good-bye post. But I have some serious thinking to do about how and how much to carry on, whether and what to change in the style or content, and how often should I frequent boards in which I feel less welcome.
"They always wished to talk to everything, the old Elves did" - Treebeard
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 8:24pm
Post #94 of 178
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Suddenly, this popped up in my head...
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'You'll wish there was more that you could tell to satisfy the Questioner, indeed you will' . =)
Maybe we could add your post to the collection of stickies? ;)
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 14 2009, 8:31pm
Post #95 of 178
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that we're all part of a community and we all have an equal responsibility for the health of the community. But since it is a community, there's bound to be many different types of personalities. In order for the community to thrive, we all have to give and take.
When you say that certain members of the community don't need to change, how is that fair? Why are they exempt from trying to get along with others and insist that the rest of the community get along with them?
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 14 2009, 8:31pm
Post #96 of 178
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we have stepped in to address problems of approach before. But we need people to give us a cause.
If the Admins PM someone and say "You're browbeating that poor person. Knock it off." and the person replies "It was just an intense discussion and they didn't say they were upset", we have to admit that it's not against the rules and no one actually said they were upset, even though it looks to us that they were.
But if someone PMs us and says "This is something I keep running into, and it's a problem for me." we can PM the person and say "We've been hearing from people (unspecified) that this bothers them, so let's talk about making a course correction here." and then we can discuss with that person how to avoid giving that impression.
And that is why we're always asking people to tell us. Not because we like tattletales, but because there's a pretty good chance we already know the problem exists but we need something tangible to authorize our stepping in. In a sense, we need probable cause for a warrant, because the TORn Admins do not generally feel justified in requiring people to post to our preferences. But we do feel justified in attempting to prevent people being stepped on. And we're not going to go accuse someone of awfulness simply based on the fact that someone's upset, either. We work at understanding both sides before handing down any ultimatums.
And of course if we missed the problem, we're always glad to have it brought to our attention so we can keep an eye on it in future. We're not perfect, but we try really hard.
So PLEASE talk to us!
Silverlode
"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you." -On Fairy Stories
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 8:38pm
Post #97 of 178
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Usually I don't tend to complain about every little detail, but if I ever get really irritated, I promise to talk to you instead of just feeling hurt and going away to sulk!
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 14 2009, 9:07pm
Post #98 of 178
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We'll appreciate that. Yes, sometimes we have to tell people they just need to deal with it, but often there is something we can do.
Silverlode
"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you." -On Fairy Stories
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GaladrielTX
Tol Eressea
Mar 14 2009, 9:18pm
Post #99 of 178
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You can insist all you want they they have a responsibility to stick around and complain, but that's your opinion, and they're not going to. It's just the way people are. My understanding is that this discussion was so we can increase RR participation. Browbeating people for being sensitive, for not confronting overbearing personalities, and for not crying to the admins isn't going to help.
~~~~~~~~
The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 9:27pm
Post #100 of 178
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Don't know how much time I will find to participate in more threads in the RR, but I'm willing to try to join at least some.
And believe me, if you'd write as much Spanish as I'm now writing English, you would improve very much in a relatively short time. 10 years ago I could not even read an English picture book without stumbling over too many words I didn't know and needed a dictionary to understand it. And my ability to write something in English was much worse than my ability to understand even such a simple text. Quite a difference to today, don't you think? It is really a matter of practice and experience.
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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