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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 14 2009, 2:17am
Post #26 of 178
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this was a reply to your post, and I tried to make my language as general as possible, but I forgot to include a statement that I wasn't directing my replies to you, but to anyone who avoids the Reading Room.
So I challenge anyone who feels intimidated by the RR - what are you doing to fix the problem?
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Mar 14 2009, 3:24am
Post #27 of 178
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...everything I can - archives, present discussions. I hope this way I'll gather more knowledge and will improve my language, so I feel comfortable to post more and/or participate in discussions which are now difficult for me.
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on the Main board!
I believe
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Mar 14 2009, 3:43am
Post #29 of 178
(2429 views)
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Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on the Main board!
I believe
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Altaira
Superuser
Mar 14 2009, 3:59am
Post #30 of 178
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I applaud this thread and those participating, I really do. However, I feel the need to point out that this is far from the first time this exact same conversation (why is the RR intimidating) has been held. It’s been brought up multiple times in past years and the end result is that the RR is *still* perceived as intimidating and, amazingly, many still seem to be genuinely clueless as to why.
To borrow a phrase from a recent post of mine on Feedback, a legitimately large part of it is perception. Users who venture in here see, or *think* they see, a higher standard of discourse than they think they're capable of, or don't have the time to emulate. Luckily, as some have pointed out, if one has the courage to venture a post, a nice discussion often ensues.
That said, unlike Aunt Dora and entmaiden, I *have* seen rudeness and bullying here in the RR. Inferno, one of the founders of this very board, mentioned an instance on the Feedback board. It was one of the rudest comments I've ever seen on the boards, and (understandably) I doubt she's been back since. And, (memories are seemingly short here) while that poster is no longer here, a large number of people (many of whom are still here) protested, even vilified me, when I deleted that reply. That experience was the beginning of my own exodus from this board.
I've also seen a number of newbies venture in with 'uneducated and un-researched' comments about their (granted, sometime wild) thoughts and theories, only to be pressured to cite their sources or to literally be ganged up on by regulars anxious to prove, without any shadow of a doubt, that they are right and the newbie is wrong. Without fail those newbies left the boards altogether, never to return.
In my experience, people gravitate to TORn either for love of the movies or for love of the books. It’s common sense that those who come to TORn for love of the books will naturally and enthusiastically want to dip their toes in the waters of the RR. So, while I agree that the scholars and regulars of the RR shouldn’t have to change their fundamental style of posting, I believe they *should* make every effort and, yes, even bend over backwards if necessary to be welcoming to newbies and to help them along and encourage them to pursue their knowledge of all things Tolkien – not beat them over their heads with how un-enlightened and unread they are.
I believe the RR ultimately can and should be both a haven for scholars *and* a place where anyone who loves Tolkien’s writing, no matter how well read, can feel welcome to explore their theories and thoughts. In other words, the regulars can gang up on each other to their hearts content, but should lighten up on, and even nurture, new people.
If this thread can accomplish that, I will be both astounded and delighted.
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
TORn Calendar
(This post was edited by Altaira on Mar 14 2009, 9:25am)
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 14 2009, 4:02am
Post #31 of 178
(2471 views)
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your biggest obstacle to participating in, and enjoying, the Reading Room is yourself. The Reading Room is only as good as the participants, so if there's something you don't like, then do something about it instead of waiting for someone else to do it.
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
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Tolkien Forever
Gondor
Mar 14 2009, 4:24am
Post #32 of 178
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Darkstone's post #9 in this thread tells of the origin of the term, but it's basically slang for compliments and encouragement.
I still have no idea what a 'cookie' on the computer is..... 
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 5:20am
Post #33 of 178
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Thank you for what you said, A.S. I did not know the Reading Room history. I think we can do better than the same old status quo.
Scholarship that does not teach or nurture scholarship in others is sterile. Ideas need transmitting or they're not even hot air, they're nothing whatsoever. So if we drive people away, how can we fully realize our scholarship? How can we teach and nurture? How can we pass anything on?
It goes the other way, too. Without a stream of new information, insight, and perspective, scholarship starves. We can only get so much out of reading books all by ourselves, because we read with the same old eyes, the same old habits of synapse connection. If we don't encourage new people to come in and stimulate us with something different, our scholarship will dry right up.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 5:26am
Post #34 of 178
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Oh--you mean computer cookies? When you visit some sites, they automatically send a cookie to your computer. (I have no idea why they call it that!) These contain a program, usually to keep track of your preferences, so as to smooth things over every time you return to that site. Mostly they're harmless or even useful. Occasionally a sight will be booby-trapped and send "mal-ware", sort of a poisoned cookie. So you have to have filters to watch for those. But mostly they're okay.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Half-elven
Mar 14 2009, 6:47am
Post #35 of 178
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But I hope I'm not "anxious to prove, without any shadow of a doubt, that [I am] right and the newbie is wrong" or "beat them over their heads with how un-enlightened and unread they are." That sounds awful, and nothing like the Reading Room I know and love.
That said, unlike Aunt Dora and entmaiden, I *have* seen rudeness and bullying here in the RR. Inferno, one of the founders of this very board, mentioned an instance on the Feedback board. It was one of the rudest comments I've ever seen on the boards, and (understandably) I doubt she's been back since. And, (memories are seemingly short here) while that poster is no longer here, a large number of people (many of whom are still here) protested, even vilified me, when I deleted that reply. That experience was the beginning of my own exodus from this board.
I find this example frustrating because I have no idea what you are talking about. Still, as an admin I'm sure you seen the worst of it, since that is what admins should focus on and address. I have not, or if I did I've blocked it out.
I think it is far more likely, however, that a newcomer's theory will be challenged, politely and reasonably, but that some newcomers don't like to argue. Many people don't like to argue, and that's fine, but other people do like a well-reasoned give and take, and find it enlightening. What makes the Reading Room intimidating to some is precisely what makes it attractive to others. In the immortal words of Monty Python:
M: An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
A: Yes it is!
M: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
I like reasoned, intellectual argument. I try to stay away from mere contradiction, but in order to argue as an intellectual process, I must take up a contrary position. If people don't like that, tell me! I'll apologize and drop it.
The other thing I've noticed is that many lurkers are afraid of saying somethig someone else already said, or seems likely to say, and perhaps to say better. The key is not to look at what anyone else says before you answer. I don't care if you've said the same thing as everyone else. The process of thinking through your own answer is, I judge, highly valuable. And often the differences between the answers is enlightening.
And finally, many people just don't have the time or interest to keep up with the pace of the Reading Room, which unlike the other boards is a sort of neverending conversation about Tolkien's books. There's a treadmill quality to it, sometimes slower, sometimes faster, but never stopping, and some people, I judge, just don't want to answer all those questions posed by the discussion leaders. They fall behind, judge that they will never catch up, and leave the board for some other venue. And people who already are intimidated by the ongoing conversations are unlikely to start a new thread of their own. They are far too afraid of embarassing themselves.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 14 2009, 6:48am
Post #36 of 178
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"I thought N.E. Brigand was intimidating."
[In reply to]
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"Intimidating!" cried squire. "And so am I, very intimidating: more intimidating than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought before the seat of Curious. And FarFromHome is intimidating, and Darkstone is intimidating. You are beset with intimidations, Dreamdeer, for you are intimidating yourself, in your own fashion."
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Mar. 9-15 for Languages, Peoples, and Translation.
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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Curious
Half-elven
Mar 14 2009, 6:54am
Post #37 of 178
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being placed on the throne of the Dark Lord! Very funny, though. And apt.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 14 2009, 7:08am
Post #38 of 178
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And I like to be challenged. When I post a comment here, I do so understanding that it may be questioned. (And I would expect that any of the four modes of discussion outlined by Dreamdeer allow for positions to be challenged -- is that right?) But other people have different expectations. What should the default response to here be? Do we assume that people Perhaps for posters new to, or returned after a long absence from, the Reading Room, we should find a way of ascertaining that they also welcome such challenges. Wait for an affirmative response to a "Would you mind if I questioned a few points?" post before moving on to the questions themselves? I don't know how practical that is, though -- do others have similar thoughts about how everyone can be clear about what kind of responses are desired? And how much that should rule everyone else's desire to say something?
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Mar. 9-15 for Languages, Peoples, and Translation.
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 8:32am
Post #39 of 178
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I'll try not to feel so intimidated by sheer knowledge in the future. It may take a while, but I'm trying!
And to make it clear, I don't blame the scholars here for their posts; they're often great and very interesting. It's my own fault that I am overwhelmed by all that knowledge!
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 8:41am
Post #40 of 178
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I've been here barely 15 months, in fact. And I've learned from experience that online you can get the meaning wrong even with people you know well. Without facial expressions and all that, you simply have to miss a joke, a sarcastical undertone sometimes - and take it the wrong way. That's inevitable. But IMHO, that only becomes a problem when we take everything personally instead of trying to clear the misunderstanding up.
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 9:01am
Post #41 of 178
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the RR to change, not really. Let people enjoy their scholarly discussions. I just can't help feeling intimidated by the knowledge others have!
And what am I going to do? Just started my first thread 
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Mar 14 2009, 10:16am
Post #42 of 178
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When I first discovered the Reading Room some years ago, I had just been inspired to read LotR from seeing FotR and TTT movies. I read a lot for recreation, but am far from a scholar. I was fascinated by the chapter discussions, and one day ventured to ask a dumb question: How did Rangers live? (meaning, how did they support their families, buy pipeweed and ale, etc.). Well, I got a variety of answers, ranging from "Tolkien wasn't really into economics that much" to some dissertations on how the early mannish tribes lived in the First Age (which I had never heard of). As weeks went by, I heard questions being answered with discourses on the habits of various F-elves*, whom I had never heard of, explanations of why it was important that Gandalf was an istari of Manwë while Saruman was an istari of Aulë (whatever that meant), and a lot of other pretty esoteric stuff.
I suppose maybe I could have felt intimidated, but in fact this worked for me exactly the way that Tolkien's oblique references to First Age history works in LotR: it made me realize there was a lot more out there to explore. It was like peeking out from a remote valley and seeing a shining city out there, just waiting to be explored. So, I explored it, and over the next several years read (and loved) a lot more of the background documents. I'm still not a scholar, and I still get the F-elves confused sometimes, but it's really fun to know just what an extensive and detailed history Middle Earth has!
So, I would encourage anyone who feels intimidated by some of the more knowledgeable RR denizens to just relax and enjoy the fact that there's all that extra stuff out there. Whether you choose to explore it or not doesn't really matter; no one will dump on you if you don't. But isn't it fun to know it exists?
We get a whole range of participants here, from book newbies like I was at that time to very serious scholars, and a lot in between. I have always found even the folks we refer to as The Wise to be welcoming and basically delighted that anyone is interested enough to come in here and participate at whatever level is enjoyable and entertaining to them.
*Major characters in the Silmarillion, mostly related to each other and all with very similar names beginning with F.
The Rohirrim, by Peter Xavier Price
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 14 2009, 10:42am
Post #43 of 178
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But you can make me stop caring.
I'm one of those who has stopped participating here. The simple reason, and the one that I usually give is that I don't have time. The complex underlying problem is what I don't have time for. I don't have time to make a comment and then defend it against a long series of challenging questions. Now, I like intelligent analytical discussion. I even like nitpicky analytical discussion. As I said before, I'm not intimidated by it. And given enough time, I generally can come up with a solid answer for all questions. In times past, I have had sufficient free time to spend hours here but I don't anymore. I don't have daylong internet access like some, so I can't answer a long string of challenging questions in a timely manner. This makes me reluctant to enter a conversation here. But if I'm honest, there's a bit more to it than that.
I have on occasion argued a thought through to its ultimate conclusion and been "given a cookie", to use Darkstone's phrase. The problem is, I don't want or need a cookie. I'm not looking to be rewarded for my intelligence or my plain dogged determination in conversation. I like a little give-and-take in my discussions, not state-and-defend. I like to talk to people who hear what I have to say and respond to it; perhaps add something - a further thought, an observation, an additional fact. Something to make me think more, not just make me explain in more detail why I already think what I said. I don't like talking to people when I feel that they're responding to my comments with "Prove it!". Questions are good to elicit more information and bring up more material. I don't much care for them when I feel they're hoops I'm jumping through to get to the end of the obstacle course and win. I'm not competitive in that way. I've always loved deep detailed logical discussion but I've never had the desire to join a debate team.
This relates to the point Altaira was making about perception. It isn't the fact that questions are being asked. It's the manner in which the question is asked. And what goes with it. What do I get when I answer your question? What are you offering me in return for my time and effort? I don't want a reward, or a grade, or a gold star. I want to know if my comments caused someone else to notice something new, or if they added to something, or someone has something to add to take it into realms I haven't thought of yet. I don't need to prove to the world that I had a valid train of thought - thanks very much, if that's what I wanted to know, I would have said "I've been thinking this. Do you guys think that holds up under examination?" More than once I've found myself in a discussion with people here feeling that I was defending my post as if I were in front of a board examining me for a thesis, and got irritated in spite of myself because I knew quite well that they were genuinely interested. But their style of questioning bugged me no end. And the last few such discussions weren't even in the RR.
I'm not carrying grudges, and I'm not hurt or offended because I know it's a conflict between styles, not a matter of intent. I've been around here way too long to take things said on a message board too seriously. And I like all of you. But when I get done defending my ideas in this manner, I am often weary of the topic. And cranky. And feel that I have spent too much valuable time on something that ultimately doesn't matter in the larger scheme of things and I could have been accomplishing one of the myriad RL tasks that are waiting for me. And that's not why I come to TORn. That isn't how I feel about LOTR or Tolkien in general. That isn't how I used to feel about in-depth RR discussions, but I feel that way too often now, and so aside from brief Adminly glances in to see that decorum is being maintained, I don't come in here. I've stopped caring.
However, there are quite a number of people who clearly would like to find a way in and are finding it difficult. It's no good telling someone who feels intimidated not to feel that way. If they knew how to just not feel that way they already would have chosen not to. So where do we go from here?
I have only one suggestion to make, for what it's worth. I wrote this in the context of arguments and it's perhaps oversimplified, but I think it's a valid consideration for this discussion. Find out who you're talking to. Especially with a newbie (to TORn, or just to the RR). Can you tell from the person's choice of words whether they are mostly interested in facts or feeling/reacting to the topic? And then respond in kind, as far as you can manage it. If they're a Relator, they will not be happy arguing Logic with you all day. If they're Logical and you're a Relator, they may need something concrete to hold onto while you're talking in the very abstract realms. If you want to be especially helpful, include major hints in your own posts as to what you hope to get out of the conversation to let people know your own style. You may not "get" the other person's approach, but you can try to be aware and make allowances for it.
And that's all my time used up for tonight.....
Silverlode
"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you." -On Fairy Stories
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Kelvarhin
Half-elven
Mar 14 2009, 11:06am
Post #44 of 178
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once again you've put across a concept that I was struggling to find the words for.
I too don't want to be given a "cookie" But I would like people to read my question and answer it in the manner it was asked. If I want an indepth academic answer I'll phrase it that way. But if I'm more interested in their inner feelings towards something that's what I want to hear from them.
Sadly our western schooling sets us up to tend more towards an academic response to questions. Emotive/intuitive responses are generally frowned upon and repressed.
Probably haven't put this very well again, but that's my two cents anyway.
Warning - over washing may cause colour to fade
Kelvarhin's Universe~~~~~~~Laerasea's Travelling TORn Journal
One book to rule them all
One book to find them
One book to bring them all
And in TORn bind them
In the land of TORnadoes...where the brilliant play
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a.s.
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 11:39am
Post #45 of 178
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Only one comment:
I have on occasion argued a thought through to its ultimate conclusion and been "given a cookie", to use Darkstone's phrase. The problem is, I don't want or need a cookie. I'm not looking to be rewarded for my intelligence or my plain dogged determination in conversation. I like a little give-and-take in my discussions, not state-and-defend. I like to talk to people who hear what I have to say and respond to it; perhaps add something - a further thought, an observation, an additional fact.
Here's the comment: sometimes I don't have anything to offer but a cookie. I'm not trying to be facile, I'm being truthful. Sometimes what happens is people (and "people" includes me, myself) put a great deal of time and energy and thought and plain old composition into a wonderful post, very interesting to read with lots of great points and/or conjectures. A post that is a pleasure to read and think about.
But the only response I can come up with is: wow, thanks for that. It gave me a lot to think about. Or some such cookie.
Because all of the things you list as tiring in composition (time, effort, thought) are likewise tiring in response. And sometimes the post I just read is so entire, so complete, so well thought out and written that it does not demand anything but TO BE read.
So being given a cookie is not necessarily a bad thing, in the RR or elsewhere, particularly when the cookie is being extended in the hand of one of the regulars that you know from previous experience is capable of long, intense analysis. When offered such a cookie, it is really just a comment on the quality of one's post.
But that, of course, goes back to getting to know people well before jumping to conclusions, to avoid jumping to conclusions in the first place, doesn't it?
Just a thought. I'm personally such a Relator, on top of which is a lot of Healer, and right now my Kumbaya urge is coming out pretty strong, too. I'm trying to supress that latter one, but it keeps threatening to break into song...
LOL
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana
Call Her Emily
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a.s.
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 12:05pm
Post #46 of 178
(2630 views)
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I would like to say it's evident, but evidently, it' s not
[In reply to]
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What should the default response to here be? Do we assume that people Perhaps for posters new to, or returned after a long absence from, the Reading Room, we should find a way of ascertaining that they also welcome such challenges. Wait for an affirmative response to a "Would you mind if I questioned a few points?" post before moving on to the questions themselves? I don't know how practical that is, though -- do others have similar thoughts about how everyone can be clear about what kind of responses are desired? And how much that should rule everyone else's desire to say something?
I don't think we need a "default position", that is way too simple.
I would like to say that it must be evident when people are getting upset, but this same complaint comes up so often that apparently, it's not evident. So I just have some general thoughts on trying to avoid tone-deafness in a conversation that is akin to spoken words yet typed on a page.
For the GENERAL POPULATION, and by this I include EVERYONE except those you know from long experience do not mind such a "conversation", avoid repeated back-and-forth nit pick. YOU MAY NOT FEEL (er, I don't mean "you" as in "you, NEB", I mean an INCLUSIVE you for all of us in the RR) that you are nit-picky, but I guarantee that everyone else does.
Avoid this, I mean:
me: I just posted a composition that obviously took me a lot of time, it is six paragraphs and I made several points.
RR regular: I don't agree, and here's why.
me: really? Well, I don't see it that way, but maybe I didn't phrase it well. I'll try again, here's why I think what I just said.
RR regular: I still don't agree, and here's why.
me: gee, I'm getting a little frustrated. You keep saying I said X but I really did not think I said X, I thought I said x. I simply don't agree with you equating X with x, sorry.
RR regular: How can you still disagree with me? It is clearly stated in Y by Sir W that x is X.
me: OK, thanks.
And I never try to post a thoughtful, long post again.
Now, some of this is "style". Some of this is people need to be validated just for participating, which once they become regulars (and we all know who are regulars are, on every board...the people who show up!) they won't worry about so much because they will begin to understand the culture here, which does not, on the whole, reward participation for the sake of it.
But much of this is being tone-deaf to other people, and since this complaint comes up repeatedly it is worth thinking about. People cannot change their basic personality---nor should they have to (see my previous post in this thread). But they can change their attention to tone, that is simply a learned skill and CAN BE LEARNED.
Sometimes the best response is "I haven't thought of it that way" when someone has disagreed with your disagreement twice in the same conversation! DROP that conversation. Everyone here is quite intelligent, on the whole, and can read and understand at least an undergraduate level of discourse and if you cannot convince someone (who is not one of your regular fellow-arguers whose style you know) in two replies, DROP IT. That is just basic polite behavior. This is not Debate Club. This is a bunch of people passionate about Tolkien talking about books.
We can continue the way we are, with a small group of posters arguing increasingly arcane points, or we can open ourselves to new posters. But we can't do the latter without attempting to find out why they feel disinclined to participate, and then deciding which of those complaints can be addressed by the RR and which are just the result of the kinds of conversations that are valued by those who want to continue here.
I think. I have to run out the door, literally, and don't have time to throw some smilies in to assist a reader with hearing my message. You all may raise eyebrows about smilies, but they are one way of communicating voice when typing words.
This was typed quickly. I have not edited. There is no offense intended in any of these paragraphs. I love the RR. I hope I have made that clear.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana
Call Her Emily
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 12:38pm
Post #47 of 178
(2437 views)
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Had wondered what the Rangers are living from myself And I know what you mean - Tolkien's world is just so rich that it takes a long time, even without all the contradictions out there (Gil-Galad's parentage ...) to learn even a part of it. But I prefer my facts in a more 'digestible' dose, and a RR discussion is sometimes simply too much. It's just not how my mind works.
To me it seems there are a lot of people interested in a bit lighter discussions of the books. I had thought I'm the only one who doesn't feel too comfortable with overly scholarly discussions, but I was clearly wrong. But now that we know, I don't see why we can't have both - the RR regulars can keep discussing how they always did, and the others can have their own threads, too. Then everyone can decide for himself in which sort of discussion to participate. Wouldn't that be worth a try?
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 12:59pm
Post #48 of 178
(2456 views)
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There's something I want to point out, too - English isn't my first language, and it takes me a lot more time and thought to write some longer, thoughtful answers - not only in the RR. To answer in RR style would sometimes take hours - and I simply don't have the time for it. It can be very difficult to express a complex train of thought in a foreign language, always grappling for the right word, always worrying to be unable to get my point across. And I doubt I am the only one.
Btw, that's the reason why I often keep out of too heated discussions, even if I would have to say something. But with emotions already running high, I'm usually too worried that I put something wrong and it sounds somehow offensive or comes over different than I meant it.
That said, I think you are on to something here with the tone. That's something that puts me off, when someone is insisting on his opinion without any obvious effort to understand my own POV. I don't know if I always manage, but I at least try to understand why people think different and to accept different opinions. In fact, I find it interesting in how many ways some details can be interpreted. Some just don't need a definite answer, IMHO.
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
(This post was edited by Peredhil lover on Mar 14 2009, 1:06pm)
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Mar 14 2009, 1:40pm
Post #49 of 178
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That is one of the very funniest posts I've ever seen on TORn
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and I've been here a long, long time.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Mar 14 2009, 1:43pm
Post #50 of 178
(2438 views)
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An easy example is when you log into TORn
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it asks you if you want your computer to remember your login and password. If you say "yes", it puts a cookie on your computer which basically consists of your login and password, so you don't have to type them in later. But some other cookies on other sites are put on without you asking.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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