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Ufthak
Rivendell
Mar 13 2009, 7:05pm
Post #176 of 202
(954 views)
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I think that's a little dangerous
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'Troll' is a label given to people on the internet who are offensive, so like all labels we need to be careful how and where we apply it. If you choose to define the 'champion-bully' as a troll, I have some reservations about your decision.
Offence is a matter of perspective. I know and use boards where swearing and graphic language is entirely commonplace, of the sort that would result in immediate deletion and potentially banning here. However, we get around the 'offensive behaviour' mark through the terms of service of forums. If a forum allows swearing, that's fine. If it does not, that's fine. Everyone knows where they stand. If you use foul language or flame a poster when the forum rules say you cannot, then you are being offensive in the context of the board, and there should and will be consequences.
Then we have 'offensive opinions', which is rather less clear-cut. There don't tend to be written rules on what sort of opinions are and are not allowed. After all, it is entirely possible to put together a politely-worded and curse-free post about, say, black people being inferior to white people. It is an opinion that I hope we all here would find offensive, but it would be possible to argue that it did not construe offensive behaviour *as such*, after all people are entitled to their opinions. However, due to the fact that the community at large would find it offensive it would be deleted, and justly so in my opinion.
Now, however, we have the 'champion-bully', who apparently manages to 'troll' by having a justifiable grievance but exaggerating the response. In this case, we are not seeing offensive behaviour or an offensive opinion, in fact the opinion might be the same as those held by many others on the forum. This is instead being labelled as 'trolling' because of exaggeration. However, determining what is or is not an exaggerated response is surely very hard to do? It is ENTIRELY subjective, and at the end of the day only the poster themselves will know whether or not they have exaggerated their response. Some people have very strong opinions on things that might seem trivial to others.
What I'm getting at is that offensive language and offensive behaviour will break the rules of a forum, and can be defined. Opinions offensive to the majority will normally be fairly obvious, and are relatively easy to define. To label someone a troll because you think they have a point but are taking it a bit far, however, is rather suspect in my book.
"Who the hell are you?" he growled.
"I the hell am Harry," I said.
He pulled out his own gym bag and slammed the car door closed. "You always a wiseass?"
"No. Sometimes I'm asleep."
-Harry Dresden, 'Blood Rites', A Novel of The Dresden Files
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Mar 13 2009, 7:54pm
Post #177 of 202
(934 views)
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"Troll" is really not a very definable quality, is it? It has a lot to do with intention, and who can really say what that is? If the intention is, "I like to fight, so I'll find a socially acceptable target from whom to defend the group, and goad him or her as much as possible, so as to give me lots of chances to do the defending", then that's very cleverly trollish--a troll in shepherd's clothing, if you will. Yet the exact same words might come from someone who doesn't like to fight at all, but who simply has gotten used to phrasing things more pungently than others might be used to.
So I don't say, "Phil N. diBlanc is a Champion-Bully!" I simply throw the term itself out into the discussion, so that people can think of that dynamic, and not go there. If somebody steps back and says, "Wait a minute--am I doing that? Or am I in danger of becoming that?" then that very moment of reflection can prevent it from happening at all. Or, if somebody says, "Am I coming across like that? That's not what I am, at all!" that also reaps good fruit, giving someone a chance to make a better impression.
I'm in no position to know what's going on in another person's heart. But if I help people become more introspective about their own hearts, that can't hurt. If things appear headed towards a cliff, I feel beholden to say, "Gee, is that a cliff over there?" Then people can slow down and inquire for themselves whether or not it is, in fact, a cliff or a mirage.
I do appreciate your carefully thought-out response.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Mar 13 2009, 8:20pm
Post #178 of 202
(951 views)
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I was the one who made the huge mistake to say why I thought certain discussions didn't get many answers (I think it was sador's discussion on an Appendix; I apologize for short memory and lack of time to check right now). The responses I got made me feel:
a/ they were just ignoring what I said and telling me why this exact type of discussions were the right ones;
b/ I'm an idiot with lack of proper knowledge.
Now, my problem with the RR is that amateurs or newbies' opinion is not considered seriously. I know what I'm saying as this is my job and I've spend many years to learn how important it is to appeal to people and to be able to listen to them and what they say! But I mean listen. For real. I found it sooo difficult to deal with this attitude in the RR then, that I chose to simply state "I'm an idiot and I lack knowledge" (not literally but I admitted my level was lower) and not participate in a discussion I otherwise liked because the Appendix discussed was interesting to me. What impressed me most was the lack of will to even try a different approach or at least offer two types of approach for different public... I don't know, I may really lack knowledge (and on Tolkien this is true, I haven't read many scholar works) or I may be asking for too much but what I've seen some more open discussions to get more answers. Also these discussions attract people who usually participate mostly on other boards and I find their input interesting, different than what has already been said a number of times (yes, I went back to the archives and read almost all of it).
And yes, I was already told the RR was for these who really want to go in depth but I will dare to disagree. The RR, just like the movie boards, should be for everyone who read and love the books and/or some additional works related to Tolkien, IMHO. It should be ... warmer, I guess. It is too academic, too heavy on terms, and when I see posts with sentences two-three lines long with three commas and two-three semi-colons... Well, I prefer to skip. I'm not a native speaker and I go to the RR to polish my language too but such posts not only don't help me, they actually make the language sound worse and heavier than it is.
Of course, not all posts are like this, not all discussions are like this, but the RR requires some thick skin and I don't think it should be like that. For example, the SCODs on the LOTR movie board may look simplier to some RR regulars but I dare to say some of them have offered extremely valuable points of view and led to really meaningful discussions partly because there is space, there is air in the discussion. One feels welcome and free to share whatever comes to mind. And there is no risk another one will jump on with requirements for proven records or artistic education. We still discuss or even debate but I've seen some very good outcomes of these debates and noone feels hurt.
That's what I mean about the RR - it could be more like a bench in the park where one sits in the sun with a favourite book and less like the university library with its velvet dusk and reddish students' eyes (sorry, this is what I remember). I'm convinced we all love Tolkien enough to read whatever we can by or related to him, there is no need to prove anything, is there?
Sorry for the long post but I'v ebeen trying to say this for a long time and the fact the RR raises such discussions and comments like these here says it all, IMHO. I agree not everyone could be pleased but aren't there too many who skip the RR? I think yes, and not only newbies (I still consider myself one too, I mean no offence).
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on the Main board!
I believe
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Draupne
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 13 2009, 8:21pm
Post #179 of 202
(924 views)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Mar 13 2009, 8:43pm
Post #182 of 202
(959 views)
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How about a cliquie stickie? /
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******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor
Mar 13 2009, 8:49pm
Post #183 of 202
(922 views)
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Would the cliquie stickie be visible to everyone or be "limited access"...weekly? //
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor
Mar 13 2009, 9:22pm
Post #184 of 202
(920 views)
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some things changed when the board went all "femine" last year. ;)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Mar 13 2009, 9:43pm
Post #185 of 202
(919 views)
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The icky tricky cliquey sticky would be visible only with the password "Vicky". /
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******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Mar 13 2009, 9:45pm
Post #186 of 202
(932 views)
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My tongue's tangled now! :-D
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor
Mar 13 2009, 10:03pm
Post #187 of 202
(915 views)
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in a month that I've had an inline pic show up smaller and blurrier/less readable than it should be! *grrr* It's worse in Flat Mode than in Threaded. Maybe it's not a coincidence that the original versions of both came from the same place...
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Mar 13 2009, 10:36pm
Post #188 of 202
(905 views)
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Yeah, that was too much fun to resist.
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Even old aunties get champion-bully-ish sometimes, and that was definitely one of those times. I was a little ashamed of how much fun I was having, but not enough to stop.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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ElanorTX
Tol Eressea
Mar 13 2009, 10:48pm
Post #189 of 202
(930 views)
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For the issues that Orcbane raises, in most cases I think the present boards work well, and that using 'collapsed' and 'last activity' functions make it easy to skip over what I'm not interested.
On some other boards the chance to mod is seen as a promotion or recognition that everyone should be able to earn after a certain length of time or number of posts, and newer members often ask for some quantifiable level at which they can apply. I think the different function of mods here has been thoroughly explained. Perhaps the sticky listing them should go or be duplicated under Feedback.
Some posters, long-term or new, occasionally get snappish. In most cases I believe that they are writing in haste and unintentionally slip into a dogmatic tone. I don't perceive systematic bullying as a major problem.
An issue raised by others:
The RR has been a favorite place to lurk, and the depth and quality of discussion has been astounding. Yet I too feel intimidated, not bullied but fearful, even though I have a BA/MA in English and a PhD in research psychology. I worry that my questions may be simplistic and my answers lack insight. Also, I can't be online every day and the discussion passes by so quickly. If many others have the same attitude, no wonder half the responses come from only two dozen members.
Sorry that I do not have Internet access to go into more detail. Thanks to all for making TORn the best it can be.
ElanorTX
"I shall not wholly fail if anything can still grow fair in days to come."
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 13 2009, 10:53pm
Post #190 of 202
(907 views)
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Your questions aren't simplistic, and your answers haven't wanted for insight. //
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<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Mar. 9-15 for Languages, Peoples, and Translation.
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 13 2009, 11:23pm
Post #191 of 202
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I'm sorry you were made to feel belittled.
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Would you help me to understand how the four Reading Room regulars, including myself, who responded to your complaint could have been more helpful? For reference, here is the post in which you raised your concerns.
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Mar. 9-15 for Languages, Peoples, and Translation.
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Mar 13 2009, 11:49pm
Post #192 of 202
(890 views)
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Sudden Cookies Of Death?
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 13 2009, 11:55pm
Post #193 of 202
(886 views)
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ScreenCap(ture) Of the Day -- a series on the LOTR-Movie board. //
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<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Mar. 9-15 for Languages, Peoples, and Translation.
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 12:04am
Post #194 of 202
(838 views)
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Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Mar 14 2009, 2:58am
Post #195 of 202
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In fact it was the Appendices that turned out to be heavy and not the discussion
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As you probably see from the posts. It may be true or not. To me it is not because I love the Appendices (this one included) and I've never found it that heavy to read or think about. I tried to help or at least I thought I was helping providing some feedback from a person who loves the Appendix but doesn't feel comfortable in this particular discussion (i did participate in the previous ones). In fact, I didn't provide anything. I tried to understand the leader's POV thus admitting the Appendices are heavy and need more time to discuss. I still feel starting new threads is disrespectful. And basically, it is the tone and the willingness to listen to each other. It all sounds very polite but... I also sound polite when there is a new person in our company and we are discussing some past things which he/she doesn't know anything about, and I say "Oh, please, don't feel isolated. We'd love to hear your stories too!" and then we go on with our stories. You know what I mean? I guess most people have experienced this "welcoming" attitude which maybe very well intended but it doesn't make one feel very comfortable, does it?
It's not good that sometimes such comments are found offensive and taken so personally. It is my belief that criticism is not a bad word. I can take quite a lot of it and find it very helpful. Not to mention I wasn't criticising but trying to explain what kept me from participating more.
In difference from this one, I did participate in Voronwe's discussion on Aragorn and Arwen's story which was a very exciting experience for me! As I said, not every RR discussion is heavy or not welcoming, or too tight, etc. I gave an example because I was the one who made these remarks then and believe me, I've been feeling sorry since then. But it shouldn't be like that.
P.S. I'm not giving up though  I try to read almost everything in RR and participate whenever I have the time. But I do try to grow thick skin. My question was "Is it necessary to test how thick people's skin is?" I just think it is not. "There is something in the air" is the best I can think of. It seems proofs are required here but since all this is part of different people's individual and emotional perception, I very much doubt such proofs would be available. And once again, it will be all up to the participants and leaders and their willingness to make an effort and hear what is said here.
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on the Main board!
I believe
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Mar 14 2009, 3:05am
Post #196 of 202
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The SCOD's are very comfortable indeed. I sometimes feel sorry they are considered simplier because I've read some pretty amazing stuff there. There have been disagreements (I had some because of my attitude toward Eowyn  ) but it has always been discussing and debating - never trying to prove who is right and who is wrong. In my opinion the right/wrong approach is wrong by default when it comes to any form of art.
And they definitely remind me of the scene you described - sharing with friends in our comfortable seats. having drinks, remembering, enjoying, diving into the emotion 
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on the Main board!
I believe
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 5:56am
Post #197 of 202
(873 views)
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Starting new threads is disrespectful? I thought people wanted me to. How is it disrespectful? Did I do something wrong?
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Mar 14 2009, 5:58am
Post #198 of 202
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I don't like the idea of needing to be right and prove someone wrong, either. In some kinds of query it works, but not as the preferred mode, and certainly not as the only mode.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Mar 14 2009, 1:55pm
Post #199 of 202
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What I said about starting new threads was related to my comments then on sador's discussion, not in general! I felt being disresepctful to ignore the leader's efforts and just start new threads with questions related to the Appendix being discussed. Not to mention it's breaking the rules in the RR, as far as I know. It doesn't relate to your threads now or anyone else's
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on the Main board!
I believe
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 14 2009, 3:44pm
Post #200 of 202
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Yes, it's generally considered rude for someone other than the discussion leader to post a new thread about the chapter currently under discussion, or about the next few chapters, for that matter. However, it's common for someone to respond to the discussion leader's questions with other questions or comments about the text under discussion -- with the understanding that respondents should try not to get ahead of the leader. It's also customary for the discussion leader to post an "open discussion" at the end of the week to allow for further remarks about the chapter.
And at any time, one can post new threads about other subjects.
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Mar. 9-15 for Languages, Peoples, and Translation.
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