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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
The Tale of Years (Appendix B): Part I – The 2nd Age, 1 -1600

Morthoron
Rohan

Feb 23 2009, 6:42am

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The Tale of Years (Appendix B): Part I – The 2nd Age, 1 -1600	Can't Post

The ‘Tale of Years’ section of the LotR Appendix has always been intriguing for many Tolkien enthusiasts, condensing thousands of years of Middle-earth history into a maddening, ambiguous and altogether too brief few pages. But what was once merely an interesting mine of Tolkien data for various long-winded Middle-earth disputes has taken on the added luster of possibly finding its way into the second of two planned Hobbit films, and a single vague sentence describing a certain year may well be the hinge-point for any number of aspects of the film, most importantly character development. I shudder at the prospect.

Not surprisingly, I will be offering an overview of ‘The Tale of Years’ chronologically, which is only logical, time wise. I will section off the discussion as follows:

Part I – The 2nd Age, years 1 – 1600
Part II – The 2nd Age, years 1601 - 3441
Part III – The 3rd Age, years 1 - 1976
Part IV – The 3rd Age, year 1977 - 3017
Part V – The 3rd Age, the Great Years 3018 - 3021
Part VI – The Last of the 3rd Age and Concluding Comments

There is a brief preface describing the end of each Age, but we shall dispense with dwelling on it, save for the sly literary device Tolkien often employs which ends the preface: “the histories of the time are not recorded here,” and later when he states, “Of events in Middle-earth the records are few and brief, and their dates are often uncertain,” as if implying the specific author of this piece (Frodo?) did not have access to the historical accounts of the 1st Age and barely anything for the 2nd Age (or perhaps I’m just reading more into the statement for the sake of a decent question).

Does Tolkien’s insistence that various other authors recorded the events of his mythos (Bilbo, Frodo, Elendil, Samwise, etc.) increase the depth of the story for you, or give the illusion of factuality? Why or why not?

I personally find the 2nd Age more intriguing than either the 1st or the 3rd Age. This is perhaps due to the dearth of information surrounding that epoch in comparison to the other Ages. Sador did an admirable job reviewing the Numenorean Kingdoms; therefore the necessity of reiterating the anomalies and errors of the royal line as fleshed out more fully in ‘Unfinished Tales’ would be redundant. But essentially the 2nd Age could be rightly described as the Age of Numenor, because its politics, empire-building and wars defined the era (of the 38 entries for the 2nd Age, 26 deal in whole or part with Numenor or Numenoreans in exile). And although it may be a Numenorean Age, predicated on the foundation through to the destruction of the ‘Land of the Gift’, the prime mover was, of course, Sauron, whether in his guise as Annatar, or in his last incarnation as the dark and dreadful Lord of Mordor.

You know, I had never really noticed it before, but Sauron started his seduction of the Elves in the year 1200 SA, but Celebrimbor and the Elven smiths of Eregion did not begin the crafting of the Rings of Power under Sauron/Annatar’s tutelage until 1500 SA (Celebrimbor completed the Three Rings in 1590), and Sauron himself did not forge the One Ring until 1600 SA – an interim of a full 400 years!

Discuss the significance of four centuries of lasting interrelationship between the Elves and Sauron. Do you not find it strange that both Galadriel and the Elven High King, Gil-Galad, immediately refused Sauron’s advances, yet the elves of Eregion (who certainly owed vassalage to the High King) remained on friendly terms with Sauron for such a long period of time (albeit in his incarnation of Annatar)?

From another standpoint, when reviewing the ‘Tale of Years’ or Tolkien’s other chronological records, do you perhaps find an inconsistency in Tolkien’s method of stretching out eras well past their plausible limits? Other cases in point would be the rather stagnant line of succession among the Ruling Stewards of Gondor, wherein no political or title change occurred for almost a thousand years, or the interminable line of Dunedain Chieftains. Do you consider this a weakness of an author perhaps lost in the vastness of his own creation?

Another interesting aspect of the 2nd Age is the Odd Couple relationship between the Elves of Eregion and the Dwarves of Moria. The primary motivation of the Noldor settling in Eregion at first seems to be based strictly on the Dwarves finding mithril: “This they did because they learned that mithril had been discovered in Moria.” But a genuine friendship eventually flourished, perhaps because the Noldor did not share the Sindar’s hatred of the dwarves stemming from the sack of Menegroth.

In other news, Sauron chose the land of Mordor as the site for Barad-dur in the year 1000 SA, sending local property values plummeting. It would seem even then that Sauron considered Numenor a greater threat than the Elvish kingdoms.

What do you think Mordor was like prior to Sauron’s negative influence? Rather fortunate for Sauron that mountain ranges form three sides of a square around Mordor, don’t you think? Is there any real world geological precedence for such a seemingly incongruous formation?

Read the ongoing serialization of MONTY PYTHON'S 'The HOBBIT', found here:
http://www.fanfiction.net/...y_Pythons_The_Hobbit

(This post was edited by Ataahua on Feb 23 2009, 5:53pm)

Subject	User	Time
The Tale of Years (Appendix B): Part I – The 2nd Age, 1 -1600	Morthoron	Feb 23 2009, 6:42am
My thoughts	Dreamdeer	Feb 23 2009, 5:04pm
Drawing the line	squire	Feb 23 2009, 10:34pm
Suddenly I'm the one looking for errors?	Dreamdeer	Feb 24 2009, 3:48pm
I have no desire to be creamed like the Spanish, or anyone else.	squire	Feb 25 2009, 12:24am
Mordor	Tolkien Forever	Feb 25 2009, 12:42am
Excellent points!	Dreamdeer	Feb 25 2009, 12:47am
real world boxy mountains	hanne	Feb 24 2009, 4:17pm
I'm always a bit surprised	Aunt Dora Baggins	Feb 25 2009, 5:36pm
The best I could come up with	Eowyn of Penns Woods	Mar 15 2009, 9:15pm
"...any historical value it may possess must always be of secondary importance."	Darkstone	Feb 23 2009, 6:24pm
ANOTHR Wiped Out Post!	Tolkien Forever	Feb 23 2009, 7:51pm
Thoughts.	Curious	Feb 23 2009, 10:42pm
Hey, darken down! Stop having fun! Take this more seriously!	squire	Feb 23 2009, 11:01pm
Perhaps I am sensitive about the Reading Room's	Curious	Feb 24 2009, 1:49am
In addition...	Morthoron	Feb 24 2009, 1:32am
Was Annatar pretending to be an elf?	Curious	Feb 24 2009, 6:32am
What 'Miscellaneous Spirits'?	Tolkien Forever	Feb 24 2009, 2:05pm
It's just a theory.	Curious	Feb 24 2009, 3:24pm
Never Heard That	Tolkien Forever	Feb 24 2009, 8:01pm
Check	Curious	Feb 25 2009, 7:53am
Door Number Three	Tolkien Forever	Feb 25 2009, 2:07pm
This is one of the most inexplicable editing decisions in the published Silmarillion	Voronwë_the_Faithful	Feb 24 2009, 8:05pm
Wouldn't It Be Great	Tolkien Forever	Feb 24 2009, 8:37pm
Very interesting!//	Curious	Feb 24 2009, 9:51pm
Not so implausible to me	Dreamdeer	Feb 24 2009, 4:02pm
Hmmmm....	Morthoron	Feb 25 2009, 2:06am
Difficult	Dreamdeer	Feb 25 2009, 4:04am
Tolkien was powerfully conflicted	squire	Feb 25 2009, 4:32am
Ah, but...	Dreamdeer	Feb 25 2009, 3:13pm
Nonetheless....	Morthoron	Feb 25 2009, 3:53pm
Still seems plausible to me...	Dreamdeer	Feb 25 2009, 4:20pm
Why Not?	Tolkien Forever	Feb 25 2009, 5:02pm
Some Thoughts About Some of Your Thoughts	Voronwë_the_Faithful	Feb 24 2009, 4:34am
The broader legendarium is a first class mess. Not the work of a niggling and perfectionist writer.	squire	Feb 24 2009, 5:34am
I am not "looking at the broader	Curious	Feb 24 2009, 6:25am
I don't get it.	FarFromHome	Feb 24 2009, 8:51am
Tolkien in his later years was not the literary equivalent of a dog chasing his tail	Voronwë_the_Faithful	Feb 24 2009, 2:27pm
Morgoth's Ring is my favorite book in the HoME series,	Curious	Feb 25 2009, 2:38pm
Actually, he never comtemplated eliminating the Two Trees	Voronwë_the_Faithful	Feb 25 2009, 3:32pm
Perhaps the HoME stories you love	Curious	Feb 25 2009, 6:18pm
Quite true	Voronwë_the_Faithful	Feb 25 2009, 6:30pm
??????	Tolkien Forever	Feb 26 2009, 12:54am
We discussed this recently.	Curious	Feb 26 2009, 2:04am
Oh Boy....	Tolkien Forever	Feb 26 2009, 4:15am
Enough....	Tolkien Forever	Feb 26 2009, 4:28am
Isn't calling an early 20th century English author "classist"...	squire	Feb 26 2009, 1:13am
Well, the emphasis of	Curious	Feb 26 2009, 1:56am
Where would I find each of these stories?	Curious	Feb 25 2009, 6:29pm
"The Wanderings of Húrin" is in HoMe XI.	N.E. Brigand	Feb 25 2009, 7:56pm
Thanks! I'm not	Curious	Feb 25 2009, 8:16pm
Among other unique features, that story has a hero lawyer and a trial scene! FYI //	squire	Feb 25 2009, 10:34pm
Sorry for the delay	Voronwë_the_Faithful	Feb 25 2009, 11:06pm
I should stop talking about serious / not serious. And I didn't say "mere."	Curious	Feb 24 2009, 3:02pm
"Mere" was probably my addition, I agree.	FarFromHome	Feb 24 2009, 3:36pm
Letter #160, as	Curious	Feb 24 2009, 6:49pm
Oh, that game...	FarFromHome	Feb 26 2009, 10:20am
Not that real history works that way	squire	Feb 26 2009, 11:24am
Agreed.	FarFromHome	Feb 26 2009, 12:00pm
And that's why I have bigger issues with you	Curious	Feb 26 2009, 12:23pm
Not at all.	FarFromHome	Feb 26 2009, 1:05pm
I have a bias	Curious	Feb 26 2009, 5:10pm
Well I'm glad...	FarFromHome	Feb 26 2009, 6:18pm
What, exactly, have you noticed?	Curious	Feb 26 2009, 7:40pm
That's difficult to answer.	FarFromHome	Feb 26 2009, 10:33pm
In the films, do we really witness those events?	N.E. Brigand	Feb 26 2009, 10:38pm
We witness them	FarFromHome	Mar 1 2009, 6:26pm
Yes, the book is hobbitcentric.	Curious	Feb 26 2009, 11:26pm
Sounds good to me.	FarFromHome	Mar 1 2009, 7:05pm
Gandalf, Gimli and Legolas, the hosts of Mordor.	N.E. Brigand	Mar 1 2009, 7:31pm
Myth of idealized heroes	Dreamdeer	Mar 2 2009, 12:30am
They may have foibles, but have any of them	Curious	Mar 2 2009, 3:29pm
Sin is relative	Dreamdeer	Mar 2 2009, 3:52pm
Hmm.	Curious	Mar 2 2009, 4:54pm
Are we on the same page?	Dreamdeer	Mar 2 2009, 5:33pm
How do we know	N.E. Brigand	Mar 2 2009, 5:42pm
Different intention	Dreamdeer	Mar 2 2009, 6:18pm
Who wants "better than average"?	Curious	Mar 2 2009, 6:39pm
Matter of degree and opportunity	Dreamdeer	Mar 3 2009, 4:23am
He also has divine and elven blood.	Curious	Mar 3 2009, 11:23am
I think it's a bit more complicated.	FarFromHome	Mar 3 2009, 12:34pm
Semi-divine,	Curious	Mar 3 2009, 4:18pm
Well, at least the female ancestors knew.	Darkstone	Mar 3 2009, 5:36pm
Dirhael is male.//	Curious	Mar 3 2009, 5:45pm
I know.	Darkstone	Mar 3 2009, 6:09pm
I see your point. Although	Curious	Mar 3 2009, 6:56pm
I can't see anything	FarFromHome	Mar 3 2009, 5:42pm
Is Gandalf human, then, by your definition?	Curious	Mar 3 2009, 5:50pm
Yes. //	FarFromHome	Mar 3 2009, 6:15pm
That explains alot.	Curious	Mar 3 2009, 7:00pm
Philosopher-King	Dreamdeer	Mar 4 2009, 2:04am
Faith in Christ, and the ennoblement of the noble	squire	Mar 2 2009, 7:26pm
Very interesting point!	Curious	Mar 2 2009, 11:03pm
Normalcy	Dreamdeer	Mar 3 2009, 4:34am
Heroes may inspire us, but	Curious	Mar 3 2009, 11:32am
Spiderman comes across as human too.	Curious	Mar 3 2009, 5:43pm
Nice point about the Ring	FarFromHome	Mar 3 2009, 5:49pm
Except	Curious	Mar 3 2009, 5:54pm
Agreed.	FarFromHome	Mar 3 2009, 6:23pm
I don't think so.	Curious	Mar 3 2009, 6:48pm
Aragorn as Elessar does not receive the Power of the Ring	squire	Mar 3 2009, 5:51pm
That line can be fuzzy.	Curious	Mar 3 2009, 6:02pm
Well, he is a King, for gods' sake.	squire	Mar 3 2009, 7:12pm
No, not sinister at all.	Curious	Mar 3 2009, 7:31pm
Police	Dreamdeer	Mar 4 2009, 2:19am
Where is the inquest	Curious	Mar 4 2009, 2:23am
Something subtler	Dreamdeer	Mar 4 2009, 2:28am
I find your point more persuasive than squire's.	Curious	Mar 4 2009, 2:13pm
Thank you!	Dreamdeer	Mar 4 2009, 3:52pm
Is the Guard a police force?	Curious	Mar 4 2009, 6:05pm
I concede both points...	Dreamdeer	Mar 5 2009, 4:32am
So what?	squire	Mar 4 2009, 3:10am
Sure I can imagine it.	Curious	Mar 4 2009, 11:14am
That explains a lot.	squire	Mar 4 2009, 11:40am
Good points--important distinction! //	Dreamdeer	Mar 4 2009, 2:10am
I won't repeat	Curious	Mar 2 2009, 6:04pm
Agreed.	Dreamdeer	Mar 2 2009, 6:21pm
Yep, there's a bright line between them.//	Curious	Mar 2 2009, 6:32pm
My edits vanished	Dreamdeer	Mar 2 2009, 4:02pm
Oops--they didn't disappear!	Dreamdeer	Mar 2 2009, 4:04pm
Tolkien's characters are believable within	Curious	Mar 2 2009, 5:16pm
Think of hobbits as a lens, not as authors	squire	Mar 1 2009, 7:40pm
That works for me.	FarFromHome	Mar 2 2009, 5:28pm
FYI: "mythology for England" isn't Tolkien's phrase.	N.E. Brigand	Mar 2 2009, 5:46pm
I take back the "gag" remark	squire	Mar 2 2009, 6:54pm
Fair enough.	FarFromHome	Mar 2 2009, 7:13pm
I tend to agree with the 'hobbit-lens' rather than 'hobbit-author' distinction you make	sador	Mar 2 2009, 7:28pm
I discussed most of these points	Curious	Mar 2 2009, 12:16am
What's the big deal?	Tolkien Forever	Feb 26 2009, 2:01pm
I don't have any problem with your approach.	Curious	Feb 26 2009, 5:24pm
Dog Chasing the Tail	Tolkien Forever	Feb 26 2009, 10:45pm
Can we not take this subject any further?	N.E. Brigand	Feb 26 2009, 11:05pm
Agreed.	Curious	Feb 26 2009, 11:09pm
I agree totaslly	Tolkien Forever	Feb 26 2009, 11:14pm
No, I hate Tolkien.	Curious	Feb 26 2009, 11:07pm
Enchantment and Disillusionment	Dreamdeer	Feb 26 2009, 5:16pm
I like finding a middle ground.	Curious	Feb 26 2009, 5:37pm
Thank you for a gentlemanly response...	Dreamdeer	Feb 26 2009, 5:56pm
It's possible.	Curious	Feb 26 2009, 6:21pm
It's not unpublished.	FarFromHome	Feb 26 2009, 6:33pm
Written before LOTR was published.	N.E. Brigand	Feb 26 2009, 6:45pm
You are quite correct	Voronwë_the_Faithful	Feb 26 2009, 9:13pm
I don't think Tolkien lived in his own fantasy land all the time.	squire	Feb 26 2009, 10:08pm
You mistake my meaning	Voronwë_the_Faithful	Feb 26 2009, 10:27pm
I get you now	squire	Feb 26 2009, 11:35pm
I agree with both you and Curious about the narrator of LOTR	Voronwë_the_Faithful	Feb 26 2009, 11:42pm
I'll have to disagree...	Morthoron	Feb 27 2009, 2:00am
Who saw and reported on the "most tragic moment" in LOTR?	N.E. Brigand	Feb 27 2009, 2:11am
Very true...	Morthoron	Feb 27 2009, 2:39am
Hmm.	N.E. Brigand	Feb 27 2009, 2:55am
Not quite that.	FarFromHome	Mar 1 2009, 4:33pm
Do you really think	Voronwë_the_Faithful	Mar 1 2009, 4:49pm
Well, it's certainly arguable	squire	Mar 1 2009, 5:05pm
Sure.	N.E. Brigand	Mar 1 2009, 5:09pm
Focusing on the hobbits protagonists is not the same	Curious	Feb 27 2009, 8:13am
In the Prologue, Merry is considered to be a bit of an author	sador	Feb 27 2009, 8:29am
And I would argue	Curious	Feb 26 2009, 10:57pm
What if your premise is wrong?	N.E. Brigand	Feb 26 2009, 6:18pm
Yes	Dreamdeer	Feb 27 2009, 4:27am
Harder and more elusive.	N.E. Brigand	Feb 27 2009, 5:02am
Now it was my turn!	sador	Feb 24 2009, 1:43pm

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