|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lossefalme
Gondor
Apr 12 2007, 2:51pm
Post #1 of 39
(1478 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Are you up for some GOLD Nuggets? (Geeky Observation List Discussions!)
|
Can't Post
|
|
Hello and welcome, one and all, to the first edition of GOLD Nuggets! Pull up a chair, grab a Gramma-boo-grog and let’s have some fun.
This weekly post will use the Geeky Observation Lists compiled and maintained by our very own grammaboodawg to springboard discussions. Since this is a brandy-new discussion, I’m guessing that there will be some format changes from week to week based on feedback from all of you and I am open to that and welcome your suggestions.
The Geeky Observation Lists can be found here, and they are pretty comprehensive. Gramma would like you to know that if you would like to add a missed observation you should feel free to PM her or put it in your subject line and she’ll snag it. She just asks that “nitpicky, negative, or inconsistent/continuity problem items” are not offered (please see her introduction).
We will begin with The Prophecy.
1. How many of these 29 observations did you notice on your own? Seriously. There are some pretty geeky observations in there. If you did notice most of them, how many times did you have to watch the movie to pick them up?
2. How important are all of these details to the introduction? Does all of the attention to detail have more of a subconscious effect or an overt one? Either way, would this introduction be compelling enough that it would be just as effective without so much attention to detail? I mean, a lot of people seeing the movie had never read the books…
3. Do you think we read anything into some of these observations? Take #26 or #28, for example. These are really wonderful, symbolic observations, but were they intentional on the part of PJ, et al or were they just “happy accidents?” (If this is addressed in the Commentaries, I am woefully behind in watching them and I apologize.) Do we see connections because they are really there or because we want them to be there?
4. I have to ask: what is your favorite geeky Prophecy observation and why?
5. Just out of curiosity, how many of you knew or realized right away that it was Galadriel speaking during The Prophesy when you first saw the film? How did you know? (I’ll admit I didn’t figure it out immediately.)
Some more Prophecy pics:
   
(I tried to keep them small so that they wouldn't take forever to load for those TORnsibs w/o don't have broadband.)
(Formerly Lossefalme3, just in case you're wondering)*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Aragorn threw back his cloak. The elven-sheath glittered as he grasped it, and the bright blade of Andúril shone like a sudden flame as he swept it out. 'Elendil!' he cried. 'I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and am called Elessar, the Elfstone, Dúnadan, the heir of Isildur Elendil's son of Gondor. Here is the Sword that was Broken and is forged again! Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!' TTT, Book III, Chapter 2
And Éomer answered: 'Since the day when you rose before me out of the green grass of the downs I have loved you, and that love shall not fail.' RotK, Book VI, Chapter 5
|
|
|
weaver
Half-elven
Apr 12 2007, 3:19pm
Post #2 of 39
(1098 views)
Shortcut
|
29 Geeky Observations just in the Prophecy section??
I had no idea!
I will be back to play later -- but for now, just wanted to say WELL DONE and thank you for this new gift to this board!
Save a gramma-boo-grog for me!
Weaver
|
|
|
Magpie
Immortal
Apr 12 2007, 5:57pm
Post #3 of 39
(1105 views)
Shortcut
|
I snuck a moment and read the list. I don't have time to answer properly but I thought it would be easiest to answer one question now... rather than coming back to it:
My favorites:
6. The Kings in the prologue stand forming a "V" shape (same formation when they are chasing Arwen as Ringwraiths)
26. Isildur, who was succumbing to the power of the Ring, is shot by three arrows in the back (retreating), which is later echoed by Boromir being shot by three arrows to the chest (facing his enemy).
Why: just because
Enjoy the LOTR movie soundtracks?
Why not join us for fun and discussion in
the current Movie Music Trivia Game.
SPECIAL *APRIL* EDITION OF THE GAME
|
|
|
Morwen
Rohan
Apr 12 2007, 6:27pm
Post #4 of 39
(1089 views)
Shortcut
|
2. How important are all of these details to the introduction? Does all of the attention to detail have more of a subconscious effect or an overt one? Either way, would this introduction be compelling enough that it would be just as effective without so much attention to detail? I mean, a lot of people seeing the movie had never read the books…
I think all the details made a tremendous difference in the type of movie we ended up with. Even people who have never read the books can see they are in the presence of something more than your average sword-and-costume movie. The details give the impression that this film is only a small part of a much greater story, as it is.
Take #26 or #28, for example. These are really wonderful, symbolic observations, but were they intentional on the part of PJ, et al or were they just “happy accidents?”
26. Isildur, who was succumbing to the power of the Ring, is shot by three arrows in the back (retreating), which is later echoed by Boromir being shot by three arrows to the chest (facing his enemy).
Not sure about this one. I would love to believe that it was intentional, but it could have been luck. I'm sure that Bilbo's wearing of Sting was intentional. Even though his confrontation with Gollum wasn't filmed, it was implied and Sting was essential to that. 4. I have to ask: what is your favorite geeky Prophecy observation and why?
My favorite: 15. At the Battle of the Last Alliance, the elven archers shoot through the first rank of Elves holding spears. One of those arrows passes by Elrond's head close enough to cause his hair to blow and he never even blinks. Shows the skill and coordination of Elvish warriors beautifully.
I wish you could have been there
When she opened up the door
And looked me in the face
Like she never did before
I felt about as welcome
As a Wal-Mart Superstore--John Prine
|
|
|
ringhead91
Rivendell
Apr 12 2007, 7:35pm
Post #5 of 39
(1103 views)
Shortcut
|
1. I noticed some of them, but I have no idea how many!
2. I think the attention to detail was necessary, especially for first-time viewers. It might have more of a subconscious effect than an overt one, but I know some of us would be complaining if the details weren't there (including me).
4. My favorite observation would have to be #27: As we hear the line 'The Ring of Power perceived that its time had now come" - the sun is rising - giving light, aiding perception - in the east, over the land of Mordor.
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.
|
|
|
Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea
Apr 13 2007, 2:25am
Post #6 of 39
(1064 views)
Shortcut
|
I love this idea for a discussion series. My favorite observation is that of Gil-Galad having the proper insignia on his armor. Of course, I never noticed it, but I love that it shows that every detail was covered in the making of this movie. OK, not every detail, but a whole lotta love went into it, and I hardly feel worthy that someone slaved over Gil-Galad's armor for months and I wouldn't even have noticed it without someone pointing it out to me.
Number 28 made me laugh because it reminded me of a crazy observation I sent gramma once. I don't think it made the list. *Goes to check*. Holy cow -- it's there! I wrote G.O. #168!
Where's Frodo?
|
|
|
Lossefalme
Gondor
Apr 13 2007, 3:33am
Post #7 of 39
(1061 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Cool! *Makes note to self re: #168 for future discussion* //
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
(Formerly Lossefalme3, just in case you're wondering)*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Aragorn threw back his cloak. The elven-sheath glittered as he grasped it, and the bright blade of Andúril shone like a sudden flame as he swept it out. 'Elendil!' he cried. 'I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and am called Elessar, the Elfstone, Dúnadan, the heir of Isildur Elendil's son of Gondor. Here is the Sword that was Broken and is forged again! Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!' TTT, Book III, Chapter 2
And Éomer answered: 'Since the day when you rose before me out of the green grass of the downs I have loved you, and that love shall not fail.' RotK, Book VI, Chapter 5
|
|
|
hobbitlove
Gondor
Apr 13 2007, 3:39am
Post #8 of 39
(1064 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Brilliant! Brilliant! Brilliant! Wow! "GOLD" What a great title and what a great start.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
This is just stupendous, Lossefalme! You done good!
I adore the geeky lists - it is one of my favorite things about tORn and sibs, that they would like this kind of thing as much as I do. I just can't get enough.
It's true what others say that it shows devotion to and admiration of the spirit of Tolkien's work from PJ and everyone who worked with him. This is so lovely to know about them. It is why I will always be grateful to them and why PJ and all deserve every bit of credit we can bestow. IMhO, of course.
A note about the lists: I ran around the house like a maniac when gramma added one of my suggestions. In the world of geeks it is like being chosen for the "Queen's List" .
Cheers all you geeks!
hob
Egleria! Iorhael!
hob
(former nick: "HobbitLoveR*M-e" among several others, briefly)
|
|
|
Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea
Apr 13 2007, 4:07am
Post #9 of 39
(1073 views)
Shortcut
|
I was surprised to see it on the list, because gramma thought I was crazy at the time. When I watched FotR again I watched for the G-rune and realized that I am crazy. It's not there. Thanks, though!
You know what would be fun though -- to have everyone who contributed to the list tell which observation was theirs. Though I'm sure several people contributed hundreds of items instead of just one or a few they could point to.
Where's Frodo?
|
|
|
Lossefalme
Gondor
Apr 13 2007, 1:59pm
Post #10 of 39
(1049 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Excellent idea for a future post. Thanks!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
(Formerly Lossefalme3, just in case you're wondering)*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Aragorn threw back his cloak. The elven-sheath glittered as he grasped it, and the bright blade of Andúril shone like a sudden flame as he swept it out. 'Elendil!' he cried. 'I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and am called Elessar, the Elfstone, Dúnadan, the heir of Isildur Elendil's son of Gondor. Here is the Sword that was Broken and is forged again! Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!' TTT, Book III, Chapter 2
And Éomer answered: 'Since the day when you rose before me out of the green grass of the downs I have loved you, and that love shall not fail.' RotK, Book VI, Chapter 5
|
|
|
Lossefalme
Gondor
Apr 13 2007, 2:00pm
Post #11 of 39
(1041 views)
Shortcut
|
(Formerly Lossefalme3, just in case you're wondering)*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Aragorn threw back his cloak. The elven-sheath glittered as he grasped it, and the bright blade of Andúril shone like a sudden flame as he swept it out. 'Elendil!' he cried. 'I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and am called Elessar, the Elfstone, Dúnadan, the heir of Isildur Elendil's son of Gondor. Here is the Sword that was Broken and is forged again! Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!' TTT, Book III, Chapter 2
And Éomer answered: 'Since the day when you rose before me out of the green grass of the downs I have loved you, and that love shall not fail.' RotK, Book VI, Chapter 5
|
|
|
grammaboodawg
Immortal
Apr 13 2007, 2:19pm
Post #12 of 39
(1061 views)
Shortcut
|
Now I guess I'll hafta watch it again to see. It's not there? It's such a massively-geeky observation, though! ;)
Check again. If we can't find it, I'll *sniffle* pull it outta there :(
 
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!
"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
TORn's Observations Lists
|
|
|
grammaboodawg
Immortal
Apr 13 2007, 2:22pm
Post #13 of 39
(1085 views)
Shortcut
|
It could have 2 meanings. With the way she pauses as she says that line, she could be saying the Ring was perceived OR it perceived something itself. She does that pause thing again later when she's voice-over talking to Elrond about Frodo knowing the Quest will claim his life. It's intriguing!
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!
"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
TORn's Observations Lists
|
|
|
weaver
Half-elven
Apr 13 2007, 3:07pm
Post #14 of 39
(1086 views)
Shortcut
|
|
a lot I had missed here and some thoughts on Isildur...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I haven't looked at Gramma's lists for awhile -- there's a lot of Gold there!
Some of the ones I had forgotten about: the effect of the ring on Galadriel's hand, Elrond wearing a pendant/necklace and Bilbo wearing Sting, Elendil's helm being the same as the one at the Argonath, and the seven-star imagery associated with Isildur.
I always thought the inclusion of Lee and Howe in the shot of the nine men who get rings was a nice touch. Also the repeated gesture of holding Narsil a certain way that is introduced here, and repeated later by Aragorn.
I think it's interesting that they chose to link Aragorn with Elendil so much, starting with the visuals right here in the prologue --probably a result of the decision to make Isildur representative of the weakness of men, for keeping the ring, despite the fact that he was the one who actually takes out Sauron. Just goes to show that it doesn't matter how much good you do if you are a leader, if you screw up just once that becomes your legacy...
Aragorn finally does connect himself with Isildur in the films publicly, when he finally has to, in order to get the Dead to follow him. I just rewatched the films recently and was struck with the fact that Aragorn's facing down of the Dead is the moment where he really first accepts Kingship. The fact that he does it by accepting, and not rejecting his lineage with Isildur, and then uses his new power to extend forgiveness to another King who "failed" is really well done here. It not only brings closure to Aragorn's struggle with kingship, it's a nice bookend to what happened at the end of FOTR, when it was his forgiveness of Boromir, for "failing", and Boromir's acknowledgement of Aragorn as his King, that first sets Aragorn on the path to the throne. Now, he completes that journey, so that he can be fully resolved at the point he needs to be -- to lead the attack on Sauron at the Black Gate.
I like how you gave us just one section of GOLD things to discuss like this -- there's so much on that list, that breaking it up into bits and pieces like this is great way to "mine" this treasure!
Thanks, Lossefalme -- this is going to be a fun way to go through the films!
Weaver
|
|
|
Rivendweller
Lorien
Apr 13 2007, 5:12pm
Post #15 of 39
(1058 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Amazing list! I never noticed a few of these before!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
This one stands out to me:
When Galadriel holds up her hand wearing Nenya in the prologue, the faint wrinkles on her hands disappear, and they become younger.
I was planning to watch these again soon, so now may be the best time of all. I recently encouraged my daughters best friend to watch these - he is now in love with LOTR - I get a geeky thrill from that alone!
This is a wonderful way to discuss these fantastic films again! Looking forward to it!
Whether because Frodo was so worn by his long pains, wound of knife, and venomous sting, and sorrow, fear, and homeless wandering, or because some gift of final strength was given to him, Sam lifted Frodo with no more difficulty than if he were carrying a hobbit child pig-a-back....
Frodo opened his eyes and drew a breath....'Thank you, Sam,' he said in a cracked whisper. 'How far is there to go?' --RotK, "Mount Doom"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Formerly A'amel from days gone by.
|
|
|
Eventides
Tol Eressea
Apr 13 2007, 5:31pm
Post #16 of 39
(1041 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Ooooh!! What a great new discussion!!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
1. How many of these 29 observations did you notice on your own? Seriously. There are some pretty geeky observations in there. If you did notice most of them, how many times did you have to watch the movie to pick them up?
Reading through the observations from The Prophecy, I noticed 6 of them, all I believe on first viewing: #'s 3, 15, 18, 19, 22, & 25.
2. How important are all of these details to the introduction? Does all of the attention to detail have more of a subconscious effect or an overt one? Either way, would this introduction be compelling enough that it would be just as effective without so much attention to detail? I mean, a lot of people seeing the movie had never read the books…
I don't really know; but I think the more detail the better, probably. It adds layers and layers of interest that, if you wish to, you can continuously peel back.
3. Do you think we read anything into some of these observations? Take #26 or #28, for example. These are really wonderful, symbolic observations, but were they intentional on the part of PJ, et al or were they just “happy accidents?” (If this is addressed in the Commentaries, I am woefully behind in watching them and I apologize.) Do we see connections because they are really there or because we want them to be there?
I have no idea if they were intentional or not. :) And the connections are probably because of both.
I have to run at the moment, but I'll come back and read up some more on this later. This looks like it'll be a very fun discussion! :)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Eventides' Website!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"I stepped out of my body to let God slide in; although I'm still dressed in flesh that I spiritually died in. Alive in Christ a new creation started breathin', Life exists and through this came completion. ... I'm not that person anymore (more!)! That's what blood was shed for! No longer a failure, livin' life more abundantly, therefore you'll never see me livin' less than victory."
John Reuben.
"Desperation, needing You; every last breath I scream for You. Shatter me into a million pieces, make me new. ... Break me, mold me, make me what You want me to be; I am Yours, for You to use, so take and replace me with You."
Family Force 5.
"Under a light in Bethlehem, I was sifting through the sand; the saline burned my eyes, I was looking for Your hand. I gave up on myself, and left my pride disarmed; I cried out 'I'm alone!' and found myself in Your arms. 'Rest in Me, oh, My love; I have loved you before the world began. Rest in Me, oh, My love; you'll never wander too far to reach My hand.'"
Showbread.
|
|
|
Nuradar
Rohan
Apr 13 2007, 6:11pm
Post #17 of 39
(1043 views)
Shortcut
|
Wow, the lists are incredible. After reading them, I've gained even more respect for the films and for the dedicated crew who made them. Of the first 29 observations, I've only ever noticed 8 of them. Man, you guys are incredible for spotting some of these things!
My favorite geeky observations:
- The Kings stand in a "V", which is the same formation they use when attacking (Amon Sul, and on horseback chasing Arwen)
- John Howe and Alan Lee are two of the Kings - by the way, I also noticed that of the 9 kings, only John Howe and Alan Lee look at their rings with their palms facing outward. The other 7 kings look at their rings with palms facing inward. Do you think this was done on purpose to make those two stand out? I do...
- Isildur is shot by 3 arrows in the back and Boromir is shot by 3 arrows in the front. If PJ was aware of this and did it consciously, I'm very impressed. Highly symbolic of the character of each of those two............characters.
|
|
|
ringhead91
Rivendell
Apr 13 2007, 7:54pm
Post #18 of 39
(1084 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I think that's one of the best things about Galadriel...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
...that lines like that have more than one meaning.
Have you noticed it with any other characters?
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.
|
|
|
Lossefalme
Gondor
Apr 13 2007, 8:01pm
Post #19 of 39
(1033 views)
Shortcut
|
|
That's what we'll try to find out, gramma! //
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
(Formerly Lossefalme3, just in case you're wondering)*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Aragorn threw back his cloak. The elven-sheath glittered as he grasped it, and the bright blade of Andúril shone like a sudden flame as he swept it out. 'Elendil!' he cried. 'I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and am called Elessar, the Elfstone, Dúnadan, the heir of Isildur Elendil's son of Gondor. Here is the Sword that was Broken and is forged again! Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!' TTT, Book III, Chapter 2
And Éomer answered: 'Since the day when you rose before me out of the green grass of the downs I have loved you, and that love shall not fail.' RotK, Book VI, Chapter 5
|
|
|
Patty
Immortal
Apr 13 2007, 8:31pm
Post #20 of 39
(1027 views)
Shortcut
|
unbelievably enough, I haven't seen this page before, and I need to study the observations before discussing. Then, of course, I'll have to watch the films again too.
At home, amongst the Mallorn trees.
|
|
|
stormcrow20
Gondor
Apr 14 2007, 4:44am
Post #21 of 39
(1110 views)
Shortcut
|
|
A possible observation/theory and an idea.....
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
First of all, I enjoyed reading this discussion, and look forward to more. Obviously, this will bring new interest to grammaboodawg's lists, and therefore renew our interest and love for these films. Just this first discussion leaves me eager for my first LotR marathon!
I was scanning the list, and number four caught my eye, since that close up of Galadriel and the other elves is my favorite prologue moment. I admit that I've never noticed the wrinkles disappearing, so I watched that scene again tonight, still to no avail (cheap DVD player, maybe?).
But there is one thing that I have always enjoyed in this moment, and I noted that it's not mentioned in the observation list:
When Galadriel is examining Nenya, she turns her hand around so that her palm is up. Suddenly a breeze blows her hair back, and she seems surprised or startled, as if she has just realized the power of this Ring she has been given.
Is that an observation worthy of the list, or at least as an add-on to number four? Has anyone else thought about that theory?
And here's the idea: I think gramma should contact New Line and suggest that when they produce the ultimate edition DVD of LotR (the one that should feature every moment and scene filmed, plus bloopers, etc.), they should also include a pop-up trivia track of each film. All the info they need is right here on her observation lists!
Good job Lossefalme! Thanks for this discussion!
Expect me when you see me.
|
|
|
Lossefalme
Gondor
Apr 14 2007, 1:03pm
Post #22 of 39
(1025 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Excellent ideas and observation!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
It could be that the moment that that moment of surprise is when she became aware of Sauron's treachery. It is my belief that it was through the Rings that the Elves became aware of Sauron and his making of the One Ring, which is why they hid the Three. Hmmmm. VERRRRY interesting observation you made, stormcrow20. What do you think?
Anyway, I'll be sure gramma gets your observation to check out.
(Formerly Lossefalme3, just in case you're wondering)*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Aragorn threw back his cloak. The elven-sheath glittered as he grasped it, and the bright blade of Andúril shone like a sudden flame as he swept it out. 'Elendil!' he cried. 'I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and am called Elessar, the Elfstone, Dúnadan, the heir of Isildur Elendil's son of Gondor. Here is the Sword that was Broken and is forged again! Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!' TTT, Book III, Chapter 2
And Éomer answered: 'Since the day when you rose before me out of the green grass of the downs I have loved you, and that love shall not fail.' RotK, Book VI, Chapter 5
|
|
|
Loresilme
Valinor
Apr 15 2007, 12:36am
Post #23 of 39
(1031 views)
Shortcut
|
This is the most awesome debut! What a perfect name you came up with, and the whole format is soooo great. I need some time to read all this through and comment at length, but WOW I just had to say this is fabulous, and it's really going to be fun!!
Way to go Lossefalme !!!
|
|
|
Lossefalme
Gondor
Apr 15 2007, 12:45am
Post #24 of 39
(1016 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I'm so excited that you're excited! I am, too!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Thanks for the encouragement. I think it's going to be a lot of fun. There is so much great, geeky stuff to go over!
(Formerly Lossefalme3, just in case you're wondering)*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Aragorn threw back his cloak. The elven-sheath glittered as he grasped it, and the bright blade of Andúril shone like a sudden flame as he swept it out. 'Elendil!' he cried. 'I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and am called Elessar, the Elfstone, Dúnadan, the heir of Isildur Elendil's son of Gondor. Here is the Sword that was Broken and is forged again! Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!' TTT, Book III, Chapter 2
And Éomer answered: 'Since the day when you rose before me out of the green grass of the downs I have loved you, and that love shall not fail.' RotK, Book VI, Chapter 5
|
|
|
|
|
1
