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Jettorex
Lorien
Feb 6 2009, 9:36pm
Post #151 of 183
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I just saw this post of yours..
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..and have to say That i am sorry you experienced this.
Love, Truth, Honor, Adventure
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Feb 6 2009, 9:56pm
Post #152 of 183
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It is my belief that tales won't do him any harm
Someone in the discussion I listened to made the point that things in stories that may seem horrific to parents are accepted quite calmly by children, and that tales were a traditional way of introducing children to difficult ideas in a safe context. The stories' very clear and familiar structure was mentioned as being very important, because children soon understand that a happy ending is coming, and so can take the difficulties that the characters face in their stride.
I remember my kids enjoying the story of Peter Rabbit when they were small, but when I went to get a copy for my little granddaughter, I found that the story had been "abridged" and the bit about Peter's father being put into a pie had disappeared! I'll have to get her a copy of the original one of these days. I think it's good for kids to be introduced to potentially scary ideas in safe, fairytale contexts. That way it's less of a shock when they meet scary things in more realistic settings later.
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Feb 6 2009, 10:17pm
Post #153 of 183
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who said that prejudices are how we "make sense of the world". I didn't mean it the way it sounds, however, since I also pointed out that it's important for us to realize that that's what we're doing. In other words, I was trying to make the point you're making - that we tend to classify the things around us based on instinctive or socially-defined thinking that we haven't examined for ourselves. And although I don't think we can ever completely free ourselves of it, because that's how our minds work, we should always be aware of it and take care not to mistake our unexamined prejudices for some kind of objective truth. They're not - they're just one of the many shortcuts our brains use (optical illusions are the symptoms of another) because we just don't have the computing power to figure out every single thing we see from first principles.
I take your point about prejudice not being restricted to a dominant group. In working-class England it was often a young person's parents and peers who would discourage them from trying to "better" themselves - not out of malice but just because their worldview told them that that wasn't the right thing to do. The Gaffer is a perfect example.
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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squire
Half-elven
Feb 6 2009, 10:41pm
Post #154 of 183
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People are condemning Alexander? For being a ruthless conqueror?
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I didn't know that. I thought that was why he is still remembered. Without his matchless ability at ruthless conquest, the resulting "Hellenistic" culture of western Asia would not have been possible - and Hellenism is generally still regarded in the West as a "good thing", at least compared to the alternative (a Persianistic Europe). Alexander's personal openness towards cultural mixing as long as his sovereignty was acknowledged may be admired by moderns, but all the great conquerors (Attila, Rome, the Abassid Arabs, the Hapsburgs, FD Roosevelt), observe these rules. Long-lasting Empires are impossible without a willingness to respect local ways, as Hitler and Napoleon discovered to their sorrow.
Alexander was great because he was internally consistent. His conquest and his relatively enlightened rule came from the same principle: Alexander first, everybody else equally second.
squire online:
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Feb 7 2009, 1:07am
Post #156 of 183
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Alexander is part of my country's heritage. He was truly a very complex person and there have been numerous of debates about him. As about his male lovers, in fact no one knows for sure if there was one or more. There is one well known from written documents but many such documents have been lost, so historians can only guess for now. There have been discovered some new tumbs recently and our archeologists are talking about new "Valley Of the Kings". If they turn to be right and this is another massive city with temples, we may learn some exciting news about the time before and during Alexander's life.
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on January 30 on the Main board for a visit at the "Prancing pony"!
I believe
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Feb 7 2009, 2:11am
Post #157 of 183
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Yes, Hephaistion was the great love of his life. His other, concurrent, male lover was a Persian Eunuch named Bagoas--not what the Greek folks back home wanted to hear about! But the troops were crazy about the fellow. And his foremost female love, whom he made his chief wife, was Roxane, the daughter of a hill-bandit that he chose to re-style a princess of a mountain "kingdom". (Well, fortress, anyway) He took two other wives, daughters of King Darius (I'm getting senile--I can't remember their names) but Roxane had them and their children killed as soon as he died (she was always his Mum's favorite, anyway.) Not that she or her son outlived them long, the politics of the day being what they were. Oh, and he had one mistress named Barsines, who, when he found out she was in love with the court artist, bade her farewell with a generous dowry.
I'm not a history gossip, hound, honest! I've also studied his battles and such. It's just that he lead such an interesting life, in so many ways! I agree with Mel Gibson on this one (who is also an Alexander fan, surprisingly enough!) Nobody should try to condense his life down into a movie--it takes a television series, at least.
Wandering waaaaay off topic--sorry.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Feb 7 2009, 2:21am
Post #158 of 183
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It's not just that the world turns out scarier than the bowdlerized stories they've been told that trouble kids as they grow older. It's that if you work too hard at hiding things from them, they assume that you don't know just how bad it is out there! So they feel very alone with the truth, and don't know where to turn.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Feb 7 2009, 2:44am
Post #159 of 183
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Even in that he was more complicated. He was whatever his armies wanted him to be. When they wanted him to be one of the guys, he was one of the guys. When they wanted to worship him, he played god. Mostly they wanted the god-emperor, and he was more than happy to oblige. Plenty of anecdotes support both extremes in his behavior, as well as a wide range in between.
(One more thing, regarding his ruthlessness--the massacres, with only one curious exception, took place whenever he himself got wounded and fell out of the battle, leaving the men to rampage in vengeance without his leadership.)
Going back to Aragorn. If his people had wanted to make him a god-emperor, would he have obliged? If they wanted him to be one of the guys, would he have obliged? What do you think were his limits?
I can see some parallels, personally. One of the chief ways that Alexander commanded such loyalty, for instance, was that he had studied medicine under Aristotle, and so after battle, instead of collapsing into his tent for a well-earned rest, he would don a surgeon's apron and help the other medics tend the wounded. In fact, this might well have evolved into the Medieval notion that Kings have a healing touch, which Tolkien conferred onto Aragorn.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Feb 7 2009, 3:00am
Post #160 of 183
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Ah, so you are Macedonian? or Bulgarian?
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I would love to hear more about those discoveries! I heard about the tomb that might have been his father's (yes, I've heard the counter-theory that in fact it belonged to his brother, phillip Arrhidaeus, but the evidence seems overwhelmingly to support King Phillip, right down to the skull with a crushed eye-socket and the armor made for a man with one leg shorter than the other. I mean, how much proof do they need? Anyone who can cast that kind of evidence into doubt is somebody I want for a lawyer!)
Was there doubt about the role of Bagoas in Alexander's life? I thought it was pretty well documented. Perhaps some of those documents have since come into question?
Again, pulling this back to Aragorn--after thousands of years, what might people question, speculate on, or alter about his history?
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Jettorex
Lorien
Feb 7 2009, 3:37am
Post #161 of 183
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just curious
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Feb 7 2009, 4:11am
Post #162 of 183
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plus Russian, plus French, plus Mediterranean of the olive southern type  - that's what happens when too many travellers are born in one family and they get wives/husbands from different countries (not that I'm not the same)  As about the discoveries, I would like to hear more too but they stopped digging when the fall came, I believe. I try to watch the regional news as often as I can but nothing has been said lately. Besides, my relatives would have mentioned if there was something new. In general, they won't start digging again before the spring passes as these temples and tombs are in the valley of a very big river and floods happen often. It would be dangerous for both the men and the tombs to open them when the snow is melting. However, there were quite a few discovered earlier when they started speaking of the "Valley Of Kings". In late September they continued digging despite the weather forecast because their suspicions for a second big camera in one of the tombs were confirmed. It was expected to discover a huge tomb, maybe even temple. As far as I know they couldn't finish the work as the winter came early. One of the biggest discoveries was the mask of a king who is believed to be Seuthes III - son of Kotis and founder of the town of Seuthopolis. The sculptor was no one else but Lezip - the favourite sculptor of Alexander the Great. Here it is:
Amazing, isn't it? The whole valley is amazing with all its roses and quiet solitude. If they have chosen to be burried there, I would understand them.
There was another theory that the mask was representing King Teres I, father of the famous Thracian ruler Sitalkes, who expanded the Thracian kingdom into a huge empire that united all the Thracian tribes south of the Danube. For now the latter is unproven.
Unfortunately, at the end of September the chief archeologist who started the work yet in 1992 passed away. He was a very controversial person and his ways left quite a bit to be desired but he was no doubt very successful and probably there were some powers at work to help him as he discovered more than generations have before him.
On Alexander the Great and his lovers, I'll post tomorrow as it is very late here 
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on January 30 on the Main board for a visit at the "Prancing pony"!
I believe
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Feb 7 2009, 4:19am
Post #163 of 183
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See my post to Dreamdeer :) //
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Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on January 30 on the Main board for a visit at the "Prancing pony"!
I believe
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Jettorex
Lorien
Feb 7 2009, 4:24am
Post #164 of 183
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how bout the story of Alexander killing his father Phillip the Great during the weding ceremony or the taming of his Horse-whats his name- Buchephalas or that Jim Morrison
Love, Truth, Honor, Adventure
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Feb 7 2009, 4:46am
Post #165 of 183
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Gondor! Gondor! (You crossed the border.) //
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Feb. 2-8 for The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen.
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Feb 7 2009, 7:30am
Post #167 of 183
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The actual killer of King Phillip was a wronged lover. But since his wrongs had transpired years before, most historians agree that someone put him up to it. The theory that it was Alexander himself has fallen out of favor.
First, Alexander had saved Phillip's life in battle only a short time before--had he aspired to gain the throne by his father's death, it would have been the easiest thing in the world to have simply not managed to fight to his side in time to save him, and he could have had the throne without the least smack of suspicion.
Second, Alexander had recently been restored to his father's good graces after some delicate negotiations to prove to him that his mother's disgrace would not mean his own disownment. They were working together again. Phillip was doing everything in his power to reconcile the entire family to the change of wife, and assure them all that divorcing Olympias had nothing to do with them. He had also cemented his alliance with Olympias's powerful brother by marrying his daughter to him. (In much of the ancient Mediterranean, it was considered incest for a man to marry his aunt, but not for a woman to marry her uncle.)
Different historians put forward Demosthenes, the Athenian politician who hated Phillip and Alexander so passionately, or King Darius, but the most interesting theories accuse Olympias herself. She was the only one who really had anything to lose with this wedding. The timing argues for her, and she had a murderous reputation.
I do believe the story about Buchephalas--he loved that horse with a passion and rode him till the creature died of old age.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Jettorex
Lorien
Feb 7 2009, 2:05pm
Post #168 of 183
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was that Alexander and his biological mother came to be suspicious of Phillip and that they were worried that Phillip was going to oust them. Just prior to Phillips murder, Alexander said something at the wedding feast (I believe Phillips marrige to a new wife!?) and Phillip enraged drew his sword and attacked Alex but was drunk and fell to which Alexander replied (or something to the effect) "here is the man that wishes to conquer Asia but can't even cross his own dining hall". Apparantly that was the last straw and it was just a matter of who was going to kill whom first.
The story with the horse was that this huge beast nobody could tame but Alexander noticed that he would shy away from his and the trainers shadow, so Alex turned him so he could not see any shadows and then tamed him (I beleive Alexander was only 13 years old when he tamed him!).
Wow!!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Feb 7 2009, 5:59pm
Post #169 of 183
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...at the feast, but they reconciled afterwards, and Alexander was winning his way back into Phillip's graces. The offence happened, after way too much wine flowed to all parties, when the father of the bride proposed a toast in the hopes that his daughter would bear a legitimate heir, which Alexander understandably took badly. Alexander responded by hurtling a drinking cup with precise aim to bean the offending Attalus. (Later on in Alexander's story, this uncanny ability to retain perfect coordination, no matter how drunk he was, cost him still more dearly. It is not a good thing to mix accurate aim with a loss of judgment.)
Dear old Mom did not help the issue at all. Olympias was in the habit of claiming that Phillip wasn't Alexander's father. However, the skull found in the earlier-mentioned tomb alleged to be King Phillip's, shows in the surviving eye-socket the same abnormally huge eyes that portraits of Alexander display, so I think she was just being nasty in the stupidest way possible. She put it about that Alexander was the son of an Egyptian God. Rumor countered that he was the son of an Egyptian astrologer/magician who led her into a trance and then took advantage of her, teling her afterwards that she had enjoyed unusual favor from Zeus-Ammon. The fact remains that, taking into consideration the many portraits of both of them and not just the controversial skull, Alexander looked strikingly like Phillip anyway, and not the least bit Egyptian. Greek blood had not yet mingled into the families of Egypt, so Egyptians at that time were quite dark, whereas Alexander was very blonde and rosy. Which doesn't mean that Olympias wasn't messing around without progeny--it was not a happy marriage.
The thing was, Alexander needed reconcilliation with his father to re-establish his legitimacy and right to the throne, which Phillip was more than happy to give him, not wanting to risk tearing Macedonia up in a succession-war after he had spent his whole life building it up from a Grecian backwater into a superpower--and knowing his son well enough to not want him as an enemy. But because Phillip died before he could finish rehabilitating Alexander's good name, Alexander wound up having to kill off a handful of ambitious cousins in an ugly fight before he could secure his throne.
(Alexander was not someone inclined to smell treason from everybody who might have some basis for a claim to his throne, mind you. Ptolemy, one of his top generals and dearest friends, was allegedly also his illegitimate paternal brother. And he took good care of his brother Phillip Arrhidaeus, allegedly developmentally disabled, who did fine until after Alexander's death, when an ambitious woman married the poor fellow and briefly commanded an army in his name, before getting smacked down like a bug. Which is another reason why I doubt that the lavishly gold-filled tomb attributed to Phillip the King could instead be that of Phillip Arrhidaeus--he died in squalid captivity, at the hands of an upstart with no desire to glorify the poor pawn.)
The story of Bucephalos is very beautiful indeed. Alexander rode him into the east by morning so that their shadow would fall behind them, and back again to the west by afternoon. By the end of the ride the horse had come to trust him and not be so easily frightened after that.
Bucephalos might have been a huge beast by the Greek standards of the time, but the Arabian strain had not yet entered into bloodlines of the Greek horses, so he was probably not large at all by modern standards. He might, in fact, have simply been a horse among ponies. It is telling that a later account of a treacherous river-crossing said that the men had to wade up to their chests while the "horses" swam.
Are we getting away with going so completely off topic because this thread got so hot before we started nattering about Alexander the Great?
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Half-elven
Feb 7 2009, 7:08pm
Post #170 of 183
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We're talking about Aragorn, right?
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*wink*
Actually, it's interesting to compare and contrast the two. Alexander was from the "northern kingdom," so to speak, and was looked down upon by the more urban southern kingdoms. Alexander led the "western" Greeks over the "Eastern" Persians and the "Southern" Egyptians, not to mention the Indians and their oliphaunts. But there are, of course, significant differences as well.
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Feb 7 2009, 7:30pm
Post #171 of 183
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I just can't see Gilraen running around telling everyone that Aragorn was in fact the son of a Blue Wizard, for instance. On the other hand, Aragorn did have a taste for creative and unusual strategies, for which Alexander was famous.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 7 2009, 8:19pm
Post #172 of 183
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Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Feb 7 2009, 8:23pm
Post #173 of 183
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Bucephalos could have been a big one + some legends
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Bucephalos could have easily been a very big horse. His name means "Bull's Skull" - that big his head was. The horses of the ancient tribes (Slavic) that came to the Bolkans were from the East, some came from the lands of the present Russian republics, and their horses were massive strong animals able to cross huge distances and survive in very tough conditions. The tribes were busy with agriculture mainly and needed big animals for their work. However, they were also very suitable for war as they were strong and brave. When the ancient Bulgarians came from Asia, they brought their swift elegant horses which did fit their style in battle - quick and surprising. Today our horses are something between these two races - they are quite big but not so heavy as they used to be and faster.
There are many legends in my lands about Alexander - that he tamed Bucephalos when he was only 10 years old; that Aristotel gave him a book (not known which one) and a knife which Alexander always kept under his pillow to not forget knowledge should go togetehr with fame in battle; that he married Darrius`wife after conquering Persia and they ahd a son named Hercules (this is written by the ancient phylosopher Alexander - Greek); that the Gods were angry at Alexander for challenging their own power and thus decided on his death long before his time had come; that he had two horns hid under his hair and only his barbers knew about them and that`s why he killed them all (he is actually called the Two-Horn Alexander in the Koran and is said to be the Allah's messenger on Earth); that Egyptians believed he was son of a god as he brought rain at a deadly dry place once; that Danail (a sacred Persian man) had a vision in which he saw Alexander to come out of the sea as a demon with long hair followed by four monsters with iron teeth who swallowed Persia (it became true as Persia fell); that after Alexander conquered Persia 300 Amazon warriors almost won a battle against his 70 000 army and the leader of these famous female warriors desired a child from Alexander, thus he spent 13 days with her but he couldn't satisfy her needs and sent her away with lots of presents (to keep her silent); etc.
Now, on Alexander`s father: Olimpia used to say her son was a son of god. While in Macedonia it was accepted as her way to tease Filip, the truth could be that Alexander`s father was Olimpia`s lover - the Egyptian pharaon Nehtanebo II (Nehtarhabi) who, as all pharaons, was equal to any god. This would explain the belief of Egyptians that Alexander was god`s son. Being married to the not very attractive Filip who also was absent most of the time, Olimpia found a friend to suit her needs - magic and astrology. This was the Egyptian pharaon who was tempted by the same hobbies. It was believed Olimpia slept with snakes in her bed both for guarding her and for her magic. It is also believed that Nehtanebo was present at the time of Alexander`s birth in Pela, He used to go there regularly. Filip has never been sure he was the father either. His suspicions are well known and they may have been well justified. However, I agree that Alexander resembles Phillip but his features also resemble his mother's so it would be difficult to say if he inherited his nose, for example, from Phillip or from Olimpia. This type of nose is typical for today's people in these lands too.
Another legend about Alexander: his true father took him when he was born and said: `You were born earlier than you were supposed to, so your life will be famous but short. You will burn with bright flame but you will burn out quickly.`` which would mean Alexander was a premature baby.
I would recommend the CORVISIER, Jean-Nicolas biography of Phillip as a good one, I liked it. He is a very famous French professor in history and good writer. I haven't found it in English though.
As about Alexander's lovers, besides the usual theories you have already mentioned, there is one which was supported by the lack of real historical documents to comment on Alexander's love/intimate life. After all, there are only five hisrotical documnets on which we base our knowledge of Alexander and none of them was written by a person who lived at the same time as Alexander. Of course, there were such documents and we know about them but from remarks made much later in other documents. Based on the very few materials, historians started to think he didn't have much of a love life. Yes, he had some occasional affairs as he also had to marry and not once but in fact Alexander was 1. busy most of the time conquering the world and 2. it seems he had been very obssessed with his victories. Scholars say that he had developed a true mania and strongly believed in the god's power running in his veins, being victorious ever, and he simply didn't find pleasure in anything except from war.
Of all the enigmas surrounding Alexander's life, I think the biggest and most difficult to reveal is his death. I've read hundreds of pages and there is no theory that is supported well enough to be widely accepted. I still believe he was killed (poisoned) as the fights between his own generals and their successors were just waiting for his death to explode. There were of course many other people who desired his death either because of desire for personal revenge or because of political reasons.
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on January 30 on the Main board for a visit at the "Prancing pony"!
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Feb 7 2009, 8:31pm
Post #174 of 183
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Alexander the Northern Star? How does it work?
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I just can't imagine how this geography works  At the time the northern kingdoms were already known to the southern ones thus Alexander had an idea north of him there were other peoples and tribes as he knew about the Slavic tribes to the east. Besides, the southern of Macedonia kingdoms were respected by his father. Alexander was not unknown. Phillip set up the scene for his son providing 20 years of peace and strenghtening the lands. Those living south of Macedonia knew well about Phillip and of course, of his son.
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Feb 8 2009, 12:45am
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All I know is what we all know, I guess. Philipp was killed by his own bodygurad and the main suspects are Olimpia and Alexander. We won't know for sure until something new as a document or artefact, or drawing, or anything is discovered and this is very unlikely, IMHO.
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It's ridiculous not to mention that it's a crime against the folklore heritage. I'm definitely not going to read to my child some pinkish stories. Life is not pink and I want him to grow with such tales I've grown up with - true and precious for being true. 
