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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Feb 2 2009, 5:41pm
Post #26 of 183
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Do we know that Aragorn's northern ancestors didn't marry outside the tribe?
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Where does Tolkien specify more than that Aragorn, unlike anyone in Gondor, can trace his ancestry all the way back to Elendil?
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Curious
Half-elven
Feb 2 2009, 5:41pm
Post #27 of 183
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Now there's an argument I can get behind.
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I've sort of played devil's advocate here, but I originally posted a question, not a definite opinion. You've given me reasons to relax and enjoy the Appendices.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Feb 2 2009, 5:48pm
Post #28 of 183
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Princess Finduilas of Dol Amroth
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Now let the fun begin! (Tom Bombadil, ‘The Old Forest’)
Not so long ago, when there was only one movie board, the concept of a bridge-film was taken for granted, and folk were discussing what exactly would it be based on. For instance, Ainurolorin said, in one of the earliest threads in which he promoted his idea for a plot: “Most fans who want to see a bridge film at all (not including those who just want a 6 hour Hobbit) fall into one of two camps. Camp A. wishes and desires to see Gandalf's deeds and the stratagems of The Council versus The Necromancer. Camp B wants an Aragorn love/action fest.”
As I answered him there, I have absolutely no idea what most fans want to see; and I’m pretty sure my own preferences would not appeal to the marketing managers of New Line. However, let’s see what material we do have here, and whether it could make anything worth watching.
I’m thinking any such bridge film would make Bakshi’s “Best of Tolkien” mish-mash seem almost coherent.
Ecthelion II, son of Turgon, was a man of wisdom... He encouraged all men of worth from near or far to enter his service, and to those who proved trustworthy he gave rank and reward.
1. Once again, I note the whole section until the end of part iv is in quotation marks. But just think of this opening scene! Can’t you see the sergeant-major passing up and down the line, and a clean-shaven Viggo with shining shoes easing his kitbag when he think’s nobody’s looking?
I’d be more interested in why Aragorn left Ecthelion’s service and turned from the path to Kingship.
2. In the war against the Corsairs, Thorongil is said to have overthrown himself the Captain of the Havens. How many cases of duels between captains does Tolkien have? How many in LotR?
There are duels between “Captain Frodo” and “the captain of the Ringwraiths” on Weathertop and at the Ford.
There is a face-off between Gandalf and a captain-like wolf on the way down the slope of Caradhras, though Legolas is the one who kills him.
In the same fight Prince Legolas’ last arrow kills “a great wolf-chieftain”.
There is the duel in Moria between Captain Frodo and “a huge orc-chieftain” which Frodo loses, though Chieftain Aragorn cleaves his helm (and presumably his head) in two.
There is the duel of one blow between Chieftain Aragorn and an Orc captain at the eastern exit to Moria.
I suppose one could go on.
The ‘other tasks’ seem very interesting, as he last is seen facing the Mountains of Shadow. This brings to ming Aragorn’s words in ‘Strider’, about his knowledge of the Nazgul; I used to think he meant the hunt for Gollum, which in the Council of Elrond: “If one must... or tread the deadly flowers of Morgul Vale, then perils will he find”.
3. Was he going to spy on the Nazgul? Or was this his journey to the far country of Rhun?
It’s interesting that ranger Aragorn undertakes a reconnaissance of the same area ranger Faramir will be operating in and beyond. Similarly, in the end Aragorn will lead a Boromir type frontal assault against Mordor, after having controlled the palantir, something which Denethor could not do have done. The message is that of course the king would surpass the stewards.
4. I quite dislike this part about Thorongil not trusting Saruman – why should he know better than Gandalf and Elrond?
One might argue that while Gandalf and Elrond travel amongst the Wise and Leaders of Elves and Men, Thorongil traveled amongst the common people of the North and the South. Saurman obviously look pains to fool those he could use. One might imagine he was more careless with those he had no use for, those same people that Thorongil lived amongst. Basically Strider heard about Saruman kicking peasants.
Additionally Gandalf notes that in retrospect Saruman’s attitude in the White Council became more and more suspicious, but since it was so gradual nobody noticed it at the time. However, a new member coming in (such as, say, Aragorn) would be more apt to see what the others had been blind to. However, that same newbie-ness would have made Aragorn less likely to speak up, and even then less likely to be listened to.
5. Note that Denethor isn’t too trusting of Saruman either – he is merely stated to mistrust Gandalf, suspecting (truly) that Mithrandir planned to supplant him (note that bith ‘Gandalf’ and ‘Mithrandir’ are used in the same paragraph). What did Denethor think of Saruman?
Not very highly. Saruman had been given the keys of Orthanc by Steward Beren after promising to look after it (and the Orthanc Stone) for Gondor. Then the next thing you know he’s declaring independence and keeping the palantir for himself. Then like Gandalf he’s digging in the archives of Minas Tirith, and digging around Gladden Fields without telling anyone what’s up. Denethor might have even heard that Saruman wandered around in (gasp!) Fangorn! One wonders if in Denethor’s use of his palantir he overheard Saruman’s using the Orthanc Stone. All in all Denethor probably thought even less of Saruman than he did Gandalf.
6. Finduilas “withered in the guarded city, as a flower of the seaward vales set upon a barren rock”. Is the "barren rock" Minas Tirith, or a reference to Denethor himself?
I think it was caused by close proximity to The Shadow.
“The shadow in the east filled her with horror...”
The Shadow also withered Muriel Serindë and Gilraen. (And Arwen in the films.)
7. What was so wrong about Boromir not getting married until he was fourty-one?
People talk.
That was still five years younger than his father was!
His father’s wedding seems to have been a Peaceweaving marriage to cement alliances, similar to that between old Hrothgar and young Wealhtheow in Beowulf. One wonders what alliance, if any, Denethor planned to cement with Boromir. Then again, given his great love for Boromir perhaps Denethor couldn’t find a bride good enough for his favorite son.
8. Were do we see that Denethor’s reading other’s hearts moves him to scorn?
Faramir is most like him, so his heart would be the most easily read, yet that is the heart that Denethor scorns the most. Yet Boromir is most unlike him, yet he loves him the most. One might imagine self-hatred is what moves Denethor to scorn. When Denethor sees himself in another’s heart he scorns the fear, uncertainty, and pity that he sees there, not realizing or admitting that it is a mirror of his own.
Why make that assertion?
Character development.
9. The part about Faramir’s love of music is interesting. Is Tolkien trying to make him elvish?
He *is* Elvish. One would imagine if Finduilas had still been alive Legolas would have acknowledged their kinship with a bow just like he did with her younger brother Imrahil.
10. Ever since childhood, “Boromir was the helper and protector of Faramir”. Helper in what?
Military training. Leadership.
Defender from whom?
Bullies. One imagines Faramir getting regularly robbed of his lunch money and stuffed into a lot of lockers. And then there’s the worst bully of all, Denethor. Boromir probably snuck food up all those times Faramir was sent to bed without his supper. (Or do you think Faramir was made to sleep in a cupboard under the stairs?).
11. “It did not seem possible to Faramir that any one in Gondor could rival Boromir, Captain of the White Tower; and of like mind was Boromir. Yet it proved otherwise at the test”. Excuse me? What test are we talking about?
The ring.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Feb 2 2009, 5:51pm
Post #29 of 183
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Do John Noble and Viggo Mortensen look alike?
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On this reading, I noticed that Denethor "was as like to Thorongil as to one of nearest kin", a further point in support of squire's suggestion that Aragorn has "a Roman nose and a craggy face".
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Elros
Rivendell
Feb 2 2009, 6:34pm
Post #30 of 183
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it probably wouldn't irk me as much, but I would still shake my head in bewilderment. I'll give another example to show where I'm coming from. The Valar are clearly stated to be superior to the Maiar. Even within the Valar, the Aratar are superior to the others. Why? Because the other said so, that's why. Tolkien created two fictional classes of characters and fit them into his imaginary hierarchy. Does anyone question his morals about this? Not that I've ever heard. He does the exact same thing with Men. Aragorn is a fictional character, just like Manwe, so why the outcry that he is held in higher regard than say, Eomer?
All men (lowercase) are created equal, but all fictional characters are not. Learn to deal with it. Equality is a fantastic idea. Anyone who wishes to read more about the subject should put down LOTR and start reading books about Martin Luther King or Ghandi. Anyone who expects every single author who has ever lived to paint every single character is his or her stories with the same brush is unrealistic.
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Elros
Rivendell
Feb 2 2009, 6:44pm
Post #31 of 183
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needs to move into the E Street Retirement Center. 
I do agree that LOTR has some classist elements in it. I guess I just don't like it when people "accuse" Tolkien of including these elements, as if it is some moral wrong he has committed. I see a disctinction between pointing out the elements in the story and pointing the finger at Tolkien, which I don't mean to imply you did by any means. Again, perhaps I ranted too much. I've just heard way too many people talk about inappropriate it is in "today's world" to have things like that in a fictional story that has nothing to do with today's world.
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Curious
Half-elven
Feb 2 2009, 6:53pm
Post #32 of 183
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Setting aside the question of whether anyone has problems with the Valar -- I would submit that many people do have problems with them, and question whether Tolkien should have invented them -- it's not a parallel situation because the Valar don't have children. Even the Eldar rarely have children, and then they stick around forever to keep them in line. But Aragorn is dozens of generations removed from Elrond -- to call Elrond the oldest member of his race assumes that after dozens of generations the connection still means something, and perhaps means even more than the fact that Aragorn was raised by Elrond in his house as his foster son. That's a racial theory.
And no, it's not a particularly obnoxious one, and yes, I still consider LotR a masterpiece. But ignoring or defending the racism, classism, and sexism in LotR is not, I think, the best way to defend Tolkien as an author or LotR as a work of literature. I find it more intellectually honest to acknowledge that Tolkien was a man of his times, writing things that might not be considered sensitive today.
Plus, I like fantasy in part because it does reveal the preconceptions of the author, more so, perhaps, than novels set in the Primary World, let alone histories. All books to some extent reveal the author, but fantasies reveal so much more because the author makes all the choices.
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Beren IV
Gondor
Feb 2 2009, 7:20pm
Post #33 of 183
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is the belief that certain groups of people are superior, inferior, or just different from other groups of people. Fantasy races are different because they are defined to be different.
If you are uncomfortable with a fictional work that features genetically distinct and different races of people-like creatures because it implies or suggests that similar distinctions and differences may exist in real populations, then may be. But sometimes a story is just a story. It's like blaming Darwin for people's misconstruing his theory to justify their already racist behavior, or blaming Machiavelli for Stalin or Hitler.
As I said, I would find it surprising if Tolkien was not mildly racist as you put it, but I highly doubt that Tolkien meant the Elves Dúnedain having fair skin and the Orcs having dark skin to imply that fair-skinned people of European ancestry are superior to dark-skinned people of African extraction, for example.
As for Éowyn, I don't know what to make of that. There are some elements of that little story that I do find discomforting.
The paleobotanist is back!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Feb 2 2009, 8:32pm
Post #34 of 183
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I don't follow what you're trying to say about alcoholic fathers, dropping out of school, and doing drugs. Are you saying that these things are typical of some classes or races and not others? President Ronald Reagan and President Bill Clinton both had alcoholic fathers.
I think we should all look to the best of our ancestors for inspiration--I won't dispute you there. I only have a problem with the notion that fair-skinned people are the only ones with inspiring ancestors, or have some sort of edge in being good. I can forgive it in someone who didn't know any better, but there's no excuse for that way of thinking nowadays.
Tolkien makes it clear that the Noldor have more education than the other elves, not by dint of blood, but because they sailed west and studied directly under the Valar. He also makes it clear that many elves consider them morally inferior, because they then rebelled against the Valar and sailed away. But then he did not paint them all with the same brush, either. In those drafts when Beren was an elf, Luthien spoke of the unfairness of condemning him solely on the basis of being a "gnome" (Noldor.)
So far so good. But then Tolkien does, elsewhere, depict light-skinned people as superior to dark-skinned people by birthright. Not so good.
We need to be realistic, here. Tolkien's writing is what modern civil rights activists would term "primitive"--that is, it proposes the fallacy of inheritable character not out of malice, not out of a wilful disregard for all evidence to the contrary, but merely out of ignorance, out of having been written before people knew any better. It is as good as it can be under the circumstances. In his day this stuff was taught as science!
I'm not going to pretend that this sort of thing would be okay in this day and age. I am not such a rabid fan that I would say that anything Tolkien writes must automatically be good and correct. But neither do I condemn him for not knowing information to which he had no access.
I think it is perfectly reasonable for Aragorn to take pride in being Isildur's heir--and equally reasonable for Boromir to remind people that inheriting Isildur's sword does not mean he inherited Isildur's quality. Aragorn has to prove that, himself, as well he should.
I do feel cheated when I find out that Sam owes his own quality allegedly to having blondes in the family. Here I grew up taking great inspiration from having a brown-skinned hero to look up to, and it got dashed away from me--that hurt!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Feb 2 2009, 8:36pm
Post #35 of 183
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Indeed, I consider Tolkien better than his peers, because he kept struggling to see through the clouds of bad training! Faramir and Eowyn are good examples. Legolas and Gimli becoming friends after a rocky start of being biased against each other is another. The flaws still exist, but they don't define the total Tolkien. He was a complex man perpetually trying to better himself.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Feb 2 2009, 8:45pm
Post #36 of 183
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Let's agree to limit the term "Nazism" for those who feel that racism justifies genocide. Orcs don't qualify--orcs are fairy-tale monsters. If the Rohirrim had decided that they'd better wipe out the Dunlendings, then I'd worry.
(Even as a child I knew that "Dunlendings" probably meant dun-colored, brownish people. That disappointed me. But I just clung to Sam and hoped that Tolkien might have liked me anyway, if he had ever met me.)
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Feb 2 2009, 8:56pm
Post #37 of 183
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Baggins was considered a more respectable family than the Tooks, which Tolkien directly and repeatedly addressed in "The Hobbit". Bilbo later alludes to Frodo being a superior heir to Lotho, saying, "He's no Bracegirdle from Hardbottle!" implying that the former Lobelia Bracegirdle married above herself in becoming a Sackville-Baggins. Lobelia in turn tries to insult Frodo by shouting, "You're no Baggins--you're more than half a Brandybuck!" Merry and Pippin both repeatedly call Frodo "Cousin". So it's all there, and rather blatant if you ask me. You don't need to dig around in the appendices to find it.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Half-elven
Feb 2 2009, 8:56pm
Post #38 of 183
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Race is a hot-button issue today.
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If someone today published a fantasy in which a mythical race of fair-skinned people were considered inherently superior to a mythical race of dark-skinned people, it would be considered racially insensitive at the least, and perhaps thinly-disguised race-baiting at the worst. Tolkien wrote in a different time, and I would never accuse him of race baiting. I'm not even sure he can be considered racially insensitive by the standards of his time. But the importance he places on race is a jarring note in our time, when we have been sensitized to that issue.
And strictly speaking Tolkien's Secondary World is racist -- even if the people who inhabit that Secondary World do not consider racism anything more than a simple fact of life, which in their world it is. Those who defend Tolkien from accusations of racism are just as sensitive to this issue as those who accuse him -- if racism weren't a hot-button issue, no defense would be necessary.
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Feb 2 2009, 9:06pm
Post #39 of 183
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...is that people like me, who love these books, do pass them on to children. In which case, we need to also pass on adult guidance regarding the sticky parts. Things like, "Well, nobody knew in Tolkien's day that smoking was so bad for you," or "In Tolkien's day, school-books taught a lot of lies about race. He didn't know any better." In forums like this we work out what to say.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on Feb 2 2009, 9:06pm)
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Curious
Half-elven
Feb 2 2009, 9:12pm
Post #40 of 183
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to the Dunlendings, as I recall.
As for orcs, Tolkien glosses over that issue in LotR by letting the huorns take care of the orcs at Helm's Deep, and letting the orcs take care of themselves after Sauron fell. We never find out what would have happened if the orcs had surrendered. But I agree that orcs are the moral equivalent of zombies, or attacking aliens. We have to have some kind of monster to slaughter!
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Curious
Half-elven
Feb 2 2009, 9:24pm
Post #41 of 183
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It's certainly important to the hobbits -- ridiculously so
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it seemed to me, until Tolkien gave it credence in the Prologue and Appendices and other notes. I mean, was I supposed to buy into Lobelia's standards, or the Gaffer's, or even Farmer Maggot's, when they were so obviously provincial and prejudiced? Even Bilbo is indulging in some uncharacteristic insults, justified not by where Lobelia came from but by her behavior throughout his lifetime. So I didn't pay attention to the hobbits insulting each other, and I was surprised when Tolkien implied that bloodlines really did matter -- especially when I discovered, after much digging, that he thought the same about Sam.
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sador
Half-elven
Feb 2 2009, 10:07pm
Post #42 of 183
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Bilbo later alludes to Frodo being a superior heir to Lotho, saying, "He's no Bracegirdle from Hardbottle!" implying that the former Lobelia Bracegirdle married above herself in becoming a Sackville-Baggins.
I thought it was only in the movie; although I admit to loving it there, and feeling it was just right.
But as I always understood the Bagginses only claim to fame was there money and respectibility, and as the Bracegirdles seem to have been more wealthy than the Bagginses (re: the property Farmer Cotton claims Lotho inherited from his mother's family) - I never saw it as any more than stupid provincial pride, directed against someone from outside the Hobbiton-Bywater enclave.
On the other hand, seeing that Bilbo's father and cousin married a Took and a Brandybuck wife, Bilbo might have felt 'ennobled' enough to look down at Otho's marriage - for all his fancy "Sackville" name.
"We are not bound forever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory" - Aragorn
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Feb 2 2009, 10:27pm
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I have heard that line quoted so often that I actually imagined that I read it in the book! And I had not thought of PJ looking up the family trees in his research. I have only seen the movies 2-3 times, and read the books many more times than that, but of course correspond with people who have seen it surprisingly often. And my memory is getting so dusty lately...
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Darkstone
Immortal
Feb 2 2009, 11:00pm
Post #44 of 183
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"All my father's writings have appendices."
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Tolkien himself questioned the value of the appendices, with the exception of the story of Aragorn and Arwen. Most of Appendix A sets up Aragorn's story, giving us the long history of Numenor and Arnor and Gondor, and some background history for Aragorn himself. But LotR is not Aragorn's story, which is why this information did not make its way into the main text.
And why Peter Jackson excised much of Aragorn’s story from the Theatrical Version of FOTR.
And I've never been comfortable with the whole concept that Aragorn is better than everyone else because of his ancestry.
The nineteenth century concept of “race” also included culture. The Numenorean “race” itself is far from good. They grew jealous of the Elves, tyrannical towards other Men, and rebelled against the Valar. What makes Aragorn and his forebears better than everyone else is their culture. It is their culture of loyalty to the Valar and friendship with the Elves. They are the Faithful. From that viewpoint Elf-Friends Frodo and Bilbo are indeed on a par with Aragorn. On the other hand while Gandalf said the blood of Numenor ran true in Denethor, in the end the Steward renounced the Valar for the Pagan Gods of Old. He was not true to the culture of the Faithful.
Here is a telling exchange:
“Ever your desire is to appear lordly and generous as a king of old, gracious, gentle. That may well befit one of a high race, if he sits in power and peace. But in desperate hours gentleness may be repaid with death."
"So be it," said Faramir.
In certain circumstances Denethor would renounce his “blood”, his culture. Faramir would not in any circumstances.
Plus, I think the appendices distract both fans and critics from the profound themes to be found in the story proper. Many fans, like Tolkien himself, don't want the fantasy to end, and delight in speculating as we have this week about the stories behind the fictional history found in the appendices. Many go to the extent of creating their own fan fiction set in that world. We may even get a "bridge movie" set in that world. The appendices encourage fans to treat LotR more like a game than a work of literature.
A game Tolkien himself was encouraged to play:
I am not now at all sure that the tendency to treat the whole thing as a kind of vast game is really good – cert. not for me, who find that kind of thing only too fatally attractive. It is, I suppose, a tribute to the curious effect that story has, when based on very elaborate and detailed workings of geography, chronology, and language, that so many should clamour for sheer 'information', or 'lore'.
-Letter #160
For the critics, it's even worse. How can they treat Tolkien seriously when he insists on following up his story with pseudo-historical appendices that for the most part have no literary value?
We find similar techniques of pseudo-historical verisimilitude in Dracula, Frankenstein, The Screwtape Letters, and The Color Purple.
Do we find such appendices in any great work of art?
The Principles of Newspeak in George Orwell’s 1984.
The Book of Revelation, and arguably the entire New Testament of The Bible.
Also we are finding appendices more and more in great works of cinema on dvd. Perhaps Tolkien was simply ahead of his time. (An ironic thought considering his reactionary views.)
Ironically, most modern editions of great novels do indeed include similar appendices, only they are genuine in character, written by critics, historians, etc. to provide background they deem needed to understand the great work.
As we discuss the many questions raised by the appendices, I find myself struggling to say anything profound. The fictional history inspires endless speculation, but what is the point? Does it shed light on the text? Does it say something important?
Tolkien was of two minds about it:
I now wish that no appendices had been promised! For I think their appearance in truncated and compressed form will satisfy nobody: certainly not me; clearly from the (appalling mass of) letters I receive not those people who like that kind of thing – astonishingly many; while those who enjoy the book as an 'heroic romance' only, and find 'unexplained vistas' part of the literary effect, will neglect the appendices, very properly.
-Letter #160
Actually, an analysis of many hundreds of letters shows that the Appendices have played a very large part in reader's pleasure, in turning library readers into purchasers (since the Appendices are needed for reference), and in creating the demand for another book. A sharp distinction must be drawn between the tastes of reviewers ('donnish folly' and all that) and of readers!
-Letter #228
I think Tolkien’s observation that it plays “a very large part of reader’s pleasure” is the compelling argument.
One could argue there's no harm in it, but I'm not even sure of that -- as I noted, Tolkien's focus on the long line of Numenorean kings strikes me as classist and perhaps racist.
With the sudden discovery of Sam’s relation to the Fallohides simultaneous with him becoming a hero of the Shire I suspect to some extent Tolkien had tongue in cheek.
Tolkien does try to counter some of that with his account of the racial strife within Gondor, but then the northern line of kings is quite proud of its pure Numenorean blood.
Again, I’d say culture. I.e., their loyalty to the Valar and their friendship with the Elves. I’d say the former is a major reason for Gandalf’s mentoring of and friendship with Aragorn.
If the northern line marries outside of their kind -- which seems logical, considering their dwindling numbers -- Tolkien does not mention it.
That is, the Elvish and Gondorian editors do not mention it. Or at least excise any mention of it.
And the whole idea that Aragorn and Arwen reunite the two lines of the Half-elven seems elitist, borderline racist, and almost incestuous when Tolkien emphasizes Aragorn's pure blood, and when we consider that Aragorn was also Elrond's foster son.
Such intermarrying was the basis of Pax Victoria. Supposedly if all the royalty of Europe was inter-related, the thought of war would be impossible. I note her consort Prince Albert was Victoria's first cousin. His father was her mother's brother. Throughout history most royal marriages were to some degree incestuous.
The appendices do give the story a sense of depth, of history rather than fantasy. They also give Tolkien a place to put explanations which didn't fit in the text, and which otherwise he might have been tempted to put in the text. But so far, I still struggle to find something profound in the appendices, and I worry that, on balance, they diminish the story of LotR, which I do find to be profound.
I think they are the type of “false documents” that give the additional verisimilitude so that Tolkien can achieve the suspension of belief in The Green Sun. They are part of the “unexplained vistas” like “the crowns of seven kings, and the rods of the Five Wizards”. Some fantasy writers give us too much background; others not enough; I think Tolkien got it right.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Curious
Half-elven
Feb 2 2009, 11:30pm
Post #45 of 183
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And I've read the book far more than I've seen the movie, and take no part in movie discussions. But I think Bilbo's comment does come from the movie.
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Beren IV
Gondor
Feb 3 2009, 12:13am
Post #46 of 183
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Sam is still a brown-skinned hero.
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Sam is decidedly lower class, and everything he does, including his heroics, he does in a decidedly lower class way. So he has noble blood in his ancestry. Well, I'm going to run a little thought experiment here:
Consider Númenor. Elros, its king, is a direct blood descendent of a whole bunch of heroes of the First Age worthy of myth, not even just legend. How many people are there in Númenor, or how many people can it support? A fair number - we are to presume that it is a paradise, but it's not infinite by any means.
So, Elros marries, and let's say he has two kids (I don't recall the geneology well enough to verify this, but let's take it for the sake of argument). One of these two children becomes the next king. Each of them marries and has two kids. Now that's four. Each of them marries and has two kids. Eight. Sixteen. Thirty-two. In twenty generations, Elros will have a million descendants, assuming no inbreeding. This is probably pretty close to the total population the island could support, depending on its size (CT made an educated guess, but it's still somewhat up for grabs). In thirty generations, Elros will have a billion descendants - this is impossible, of course, but what this really means is that the descendants of Elros are marrying each-other. It's hardly incest to marry your twentieth cousin, or even your tenth.
The point is, by the fall of Númenor, everybody in Arda with Dúnedain ancestors is a direct descendent of Thingol and Melian. They all have royal blood!
The paleobotanist is back!
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Elros
Rivendell
Feb 3 2009, 1:57am
Post #47 of 183
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I don't follow what you're trying to say about alcoholic fathers, dropping out of school, and doing drugs. Are you saying that these things are typical of some classes or races and not others? President Ronald Reagan and President Bill Clinton both had alcoholic fathers. I was trying to convey that it's alright for heroes in a story to come from a noble background, such as Aragorn. I don't see why people have problems with this. The Numenoreans were the greatest civilization of Men to have lived in Tokien's stories. He says so. Aragorn descends from these people, so he is portrayed as such.
I can forgive it in someone who didn't know any better, but there's no excuse for that way of thinking nowadays. Tolkien didn't write the book nowadays. As I've explained to Curious, I don't deny these things happen in LOTR, I just don't see the point in attacking Tolkien personally because of it, which is something I think we agree on from your other comments.
Tolkien makes it clear that the Noldor have more education than the other elves, not by dint of blood, but because they sailed west and studied directly under the Valar. He also makes it clear that many elves consider them morally inferior, because they then rebelled against the Valar and sailed away. The Edain had more education than other Men because they crossed the Blue Mountains in the First Age and learned from the Eldar, who studied directly under the Valar. Even as the Noldor are portrayed as greater than the Sindar, Tolkien gives plenty of examples of their imperfection. Tolkien does the same thing with the Numenoreans.
So far so good. But then Tolkien does, elsewhere, depict light-skinned people as superior to dark-skinned people by birthright. Not so good. Agreed. I also think Tolkien establishes far more important reasons as to why Numenoreans are superior to other Middle Earth Men than skin color, but the skin color thing can't totally be ignored. As a teacher and a soon to be parent, I see this as an excellent teaching moment. Those who don't learn from history will be doomed to repeat it.
In the real world, broad generalizations are racist, even when positive. In a fictional story, we don't have time to meet every single citizen, so we have to take the author's word. If Umbar was a real city, I would be certain that there were individual citizens of higher quality than Minas Tirith and vice versa. Since it's not, I'm going to go with what the author tells me.
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Feb 3 2009, 1:59am
Post #48 of 183
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Your perspective of "race" actually denoting "culture" reflects much better on the story!
(And as for the cousin-marrying royalty of Europe, when working-class folk do that they call us inbred trailer-trash.)
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Feb 3 2009, 2:01am
Post #49 of 183
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That's an interesting perspective! //
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Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Feb 3 2009, 2:09am
Post #50 of 183
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The phrase "Drunk as a lord" comes to mind...
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...so I don't see noble birth as automatically ennobling.
Nor would I insist that everyone of my own class is "Salt of the earth." Every community has its Curufin and its Finrod, its Ted Sandyman and Sam Gamgee, its Lotho and Frodo. On that I think we can agree.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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