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Annael
Immortal
Jan 14 2009, 6:14pm
Post #126 of 206
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I dislike Rowling's statement because it forces things/thoughts/questions
And you think that's a bad thing?
Maybe we're not talking about different things, we just have different values. I was raised to think and question, and I am grateful for it.
Often people attempt to live their lives backwards: they try to have more things, or more money, in order to do more of what they want so they will be happier. The way it actually works is the reverse. You must first be who you really are, then do what you love to do, in order to have what you want.-- Margaret Young
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NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
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Jan 14 2009, 6:29pm
Post #127 of 206
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because the relationship between Dumbledore and Grindelwald was highly relevant to Book 7, and if she had revealed it earlier it would have spoiled the ending. Revealing that Dumbledore was gay without the accompanying information that he had been involved with Grindelwald would have been self-serving, and more in line with the observation that she deliberately altered his character to fit with current trends. So she couldn't reveal one part of his character without revealing the whole story, and revealing the whole story until after book 7 was released would have spoiled her plot.
I also think that Rowling became hypersensitive to revealing anything as she reached the end of the series. It's quite possible she could have told everyone that Dumbledore was gay earlier in the series and it would not have caused her readers to figure out book 7. But she genuinely thought that she had to keep it secret, so she chose to reveal it when she did.
I do believe that Rowling chose to tell children about Dumbledore at the time she did to make a point. I think her point was that gay people aren't that different, and her readers could get to know and love Dumbledore without knowing his preferences for men. Being gay should not change the readers' feelings for Dumbledore.
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
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entmaiden
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Jan 14 2009, 6:33pm
Post #129 of 206
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does not end childhood. Children of heterosexual parents know that their parents are in a relationship and that doesn't end their childhood.
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Jan 14 2009, 6:37pm
Post #130 of 206
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is the bad not the thinking/questioning. I don't know why and how you decided I wasn't raised to question things. All I said is I was let to ask when I was ready to. Meaning, no one/nothing forced in my mind things I would haven't understood. And that's why she didn't write it in the books. All is very clear. If she was convinced it's OK, she would have written it since her character was apparently insisting on being gay. But she didn't.
By the way what does questioning things has to do with the subject here? Yes, in the beginning we were questioning gandalf's sexuality but for the last day or two are we questioning anything? Dumbledore's sexuality is not questioned as it was clearly stated. If we are talking about kids questioning the world around, then I would stick to the good old tales which have proven to be far more helping in growing up than Harry Potter.
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Bright new in the New Year - January 15 on the Main board
I believe
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entmaiden
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Jan 14 2009, 6:38pm
Post #131 of 206
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Gay relationships are not just about sex. Children are faced with sexual relationships every day - every married couple is in a sexual relationship (at least most of them  ). But children don't think about the sexual part of it - they understand that married couples, or heterosexial couples who are dating are together because they love each other. There's no difference with gay relationships.
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Jan 14 2009, 6:42pm
Post #132 of 206
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why she never wrote it, even in book 7. Do you understand what I'm saying? A writer writes about characters. He/she doesn't save things for interviews only. Anyways, I know why she didn't write it down in series marketed toward children, no matter if they are 8 or 14 years old. And I think everyone knows it.
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Bright new in the New Year - January 15 on the Main board
I believe
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entmaiden
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Jan 14 2009, 6:52pm
Post #133 of 206
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For me, I suspected Dumbledore was gay when I read book 7, and it wasn't that imporant to the story, although it did make his past more poignant, The story was about Harry, not Dumbledore.
It's possible the Rowling felt the same way. She has been asked about her characters a lot and given us a lot of information in interviews that wasn't in the books (Dean's parents, Percy's wife, Ginny's profession after she graduated, for example). Dumbledore's preferences were just part of the list.
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Jan 14 2009, 6:56pm
Post #134 of 206
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Arwen and Aragorn's relationship...
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is very clear, I think. The book is not with me to post quotes but there are very clear signs of their relationship. I believe it was right at the beginning of the Fellowship, Rivendell as far as I can remember now. In fact, when I think of it now, I don't know even one person who was surprised they were a couple or at least no one has told me so. And also, we are not good samples - you, me. We are not children and our time for finding out about sex or gay people, or anything similar has past (I assume). We, as it was discussed above, live in a world in which sex is a very big word. Everything is or has to be somehow related to sex or sex appeal. Respectively, we look for signs of sex everywhere, even if it's subconscious. I would have probably wondered about Dumbledore/Grindelwald's relationship too if I didn't know what Rowling said before that. But my mind is not the best example of childlike thinking (or even teen thinking), unfortunately.
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Bright new in the New Year - January 15 on the Main board
I believe
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Ataahua
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Jan 14 2009, 7:00pm
Post #135 of 206
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In fact, when I think of it now, I don't know even one person who was surprised they were a couple or at least no one has told me so.
Her arrival to Gondor and marriage to Aragorn came completely out of the blue to me, and I wondered how on earth these two had got together. But then I also believed that Gandalf was dead at the Bridge of Khazad-dum: His return in Fangorn completely spun me about.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jan 14 2009, 7:01pm
Post #136 of 206
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I was raised on a farm so I knew early on about how sex worked. And because of the occasional barnyard animal who was confused about his/her own gender (yes, it does happen) I even knew about homosexuality.
However, it took moving to the big city and listening to the other kids on the junior high playground to learn how truly dirty and degrading sex was, and how absolutely terrible and demeaning homosexuality was. A real eye-opener for this poor dumb country boy.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Jan 14 2009, 7:01pm
Post #137 of 206
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So, it wasn't important for the story...
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but was important outside the story? Well, I don't buy it. Everything is more marketing than creativity from my point of view. Of course, you can further disagree, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Bright new in the New Year - January 15 on the Main board
I believe
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Jan 14 2009, 7:03pm
Post #138 of 206
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Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Bright new in the New Year - January 15 on the Main board
I believe
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
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Jan 14 2009, 7:06pm
Post #139 of 206
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the first time through. I also missed the hints between Aragorn and Arwen and was surprised when they married.
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jan 14 2009, 7:10pm
Post #140 of 206
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But then again, how many first time readers didn't catch Arwen and Aragorn's relationship until Tolkien spelled it out for them at the coronation?
Towards the end I was wanting to kick Aragorn in the keister for ignoring Eowyn. Then this Arwen person showed up out nowhere and married him! If ROTK hadn't had an index I would have sworn that this was the first mention of her in the entire trilogy.
BTW, I think Jackson did a very good job keeping Arwen in the audience's collective mind. And thanks to him (and Liv Tyler) I finally don't want to give Aragorn a swift kick to the back of his pants.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jan 14 2009, 7:23pm
Post #141 of 206
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Plus by that time after all the other "deaths" I kept expecting Boromir to show up alive and well. Why was he the only member of the Fellowship who stayed dead?
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Jettorex
Lorien
Jan 14 2009, 7:23pm
Post #142 of 206
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"But children don't think about the sexual part of it- "
But they do, and thats my point. her statement leads directly to the type of discussions that i witnessed and gave an example of in my previous post. Whether or not someone thinks it is OK for very young children to have these types of talks about sex is up for debate i suppose. I am not sure it is-not at such a young age anyway.
Love, Truth, Honor, Adventure
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
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Jan 14 2009, 7:38pm
Post #143 of 206
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giggle about heterosexual relationships, what's the problem? Why is that any different from giggling about homosexual relationships? It's nearly impossible for prevent children from learning about sex, but our reaction to what they learn will help them understand better.
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
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Jettorex
Lorien
Jan 14 2009, 7:57pm
Post #144 of 206
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....with gigling about sex, hetero or otherwise. But the age at which children are talking about it. of course its impossible to prevent them from learning about it, but do we need to even bring it up for discussion at such an early age, thats all.
Love, Truth, Honor, Adventure
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Deni
Rivendell
Jan 14 2009, 8:02pm
Post #145 of 206
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Cool..I could go in a little spanish-club next year on my school...
but I´m afraid I´m to busy to learn another language
I´m sorry..I just thought you were spanish because you told something  about the spanish language here on TORn ,you know
Deni
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
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Jan 14 2009, 8:07pm
Post #146 of 206
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sex. All she said was that Dumbledore was gay and he was in love with Grindelwald. No sex.
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
(This post was edited by entmaiden on Jan 14 2009, 8:07pm)
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Jettorex
Lorien
Jan 14 2009, 9:28pm
Post #148 of 206
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But by saying that he is gay, whether he had sex or not, is not the point. it leads young children to talk about between themselves"what is Gay" which led to physical description.
Love, Truth, Honor, Adventure
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor
Jan 14 2009, 9:32pm
Post #149 of 206
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I think it would be very difficult to use the word 'gay' and not have to go there with the explanation.
As a child, my understanding was:
1) Mommies & daddies are two people who don't look, dress, or act like each other...and had a wedding and live in the same home (unless they fight too much).
2) Aunt So-and-so & What'sHisName are "friends" or they "like each other".
3) One of Daddy's friends likes to play "dress-up" sometimes.
4) " [He] doesn't like ladies."
I didn't need the kind of psycho-social commentary adults today seem compelled to make.
I didn't need to know what kind of relationships people had, or why they did what they did, just who they were. I didn't need anything beyond those simple explanations. I had no reason to ask questions.
Words like 'cross-dresser' got my attention later, and did lead to a more adult explanation than "likes to play 'dress-up''.
And some adult male not liking ladies was just the same thing to me as little boys not liking little girls...until I heard a word I didn't understand. 'Gay' (or less pleasant terms) implies something more than "friends" and "doesn't like [opposite gender]", but mostly because adults can't always separate the emotional companionship from the physical attraction in their own minds enough to keep the sexual element out of the definition they give to children. Kids pick up on the fact that there's something more to it, and if the speaker seems to have an attitude---positive or negative---about it. At least, that's what I've observed.
Semantics?
*whew!* I'm glad that I was allowed to mature a bit longer than many of today's children before hearing all the dirty details of life.
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entmaiden
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Jan 14 2009, 9:32pm
Post #150 of 206
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Rowling is responsible for that?
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Is it her fault that ignorant people consider gay to be the equivalent of sex? Using that logic, I can understand why some people think the books promote witchcraft, but she's not responsible for that thinking either. Both premises are equally false.
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
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