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Tolkien Forever
Gondor
Jan 13 2009, 11:38pm
Post #101 of 206
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The Tolkien Calendar from Feb 1981 (I know, I'm dating myself).
A very scantily clad (and buxom) Luthien dancing before Beren......
I always thought 'No wonder he stood there in a trance all winter.' 
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Magpie
Immortal
Jan 13 2009, 11:58pm
Post #102 of 206
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I'm quietly nodding along with you Ufthak
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I did a marathon online read of Deathy Hallows with a very close friend. It was a wonderful experience. Afterwards, when the news of Dumbledore's sexuality became public, we had to face differing reactions between the two of us. She was greatly troubled by this and said, "I don't know how that information will play out in the years to come and I'm thinking of the impact of sharing the story with the likes of (the grandkids). They won't have a clue about the challenges of sexuality when they first read or hear it and I'd like kids like them to be a bit more grounded in their lives before they deal with all the issues adults deal with."
My response was, "Well... I'm not sure why someone's sexuality... that's not really addressed within the story... has to be a subject to discuss with any young person too young to ask on their own. If they're asking, it's time to address it. We assume Molly and Arthur are having sex. Do we feel the need to discuss it when reading Harry Potter?"
We then went on to have a more prolonged discussion that was civil and respectful. I'm not sure how much my thinking altered hers because it hasn't been brought up again. She said, "Homosexuality is a subject that I am uncomfortable with, possibly because it is so polarized. The middle area is quiet...It seems that most often it is brought up as a lightning rod for attention to one's cause. The pro and con side both have their flaunters. There aren't many, in my mind, like Ian, who seem to find the middle road."
I responded, "Well, I would suggest there are tons who find the middle road. You just don't hear them because they are quietly living out their lives. South Minneapolis is very progressive in a social/political way. So people are comfortable being open and I am part of a smaller community where it's even more acceptable than in the larger context of the city itself. But I would guess most of these people (of the gay friends and acquaintances of mine that I had just described to her) go to work, live out their lives and never mention their sexuality to casual acquaintances. Whether they do or not, they are not ardent in their demeanor... they do not flaunt anything... they are not contentious... they are just like you and me. And that's what a lot of people don't get or don't want to see."
I kind of wish we didn't use the word 'sex' for all the things it gets attached too. We use the word 'sex' to identify gender. That is, what sex are you, 'female/male'? Gender works as well as sex here, doesn't it? The same with 'sexual preference'. Bonding with a partner is not just about 'sex'. When we encounter heterosexual bonding: girlfriend/boyfriend... husband/wife.. we're not going right the bedroom in our heads. We are thinking about how this pair feels about each other in an emotional way. We can do the same thing with homosexual love. The gay partners I know care for each other in the same emotional way as my husband and I do for each other. I wanted my kids to see that growing up. It was never about the SEX. It was about the LOVE. The character of the people.
Identifying Dumbledore as gay is not about sex at all. Not anymore than identifying Molly and Arthur as straight. If we value the love that Molly and Arthur feel for each other than we can value it in a gay relationship.
2009 Tolkien Computer Monitor Calendars
LOTR soundtrack website : FOTR Lyrics Update, Oct 2008
magpie avatar gallery ~ Torn Image Posting Guide
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Tolkien Forever
Gondor
Jan 14 2009, 1:16am
Post #104 of 206
(6827 views)
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January 1981?
'The Battle of Sudden Flame'?
Lovely Dragon.......
Great picture, but a flying dragon before Ancalagon the Black?
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a.s.
Valinor
Jan 14 2009, 1:30am
Post #105 of 206
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who is that man and why is he wearing my living room drapes? //
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"an seileachan"
Some say once you're gone, you're gone forever, and some say you're gonna come back.
Some say you'll rest in the arms of the Savior, if sinful ways you lack.
Some say that they're coming back in a garden: bunch of carrots and little sweet peas.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.
Iris DeMent
Call Her Emily
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Annael
Immortal
Jan 14 2009, 1:58am
Post #106 of 206
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one comment, not entirely on the subject
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but I would hardly call the last four books "children's books." Rowling seemed to assume that her readers had grown up just as Harry & his friends had. The story gets progressively darker and more "adult" with each volume. Harry is a helpless witness to the murder of people he loves over and over from "Goblet" on, he's tortured repeatedly, beaten up, treated as a pariah (even by his closest friend at one point), driven into running for his life, and finally forced into . . . well, read the last book if you want to know the last extremity he's forced to. Why the boy didn't end up with post-traumatic stress syndrome I do not know. Not my idea of "children's books."
Often people attempt to live their lives backwards: they try to have more things, or more money, in order to do more of what they want so they will be happier. The way it actually works is the reverse. You must first be who you really are, then do what you love to do, in order to have what you want.-- Margaret Young
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NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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weaver
Half-elven
Jan 14 2009, 2:02am
Post #107 of 206
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Weaver
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Jan 14 2009, 2:16am
Post #108 of 206
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On occasion, you'll see a language other than English being used for a couple of posts, as a couple of TORnfolk chat in their native tongue - and now that Guillermo's at the helm of The Hobbit, there's been more Spanish!
These boards do give you a lot of practice in using English; and you (and PL) do "speak" (write!) it very well, which is fortunate, weil mein Deutsch is sehr schrecklich! 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Jan 14 2009, 7:06am
Post #109 of 206
(6813 views)
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I beg to differ, dear - your German is very good!! Particularly as you don't get to practice it so much - that makes it more difficult, IMHO.
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Deni
Rivendell
Jan 14 2009, 3:00pm
Post #110 of 206
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yes!-my word speak was absolutely deliberate..
no.. it means talk ,right?
so,you´re spanish,aren´t you^^...cool- your german looks great!
deni
(This post was edited by Deni on Jan 14 2009, 3:04pm)
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Jettorex
Lorien
Jan 14 2009, 3:34pm
Post #111 of 206
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....and understand everything you say here.
But food for thought, I know from direct experience, that since Rowling said that Dumbledore was gay-children have had the following (or something similar) discusion:
"Did you know Dumbledore was gay? "
"What's gay?"
"Hee Hee. well its when..."
I will leave the rest up to your imagination and whether anyone still think it was good idea for her to do it(whatever her intention). I am sure this type of conversation has happened many more times between many children.
Love, Truth, Honor, Adventure
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Jan 14 2009, 3:44pm
Post #112 of 206
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I have a son and no matter how much everyone talks about understanding and tollerance, and although I have nothing against anyone's sexuality and I have gay friends, I still don't find Rowling (or anyone else's for that matter) statement placed and thought well. I'd definitely prefer if my son grew up first and then decided for himself what exactly he feels and towards whom. And all my concerns are related to something I see happening around me - being gay because it's cool. Have you seen this? In my home country (South Europe) this is very popular. Every third teenager boy is gay because it's cool, it's trendy, not because they realize their feelings and even less because they were born with this. It would have been funny if it wasn't so sad. I may be old fashioned, and I probably am, but I'm not at all fascinated by such trends. If and when their decisions are mature - I'm OK with that just like I'm OK with McKellen's feelings towards anyone, no matter what gender. But when a children's author tries to ride the wave, no, I'm not OK at all.
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Bright new in the New Year - January 15 on the Main board
I believe
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
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Jan 14 2009, 4:03pm
Post #113 of 206
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created her character Dumbledore to be gay because it is currently trendy in some parts of the world. I have heard many authors speak about writing character-driven novels and a common theme appears in that the characters "speak" to the author - they develop in the author's imagination without conscious effort. Rowling has said she always thought of Dumbledore as gay, just as she always thought of her main character as a boy. She didn't consciously invent Harry as a boy - he developed in her imagination that way.
Rowling worked on her novels for almost 10 years before they were published, so any current trends had no impact on how she developed the story.
I think acceptance of gender preferences is an evolution, just as accepting people of colour is evolving. In the United States, it was illegal just 30 years ago for people of different races to marry, and now it is legal in every state. I hope to see a similar evolution of acceptance toward gay relationships.
Do you want your son to grow up without knowledge of heterosexual relationships in the same way he is unaware of gay relationships? If so, then you probably objected to Mr. and Mrs. Weasley having a loving relationship that was featured so prominently.
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
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Jan 14 2009, 4:07pm
Post #114 of 206
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If they're laughing about Dumbledore's gender preference, then they probably learned from someone that those type of relationships are humorous. I don't think Dumbledore's relationship with a man is going to change those type of reactions overnight. It will be a long process and people's reactions will evolve. But I'm encouraged that we are taking the first steps toward acceptance of all types of adult relationships.
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 14 2009, 4:23pm
Post #115 of 206
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I'm English-speaking American, but I'm trying to pick up a bit of Spanish in order to figure out some of the responses to Guillermo!
And I did like your speak/write dilemma: it is strange to say, on a message board, "It's good to see you", when we mean "read you!"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Annael
Immortal
Jan 14 2009, 4:35pm
Post #116 of 206
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this is something we had an animated discussion on at my school last week
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a parent's desire to preserve their children's innocence as long as possible vs. how impossible that actually is. The reality of the world will intrude no matter what steps you take to shield them from that. Even if you tightly control what they can see on television and computers, things will happen, other children will say things. I first heard the "facts of life" in the schoolyard at age 8 from another child, clearly one with older brothers, who gleefully described the mechanics of sex quite graphically to a ring of fascinated listeners.
It's one of the realities of life that childhood ends and it ends sooner than many of us wish. Mine ended abruptly when I was 11. But I suspect this is only a problem for those the industrialized West, where many factors work together to delude us into thinking that we can remain children as long as we want.
Often people attempt to live their lives backwards: they try to have more things, or more money, in order to do more of what they want so they will be happier. The way it actually works is the reverse. You must first be who you really are, then do what you love to do, in order to have what you want.-- Margaret Young
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
(This post was edited by Annael on Jan 14 2009, 4:41pm)
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Jettorex
Lorien
Jan 14 2009, 4:43pm
Post #117 of 206
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was they were gigling because they were talking about "sex" in general not just particularily about a gay relationship. My point was to show the direct effect (and actual conversations)that her remark had on her young readers and that it prompts them to talk not just neccessarily about gay relationships but about sex at a possible very early, (perhaps too early) age.
I am all for "taking the first steps toward acceptance of all types of adult relationships", but just perhaps at not such an early age.
Love, Truth, Honor, Adventure
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Jan 14 2009, 4:43pm
Post #118 of 206
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I've always thought that was one of the best things about Europe: it's easier to travel to a different country and practice languages among native speakers! 
Hmm...have you had any problems with the languages, when you've travelled?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Jan 14 2009, 4:46pm
Post #119 of 206
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Whether you think I'm right or not, this is my vision towards Rowling's statement. And the trend is not from now, it's from more than 15 years (as long as I remember, it may have been longer). And it's not only in one or two countries. As about how my son will be raised - the same way I was, quite traditional. And no, I didn't have any idea about homosexuality which hasn't done any harm to my cultural growth and it hasn't stopped me from having gay friends. I built and gained my understanding when I was able to individually realize what it all means. I didn't need and I didn't have any influence from outside, be it parental or anyone else's. My questions were answered when I was asking. And I was asking when I felt curious. And I felt curious when I had better understanding of everyone around me. If my son asks when he is 8 years old, I will answer but not the same way I would answer if he asks when he is 15 years old (I doubt they ask when they are 15, I'm just giving an example).
I hope tollerance can work both ways - I have the right to disapprove Rowling's attitude and decision to announce this at a later point. Being a writer myself, I can say that characters always speak to the author but it's not common to tell readers what characters spoke after the books are already published. It's just something I wouldn't trust. If she was so convinced Dumbledore has always been gay, why didn't she write it down? I know why and it has nothing to do with tollerance. The other way around. But it would have been the honest way, thus risking to not get it published or to get it hardly edited.
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Bright new in the New Year - January 15 on the Main board
I believe
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Jan 14 2009, 4:56pm
Post #120 of 206
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There is a difference between raising barriers...
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and letting the river flow in its own pace. I don't know if it's the West or anything related to location that matters in preserving childhood but I believe more in atmosphere in the family. And being here, on TORN, proves to me that many people have saved the children inside although they may not think so. I also believe that we can remain children for as long as we wish. It has nothing to do with knowledge of sex or gay, or any kind of relationships. It has to do with seeing Pooh the bear in the woods or trusting Alice that rabbits have watches and important dealings, or believing in the Christmas spirit (I mean Dikkens here), or in Elves and hobbits, etc. Childhood ends when our eyes are not open to everything anymore. When curiosity is replaced with knowledge (or at least we think so).
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Bright new in the New Year - January 15 on the Main board
I believe
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Annael
Immortal
Jan 14 2009, 5:15pm
Post #121 of 206
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I think we're talking about different things
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It's definitely possible to preserve a childlike wonder (my niece gets on a soapbox about the difference between "childish" and "childlike") all one's life. But that has nothing to do with avoiding the realities of life for as long as possible, as I can attest.
Our discussion was provoked by an article about the Hopi Indians who have a ritual where they deliberately show their children that the masked kachinas who appear at certain rituals and whom the children have been raised to believe are spirits are, in fact, people they know. Rather like finding out Santa is really daddy, only more powerful. The point is that children, because they are still capable of "make-believe," are better able to deal with this disillusionment in a way that will allow them to keep believing in the religion. A teenager or young adult, on the other hand, is more likely to reject the religion altogether. (My ex-husband was 16 when he clued into some of the contradictions in his parents' religion; he left the church forever in that moment and despises all religion now.)
I read a book called "Legacy of the Heart" by Wayne Muller some years ago. He's a minister and psychologist who noticed that people who have had a difficult childhood often tend to be more spiritual, more reflective, and more creative than people who were protected from difficulties. Also, they are much more empathetic towards others. Having to face the realities of life early makes a child ponder the meaning of life and ask the big questions, which isn't all bad.
Often people attempt to live their lives backwards: they try to have more things, or more money, in order to do more of what they want so they will be happier. The way it actually works is the reverse. You must first be who you really are, then do what you love to do, in order to have what you want.-- Margaret Young
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
(This post was edited by Annael on Jan 14 2009, 5:16pm)
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Jettorex
Lorien
Jan 14 2009, 5:22pm
Post #122 of 206
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..children will always hear and learn things from other children(and other sources) that we might not want them to. But should we condone(and even encourage) "childhood" ending at earlier and earlier ages?
Love, Truth, Honor, Adventure
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Jan 14 2009, 5:25pm
Post #123 of 206
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We are definitely talking about different things
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To get back to where it all started, I dislike Rowling's statement because it forces things/thoughts/questions. I would rather prefer if she had stated it in the very beginning or even betetr, if she had written it. Now, it sounds to me like riding the wave of a trendy, indeed, behaviour. As about the rest, I can't agree that creativity depends on the type of childhood but I may be wrong as I'm not a psychologist. To me, difficult childhood more often steals from the child's soul than has any benefits in the future but this is based only on my personal observations. And I deliberately mentioned Dikkens - Santa being daddy is an illusion I would never expose my son to because I find it unnecessary and it could be disappointing too. But Christmas being a source for love, sharing, giving, etc. as described in Christmas Carol - this I still believe in.
By the way, I was 14 when I decided my family's religion will be my own too. Until then I had doubts. So, there are different ways to grow up.
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Bright new in the New Year - January 15 on the Main board
I believe
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Jan 14 2009, 5:40pm
Post #125 of 206
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I really don't think these two can be compared
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Tolkien did include the text and it is part of the books - that means it depends on the readers to read it or not. Rowling didn't even imply it anywhere. She simply stated it after she was not only published (why didn't she state it after the first book was published?) but after she was a well known and successful author. That's pretty clear to me.
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Bright new in the New Year - January 15 on the Main board
I believe
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