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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Main:
Gandalf's sexuality? McKellen's comments

_V_
Lorien

Jan 8 2009, 3:37am

Views: 1275
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Gandalf's sexuality? McKellen's comments	Can't Post

in the recent TORN news item, Ian McKellen says that:

"Though, of course, there is confusion because Rowling has announced that Dumbledore's gay, hasn't she? So maybe that's the confusion. Of course, whether Gandalf's gay is another matter. His wife was never mentioned and he's 7000 years old. He must have had some experience of sex."

I think McKellen was probably just joking around (the same way they do about Pipe-weed....guys, Tolkien flat out said its "tobacco". There is no debate)

Nonetheless, I'd like to briefly articulate this: given that Gandalf is not actually a "Man", but essentially an Angel that has descended into human form (a Maia spirit, servant of the Valar ( Archangels) and the Secret Fire of Eru (God). As an immortal Angel, I do not really think he has any sexual preference at all: I don't think he's "gay" or "straight" and I think it would be odd even to mention Gandalf being romantically involved with a woman.

Then again, for the sake of argument, I think about how the Ainur are defined by Tolkien (Valar are the greater Ainur, there are 14 of them, and the Maiar are the lesser Ainur, of whom there are dozens or hundreds, possibly) --> Tolkien says that the Ainur have no physical form inherently but can take up a physical form if they want to, like an Angel appearing to humans in the Bible, etc. But according to Tolkien, the Ainur still have an inherent "gender"; even without physical bodies, they still have a "male temperament" or a "female temperment". He said to think of it like how a person is still "male" even if they take their clothes off, and in the Ainur's case the clothes are their physical appearance.

Now, some Ainur actually exist in apparently romantic relationships with other Ainur; Manwe is the mate of Varda, Aule the mate of Yavanna. Some Ainur choose to live alone, as is the case with Ulmo. Ainur cannot reproduce. As angelic spirits, we might not even be intended to think of them in such terms as a "race" and its possible that while some are "paired" perhaps romantically, "sex" does not exist among them. I don't even think the term "romantic relationships" might even be able to be applied to such "pairings" (though Varda spurned Melkor...)

****Then again, Melian WAS able to reproduce with Thingol to produce Luthien....so.....yeah.....well that was with an actual Elf, not with another "angelic spirit". Only Eru can make more Ainur spirits, I think.

****Now, McKellen is right in his figure that Gandalf is "7,000 years old" but with a bit of a nuance: firstly, the "Years of the Sun" are 7,000 years, but the "Ages of the Stars" went on for several millenia before that, maybe 17,000 to 27,000 years (depending on what numbering system from Tolkien's drafts you use). Still, Galadriel is "over 7,000" because we know she was born AFTER the Elves came to Valinor but BEFORE the Noldor left, immediately before the first rising of the Sun.

The point though, is that there may be a difference between "Gandalf the Wizard" and "Olorin the Maia spirit". The Maia spirit, "Olorin" was created at the dawn of time by Eru (God) before the creation of the world itself, as an angelic spirit (thus as a "child of the mind of God" Radagast can still be his "cousin", in the sense of "kinsman", etc....)

Anyway, "Olorin" became a wizard 2,000 years ago, Third Age ~1,000, becoming "Gandalf"

before this, "Olorin" was just a spirit; he could apear in visions as a human but it's like Clarence from It's a Wonderful Life or something. Actually, Tolkien said he most often went without physical body, diving into the hearts of people to fill them with wisdom and courage, etc.

But as "Gandalf" he was not only "visible", by grant of the Valar, the Wizards were embued with actual, physical bodies of aged Men (as a sign of their Humility)

So I think that in terms of "sexuality", "Olorin the angelic spirit who possesses a male temperament and is often disembodied" and "Gandalf, the angel who has descended into human form and lived as a Man for 2,000 years" may be facing two different sets of circumstances.

I really don't think Olorin the spirit actually had a "sexuality" of any kind; I don't know if we can think of the Ainur in such concepts. They do have apparently "intellectual" "pairings", but Olorin is said to be alone.

As for "Gandalf, the Maia descended into human form, experiencing life's sensations through a human body"......he *may* have had a "sexuality" given that he was subject to human sensations, but I kind of doubt it. I don't even think of him as having relationships with women; I think of him as almost like a holy priest of some religion, removed from Earthly things. Then again he's in part based on the pagan Odin, who was married. But no, he's really a catholic "angel" descended to human form.

Did Gandalf "love"? Of course he loved; he loves all things in Middle-earth and wants to help all that is Good. But I think, basically, that it was a...well, "Grandfatherly" kind of love.

***Further, moreso than any other wizard Gandalf was a "wanderer" so I doubt he could maintain stable relationships for long with anyone.

****moreover, he may have seen any such attachment as being too "bound" to one thing and distracting from his mission (like Radagast the Fool! and his birds).....then again, Gandalf still managed to be quite "attached" to the Baggins family, and he did wander alot but it didn't stop him from visiting often and maintaining a friendship for decades....so maybe his wandering wouldn't get in the way nor would he consider it major impediment to romantic relationship.

****but this is all conjecture. Seriously, I personally always thought it was wrong to even think of Gandalf having relationships with women. I think it would be equally wrong to think of him having relationships with men as to having them with women; he's a grandfatherly figure and I don't know if, even in a human body, he thought in such terms. I mean I think of him as this holy warrior, celibate priest kind of figure (Tolkien probably would have meant "priest" in the catholic sense, I use it hear in generic reference to many world religions).

but it's a conundrum. on the one hand you think of him as above such "earthly things" and at the same time, he sits around smoking tobacco with hobbits in the Shire, or telling Bilbo to make sure that he gets his preferred meal of chicken and pickles (or was it tomatoes? no....pretty sure it was pickles)

So he's not just an "angel that happens to be appearing to someone but has no tangible form" (a la Nicholas Cage in "City of Angels") he has a physical body and physical quirks.

Nonetheless, I always just saw him as an asexual, grandfatherly character. I'd think it equaly wrong to say "maybe Gandalf was a homosexual" as much as "haha, maybe Gandalf had torrid love affairds with *women* all across Middle-earth".....I really don't think it's in his character to be either. He's an angel.

Dumbledore, on the other hand, is as much a mortal man as Harry Potter; like Harry he started out as a boy in our world then finds our more about the magical Hogwarts world that overlaps with it. But there is no reason not for him to be gay, structurally within the plot.

For that matter, given that he never married, I wouldn't really react to them saying that virtually any other character in the story is gay; Legolas never married: could he be a homosexual? Possibly, in the sense that I see no direct evidence against it. Or even Beorn or Thorin or someone else who never married.

But Gandalf and the wizards are basically "Angels" and in that sense, I think that it might be wrong to even think of them as "straight" if you follow my meaning.

This is confusing and I have not reached a definitive answer; at the least, I don't think Tolkien deliberated on this.

Thus, I really don't know,.

However, I will say that even before McKellen was cast in the live-action films, when just meeting other book fans in the mid-1990's, I'd actually react very strongly to those that said "haha, Gandalf was probably a lady's man in his youth", as becaues he was really an "Angelic spirit" I didn't think he would behave in such terms.

"Pleased to meet you, hope you guessed my name, but what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game"

Formerly known on TORN as "Draug the Unspeakably Violent"

Subject	User	Time
Gandalf's sexuality? McKellen's comments	_V_	Jan 8 2009, 3:37am
remeniscent of the "Doctor Who" controversy	_V_	Jan 8 2009, 3:48am
I find it amusing	Ataahua	Jan 8 2009, 4:07am
I think there are 2 main points here:	Compa_Mighty	Jan 8 2009, 9:01pm
As for Dumbledore,	Ataahua	Jan 8 2009, 9:25pm
mmm ok...	Compa_Mighty	Jan 8 2009, 9:34pm
Whoops,	Ataahua	Jan 8 2009, 9:42pm
I agree	entmaiden	Jan 9 2009, 1:07am
Don't worry!	Compa_Mighty	Jan 9 2009, 1:24am
Gandalf?	Tolkien Forever	Jan 8 2009, 4:12am
'Hmms' again	Ufthak	Jan 11 2009, 11:05pm
In A Fantasy World.....	Tolkien Forever	Jan 13 2009, 5:31pm
So...	Ufthak	Jan 13 2009, 7:02pm
Having Read Harry Potter	Tolkien Forever	Jan 13 2009, 8:27pm
Well	Arwen's daughter	Jan 13 2009, 8:38pm
I agree.	Aunt Dora Baggins	Jan 15 2009, 9:45pm
Actually, Dumbledore's previous	entmaiden	Jan 13 2009, 8:39pm
There's a discussion here	Ataahua	Jan 13 2009, 8:50pm
Yes - better in Off Topic	entmaiden	Jan 13 2009, 9:06pm
Having Not	Tolkien Forever	Jan 13 2009, 8:54pm
Actually	Rivendweller	Jan 19 2009, 12:53am
With regard to being 'exposed to sex'	Ufthak	Jan 13 2009, 11:26pm
I'm quietly nodding along with you Ufthak	Magpie	Jan 13 2009, 11:58pm
I totally agree...	Jettorex	Jan 14 2009, 3:34pm
I'm with you	simplyaven	Jan 14 2009, 3:44pm
I don't think Rowling	entmaiden	Jan 14 2009, 4:03pm
I shared my opinion	simplyaven	Jan 14 2009, 4:46pm
Oh, for crying out loud	Kyriel	Jan 15 2009, 12:00am
I'm giving you a break	simplyaven	Jan 15 2009, 2:23am
Hm	Peredhil lover	Jan 15 2009, 7:23am
There is no bad advertising	simplyaven	Jan 15 2009, 2:26pm
Advertising	Peredhil lover	Jan 15 2009, 4:05pm
this is something we had an animated discussion on at my school last week	Annael	Jan 14 2009, 4:35pm
There is a difference between raising barriers...	simplyaven	Jan 14 2009, 4:56pm
I think we're talking about different things	Annael	Jan 14 2009, 5:15pm
We are definitely talking about different things	simplyaven	Jan 14 2009, 5:25pm
Didn't Tolkien do the same thing	Arwen's daughter	Jan 14 2009, 5:35pm
I really don't think these two can be compared	simplyaven	Jan 14 2009, 5:40pm
I think she delayed	entmaiden	Jan 14 2009, 6:29pm
It still doesn't explain...	simplyaven	Jan 14 2009, 6:42pm
I don't agree	entmaiden	Jan 14 2009, 6:52pm
So, it wasn't important for the story...	simplyaven	Jan 14 2009, 7:01pm
Well	Arwen's daughter	Jan 14 2009, 6:33pm
Arwen and Aragorn's relationship...	simplyaven	Jan 14 2009, 6:56pm
Me, for what it's worth.	Ataahua	Jan 14 2009, 7:00pm
Well, now I know one :) //	simplyaven	Jan 14 2009, 7:03pm
Two, in fact ;)	Peredhil lover	Jan 15 2009, 7:32am
Make that three.	Silverlode	Jan 15 2009, 11:59am
I have a friend who swears Aragorn married Eowyn in the book.	Aunt Dora Baggins	Jan 15 2009, 10:27pm
I missed Eowyn as Dernhelm	entmaiden	Jan 14 2009, 7:06pm
Me too.	Darkstone	Jan 14 2009, 7:23pm
Turns out,	Alass�a Eruvande	Jan 15 2009, 1:52pm
Me!	Darkstone	Jan 14 2009, 7:10pm
hmm	Annael	Jan 14 2009, 6:14pm
The word "force" ...	simplyaven	Jan 14 2009, 6:37pm
I accept your correction	Annael	Jan 14 2009, 10:18pm
The thing about homophobes is	Ufthak	Jan 14 2009, 11:30pm
lol //	Magpie	Jan 14 2009, 11:39pm
You're right	simplyaven	Jan 15 2009, 2:27am
of course...	Jettorex	Jan 14 2009, 5:22pm
Knowing about relationships	entmaiden	Jan 14 2009, 6:33pm
Well	Darkstone	Jan 14 2009, 7:01pm
Children learn from others.	entmaiden	Jan 14 2009, 4:07pm
my impression..	Jettorex	Jan 14 2009, 4:43pm
As Ufthak said earlier	entmaiden	Jan 14 2009, 6:38pm
But they do...	Jettorex	Jan 14 2009, 7:23pm
So if they do	entmaiden	Jan 14 2009, 7:38pm
It has nothing to do...	Jettorex	Jan 14 2009, 7:57pm
Rowling didn't bring up	entmaiden	Jan 14 2009, 8:07pm
OK...	Jettorex	Jan 14 2009, 9:28pm
Rowling is responsible for that?	entmaiden	Jan 14 2009, 9:32pm
May be if you point another ...	simplyaven	Jan 14 2009, 9:50pm
Entmaiden, respectively...	Jettorex	Jan 14 2009, 9:59pm
You're still missing the point	Kyriel	Jan 15 2009, 12:15am
I understand that...	Jettorex	Jan 15 2009, 2:52pm
so I wonder	Annael	Jan 15 2009, 3:28pm
as I said before...	Jettorex	Jan 15 2009, 3:32pm
Unlikely that children under 8 are reading Harry Potter	entmaiden	Jan 15 2009, 3:47pm
Just want to say	Peredhil lover	Jan 15 2009, 4:11pm
Thanks!	entmaiden	Jan 15 2009, 4:14pm
That's what I love about TORn	Peredhil lover	Jan 15 2009, 4:29pm
I'm flashing back seven years	Aunt Dora Baggins	Jan 15 2009, 10:35pm
That's what I am wondering often	Peredhil lover	Jan 16 2009, 6:25am
I just had a thought	Annael	Jan 15 2009, 8:47pm
I would probably start to wonder	Peredhil lover	Jan 15 2009, 9:08pm
I am just going...	Jettorex	Jan 15 2009, 3:37pm
as someone who used to work an elementary school lunch room...	Magpie	Jan 14 2009, 8:38pm
I understand...	Jettorex	Jan 14 2009, 9:38pm
well... there's just different forms of communication	Magpie	Jan 14 2009, 11:38pm
What you speak of here Magpie	silneldor	Jan 15 2009, 1:03am
Thanks Magpie	Jettorex	Jan 15 2009, 2:45pm
Yep	Eowyn of Penns Woods	Jan 14 2009, 9:32pm
Beautifully said, Magpie.	Aunt Dora Baggins	Jan 15 2009, 9:51pm
one comment, not entirely on the subject	Annael	Jan 14 2009, 1:58am
You're right	Peredhil lover	Jan 15 2009, 4:23pm
Thoughts	Earl	Jan 8 2009, 7:58am
I tend to agree	sador	Jan 8 2009, 10:16am
he could have had relations with Elves, solving the "daughter" problem	a.s.	Jan 8 2009, 11:18am
Good point.	Ataahua	Jan 8 2009, 9:28pm
I'm inclined to agree with you on that count...	Earl	Jan 9 2009, 6:24am
Interesting post	Jazmine	Jan 8 2009, 12:27pm
o i know its possible	weathertop	Jan 8 2009, 6:50pm
Half-Elves are not a distinct race	_V_	Jan 8 2009, 7:48pm
I beleive concerning the Istari...	Jettorex	Jan 8 2009, 2:58pm
I agree with you V...	Child of Manwe	Jan 8 2009, 3:18pm
He got tired of such questions, IMHO.	simplyaven	Jan 8 2009, 8:47pm
Yet Saruman clearly had sex	squire	Jan 8 2009, 11:37pm
Wow, what a post	Glaurung63	Jan 9 2009, 12:44am
The Last Temptation of Ol�rin? //	N.E. Brigand	Jan 9 2009, 5:17am
Why not?	Darkstone	Jan 9 2009, 10:16pm
I don't know about "hunky"	squire	Jan 10 2009, 12:08am
you certainly have a way with photos...	weaver	Jan 10 2009, 12:50am
Ew.	Ataahua	Jan 10 2009, 1:02am
grabs bottle of bleach, dumps directly into eyes /	Kyriel	Jan 10 2009, 1:03am
Gandalf is not gay....	LordotRings93	Jan 10 2009, 1:32am
BTW,	Ataahua	Jan 10 2009, 2:24am
Umm	Ufthak	Jan 10 2009, 11:38am
tsk tsk wags finger	Earl	Jan 10 2009, 12:09pm
mods up	Kyriel	Jan 10 2009, 2:45pm
thumbs up	Ufthak	Jan 10 2009, 5:25pm
Don't disappear!	Aunt Dora Baggins	Jan 15 2009, 10:11pm
nice turn of phrase there, Kyriel! Thanks, BTW. //	a.s.	Jan 10 2009, 8:03pm
And an excellent thought, well said //	Starling	Jan 10 2009, 8:13pm
Lots of people in LOTR are gay.	Darkstone	Jan 14 2009, 9:40pm
Of course Merry is gay. I don't need a	a.s.	Jan 14 2009, 9:51pm
If I knew how to do those little smiley animations	Aunt Dora Baggins	Jan 16 2009, 5:09pm
Oh gosh	Starling	Jan 15 2009, 8:36am
It gets worse...	dernwyn	Jan 15 2009, 12:01pm
ROTFL	Peredhil lover	Jan 15 2009, 12:22pm
hee!	Aunt Dora Baggins	Jan 15 2009, 10:28pm
Darkstone, you are a treasure :-D //	Aunt Dora Baggins	Jan 15 2009, 10:21pm
LOL	Peredhil lover	Jan 10 2009, 8:26am
runs into the sunset screaming MY EYES... MY EYES //	Earl	Jan 10 2009, 12:23pm
Re: hunky	Farawyn	Jan 10 2009, 6:30pm
silneldor has competition, I see!!!	a.s.	Jan 10 2009, 8:38pm
It's one of the outfits	Starling	Jan 10 2009, 9:14pm
it's for REAL??? Oh, I am so hopelessly out of touch.	a.s.	Jan 10 2009, 10:54pm
You must be thrilled	Starling	Jan 11 2009, 1:08am
"thrilled" would not be the word I would use.	a.s.	Jan 11 2009, 6:52pm
Choose one...	squire	Jan 11 2009, 7:14pm
I am shocked that aghast is a synonym for nauseated!	a.s.	Jan 11 2009, 10:12pm
That's where my mind went too :-D //	Aunt Dora Baggins	Jan 15 2009, 9:15pm
wheres..	Jettorex	Jan 13 2009, 4:25pm
.	NorskGudTor	Jan 10 2009, 4:00am
Yep...	Ataahua	Jan 10 2009, 4:53am
I like topics like this.	Farawyn	Jan 10 2009, 6:41pm
your opinion is welcome too	ElanorTX	Jan 12 2009, 7:34pm
......... hehe	NorskGudTor	Jan 12 2009, 8:39pm
!	squire	Jan 12 2009, 11:18pm
Here's what it looks like	Magpie	Jan 12 2009, 11:27pm
Explained	NorskGudTor	Jan 12 2009, 11:32pm
Thank you! //	N.E. Brigand	Jan 12 2009, 11:39pm
It is a bit different here	Magpie	Jan 12 2009, 11:40pm
Well done!	Alass�a Eruvande	Jan 12 2009, 11:42pm
Hi NorskGudTor	Jettorex	Jan 13 2009, 4:23pm
Hey!! Welcome to Valinor!!	a.s.	Jan 10 2009, 11:38pm
I think we might be looking at this the wrong way	Milady	Jan 13 2009, 1:13pm
If you want to publicise your dad	sador	Jan 13 2009, 1:37pm
Interesting	Milady	Jan 13 2009, 6:36pm
A! O! Yeah, Luthien, BAby!	squire	Jan 13 2009, 11:24pm
Good gravy...	Ufthak	Jan 13 2009, 11:26pm
Reminds Me of.....	Tolkien Forever	Jan 13 2009, 11:38pm
Dead on!	squire	Jan 14 2009, 12:41am
How about......	Tolkien Forever	Jan 14 2009, 1:16am
who is that man and why is he wearing my living room drapes? //	a.s.	Jan 14 2009, 1:30am
and where are his pants?//	weaver	Jan 14 2009, 2:02am
"Cigareets and whiskey and wild, wild women,	Aunt Dora Baggins	Jan 15 2009, 9:19pm
Are we talking about Tolkien's take on Gandalf, or our own extrapolations?	Kyriel	Jan 10 2009, 1:02am
Somehow this reminds me of classic Seinfeld	Starling	Jan 10 2009, 8:00pm
Gandalf; Frodo and Sam; and now...Tintin, too!	a.s.	Jan 10 2009, 8:10pm
I think it was just a joke!	Deni	Jan 10 2009, 8:29pm
sth	squire	Jan 10 2009, 9:04pm
it's sad to need Urban Dictionary to communicate!	a.s.	Jan 10 2009, 10:50pm
not wujal?	squire	Jan 10 2009, 11:22pm
uh. Yeah. What you said. LOL. //	a.s.	Jan 10 2009, 11:27pm
Maybe I can translate...	batik	Jan 10 2009, 10:53pm
What does 'sth' mean?	Magpie	Jan 10 2009, 9:07pm
I have just realized that Deni's profile indicates	a.s.	Jan 10 2009, 11:36pm
oh XD"	Deni	Jan 11 2009, 7:27pm
Don't worry about it Deni.	Ataahua	Jan 11 2009, 8:28pm
ROFL!	Morthoron	Jan 11 2009, 9:11pm
Your use of English was not an issue for me	Magpie	Jan 11 2009, 9:56pm
your English is fine, please don't apologize	a.s.	Jan 11 2009, 10:05pm
I've learned English	Peredhil lover	Jan 12 2009, 6:23am
You are doing great!	grammaboodawg	Jan 12 2009, 1:11am
Don't worry, Deni	Peredhil lover	Jan 12 2009, 6:28am
all of you are so kind^^	Deni	Jan 12 2009, 4:50pm
slaps head	Peredhil lover	Jan 13 2009, 6:36am
yes,you�re right^^	Deni	Jan 13 2009, 7:39pm
That's true!	dernwyn	Jan 14 2009, 2:16am
Nicht schrecklich!	Peredhil lover	Jan 14 2009, 7:06am
Danke!	dernwyn	Jan 14 2009, 4:43pm
Well	Peredhil lover	Jan 15 2009, 7:52am
thanks^^	Deni	Jan 14 2009, 3:00pm
Heh - no...	dernwyn	Jan 14 2009, 4:23pm
HAHA I just thought...	Deni	Jan 14 2009, 8:02pm
LOL!	dernwyn	Jan 14 2009, 11:33pm
It's the avatars sometimes...	Laeras�a	Jan 15 2009, 5:19am
That's quite alright!	Ataahua	Jan 15 2009, 6:12am
lol	Peredhil lover	Jan 15 2009, 11:09am
Exactly! People are always passing comment on my facial features. //	Starling	Jan 15 2009, 8:46am
Aww, but you've got a very cute nose!	dernwyn	Jan 15 2009, 11:34am
LOL!Poor thing^^	Deni	Jan 17 2009, 4:32pm
Well	Darkstone	Jan 14 2009, 10:23pm
Gaydalf?	Morthoron	Jan 11 2009, 4:26pm
Gynedalf? /	Darkstone	Jan 13 2009, 8:42pm

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