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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
"Cultures" in LOTR, "The Hobbit" and Appendix movies?
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_V_
Lorien


Jan 1 2009, 9:03am

Post #1 of 31 (1982 views)
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"Cultures" in LOTR, "The Hobbit" and Appendix movies? Can't Post

I want to devote more time to this later in a series of threads, but I want a general summation here:

Peter Jackson & Co and the geniuses at Weta Workshop created fully-realized "Cultures" for Middle-earth

the great thing, also, about Middle-earth is that the cultures in it aren't entirely "alien" ones (such as the Na'vi in James Cameron's upcoming "Avatar" movie series, which he has spent nearly a decade developing cultural details and a language for). Middle-earth cultures are sort of....I use the term loosely, "fairy tale" versions of what MIGHT have been early European cultures in a "lost historical age"; Tolkien writes with the conceit that Middle-earth "actually happened" as "another lost Icelandic saga" that he, Tolkien the Scholar, found on rotting parchment in an obscure forgotten corner of a library...much as he actually translated Beowulf from ONE surviving copy. It "actually happened" 6,000 years ago. But they're sort of a....philologist's twist on several anachronistically combined cultures, to make ones that somehow "fit".

Let's look at the major cultures appearing in the Lord of the Rings film trilogy, all of whom appear just as I imagine them in the books, because they followed Tolkien's cultural hints so closely:

*Gondor - an odd mix of various "classical" and "high medieval" cultures, as befitting the most advanced civilization of Men in the world, skilled shipbuilders/stonebuilders, but above all, Gondor is actually kind of based on Byzantium; they're not as strong as Elendil's united Kingdom or as strong as Rome, but each is still strong in its own right and the last "great bulwark of the West", holding back the tide of invaders, "fighting the long defeat". In the films, this is reflected in the civilian costumes of the Gondorian women (I seriously hope one of the "did you ever notice...?" costuming reports eventually covers the Gondorian noblewomen costumes from the Coronation scene that are visible for mere seconds), and the use of domes in the architecture of Minas Tirith. Linguistically, as Gondor is the "most advanced' race of Men, they speak with Received Pronunciation British accents, to show how they speak the most refined and "proper" Westron.

*Rohan - the Rohirrim are the "horse-lords", and they're not as advanced as Gondor. Indeed, they're basically "Barbarian allies" that Gondor ceded land to in exchange for a more powerful buffer state on a weak flank; essentially, they're like the Germanic tribes that became foederati when Rome was falling. At worst, the Visigoths eventually turned on Rome. But the Franks were actually kind of loyal to Rome (the Franks didn't conquer Romans, so much as the Visigoths and Burgundians conquered Roman lands, then the Franks conquered these other barbarians). Nonetheless, the Rohirrim are clearly "Anglo-Saxons".....I mean, they speak Old English! Eowyn's funeral dirge lifts lines from Beowulf I think. **It's "Beowulf with Horses"! I mean, Edoras = Heorot!........anyway, it's the old explanation that Tolkien hates the French language and how post-Conquest it "destroyed" the English language of Old English, so he kind of thought that the Normans won Hastings because of their cavalry (this is a popular myth, btw) and that if the Anglo-Saxons had retained a "rider culture" they'd have survived. Linguistically, when not speaking Old English, the Rohirrim actors speak with a Rhotic accent ("Rhotic" is not synonymous with "American"; North American English is one of several dialects that are "Rhotic" so more than one person has described Rohirrim as "sounding American", but this ignores that southwestern England itself from Salisbury to Cornwall is also Rhotic)

*Dunlendings - just as the Celts were rivals with the Anglo-Saxons for England, so were the Dunlendings angry that the Rohirrim got the province of Calenardhon which became Rohan; they're just primitve hill people though and not explored in detail, though there is supposed to be some stylistic link between then and the Dead Men of Dunharrow, to whom they are related.

*Hobbits - GDT doesn't need to spend TOO much time re-inventing the Hobbits because we've already seen them realized. Hobbits are basically an anachronistic mix of....putting 19th century rustic English Midlands bucolic farmland into the medieval era. How will Del Toro get around the mentions of umbrellas and alarm clocks? But they're Midlanders from Tolkien's youth. Linguistically, they speak with Midlands accents.

*Bree - the Men (and Hobbits?) of Bree in the films are basically treated as a slightly scary version of 19th century rustic England, but they're a trading town; the books make it clear that Butterbur is actually nice and the Prancing Pony a happy place, and the movies do convey Butterbur as nice, but they're trying to get across that this is scary for the Hobbits because its a trading town on a crossroads and they've never been away from home before. So lots of long buildings and walls sinking into the ground at angles almost in Tim Burton-fashion. Essentially a scary extension of the design motiff for the Shire. GDT *might* revisit Bree, which would be seen in happier times.

*Isengard and the Uruk-hai - Isengard, thematically, represents the Industrial Revolution and the twisting of good ideals towards evil: Saruman's dialogue in the book FOTR that "our goals aren't changing, only our methods" I think is lifted straight out of several fascist regimes. but you have to remember that this culminates in the "Scouring of the Shire" and ultimately, Tolkien's life experience growing up in Edwardian England, leaving for the Great War and being traumatized at the death of "chivalric" or honourable warfare in the face of brute mechanization, and returning home to find that the Industrial Revolution had passed through his childhood Gloucestershire and ruined everything. Thus, it's all "metal and wheels". The Weta designs reflect this in how Uruk-hai armor actually looks mass-produced, in that its uniform but also kind of cheap (it's kind of blocky) and their swords are simple meat-cleaver designs to give an overall "cookie-cutter" motif. That is, their armor and weapons look as uniform as if you make them with the same cookie-cutters. The design of "Isengard and the Tower of Orthanc" is different, though; that's Numenorean architecture. I'm talking about "Isengard and the Uruk-hai" here. And they're basically genetic experiements/alchemy? to hybridize Orcs with Men to create Saruman's Uruk-hai and half-Orcs ( PJ....there's no such thing as "crossing Orcs with Goblin-men"....that's like saying "crossing Orcs with Orc-men") So think a brutish, nearly Tim Burton-esque satire of the inner gears of a Victorian era Industrial Revolution factory, with lots of gears and sharp edges. The movies pretty much nailed it.

As Orcs "debase whatever local language" rather than really develop their own, all Orcs and Uruk-hai were basically given Cockney accents in the films. Be thankful that they did not unleash the horrors of Orcs communicating in Rhyming Mockney slang (Sticky'd been out for a duck, and that Gubber had snitched a parcel sausage-side and gone goose over stumps frog-side!) Then again....Tolkien says that "Black Speach"...on which SOME of Orcish is based....sounds like Slavic languages, which to his ears as a professor of Anglo-Saxon, sounded very harsh and alien. So he thought it sounded "ugly" and had Slavic elements (then again, he also considered French to be an "ugly" language...this was a linguistic complaint).

*Mordor - basically Dante's "Inferno" (without the blocks of ice, and the rivers of excrement remain thankfully "off screen"....). Mordor-Orcs in FOTR fight basically like wild baboons; they're animals that skitter about. After the prologue, we see further subdivisions, but for the "Mordor-Orcs" in ROTK they tried to instill a sense that "they're wild like animals and they're monsters, but they're sentient and still part of an "army" so they should at least have some uniform look". So the Mordor-Orcs in Gothmog's army in ROTK all have at least the same basic shoulder pauldrons, etc. though their helmets and weapons vary wildly.

But what always caught my attention is the different Orc-breeds; of course, the"Moria-Orcs" were designed to have crab-like armor and look like they lived underground too long, but close to what the Prologue FOTR orcs were. But there's this one scene in ROTK-book where they hint that Orcs are bred for specific tasks, and we just see the warrior-Orcs mostly. Tracker-Orcs also exist, called "Snufflers". I remember this one scene from ROTK when Frodo and Sam are in Mordor, and they hide when a pair of Orcs come along, and one is a soldier Uruk, but the other is a Snuffler-Orc: obviously bred to track, it's got a huge single nostril and overdeveloped sensory organs, while the rest of its body is small and a bit spindly. So maybe there are radically different breeds, depending on their assigned tasks? This doesn't cover "Orc-woman" of course. well, Tolkien does say "Orcs breed after the manner of Elves and Men" (it's the Uruk-hai who are bred using alchemy and stuff), and I'd bring up the Dwarf-women argument of that "simply because you don't see them travelling around doesn't mean they don't exist back in their home town". But I mean like "Warg-Riders" or the "Bodyguard of Bolg", etc. there might be specialized ones.

*Trolls - do Trolls even have a "culture"? Or are they barely sentient monsters, bred in mockery of Ents as the Orcs were of Elves? Well, Weta did a good job of showing how in ROTK, the different Trolls with different tools and helmets have different functions, etc. But how to reconcile talking Trolls?

*Dwarves - we barely see the Dwarves in LOTR beyond one individual, Gimli, and we see the *ruins* of Moria, but they're an entire culture with 13 characters and entire armies in The Hobbit. What Weta came up with were basically 2 things: first, Elves prefer mobility and speed over armor, but Dwarves sacrifice mobility for raw power. A swing of a Dwarf-axe can easily cleave an Orc in half. They wear full, heavy armor, which can absorb a lot of damage and negate a lot of arrows. Basically, Dwarves are smaller than Men but they're proportionately stronger (as well as just plain stronger); so they're stocky and thus don't have a wide reach but they can bring a lot of force to bear when in close; those the axe is the ideal weapon for them, and they can do serious damage with it. Arguably, they're really great at urban-combat (underground fighting in mines combat), close-quarters, gritty battles, where Elves can't make use of their extra mobility. Anyway, the other big idea Weta did was that the Elves value nature, and the humans make statues of people (Gondor) or horses (Rohan). The Orcs' "architecture" is grunt and utilitarian. Ugly and just there to serve a function. Dwarves don't really find beauty in "nature" but they do find beauty in "works of the hand". Thus, Weta devoleped an "architecture" for Moria which I'd described as positively "Art Deco"; bold, clean lines, emphasizing the beauty in simply meaking clean geometric shapes on a large scale. They've sort of got a "Crystal" motif etched into things (several diamond shapes overlapping). But yeah, overall, "art deco"; clean lines and geometric shapes not found in nature, but emphaizing "science" (for lack of a better term). Culturally....Tolkien directly stated on more than one occassion that they're actually sort of the Middle-earth version of Medieval Jews. Linguistically, Khuzdul is a semitic language made in imitation of Hebrew, and they are a culture that is "part of" Middle-earth's collective but they're exiles in a diaspora from their homeland (Moria/Erebor) living in other cultures in which they are at the same time familiar and foreign, retaining their own internal language and customs. In the films, JRD said he gave Gimli a....I think it was "Scottish Lowlands" accent? because he said it gave it an "old" archaic feeling. However, I think Tolkien directly said at some point that because Dwarves speak Khuzdul internally with other Dwarves, they've got a bit of an odd "Khuzdul-accent" which sounds alien to Indo-European ears. So I'd actually think they should sound....not laying it on too heavy, mind you, but with a slight hebraic twinge. Further, why not run with this, and given the inner workings of Erebory a "Temple of Solomon" type motiff?

*Rangers of the North - last remnants of Arnor, the North-kingdom. From the LOTR films we know them only from Aragorn. They are basically the proud but dwindling descendants of the few Dunedain of Arnor who survived. Unlike their cousins in Gondor to the south, they didn't intermarry with local peoples as much, so while they live in the wild mostly and there's only a handful (barely 30 go to the War of the Ring to fight for Aragorn in ROTK-book)....they're like NAVY SEALS or Army Rangers; special forces commandos; one Ranger is worth several dozen regular soldiers. GDT will really have to play around with this in the Appendix movie, but I think the idea is that they dress simply and functionally to be Rangers, but they keep one or two bits of intricate jewelry on them (a really well designed broach or ring or something) that speaks of hidden refinement. Which conversely means that UNLIKE Gondor, they never got decadent. But they're all really well educated and use Rivendel as their home base and occasionally re-supply at Bree.

*Ents - not so much a "culture" as "creatures"; JRD ingeniously voiced Treebeard by speaking when he *inhales* instead of exhales, to make it sound...just "different"

*The Sundering of the Elves - the LOTR films basically showed us two main groups of Elves: Rivendell-Elves and Lothlorien-Elves. The only Mirkwood-Elf shown in detail is Legolas, but he's just one individual.

Basically, there are three remaining groups of Elves in Middle-earth: High-Elves, Gray Elves, and Wood-Elves (in that order). There are so few High-Elves that they basically just rule over populations of lesser Elves. Rivendell isn't actually so much a "country" as a "hidden manor house in a valley". Anyway, the four remaining "Elf lands" are actually Rivendell, Lindon (the Gray Havens) on the coast (under Cirdan the Shipwright), Lothlorien, and the Woodland Ream of Mirkwood (under Thranduil). We only see the Gray Havens fleetingly (unfortunately). Lothlorien sort of has an "ethereal/sylvan" feeling to it, befitting that its actually a group of Silvan Elves (Wood-elves) who thousands of years ago took Galadriel as their Queen, allowing her to rule over them with her awesome power. Rivendell is again, more the "manor/library-mountainretreat" of Elrond. And it IS populated mostly by High-Elves, who dress a bit more overtly and proudly. Aren't they supposed to differentiate Rivendell and Lorien Elves using eye color or something?

Anyway, what Weta did was to show how the Elves are so "in touch with nature", they actually ***incorporated a lot of Oriental designs, Asian designs, in everything from architecture to weapons design to clothing. Not so much as to make it blatantly "Asian", but to make it "in touch with nature" and Asian designs already strive to do that (what with Taoism and all).

***Side note: when I mentioned to Del Toro "and Weta used Oriental influenced for the Elves", his eyes positively *lit up* and gleamed as if he wanted to say something about ideas he has, but unfortunately "the sniper from the studio with a gun pointed at my head" prevented him from revealing spoiler information

But what of the "Elves of the Woodland Realm", who will figure prominently into "The Hobbit"? Well my take on that is that.....they're basically the "poor country cousins" of the Lothlorien Elves. They're not nearly as advanced because they don't have Galadriel, who is herself a leading High Elf (Noldor). Their ruling class is a small group of Gray Elves (Sindar) escaping the Fall of Doriath who fled east and tried to re-establish something like Doriath in a population of Wood Elves who took them as lords. Thus Legolas apparently *considers* himself to be a "Wood Elf", though by blood as the grandson of Oropher he's actually a Gray Elf.

The result is that they are far, far removed from the almost demigod-like flamboyance of the Second Age Elves we see in the Prologue of FOTR, or even of the flashy designs seen in Rivendell.

To give Lothlorien an "ethereal" quality, they actually run the camera footage at half speed....with overdubbed lines by the actors run at normal speed. Wood Elves should have no such quality; they're "magical" but in a pro-active kind of way; they're not nearly as "magical" as the High Elves or even the Gray Elves, but then again....Rivendell and Lothlorien have already conceded that the time of the Elves is passing. The Wood Elves, while lagging far behind, have a bit more "vitality" left, so what little magic they have they're using more actively.

Compare how Haldir seems kind of "ethereal" but Legolas is very "active" even though he NEVER uses "actual magic"; by all means he's "Woodcrafty" (I imagine trying to escape through woods filled with camouflaged Silvan archers would be a death trap; you'd be dead five times over before you even knew what hit you)

But yeah: compare how Legolas is in no way "Magical" like Elrond, Galadriel, or even Haldir, but he's a lot more "active" (in terms of possessing Olympic-level athletic abilities that skirt *close* to the impossible without being totally impossible.

I hate to draw comparisons but.....take the scenes from Hellboy II where Prince Nuada is fighting; he doesn't necessarily do things that are "defying the laws of physics" so much as "he's mastered martial arts better than a human could"....I keep thinking of the openning move from the throne room fight where he grabs a guard by the hand then swings around the guard's arm, head over heels, to attack him from behind. He can't "walk through walls" or something, but Legolas has an *inhumanly high level of dexterity*

The problem of course is that Bilbo *wanders around the Elven-king's halls* for a long time, so we'd actually see elements of....actual civilian "home life" and such; Elf-children? we'd have to mine the depths of the Histories of Middle-earth series to get accurate details on that.

In the films, this is funny: Elves originally were going to speak with a lilt of sorts, rolling their R's and L's like celtic, but the idea was scrapped in post, so all of the ADR stuff just made them speak very crisp and normal, given that Elves are master linguists who could easily command Westron.

*Beorn - Beorn actually always struck me as a sad, tragic figure: his people are Men, but they're Skin-changers that can magically change their form, and he can become a bear. His people used to live in the Misty Mountains, but then the goblins came and through sheer weight of numbers killed off most of his people and drove him from his home, until he had to flee east of the River Anduin to get far enough away from them. But alone at night, he travels west to the Carrock where he sits in the dark and looks bitterly at the moon-lit mountains, and shakes a fisted paw in vain growling "one day they will be gone and I will be back!".........I get this mental image of like, that scene from "The Great Gatsby" where he's looking across Long Island Sound at the light from Zelda's house, and its beyond his reach, and in his despair he raises his hands up and stretches them towards where he'd like to be but can't. And he's a complex fellow, because on the one hand, he's kind of what you think of an unsocial "Giant", but on the other hand, he refuses to eat meat, and lives largely off of honey which he gets from his apiaries; so he practices "agriculture" and such and while not a "sophisticate" he clearly loves beautiful things and art, it's just all hand-made stuff. This raises the question: what accent should Beorn talk with, to show had destinct he is?

*Spiders of Mirkwood - they're animals, who unlike Orcs dont' even have the small redeeming qualities of basic civilization. Even the *Wargs* are above these things. They're more of a "monster". But seeing as they DO talk, how will they sound?

*Wargs - are being utterly redesigned for "the Hobbit" to be more like Norse Dire Wolves or something. They will talk, and of course play a greater role in The Hobbit: but how to convey this?

*Eagles - while they are "beasts that can talk", try to establish that they're basically.....well, just as Ents are the guardians of "plants", Eagles are the guardians of "animals". So moreso than an intelligent Spider or Warg, an Eagle is as intelligent as an Ent like Treebeard.

*Haradrim, Easterlings, and Corsairs - seen all-too briefly given how different they are. The Corsairs might be a major feature of the Appendix movie, so this may need much attention.

*Men of Lake-town - Just as the Rohirrim represent the Anglo-Saxons and speak Old English, the Men of Dale and Lake-town speak Old Norse. I think you should envision them as sort of a hypothetical "port trading town on the fringe of the North in Norway" or something. because on the one hand, they are FAR away from Gondor and "civilization". On the other hand, they're a major trading hub on a river system that stretches hundreds of miles, so they should be fairly "cosmopolitan" shouldn't they? I mean they've been known to interact with Elves on a regular basis, while the Rohirrim haven't seen Elves in so long that they actually FEAR Galadriel. Further, they seem to be run by their wealthy trading merchants or something.

and of course:

Dragons....HOW will he speak? What does this say of the other Dragons? When at the beginning Thorin is narrating the story that "the dragons on the Withered Heath learned of our wealth, and among them Smaug decided to attack"....will we see a brief montage of the "other dragons"? (I'm thinking of how in "Farmer Giles of Ham", when the "Dragons" hear about the Little Kingdom not being well defended, we see a drawing of not just Chrysophylax, but all the other oddly formed dragons.

"Pleased to meet you, hope you guessed my name, but what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game"


Formerly known on TORN as "Draug the Unspeakably Violent"



AlatarVinyamar
Lorien

Jan 1 2009, 11:20am

Post #2 of 31 (1315 views)
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Excellent Post V [In reply to] Can't Post

Just wanted to acknowledge it.


bookgirl13
Lorien


Jan 1 2009, 11:25am

Post #3 of 31 (1328 views)
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That is a wonderful summary of the ME Cultures [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for that. I was on my way to do housework and have been mesmerised by your summary (which is a much better way of spending New Years Day ;-) ). I have been long fascinated by all the detail that Tolkien poured into the history of the different races and how PJ and Weta picked up on that, embellishing it and making it live on screen. I rewatch the extras on the EE far more than the film as the creation of ME is just so enthralling.

The Hobbit is going to be a fascinating exercise in remaining true to the existing PJ/Weta vision, yet make it The Hobbit as opposed to a LotR-Lite story for kids.

Your comments about Legolas and the other high elves - thank you, those observations will feed back into my rewatching of the films. Even Arwen shows magical ability (at the Fords of Bruinen) but Legolas is superhuman - running, long-sighted, skill with bows and knives - without being supernatural. An interesting distinction and one that would suit the Mirkwood elves, who do not have the other-worldly quality of either Rivendell or Lothlorien.

Now to copy and print off this thread for future reference.


squire
Half-elven


Jan 1 2009, 2:15pm

Post #4 of 31 (1382 views)
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Inscrutable elves? [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice work! I don't agree with you on every point of design and influence, but I think you've done a lot of valuable synthesis here.

I will offer the idea that the Elves in Weta's designs don't really have "oriental" influences, if by Oriental you mean East Asian, Chinese, Korean or Japanese. That would be entirely alien to Tolkien's whole schema, which is that his Middle-earth is an amalgam of medieval NW Europe and its immediate neighbors to the south and east.

To me, just as the Dwarves' style is fundamentally Art Deco, the Elves' style is Art Nouveau. Here is an Elvish staircase found in an 1892 hotel in Brussels:





squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


_V_
Lorien


Jan 1 2009, 4:14pm

Post #5 of 31 (1435 views)
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I am not an art expert, and at best a middling student of language.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks I didn't know what "Art Nouveau" was but it really sounds like what they were shooting for: "A reaction to academic art of the 19th century, it is characterized by organic, especially floral and other plant-inspired motifs, as well as highly-stylized, flowing curvilinear forms.Art Nouveau is an approach to design according to which artists should work on everything from architecture to furniture, making art part of everyday life."

Nonetheless, at least in their weaponry, I've heard Weta directly say that things like their swords and Legolas' daggers are supposed to draw inspiration from Oriental weaponry.

Or take Arwen's FOTR "Farewell" dress, which looks like a Middle-earth twist on a kimono:



GDT pointed out that basically....we're in the far North and East of Middle-earth here. All of the LOTR films took place in lands that were, at least in ancient times, controlled by the Numenoreans or Arnor and Gondor. The Dunedain kingdoms never really got beyond the Misty Mountains, and certainly not the other other side of Mirkwood and the River Running. So the cultures will be a bit...different. But if we're using the "it's ancient primordial Europe" analog, would that mean that Mirkwood is the vast forests of the east? Tolkien as a philologist reprimanded the "Easterlings" for having a slavic-type language. That is, I'm not sure if by "East" Tolkien meant "Slavic" or "Persian and Chinese" (The "Easterlings" are of course a large group of disparate races, and the Easterlings we see in TTT are sort of a mix of Samurai and Persian designs, which I think do fit pretty well, but there's more than one kind of "easterling" given that it's considered "anything east of Mordor and the Iron Hills and the Sea of Rhun" which is a VAST area.






"Pleased to meet you, hope you guessed my name, but what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game"


Formerly known on TORN as "Draug the Unspeakably Violent"



Alientraveller
Lorien

Jan 1 2009, 8:49pm

Post #6 of 31 (1286 views)
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Art noveau is mentioned on the DVD, but art deco isn't [In reply to] Can't Post

However, Alan Lee did describe the Dwarves as being very preoccupied with geometry. I don't think Jackson really regarded the likes of the Trolls, Ents, Spiders and so on to be really cultures, although a lot of effort was put into creating their sounds. John Rhys-Davies didn't know how to voice Treebeard for months.

The DVD does mention Aztecs and Kiribati influenced the Haradrim, which is funny considering how far west those cultures were. The Easterlings, according to the Art Of books, definitely had a Middle East and samurai vibe. You went into a lot of detail about the Orcs but not Sauron and his inner circle; John Howe mentioned the Barad-dur is a gothic mockery of Numenorean architecture. Makes sense since he fell from grace.

Do you know where you know that all of the Elves' lines had to be redubbed?


bookgirl13
Lorien


Jan 1 2009, 9:07pm

Post #7 of 31 (1272 views)
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Eastern Influences [In reply to] Can't Post

Although the art and architecture of Rivendell (and to a lesser extent, Lothlorien) owes much to Art Nouveau/Celtic influences, like you I find the costumes and the weaponry more Eastern in inspiration. The long robes, especially the Rivendell ones which tend to be more structured, evoke China and Japanese traditional costume. And the curve of Elvish blades reminded me of Samurai katana, rather than the broadswords of European tradition, or even the lighter, thinner rapier.

Of course, Howard Shore's music reflects these two influences as well. Rivendell (exemplified by Enya's singing) is Celtic in inspiration. But when we go to Lothlorien, Shore (and presumably PJ) wanted to make it more mysterious, apart from the normality of the hobbits etc, and therefore the Asian/Eastern musical influences are strengthened, with the use of a female chorus and the use of "Eastern influenced harmonic nuances" (to quote Doug Adams).


_V_
Lorien


Jan 1 2009, 9:09pm

Post #8 of 31 (1288 views)
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as for the dubbing [In reply to] Can't Post

Craig Parker (Haldir) mentioned it in the commentary at some point...he might have only been referring to Lothlorien Elves.

Yes I was very tired and was rushing at the end: it's something like they didn't want the Haradrim to look like straigh "Berbers" or Arabs, so they put in a lot of Aztec/Kiribati stuff and used that "bamboo" motiff (they came up with the idea that there's a bamboo-like plant in Harad that they make most of their spears out of)

gothic mockery of Numenorean architecture? well I do like his comments in Orthanc about how its a monolithic, arrogant design of just one vast room created by an advanced race that was rivalling the Gods with their hubris.

"Pleased to meet you, hope you guessed my name, but what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game"


Formerly known on TORN as "Draug the Unspeakably Violent"



silneldor
Half-elven


Jan 2 2009, 1:46am

Post #9 of 31 (1293 views)
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I just wanted to thank you [In reply to] Can't Post

for your concise and through overlay of all living entities in M-e. It was a fascinating read. It really help me to bring so may of the bit and pieces together into a whole.
What would you have to say about Shelob?
Hey, what about the fox?Laugh

I was fascinated about your Beorn thoughts and also about Laketown and because it being a crossroads, had influence and contact with the races of M-e accept maybe the dwarves. I wonder if they had contact with some from the Iron Hills?

"Tolkien, like Lewis, believed that, through story, the real world would become a more magical place, full of meaning. We see its patterns and colors in a fresh way. The recovery of a true view of the world applies both to individual things, like hills and stones, and to the cosmic - the depths of space and time itself. For in sub-creation, in Tolkien's view, there is a "survey" of space and time. Reality is captured on a miniature scale. Through stories like The Lord of the Rings, a renewed view of things is given, illuminating the homely, the spiritial, the physical, and the moral dimensions of the world."

Tolkien and C.S. Lewis- The Gift of Friendship -Duriez


May the grace of ManwŰ let us soar with eagle's wings!

In the air, among the clouds in the sky
Here is where the birds of Manwe fly
Looking at the land, and the water that flows
The true beauty of earth shows
With the stars of Varda lighting my way
In all the realms this is where I stay
In the realm of ManwŰ S˙limo
By El~Cugu (From the website: 'The realm of Manwe')










sador
Half-elven

Jan 2 2009, 7:12am

Post #10 of 31 (1312 views)
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No comment, just joining to silneldor's thanks\\ [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"I had so much to do here; and packing is such a bother" - Bilbo


_V_
Lorien


Jan 2 2009, 5:01pm

Post #11 of 31 (1236 views)
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Concerning Lake-town [In reply to] Can't Post

(btw, "Esgaroth" is the earlier, bigger town that Smaug destroyed when he first arrived at Lonely Mountain; a smaller town was then rebuilt in its place, "Lake-town", but you can see that trade isn't what it used to be without the Dwarves, and they're not as prosperous or wealthy as they were in the past. They still do brisk trade between Thranduil's Elves and lands as far away as Dorwinion down the river, though.

Well, again, compare this to their distant Rohirrim cousins, who openly fear Galadriel and Lothlorien and treat Elves as just-this-side-of-legendary because they haven't been in contact with them for so long. Conversely, the Men of Lake-town (many of whom are the remnant from Dale) interact with Wood-Elves all the time in brisk river-trade, to the point that Elf barge crews are at the feast they're holding when Thorin & Co barge in.

***Anyone seen "The Thirteenth Warrior"? It's kind of......the Men of Lake-town speak Old Norse as the Rohirrim speak Old English. Yet they are in the extreme North-east of explored Middle-earth and frequently trade down rivers and such with far-away peoples. So on the one hand, they aren't as sophisticated as the centers of "civilization" but on the other hand, they're odly cosmopolitan in a way. You see, the Vikings from Scandinavia actually traded with Byzantium, or even the Islamic Empire, by going down rivers and such (also how they made contact with the primitive Rus and such). We know this from coinage evidence; they'd trade furs and stuff from the far north, and they actually traded across VAST distances using river systems. So the Vikings of the Baltic sea...were on the one hand on the "edge of explored europe, and near the frozen wastelands of the north and east" but at the same time, they were conducting a large amount of trade with distant areas as far away as Constantinople or Damascus. "The Thirteenth Warrior" is a movie based on a Michael Chrichton book, about a Muslim official who (as punishment for falling in love with a woman belonging to another man) is sent on as an ambassador on a trading expedition to their remote Viking trading partners along the Baltic Sea (the actual plot then involves them fighting holdout Neanderthals who survived in the remote mountains of Scandinavia).

But that's how I see the Men of Lake-town; Tolkien seems to have given them an "Old Norse" twist, just as the Rohirrim are Anglo-Saxon "Beowulf" stuff (slightly Celtic in design at times), the Men of Lake-town are based on Baltic-Sea Vikings (YES, there is a distinction between "Anglo-Saxons" and "Vikings" as King Alfred the Great would tell you!), who while we think of them as "primitive", actually conducted trade through river-systems on a long-distance scale.

It's not that "we go East in Middle-earth, and run into Mongol Hordes of the Steppe or Chinese Empire stuff"....that's the Easterlings (who are a GROUP of wildly different races) i.e. the "Easterlings" we see in TTT might be ones from the south (keeping with the idea that they're "pseudo-Persian/Japanese designs")

I'd expect the "northern Easterlings" to be more like the Mongol Hordes (designs based on wound rope and stuff.....I've seen other shows like Farscape or Stargate do twists on what "Mongol costuming and design" looks like and it's not just primitive "barbarians" in animal skins or something, they've got cultural craftswork even though they're a mobile people of the steppe) but I digress....

the point is that the Men of Lake-town are clearly established by Tolkien as being neither "Eastern" nor even "Slavic" (as one proceeds east in Middle-earth, which is pseudo-European)

he makes it clear that they're sort of the Easternmost outpost of peoples from western Middle-earth, Edain who split off from the group that became the Anglo-Saxon Rohirrim, to become the Old Norse Men of Lake-town and Dale.

They're a Viking river-trading port city on the Baltic Sea. Of course, they've got *influences* from being in contact with so many other races.

It's an odd mix of "at the same time they're supposed to be a bit more "primitive" and "frontier" than even the Rohirrim, but at the same time, they're more cosmopoltan because they trade with other peoples alot"

***and of course, the question is raised: with GDT build a "Waterworld"-scale, life-size, fully realized Lake-town? Just as they fully realized and built Edoras? as a kid it always struck me as really interesting that their whole town is built in the middle of the lake and connected to the shroe by a long bridge (which can be collapsed when under siege) ; basically they're like an oil-rig city or something. I'm sorry to draw the frequent comparisons to "Waterworld", but that's the impression I get....or maybe the city in Star Wars Episode II on Kamino, the water-planet, where it's all on stilts in the middle of an ocean. something visually like that.

So GDT would have to find this odd mix that they're obviously "Viking traders from the Baltic", but that say, wealthier people would have bits and pieces of anachronistic jewelry from somewhere else; i.e. a rich person would be able to afford jewelry they got from the east and south in Rhun from the Easterlings or from the Dark Elves in Dorwinion. There WOULD be a lot of Elvish stuff they got through trading, and holdout stuff from the days they were trading with the Dwarves (i.e. Bard held onto a Dwarf-made black "super-arrow", which which he kills Smaug; the arrow should obviously be of Dwarf-design)

"Pleased to meet you, hope you guessed my name, but what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game"


Formerly known on TORN as "Draug the Unspeakably Violent"



_V_
Lorien


Jan 2 2009, 5:31pm

Post #12 of 31 (1269 views)
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Concerning Beorn [In reply to] Can't Post

On the matter of Beorn:

This is what I said quickly before:




*Beorn - Beorn actually always struck me as a sad, tragic figure: his people are Men, but they're Skin-changers that can magically change their form, and he can become a bear. His people used to live in the Misty Mountains, but then the goblins came and through sheer weight of numbers killed off most of his people and drove him from his home, until he had to flee east of the River Anduin to get far enough away from them. But alone at night, he travels west to the Carrock where he sits in the dark and looks bitterly at the moon-lit mountains, and shakes a fisted paw in vain growling "one day they will be gone and I will be back!".........I get this mental image of like, that scene from "The Great Gatsby" where he's looking across Long Island Sound at the light from Zelda's house, and its beyond his reach, and in his despair he raises his hands up and stretches them towards where he'd like to be but can't. And he's a complex fellow, because on the one hand, he's kind of what you think of an unsocial "Giant", but on the other hand, he refuses to eat meat, and lives largely off of honey which he gets from his apiaries; so he practices "agriculture" and such and while not a "sophisticate" he clearly loves beautiful things and art, it's just all hand-made stuff. This raises the question: what accent should Beorn talk with, to show had destinct he is?



I'll devote more time to this later, but skimming through the book:

Beorn is, while a lone man living in the forest (and maybe occasionally having some contact with the other "Woodmen"...they do say he later becomes king of the men between Anduin and Mirkwood so he's not a total recluse, he just don't normally get visitors...and he obviously hates the Goblins for attacking the Woodmen)....but he's not some "savage wearing skins"; notice that as part that he doesn't eat meat and has animals as his magical servants, he doesn't even wear "animal skins"; he makes his own wool from sheep (thus not killing anything) as his clothes are described as "a tunic of wool". I mean, obviously homespun, but we're not talking about the Cyclops from the Odyssey here; he obviously is a guy who knows arts and crafts and the "tools of civilization", though he makes everything himself and they are of home-made quality.
Further, in his first scene he says he's never heard of Gandalf, but he has had some brief contact a while ago with Radagast the Brown (Radagast the Fool!)

the big thing to remember is that he's sort of a proto-Tom Bombadil. Like Tom, he's said to be under no one's enchantment or allegiance but his own. UNLIKE Tom, he's actually a "product" of Middle-earth, and while he doesn't talk about his past, he obviously comes from the Misty Mountains but was driven out, and he hates the Orcs and fights them. If anything, while several have compared him to Bombadil, I think arguably he's comparable to Treebeard in that respect: he's not exactly on anyone's "side" when we meet him, because no one is exactly on *his* "side", though he's against the Orcs, and when he first meet him he's at worst ambivalanet to the other Woodmen or at best, he'll help them as allies against the Orcs. You know what I mean.
But as for "where Beorn comes from" and "who he is", I think it would be odd for him to be some sort of magic bear (as some believed) and Tolkien does say (through Gandalf) that he's of the race of Men, though his people were enchanted "Skin-Changers" (think like the Tale of Fafnir or something and that guy that changed into an otter....this type of thing happens all the time in old Germanic fables....some people just "happen" to possess the magical power of being able to change into an animal)
but let me return to the whole thing of what Beorn's motivation is; rather than this happy, nutty guy living alone with his animals, I see him as this dark and tragic figure, the "Lone Survivor" of the ancient Skin-Changing Men of the Misty Mountains who (through pure weight of numbers) were overwhelmed and destroyed by the Goblins. Let us turn to the book, which I didn't the first time:
"Some say that he is a bear descended from the great and ancient bears of the mountains that lived there before the giants came. Others say that he is a man descended from the first men who lived before Smaug or the other dragons came into this part of the world, and before the goblins came into the hills out of the North. I cannot say, though I fancy the last is the true tale. He is not the sort of person to ask questions of. At any rate he is under no enchantment but his own....
As a bear he ranges far and wide. I once saw him sitting all alone on the top of the Carrock at night watching the Moon sinking towards the Misty Mountains, and I heard him growl in the tongue of the bears; "The day will come when they will perish and I shall go back!" That is why I believe he once came from the mountains himself." --
Chapter VII, "Queer Lodgings"



So yeah, that image always stuck with me. He's a guy who spends hours at night staring at where his home and people used to be, bathed in moonlight, shaking his fist in vain at it. Or again, like that thing from the Great Gatsby where he stretches his arms towards Zelda's house as if to cross the water. I mean Gandalf said that Beorn *built* the Carrock. (the "Carrock", the giant stone set in the middle of the Anduin River, the word is defined by Gandalf as "it's called that because "carrock" is what Boern's word is for "giant stones set in the middle of a river". That one is called "THE Carrock" because its' the biggest one.
Beorn went to the trouble of rolling a giant boulder from who knows how far way, into the middle of the river, then carving steps on the eastern side of it so he can easily get to the top. He did all of this just so he can look at the Misty Mountains at night. (the idea being that they're very far away but the Anduin valley is a flat plain, you can't see the mountains from Beorn's house further east, but on top of the high "Carrock" you can see it. I assume he put it in the River so no one else would try to move it)
So he's this tragic form of a person who went through all this effort just to gaze out back where he was driven from. Even though he knows it will do no good; he kills Goblins that happen to run into him, but he has no real "plan" for ever getting back into the mountains. He's like a schoolboy driven away from the swingset by bullies, who shakes his fist at the playground and in vain declares that "one day they will be be driven off and I will be back!"

The other big thing about Beorn I think is cool is that he always transforms "off screen" in the books; he just reappears in Bear or Men form but we never actually see the transition.
Weta Workshop mentioned in passing that they're actually going to make a giant set-piece special effects transformation scene of Beorn changing between Bear and Man form. As you will remember, they actually designed all the creatures like the Trolls with actual skeletal and musculature systems. It's a real animal and you can see the muscles moving underneath the skin. So now they're going to apply that level of technology to showing a creature change its morphology between man form and bear form. I'm excited for what they'll be able to come up with, given that it's actually supposed to "function" in the real world.

A question though is what accent he will have: he's descended from the ancient men of the mountains, and he understands Westron, but I mean he's a Bear. Should his speach be just something the actor comes up with on his own?

Oh to heck with it...."Perlman-ese" is a language in and of itself.

"Pleased to meet you, hope you guessed my name, but what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game"


Formerly known on TORN as "Draug the Unspeakably Violent"



(This post was edited by _V_ on Jan 2 2009, 5:38pm)


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jan 2 2009, 6:17pm

Post #13 of 31 (1225 views)
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Not "in the forest". [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Beorn is, while a lone man living in the forest (and maybe occasionally having some contact with the other "Woodmen"...



A minor note: Beorn's home is not in Mirkwood but near it, and apparently the forest is not so near as to be visible from his home.


Quote
I get this mental image of that scene from The Great Gatsby where he's looking across Long Island Sound at the light from Zelda's house, and its beyond his reach, and in his despair he raises his hands up and stretches them towards where he'd like to be but can't.



Another minor note: you're thinking of Daisy Buchanan. There is no Zelda in The Great Gatsby, though that was the name of F. Scott Fitzgerald's wife.

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The discussion is on hiatus for the holidays.
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_V_
Lorien


Jan 2 2009, 6:41pm

Post #14 of 31 (1210 views)
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this may have something to do with the fact that [In reply to] Can't Post

I hate "The Great Gatsby" with a fiery passion. I just remember the visual image of him stretching his arms as if to cross the Long Island Sound to his love. Yes, it was Daisy.

"Pleased to meet you, hope you guessed my name, but what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game"


Formerly known on TORN as "Draug the Unspeakably Violent"



Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Jan 2 2009, 7:02pm

Post #15 of 31 (1237 views)
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I'm such a broken record [In reply to] Can't Post

but Esgaroth/Lake-town --- in appearance, at least--- was undeniably inspired by the Neolithic lake dwellings of Switzerland. But there are a few later Swedish settlements in the "Rivendell" region of Canton Bern.
There's been academic debate about whether Rh˘ne means "running" or "river", and Tolkien himself walked for miles along this river which was an important trade route centuries ago. There are other bits about towns and legends along the river which also appear to tie in with The Hobbit, but I'd better stop before I have everyone snoring.
I have no problem with using the more familiar Baltic Sea society model for the film(s), I just wanted to point out that it isn't the only obvious choice to me. :)

Studying the influence of Tolkien's visit to Switzerland on his writing is my pet project due to my own Swiss ancestry, but I try to keep it under control here, though. ;)
I really, really, really want to see Lake-town on the big screen!


squire
Half-elven


Jan 2 2009, 7:11pm

Post #16 of 31 (1236 views)
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*skip* you're right *skip* you're right *skip* ... [In reply to] Can't Post

None of Tolkien's attempts to retrofit his Lord of the Rings ethnographies onto The Hobbit's far simpler eastern "Wilderland" really work well. It always feels very forced compared to his rather sophisticated parodies of Western Civ as interpreted in his Gondor/Rohan/Arnor triptych.

I understand WETA's desire to work these things out on a visual level for film, which they seem to feel the need to justify with mock-historical analogies, but that doesn't have to make them right, or even authoritative, in our own understanding of who's who or where's where in the textual versions of Middle-earth. (After all, even "Middle-earth" doesn't exist in The Hobbit, as such.)



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


VoronwŰ_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jan 2 2009, 7:12pm

Post #17 of 31 (1247 views)
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You need not restrain yourself [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
There are other bits about towns and legends along the river which also appear to tie in with The Hobbit, but I'd better stop before I have everyone snoring.
<snip> Studying the influence of Tolkien's visit to Switzerland on his writing is my pet project due to my own Swiss ancestry, but I try to keep it under control here, though. ;)

I for one would be more than happy to have you share as much of this stuff with us as you care to, Eowyn. I think it is fascinating subject, and well worth exploring. I just thought you should know that at least one person would happy to see more of it!

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'


bookgirl13
Lorien


Jan 2 2009, 9:09pm

Post #18 of 31 (1377 views)
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The Annotated Hobbit [In reply to] Can't Post

Douglas Anderson pulls together some interesting illustrations for Swiss lake dwellings which show a remarkable similarity to Tolkien's own illustration for Lake Town.

There is also a passage from Herodotus describing a lake village on Lake Prasias near the Aegean. And apparently there were similar settlements in Scotland and England, including the Holderness peninsula, Yorkshire where Tolkien was stationed in 1917.

Where I can see that the idea of the Lakemen being 'barbarians' but, through their trade, better informed and happier with other races than the Rohirrim, is a plausible one and with similarities with the Norsemen or the Baltic Sea society, there is obviously a mixture of influences behind Tolkien's conception.

Looking at the illustrations of these lake dwellings in Switzerland, Tolkien's illustration is too similar to not be a deliberate echo. But it is equally likely that the extensive trading routes of the northern sea farers (or other trading nations) was also in his mind when he wanted to describe the lakemen's society. Venice, also built on stilts in a lagoon, built its wealth and power on trade with links across the known world.

But I can see that using a Northern European model rather than a Southern European one for the Lakemen is more useful within the film.

The idea of seeing Lake Town built is a fascinating one and they have many resources to call upon including the reconstruction of such a settlement at Unteruhidingen in Switzerland.


silneldor
Half-elven


Jan 4 2009, 4:47am

Post #19 of 31 (1217 views)
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I wanted to get a better conception of that [In reply to] Can't Post

Swiss 'Unteruhidingen in Switzerland' so i yahooed it (nothing came up) and then googled it and, what do you know i found it right here where i started, gee i better check it outTongue.
So does anyone have access to this from Doug Anderson's world or other?
I too am fascinated with Laketown loving living on a lake and being in it almost half the time fixing my dock, swimming or being involved with assortment of boats.
I was fascinated with both Water world and the Star Wars 'water world' .although i see something different instilling more a sense of the quiet natural beauty such as we find in the shire and Lothlorien but where water reflections play a part involving the sun, birds, and Laketown itself with it's vast 'forest' of pillars, ladders, boat moorings,and people going about their daily activities. All the little sounds mingling too in with the sound of the water itself. Whatever architectural model is chosen i feel mood will be the more important aspect:). I do not see them as barbaric in any sense though.

"Tolkien, like Lewis, believed that, through story, the real world would become a more magical place, full of meaning. We see its patterns and colors in a fresh way. The recovery of a true view of the world applies both to individual things, like hills and stones, and to the cosmic - the depths of space and time itself. For in sub-creation, in Tolkien's view, there is a "survey" of space and time. Reality is captured on a miniature scale. Through stories like The Lord of the Rings, a renewed view of things is given, illuminating the homely, the spiritial, the physical, and the moral dimensions of the world."

Tolkien and C.S. Lewis- The Gift of Friendship -Duriez


May the grace of ManwŰ let us soar with eagle's wings!

In the air, among the clouds in the sky
Here is where the birds of Manwe fly
Looking at the land, and the water that flows
The true beauty of earth shows
With the stars of Varda lighting my way
In all the realms this is where I stay
In the realm of ManwŰ S˙limo
By El~Cugu (From the website: 'The realm of Manwe')










silneldor
Half-elven


Jan 4 2009, 5:54am

Post #20 of 31 (1190 views)
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Beorn is a fascination to me [In reply to] Can't Post

 because of his wild range of temperament. Here is one cut from the harsh and brutal world of evil that exists in the wild. That explains the goblin head and skin where a understandable zero tolerance is seen. Like you said he was driven from his home and holds a bitterness but to me i feel he is attempting to create a niche of peace for himself having a gentleness in caring for his peaceful animal companions. But during the night where evil lurks his vigil is intense with a ferocity due to having to be a force of one as he is. To survive he has to be an army of one. The ones he cares about depend on him. And that extends in the end to Bilbo and the Dwarves with his pent rage released with utter fury, a reckoning of immense will born from an age of waiting .

"Tolkien, like Lewis, believed that, through story, the real world would become a more magical place, full of meaning. We see its patterns and colors in a fresh way. The recovery of a true view of the world applies both to individual things, like hills and stones, and to the cosmic - the depths of space and time itself. For in sub-creation, in Tolkien's view, there is a "survey" of space and time. Reality is captured on a miniature scale. Through stories like The Lord of the Rings, a renewed view of things is given, illuminating the homely, the spiritial, the physical, and the moral dimensions of the world."

Tolkien and C.S. Lewis- The Gift of Friendship -Duriez


May the grace of ManwŰ let us soar with eagle's wings!

In the air, among the clouds in the sky
Here is where the birds of Manwe fly
Looking at the land, and the water that flows
The true beauty of earth shows
With the stars of Varda lighting my way
In all the realms this is where I stay
In the realm of ManwŰ S˙limo
By El~Cugu (From the website: 'The realm of Manwe')










bookgirl13
Lorien


Jan 4 2009, 8:24am

Post #21 of 31 (1454 views)
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Lake Dwellings [In reply to] Can't Post

Try searching under "Lake Dwellings". That is the term that archeologists have given to these ancient settlements by/in water. Apparently although the 19C conception was of them as depicted by Tolkien's Lake Town, in actuality they were shoreline buildings, later submerged by enlarged lake etc. But the 19C engravings reconstructing those sites were obviously a very important inspiration for Tolkien.


Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Jan 5 2009, 10:50pm

Post #22 of 31 (1161 views)
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This is pure UUT, but... [In reply to] Can't Post

while it has neither lake shore nor pile-huts, the town of Brig on the Rh˘ne may meet some of the trade center and cultural crossroad criteria, and we know that Tolkien spent a night there (though he later described it as "a mere memory of noise" due to the trams). The second-oldest town in Canton Valais, it is rumored to be the site of the ancient Viberiga, and is a bit of an architectural oddity with turrets, minarets, and cupolas mixed in with the more expected styles. The bridge and passes made it a hub even before the arrival of the train system. It also has proximity to some other things going for it, but that's another post.
Oh, and K. J. von Stockalper might not have appreciated being compared to the Master of Lake-town, but he certainly was a master of the trading business and had the palace in Brig to prove it. ;)


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jan 6 2009, 2:04pm

Post #23 of 31 (1149 views)
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Try this: [In reply to] Can't Post

Unteruhldingen. (There was a minor typo in bookgirl's version of the name, which is why Google only brought you back here - I've seen that happen before!)

Tongue

Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The shipĺs beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song



bookgirl13
Lorien


Jan 6 2009, 4:59pm

Post #24 of 31 (1137 views)
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I thought that that would be the problem . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

. . . but was too embarrassed to point the finger to my own mistakes Blush. A search on 'Lake Dwellings' will be even more fruitful as it will not be confined purely to the museum at Unteruhldingen (I hope I got it right this time as I have realised that I am reading 'l' as 'i').


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jan 6 2009, 5:16pm

Post #25 of 31 (1144 views)
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Hey, we all do it... [In reply to] Can't Post

(make mistakes, I mean Blush). Luckily there's always someone here to point them out, whether you want them to or not!

Tongue

(Easy mistake to make on that name, but having lived in Switzerland it just didn't strike me as quite the way a Swiss name should be. So I tried a couple of minor alterations, and Google came to the rescue by suggesting the proper spelling...)

Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The shipĺs beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song


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