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Nuradar
Rohan
Dec 19 2008, 4:09pm
Post #1 of 40
(1038 views)
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SCOD - December 19: Legolas Rides Again
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There were several shots that evoke strong feelings from this section, so it was hard to choose. But I chose this one because of the cinematography...
Here we see Legolas fighting a Harradrim soldier on top of a Mumakil.
- Legolas' acrobatic adventures tend generate strong feelings, either good or bad. What did you think about this one? Cool? Ridiculous? Both?
- As I mentioned above, I chose this shot because of the cinematography - the wide shot and exapanse of the Pelennor Fields and the mountains in the background. We also see the Dead Army redeeming itself down on the ground below. Do you like the composition of this shot? Why or why not?
- Did you like the look of the Haradrim soldiers (clothes, painted faces, head scarves)?
- Bonus question: what the heck is that thing burning on the field on the left-hand side of the image? Bonus points to whoever can give a likely answer.
Thanks for allowing me to host this week's SCOD posts. As usual, I've enjoyed every minute, and I've learned so much from your insightful answers.
Happy Holidays everyone!
Nuradar
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weathertop
Rohan
Dec 19 2008, 4:37pm
Post #2 of 40
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maybe? its been...*ghasp* almost a year since i've seen the film...
1.
i know Leg is light on his feet but there are a couple CGI shots of his acrobatics that i just couldn't swallow. it was so bad it took me out of the moment. and now come to think of it they both were similar actions...hmmm. when he swung up under the horse's neck defying all aspects of momentum and inertia (yes i'm a rocket scientist) and the other is when he swung up under the oilyphants leg - tho i did like the climbing immediately after...
2.
this particular cell is pretty good capture of many elements (law of thirds, many focal points both up close and in the distance, many lines leading the eye, yet not too many to totally confuse the observer).
tho this scene captures one of my biggest gripes about all the films - the way the dead sweep over the foes like a wave (not sure if thats exactly what the words in the book say, but even if they are, its waaaaay too literal for me). personally i would have liked there to be many dead in order to meet the foe 1v1 and have a ton of tiny battles that take a while, yet overwhelmingly turn the tide. the whole thing being done in a matter of seconds felt like they did it cus they ran out of time, which with years of post processing that they had, shouldn't have been the case.
anyway, make it short - hated the film's deadmen victory.
3.
i particularly enjoyed the costuming of the Harradrim...oops got to go.
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Nuradar
Rohan
Dec 19 2008, 5:13pm
Post #3 of 40
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A burning catapult is a reasonable guess. Thanks.
I like the composition of this shot also. I agree that I would have loved to see the Dead Army do more man-to-man combat that what was shown. Defnitely a lost opportunity for WETA to flex their muscles even more to show how cool it would have been for the Dead Army soldiers to cut down some Orc. I'm sorry it was anti-climactic for you the way it was done. Thanks for your response weathertop,
Nuradar
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almas_sparks
Rohan
Dec 19 2008, 6:53pm
Post #4 of 40
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1) This shot is actually normal as we don`t see shield-surfing (which is probably the most ridiculous action device ever). he`s taking on an opponent and both of them have damn good balance. I actually admire Harradrim soldier`s balance more since he is not a superhumaniod (Elf).
2) This shot has lots of stuff going on but the focus is on Legolas and the Harradrim so backround stuff is not distracting like, lets say, that big window showing Coruscant traffic while Padme and Annie are having a conversation in front of it. They did a good job at showing scope of the battle while retaining individual focus, IMO. However, I do agree that the dead Army sweeping the enemy in a bee swarm manner was lazy way to deal with the matter on both CGI and storywise level.
3) Harradrim look totally badass. Too bad they didn`t get more focus in the books, or that there was no Harradrim major character, but they just look amazing and exotic and interesting compared to Medieval Knights-like Gondoreanzzzzzzz and Rohirrim. I bet most beautiful Harradrim ladies are as beautiful as Beyonce or Bollywood stars and dress in the same sexy manner and,of course, put overrated death bed-pale beauties like Arwen to shame. :)
4) Since the movie thought us that the Orcs invented dynamite (hence why Middle Earth didn`t need Elves and their magic anymore - the age of civilization has begun with a gun...powder), I guess one exploded and the fire is just aftermath of explosion.
(This post was edited by almas_sparks on Dec 19 2008, 6:56pm)
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Nuradar
Rohan
Dec 19 2008, 7:23pm
Post #5 of 40
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keeping in mind this is a family-friendly discussion board
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I can understand and respect your thoughts on this screen shot. I'm also grateful that the beautiful background doesn't distract from the main objects (Legolas and Haradrim soldier). I also agree that the Haradrim soldiers look quite exotic in the movie. I don't want to start a discussion on the women - this is a family-friendly website  . Thanks for your thoughts, almas
Nuradar
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Dec 19 2008, 9:24pm
Post #6 of 40
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1) It looks cool, and probably more believable than the jump onto the horse in TT. If it is possible to stand on a galloping horse, then you can stand on a trotting Mumak - broader back and slower movement helps with the balance. But it's still rather unusual to fight in such a place 
2) The Dead Army wasn't exactly as I'd imagined it, but I like the shot itself. It gives an idea about the height of the Mumak in comparison to the tiny foot soldiers and shows the landscape, too.
3) They were certainly memorable and very different from the other human races, so they're easy to tell apart from Gondorians, Rohirrim etc.
4) Good question. Can't remember that from the movie at all. Maybe it was one of these wartowers? They were made of wood and easily burning after being hit by a burning arrow. Though I am not sure it was in arrow reach to the wall of the city or where someone in the midst of battle did take the fire from.
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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weaver
Half-elven
Dec 19 2008, 10:11pm
Post #7 of 40
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people always cheered at this shot in the theater...
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Yeah, it's an over the top crowd pleasing bit -- but I like it.
I think the CGI is better here than it was in the Cave Troll shot -- probably had to be since this shot was a lot longer and in daylight.
I think of the Army of the Dead as more of an overpowering, supernatural force for which there is no defense. Kind of like a deadly tide or a tsunami. There is just no way to resist the power they represent, so they can take everything out pretty quickly, since you "can't" fight them.
Thanks for leading us this week -- a very enjoyable choice of selections and questions!
Weaver
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Bladorthin
The Shire
Dec 19 2008, 10:24pm
Post #8 of 40
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1. Definitely a pleasant combat sequence. Cool, emotionally stimulating.
2. Several elements difficult to swallow. This shot is partially blurred as a result of the motion it portrays, but that is not enough to excuse these flaws.
a.) The CG texture work is inferior to much of what is presented throughout this film. Parts of the Mumak seem poorly textured, and the wartower components visible here are too "smooth" to be acceped as realistic. Some of the lighting contrasts seem unrefined.
b.) The haradrim soldier's foot does not appear to be interacting with the Mumak's body. The impression is that he is floating.
c.) Legolas himself is passable, but his presence furthers the issues with the Mumak CGI. Granted, the Mumakil wartower material is very thick, which may explain this somewhat, but it does seem that Legolas and the Oliphaunt are not contained within the same lighting scenario. His garments flow, are adequetely textured, and are apparently responding more realistically to the illumination. It amost appears as if the CG artist did not know precisely how the digital element of this shot should have been grafted in.
3. Yes, for the most part.
4. Hm. This is quite unlikely due to the isolation of the burning object, but I do recall Tolkien mentioning pits being dug around Minas Tirith wherein the fires of Mordor could be started and maintained for various evil purposes (catapault ammo, for example.)
In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth...
Gen. 1:1
There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar...
-The Silmarillion
(This post was edited by Bladorthin on Dec 19 2008, 10:29pm)
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batik
Tol Eressea
Dec 20 2008, 12:15am
Post #9 of 40
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Legolas' acrobatic adventures tend generate strong feelings, either good or bad. What did you think about this one? Cool? Ridiculous? Both?
Both! Ridiculously cool? Technically (but I'm no technican) it didn't quite work for me *but* it is fun to watch!
As I mentioned above, I chose this shot because of the cinematography - the wide shot and exapanse of the Pelennor Fields and the mountains in the background. We also see the Dead Army redeeming itself down on the ground below. Do you like the composition of this shot? Why or why not?
Kind of a bird's-eye view--yes, this is a good shot.
Did you like the look of the Haradrim soldiers (clothes, painted faces, head scarves)?
Yes-a big contrast to everyone else's *look*--kind of exotic and foreign-looking in Gondor.
Bonus question: what the heck is that thing burning on the field on the left-hand side of the image? Bonus points to whoever can give a likely answer.
Denethor? 
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Nuradar
Rohan
Dec 20 2008, 1:26am
Post #10 of 40
(678 views)
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That's a good point Peredhil lover. This shot really does show how tall the mumakil is. Someone else said it may be a catapult, which is also made of wood. These seem like a reasonable possibility for sure. Thanks Peredhil!
Nuradar
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Nuradar
Rohan
Dec 20 2008, 1:32am
Post #11 of 40
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really are crowd pleasers, aren't they? It's like they're catering to the swash-bucklers in us all. You mention the Cave Troll in FOTR. I always feel that when he's lying dead on the ground, he seems so much smaller than when he was upright. It doesn't seem right somehow. The CGI in this series of shots is pretty incredible. Thanks weaver!
Nuradar
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Nuradar
Rohan
Dec 20 2008, 1:37am
Post #12 of 40
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You have a keen eye to notice all of those things. I actually did notice that Legolas's feet were a little out of focus, but I didn't notice anything else. I actually thought the skin of the mumakil was quite detailed and realistic, but that's more apparent in other screen shots. To me, the greatest difficulty with CGI is to give the object a realistic weight. Thanks for your observations Bladorthin!
Nuradar
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Nuradar
Rohan
Dec 20 2008, 1:40am
Post #13 of 40
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That's my favorite answer! Very funny batik. Poor miserable fella.
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Henoluin Elsilim
Rivendell
Dec 20 2008, 1:54am
Post #14 of 40
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1) Very cool. More believeable than swinging up onto Arod like he did in TTT (though I love that part).
2) To be honest, I really never paid attantion to the background before. I was always focused on Legolas.
3) Yes. They looked... not really scary, but definatly intimidating.
4) I have no idea what it could possibly be. A catipult, or a fallen tower maybe? Personally, I like Batik's answer. 
Awesome screen cap! Like i said, I love this scene, and this was a good shot.
Happy Holidays all!
~ Henoluin ~
"Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with Ketchup."
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Dec 20 2008, 2:43am
Post #15 of 40
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Legolas' acrobatic adventures tend generate strong feelings, either good or bad. What did you think about this one? Cool? Ridiculous? Both?
I enjoyed them  I completely understand why PJ needed them as well as drinking games or, sometimes, silly jokes. It's the geenral public, the master and commander of all film makers. And I did my best to enjoy them without looking too close or too critically. Same with this scene - cool, action like, adventurous.
As I mentioned above, I chose this shot because of the cinematography - the wide shot and exapanse of the Pelennor Fields and the mountains in the background. We also see the Dead Army redeeming itself down on the ground below. Do you like the composition of this shot? Why or why not?
The shot is absolutely stunning. It reminds me of rembrandt paintings - "the master of light" he was called. I'm quite sure his works were someone's favorites because this scene (and not only) are almost copies of the color palettes and light effects he painted. I'm trying to remember now the exact painting I'm recalling when watching this, I just can't come up with the title  In fact, I've always thought Rembrandt and Tolkien shared the same visions. I'm attaching a painting which is my almost ideal vision of Fangorn, painted by Rembrandt as well as a few other works of his to illustrate the light mastering.
Did you like the look of the Haradrim soldiers (clothes, painted faces, head scarves)?
Very much so. The costumes and design were absolutely great in general! One of the most deserved Oscars, IMHO.
Bonus question: what the heck is that thing burning on the field on the left-hand side of the image? Bonus points to whoever can give a likely answer.
After batik's answer all is said
Thanks for leading, Nuradar! Great job!
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on December 15 on the Main board
I believe
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Elberbeth
Tol Eressea
Dec 20 2008, 3:59am
Post #16 of 40
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Mumak is the singular, and mumakil plural. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
"There are some things that it is better to begin than to refuse, even though the end may be dark."
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Dec 20 2008, 4:17am
Post #17 of 40
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Hmm, the paintings are not attached but here is another attempt
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Of course, reducing the size and the poor quality don't do any justice to this marvelous paintings but they can be found on Internet through Google. However, it strikes me what resemblance there is (at least with my vision) to some of Tolkien's locations. The atmosphere mainly.
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on December 15 on the Main board
I believe
(This post was edited by simplyaven on Dec 20 2008, 4:19am)
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frederica bolger
Lorien
Dec 20 2008, 11:36am
Post #18 of 40
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1. I never had a big problem with 'Leggy moments'; my friend really hates them. He defies gravity in the book as well (walking lightly on snow, running up the branches of the tree in Lorien); and so they found some fine Douglas Fairbanks things to do for him. So there's one for the kids, whatever age they are, and big kid PJ himself.
2. They are going for the classic: a third foreground, a third main action, a third background. It works, but because it's so quick! Once you freeze it, you see all the gremlins... like Leggy's back leg being much longer than the front one!
3. Well, someone said in the commentary that the head scarves are introduced so that they don't look too human... they look a bit Bedouin, as opposed to the more South Sea Island looking mumak drivers... not too bad though, not like the Easterlings with their ridiculous pot helmets.
4. I think the problem with the Ghost Army (other than that they should never have been taken past Harlond) is that they are not substantial; anything but Aragorn's sword goes right through them. So they can't beat people down with real fists or maces, and the solution is for them to be like a giant wind, or a shockwave that just flattens things. But IMO the green swirly effect is a mistake.
Bonus: I think it's one of the orc fires. They have them at regular intervals, to light flaming missiles; you can see the smoke off the next one behind the Harad's back.
Rain may fall and wind may blow
And many miles be still to go
But under a tall tree I will lie
And watch the clouds go sailing by.
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Loresilme
Valinor
Dec 21 2008, 1:52am
Post #19 of 40
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*Denethor* ! oh my batik, that's classic. Now I am always going to think of that when I see it!!
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Loresilme
Valinor
Dec 21 2008, 2:07am
Post #20 of 40
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Any discussion of Legolas' 'acrobatic adventures' (good way to put it Nuradar!) has to include a compliment to Orlando for being able to pull them off. Not only did he have to make it look possible, he (being an Elf) had to make it look graceful and elegant too. I thought he performed it perfectly - CGI or no, it still comes down to the actor being able to look physically believable doing all those stunts. My compliments to Mr. Bloom  .
Probably a few more close ups of the Dead Army dispensing with the enemies, would have been good. The first time I heard the term 'green scrubbing bubbles', was of course, here on dear TORn  , and it was so unfortunately on-target I've had a hard time forgetting it ever since...lol! Some individual moments of the dead army guys in action would have broken up that green tide effect.
Bonus question: what the heck is that thing burning on the field on the left-hand side of the image? Bonus points to whoever can give a likely answer.
To anyone who may be reading this, please be sure to look at batik's answer to this question - it's priceless .
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Dec 21 2008, 3:46am
Post #22 of 40
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I'm a great admirer of Rembrandt and when I read Tolkien, I almost always picture in my mind one of Rembrandt's paintings! There are many more, I just had to choose for this post and it was a very hard choice! There is one which I always connect with the surviving Numenoreans leaving the island (Storm or Storm in the sea). And many, many more which are very close to my idea of Tolkien's world.
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on December 15 on the Main board
I believe
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weaver
Half-elven
Dec 21 2008, 4:33am
Post #23 of 40
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William Turner also comes to mind...
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The painter, of course -- not Orlando as a pirate!
He also does some great work with light and landscapes -- here's a link to a battlefield shot that seems to fit this discussion:
http://www.j-m-w-turner.co.uk/turner-waterloo.htm
I am amazed at how painters like Rembrandt, Turner and others can capture light like this!
Weaver
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sador
Half-elven
Dec 21 2008, 6:17am
Post #24 of 40
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Once weaver mentioned Turner, I could hardly help myself from joining in...
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But that's not really a part of the answer.
Legolas' acrobatic adventures tend generate strong feelings, either good or bad. What did you think about this one? Cool? Ridiculous? Both?
I think the 'ridiculously cool' answer summed it up.
But I was never one for this kind of stuff, so I sort of regarded it a bit of 'comic relief' - and unlike the other battle scenes, there wasn't even any martial technique to be interested in.
As I mentioned above, I chose this shot because of the cinematography - the wide shot and exapanse of the Pelennor Fields and the mountains in the background. We also see the Dead Army redeeming itself down on the ground below. Do you like the composition of this shot? Why or why not?
Yes, the composition is very nice. Not that I had ever noticed it until you mentioned it.
And by the way - I must reiterate that had the Wiki been at the Pelennor when the Army of the Dead arrived - I very much doubt the would still obey Aragorn.
Did you like the look of the Haradrim soldiers (clothes, painted faces, head scarves)?
It might have been a way to minimise the racism charges?
Bonus question: what the heck is that thing burning on the field on the left-hand side of the image? Bonus points to whoever can give a likely answer.
I agree - the bonus points go to batik. Not that it makes any physical sense, but it is the kind of private joke PJ and crew were likely to make.
"I had so much to do here; and packing is such a bother" - Bilbo
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weaver
Half-elven
Dec 21 2008, 3:05pm
Post #25 of 40
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two thoughts on your thoughts...
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Why do you think the Army of the Dead would follow the Witch King and not Aragorn? They were tied to Aragorn by their vow -- what would have been the Witch King's trump card over that?
(Well, they could always break it again, I suppose...)
I have a feeling the answer is pretty obvious but I have "holiday brain", so would appreciate your help!
Also, you are right on the "racism" observation on the Harradrim -- the original style was too close to stereotypes of black African tribes, etc. Phillipa Boyens nixed it, I believe -- the details are in the ROTK EE commentaries, IIRC.
Oh, and glad William Turner helped to turn you out for this discussion -- was it the painter or the pirate that got you?
Weaver
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