|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
visualweasel
Rohan
Dec 17 2008, 8:39pm
Post #1 of 12
(1642 views)
Shortcut
|
"Mythopoeia" in the OED?
|
Can't Post
|
|
Anyone who owns (or has access to) a copy, can you tell me whether there is an entry for "mythopoeia", and if so, what is the earliest attested usage they give? Thanks!
Jason Fisher Lingwë - Musings of a Fish The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 “On Fairy-stories” discussion 2008 – “Origins” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
|
|
|
NottaSackville
Valinor
Dec 17 2008, 8:50pm
Post #2 of 12
(718 views)
Shortcut
|
I don't have the OED, but Google turned up this OED reference
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
5 The OED cites an example from 1927. The adjective “mythopoeic“ is first attested in 1846. More significantly, there is an example from 1875 from the philologist Sayce, in The Principles of Comparative Philology, a publication that Tolkien is more than likely to have read. From this page
|
|
|
visualweasel
Rohan
Dec 17 2008, 8:53pm
Post #3 of 12
(702 views)
Shortcut
|
Jason Fisher Lingwë - Musings of a Fish The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 “On Fairy-stories” discussion 2008 – “Origins” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Dec 17 2008, 9:13pm
Post #4 of 12
(717 views)
Shortcut
|
Yes: first appearance in 1927, with roots to 1846.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Here's the listing for "mythopoeia", defined as "The creation of a myth or myths."
1927 Cambridge Hist. Jrnl. 2 102 Even Solon, with every possible advantage, does not escape the new learned mythopoeia or unscrupulous literary fiction of the third and second centuries. 1959 H. B LOOM Shelley's Mythmaking i. 8, I do not claim that all of Shelley's major and mature poems are mythopoeic, especially in the precise and narrow sense of mythopoeia that I insist upon here. 1970 Listener 30 July 154/2 Science is not immune to mythopoeia. 1986 Library Mar. 104 ‘Darkness echoing’: reflections on the return of mythopoeia in some recent poems. 1997 New Yorker 22 Sept. 106/1 As she stood in Jacobs' hallway..she experienced one of those moments much celebrated in fashion-industry mythopoeia of mysterious but incontrovertible revelation. And the etymology directs readers to the "mythopoesis" entry:
1882 C.F. KEARY Outl. Primitive Belief 320 (note) It is in keeping with the principles of mythopoesis that Calypso's land..should be in the midst of the sea. 1936 Speculum 11 42 A good dog was doubtless as important and valuable as was a destrier..; and it was probably inevitable that mythopoiesis should enhance the virtues of the one as of the other. 1949 Yale French Stud. No. 4. 35 Mature and responsible artists experience an irresistible pull towards mythopoesis. 1998 N.Y. Times 5 Apr. II. 38/3 Warren Leight's play ‘Sideman’,..doesn't have any mythopoesis to support: it's about a fictional (but believable), obscure trumpet player in the 1950's named Gene. And that one directs readers to the "mythopoeic" entry:
1846 G. GROTE Hist. Greece I. I. xvi. 472 The mythopic fertility of the Greeks. 1874 A.H. SAYCE Princ. Compar. Philol. ix. 376 The mythop ic age is the period of primitive unconscious childhood and barbarism. 1909 Glasgow Herald 8 Jan. 6/4 Quite unconsciously to himself the mythopoeic, dramatising faculties set to work. 1947 D. S TAUFFER in Eng. Inst. Ess. 1947 (1948) 33 His language here approximates Wordsworth at his most philosophically mythopoeic. 1993 Daily Tel. 2 Jan. 16/6 These entries are never less than full, but vary in length..: those concerning mythopoeic fish, such as the carp, conger or pike, are naturally more extensive and complex. Defined as an adjective used to describe something "That creates or gives rise to a myth or myths; of, related to, or characterized by the creation of myths". The etymology says it is a direct appropriation of the Hellenistic Greek word, plus the suffix "ic".
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009! Join us Dec. 15-21 for "Many Partings". +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= How to find old Reading Room discussions.
|
|
|
visualweasel
Rohan
Dec 17 2008, 9:26pm
Post #5 of 12
(716 views)
Shortcut
|
Thanks! And why was I curious?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Northrop Frye uses both mythopoeia and mythopoeic (but not mythopoesis) in Anatomy of Criticism. That was first published in 1957, so it beats Bloom for the use of the noun. I had been wondering just where Frye fit into the known history of the word. Much obliged for the details.
Jason Fisher Lingwë - Musings of a Fish The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 “On Fairy-stories” discussion 2008 – “Origins” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Dec 17 2008, 9:52pm
Post #6 of 12
(725 views)
Shortcut
|
J.R.R. Tolkien and Leonard Cohen?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
What do people here make of Weinreich's article? I think he could say much more about Tolkien's attitudes toward science.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009! Join us Dec. 15-21 for "Many Partings". +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= How to find old Reading Room discussions.
|
|
|
visualweasel
Rohan
Dec 19 2008, 5:57pm
Post #8 of 12
(679 views)
Shortcut
|
And thanks for sharing the link. I always welcome comments and feedback. Come one, come all.
Jason Fisher Lingwë - Musings of a Fish The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 “On Fairy-stories” discussion 2008 – “Origins” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
|
|
|
Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Dec 20 2008, 12:55am
Post #9 of 12
(672 views)
Shortcut
|
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Dec 21 2008, 12:55am
Post #10 of 12
(761 views)
Shortcut
|
"The popular Anglicized rifacimento of Wagner, Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings"...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
..."does not have quite this theological dimension, but it uses the same renounced quest theme." One of many little nuggets in the 4,500-word text dump by Robert Denham to your blog, apparently of everything Northrop Frye ever wrote about J.R.R. Tolkien. Here's one more that caught my eye:
Well, I did read The Worm Ouroboros, & am very glad I did. It knocks the pins out from under Tolkien as far as originality goes. Its date is 1926: Tolkien has taken his [E.R. Eddison’s] war-of-light-and-darkness theme, his return-of-the-king theme, his elves-orcs etc. characterization theme (though he improves it a good deal), his mock-chronological apparatus, all straight from the earlier book. Tolkien is more intelligent, I think: there’s a silly streak in Eddison, but there’s a genuine imaginative focus that I kept missing in Tolkien. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009! Join us Dec. 15-21 for "Many Partings". +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= How to find old Reading Room discussions.
|
|
|
squire
Half-elven
Dec 21 2008, 4:35am
Post #11 of 12
(678 views)
Shortcut
|
"a genuine imaginative focus that I kept missing in Tolkien"
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I wonder what Frye means - if, as I understand your post, Frye is the author of these words. The best guess I have is that, perhaps, Eddison was not an intellectual. Professor Tolkien, as we know, worked hard to make his mythology congruent with many existing mythologies. One glory of The Lord of the Rings, for those in the know, is just how much of it evokes real-world precedents from ancient and medieval history, literature, and folklore. Frye, I guess, would be one of those who would get some or most of Tolkien's clever references. If so, then he might compare Tolkien's "intellectuality" unfavorably to Eddison's imagination. That is, suppose that Eddison didn't actually know much medieval source material, but rather understood the "flavor" of it. Perhaps Eddison was forced to wing the "details" of his fantasy epic, and so exercised his imagination in ways that Tolkien would never have dreamed of. Although I would say that Tolkien was a master of imaginative writing, perhaps he is vulnerable to the charge of being highly imaginative only within certain bounds of reality, plausibility, and mythological precedent. I guess I'd have to read Eddison before going farther with this!
squire online: RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'. Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!" squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
|
|
|
visualweasel
Rohan
Dec 21 2008, 3:54pm
Post #12 of 12
(775 views)
Shortcut
|
I'm still awed by Denham's "comment" ...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
And still digesting it, probably for quite some time to come. And Gill has left another (shorter) reply now too. I'm always surprised by which posts generate the most discussion. To think that my little ol’ blog would have attracted such thoughtful and thorough responses from not just one, but two editors of the Complete Works of Northrop Frye! To Squire: Perhaps Eddison was forced to wing the "details" of his fantasy epic, and so exercised his imagination in ways that Tolkien would never have dreamed of. Yes, but isn't the reverse true as well? Doesn't it take a certain (different) kind of imagination to transform, consistently, existing mythological and literary precedents in ways both novel and yet recognizable (with effort)? Or is not so much imaginative as "intellectual" (your word)? Is there really a difference between those? And if so, what exactly is that difference? You may be onto something, but like you, I don't have any first-hand experience with Eddison to judge.
Jason Fisher Lingwë - Musings of a Fish The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 “On Fairy-stories” discussion 2008 – “Origins” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
|
|
|
|
|