|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
a.s.
Valinor
Dec 7 2008, 5:11pm
Post #1 of 24
(2497 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The Field of Cormallen #6: The Rest of the Story
|
Can't Post
|
|
We have reached and passed the eucatastrophe of the Fairy-story that is LOTR. As others have pointed out, we are now going to get a series of "the rest of the story" extensions; little mini-wrap-ups, as it were.
First, we will see our two heroes dressed as princes, with an interesting comment by Frodo:
Frodo and Sam were led apart and brought to a tent, and there their old raiment was taken off, but folded and set aside with honour; and clean linen was given to them. Then Gandalf came and in his arms, to the wonder of Frodo, he bore the sword and the elven-cloak and the mithril-coat that had been taken from him in Mordor. For Sam he brought a coat of gilded mail, and his elven-cloak all healed of the soils and hurts that it had suffered; and then he laid before them two swords.
"I do not wish for any sword," said Frodo.
"Tonight at least you should wear one," said Gandalf.
1) Thoughts on Frodo's immediate response to seeing a sword brought for him?
Gandalf serves as their esquire, and helps them into their knightly raiment, and puts circlets of silver upon their heads. They are led into the the feast and seated with the kings and princes and "chief captains", at the King's table--along with Gimli and Legolas.
But when, after the Standing Silence, wine was brought there came in two esquires to serve the kings; or so they seemed to be: one was clad in the silver and sable of the Guards of Minas Tirith, and the other in white and green. But Sam wondered what such young boys were doing in an army of mighty men. Then suddenly as they drew near and he could see them plainly, he exclaimed:
"Why, look Mr. Frodo! Look here! Well, if it isn't Pippin. Mr. Peregrin Took I should say, and Mr. Merry! How they have grown! Bless me! But I can see there's more tales to tell than ours."
"There are indeed," said Pippin turning towards him. "And we'll begin telling them, as soon as this feast is ended. In the meantime you can try Gandalf. He's not so close as he used to be, though he laughs now more than he talks. For the present Merry and I are busy. We are knights of the City and of the Mark, as I hope you observe."
2) Hammond & Scull in LOTR Companion note that the words "after the Standing Silence" were added to the text in the second edition (1965). Comments on why Tolkien added these words here, ten years after publication?
3) Do Sam and Pippin seemed changed at all, judging by their comments? When we last saw the four hobbits together, was Sam refering to Pip as "Mr"?
4) Why does Tolkien include the very English-sounding "Bless me" here? Why would hobbits use that terminology?
After supper, the friend reunite and talk late into the night. They catch up on all that has happened since they parted, although Sam seems to have some trouble taking it all in:
But amidst all these wonders he returned always to his astonishment at the size of Merry and Pippin; and he made them stand back to back with Frodo and himself. He scratched his head. "Can't understand it at your age!" he said. "But there it is: you're three inches taller than you ought to he, or I'm a dwarf."
"That you certainly are not," said Gimli. "But what did I say? Mortals cannot go drinking ent-draughts and expect no more to come of them than of a pot of beer."
"Ent-draughts?" said Sam. "There you go about Ents again; but what they are beats me. Why, it will take weeks before we get all these things sized up!"
5) Somehow, this return to a very slow-witted Sam irritates me. Does it strike anyone else as a false return to the old, parochial, lower class Sam of old, after all his adventures and trauma and suffering and his key role in the saving of ME--not to mention the circlet of silver that has been set on his head? Or is this a natural course of events, this turning back to old, comfortable roles?
Sam and Frodo are sent to bed (along with the recovering Merry and Gimli) by Gandalf, to further their healing. Legolas comments:
"And I," said Legolas, "shall walk in the woods of this fair land, which is rest enough. In days to come, if my Elven-lord allows, some of our folk shall remove hither; and when we come it shall be blessed, for a while. For a while: a month, a life, a hundred years of Men. But Anduin is near, and Anduin leads down to the Sea. To the Sea!
To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying,
The wind is blowing, and the white foam is flying.
West, west away, the round sun is falling.
Grey ship, grey ship, do you hear them calling.
The voices of my people that have gone before me?
I will leave, I will leave the woods that bore me;
For our days are ending and our years failing.
I will pass the wide waters lonely sailing.
Long are the waves on the Last Shore falling,
Sweet are the voices in the Lost Isle calling,
In Eressëa, in Elvenhome that no man can discover,
Where the leaves fall not: land of my people for ever!
And so singing Legolas went away down the hill.
6) Comments on Legolas' song here? Why did Tolkien include this verse here? Is it a "sum up" of the plight of the Elves, now that the Ring has been destroyed? Is it a pre-figuring of what is to come? Or a hint of Frodo's future?
All rest and find comfort in Ithilien, while the final warriors come back: those who have been away subduing "remnants" of the Southrons and Easterlings, and destroying fortresses in "the north" of Mordor. But finally, they all gather together to return to Minis Tirith, floating down the Anduin until they come to the Pelennor:
And there in the midst of the fields they set up their pavilions and awaited the morning; for it was the Eve of May, and the King would enter his gates with the rising of the Sun.
7) Comments on the King entering with the Rising of the Sun? Is the date of May 1 important?
8) Any other comments on this chapter?
Thanks for all your comments this week.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Some say once you're gone, you're gone forever, and some say you're gonna come back.
Some say you'll rest in the arms of the Savior, if sinful ways you lack.
Some say that they're coming back in a garden: bunch of carrots and little sweet peas.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.
Iris DeMent
Call Her Emily
|
|
|
batik
Tol Eressea
Dec 8 2008, 12:59am
Post #2 of 24
(2117 views)
Shortcut
|
"I do not wish for any sword," said Frodo.
"Tonight at least you should wear one," said Gandalf.
Thoughts on Frodo's immediate response to seeing a sword brought for him?
Well now, he's never really been the sword-wearing sort has he?
Hammond & Scull in LOTR Companion note that the words "after the Standing Silence" were added to the text in the second edition (1965). Comments on why Tolkien added these words here, ten years after publication?
Someone brought to his attention that the Standing Silence was mentioned in "The Window on the West"?
Do Sam and Pippin seemed changed at all, judging by their comments?
Not so much--but we know they have experienced events that have added to their character. It's nice, I think, hearing these two slip back into their natural ways of conversing.
When we last saw the four hobbits together, was Sam refering to Pip as "Mr"?
Hmm...he called him "sir" but if he called him "Mr." I missed it. Maybe, here, Sam is calling attention to stature rather than status.
Why does Tolkien include the very English-sounding "Bless me" here? Why would hobbits use that terminology?
Ah, a 2 for 1---quick skim of FotR to look for "Mr." resulted in seeing "O blessed Meridoc!" (and a chance to read the bath song, again!) along with Gandalf's "bless my beard!" and Sam's "Lor bless you, Gandalf, sir!" and his "Lor bless me, sir, but I do love tales of that sort." Examples aren't opinions/answers but that's what I've got!
Somehow, this return to a very slow-witted Sam irritates me. Does it strike anyone else as a false return to the old, parochial, lower class Sam of old, after all his adventures and trauma and suffering and his key role in the saving of ME--not to mention the circlet of silver that has been set on his head? Or is this a natural course of events, this turning back to old, comfortable roles?
No, I don't think it's false but natural. Here's Sam-- probably still reeling from all that happened in Mordor, not too mention a lengthy snooze--then he's suddenly in this over-the-top social situation, surrounded by "lords and knights and men of valour" and all those others and he's being praised with great praise! No surprise that he sticks with being good ole Sam. Plus it may a comfort Pippin and Merry to hear him speak this way.
Comments on Legolas' song here? Why did Tolkien include this verse here? Is it a "sum up" of the plight of the Elves, now that the Ring has been destroyed? Is it a pre-figuring of what is to come? Or a hint of Frodo's future?
All of the above but mainly a "pre-figuring". Maybe this is Tolkien's way of letting the reader know that even the Elves that have seemingly been content to reside in Middle-earth and even form close alliances with Men (like Legolas) are gong to depart-the end point is on the horizon.
|
|
|
Dreamdeer
Valinor
Dec 8 2008, 3:24am
Post #3 of 24
(2125 views)
Shortcut
|
Sam didn't strike me as dull-witted in this scene at all. I get the impression that he's speaking for both him and Frodo, who must find all of these changes and strange references equally confusing. Since Frodo never completely recovered--within Middle Earth--from what happened to him, I'm not surprised that he's letting Sam do most of the talking this soon after having the Ring wrenched from him.
As for "Mr. Peregrin Took, I should say", that struck me as the sort of comment one makes when you see someone that you had known as a child now all grown up. Pippin technically still is a minor, here. His age is the equivalent of 18, which nowadays is considered a legal adult, at least in the United States, but not back then. One was, however, still old enough to become a soldier at that age, and many a soldier began WWI or WWII regarded as a child and ended it regarded as an adult.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
|
|
|
Curious
Half-elven
Dec 8 2008, 5:13pm
Post #4 of 24
(2119 views)
Shortcut
|
We have reached and passed the eucatastrophe of the Fairy-story that is LOTR. As others have pointed out, we are now going to get a series of "the rest of the story" extensions; little mini-wrap-ups, as it were.
I'm not sure I agree with your premise. Aragorn's coronation and wedding are, arguably, more than a "mini-wrap-up." They are arguably the peak moment of the joyous turn, which continues to build in joy from the Eagles' rescue through the wedding. Only then do we get the long and bittersweet denouement, full of good-byes.
1) Thoughts on Frodo's immediate response to seeing a sword brought for him?
I'm sure he remembers his statement in Mordor that he would "bear no weapon, foul or fair." Although Frodo didn't swear or take an oath, that sounded like a promise or vow that would hold him even if, beyond all his expectations, he survived his quest. And it does hold him in the Scouring of the Shire.
I suppose if it is okay with Gandalf, the representative of the Valar, for Frodo to simply wear a sheathed sword for ceremonial purposes, that excuses any breach. But it is the beginning of Frodo's return to the world of weapons and fighting, which culminates in the Scouring of the Shire. And perhaps these weapons, four or fair, help reawaken Frodo's wounds. Which is why, in the end, he must leave Middle-earth for a better place.
By the way, Frodo was hardly a pacifist in FotR, where he wounded the Barrow-wight and a troll, and twice raised his sword against the Witch-king himself. So this newfound pacifism signals a transformation, and is the first hint that Frodo may not be able to return to his old life.
2) Hammond & Scull in LOTR Companion note that the words "after the Standing Silence" were added to the text in the second edition (1965). Comments on why Tolkien added these words here, ten years after publication?
Apparently he forgot to account for Merry and Pippin at the ceremonies. Plus, it was fun. Tolkien could never resist tinkering with an old story when given the opportunity to do so.
3) Do Sam and Pippin seemed changed at all, judging by their comments? When we last saw the four hobbits together, was Sam refering to Pip as "Mr"?
This reminds me of Farmer Maggot's greeting to Pippin back in the Shire, when he corrected himself. I think Farmer Maggot and Sam both think of Pippin as an irresponsible tween, and have to remind themselves to treat him as an adult, and as the heir to the Thane, at that. Merry is older and more responsible and gets instant respect. None of the hobbits have to remind themselves that Merry is an adult and the heir to the Master of Buckland. Frodo doesn't have the same issues because both Merry and Pippin are cousins, and younger cousins at that. They will always be just Merry and Pippin to him.
Of course in this case Pippin looks particularly grown up, in his formal suit of armor and all. It's like seeing a teenager in a tailored tuxedo -- a good one, not the rental ones worn at prom. But Sam can't resist being a bit bemused to see Pippin, in particular, in such a formal outfit. Again, it's not as much of a stretch with Merry.
4) Why does Tolkien include the very English-sounding "Bless me" here? Why would hobbits use that terminology?
You caught one of Tolkien's anachronisms. From whom is Sam asking a blessing? But Sam is even more anachronistic when he says "Lor bless me" back in the Shire. Sam uses "bless me" several times in LotR, I think to indicate that he comes from a different class than the other habits. Butterbur uses the expression too. It's a mild exclamation, more common, perhaps, among the working class. But Bilbo uses the expression once as well.
Of course, it may have additional power in Middle-earth. For Sam, Butterbur, and Bilbo are all, undoubtedly, blessed by Someone.
The anachronism serves a purpose. The hobbits -- and Sam perhaps most of all -- represent Tolkien's readers, who in Tolkien's day, at least, might very well say "bless me" under such circumstances.
A long time ago on the old boards I compiled a list of the "swear words" in LotR, most of them (outside of the orcish) pretty mild. There are a surprisingly large number of them. If anyone can reproduce it, I would be grateful.
5) Somehow, this return to a very slow-witted Sam irritates me. Does it strike anyone else as a false return to the old, parochial, lower class Sam of old, after all his adventures and trauma and suffering and his key role in the saving of ME--not to mention the circlet of silver that has been set on his head? Or is this a natural course of events, this turning back to old, comfortable roles?
Is Sam slow witted because he has trouble comprehending ent-draughts and ents? Well, perhaps he does represent the "ordinary" hobbit among all these high and mighty folk. And Tolkien's humor does come at his expense. But later in the book we will see similar reactions from Bilbo and Butterbur and Rosie and pretty much everyone who wasn't on the adventures and can't keep all the adventures straight. And Sam could tell Pippin and Merry a thing or two, if it hadn't already been told in song. This particular passage doesn't make me uncomfortable.
By the way, how was that song about Frodo and Sam composed if Frodo and Sam were unconscious for two weeks? Apparently someone recovered everything they dropped along the way, including orc rags -- how did they track everything down, or know where they had been? Did they talk in their sleep? Did Gandalf read their minds? Tolkien doesn't provide an answer, so I'm just asking.
6) Comments on Legolas' song here? Why did Tolkien include this verse here? Is it a "sum up" of the plight of the Elves, now that the Ring has been destroyed? Is it a pre-figuring of what is to come? Or a hint of Frodo's future?
This is a touch of melancholy in such a joyous time, no? At least for the people left behind. Nice knowing you, but I must be going. It foreshadows the many good-byes to come.
7) Comments on the King entering with the Rising of the Sun? Is the date of May 1 important?
May Day comes half way between the spring equinox and the summer solstice, and in northern climes is the traditional beginning of summer. It was a pagan holiday before Christianity came to those northern climes, and afterwards became a Christianized holiday in many European countries.
|
|
|
Dreamdeer
Valinor
Dec 8 2008, 9:18pm
Post #5 of 24
(2093 views)
Shortcut
|
Back in Rivendell, Gandalf said, "You have talked long in your sleep, Frodo. And it has not been hard for me to read your mind and memory." I daresay that what held true then held true now. Furthermore, Gandalf had two minds to read, to compare and corroborate each other's perspectives.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
|
|
|
Dreamdeer
Valinor
Dec 8 2008, 9:41pm
Post #6 of 24
(2093 views)
Shortcut
|
Catholics today celebrate May Day in honor of Mary. Many communities follow a custom of crowning a statue of Mary with a wreath of flowers on this day, and some put such a statue atop the Maypole.
However, a Pagan holiday in the British Isles preceded it, called Beltane. Originally the occasion celebrated fertility and was considered ideal for marriages. To this day I have heard modern Wiccans joke or sing about "baby-making at Beltane." I've been told that couples used to take to the fields for connubial activities, "to teach the crops to grow." Tolkien might have wished to provide a myth to explain this association (and also firmly anchor it to matrimony!) by having it coincide first with the wedding of Arwen and Elessar, and later with the wedding of Samwise and Rose.
Beltane observations in various forms, interestingly, survived into the earliest twentieth century in the United Kingdom, with or without Christian rationalization. Generally these had taken on a chaste expression, involving bonfires, windows bedecked with flowering boughs decorated with ribbons and colored eggshells, etc. One could still, however trace survivals of the fertility-rite within them, especially since these activities overlapped the rise of Freudian psychology. With his interest in folklore, Tolkien could not help but notice.
Regarding the sword, I think it has to do with Frodo's horror of the temptations to wield power over others. I think Frodo associates swords with domination--to force others to do your will, to conquer them, ultimately to exert the absolute and irrevocable power of taking a life.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
|
|
|
a.s.
Valinor
Dec 9 2008, 1:53am
Post #8 of 24
(2113 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Well, you're right. I'm Frodo-centric
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
As others have pointed out, we are now going to get a series of "the rest of the story" extensions; little mini-wrap-ups, as it were.
I'm not sure I agree with your premise. Aragorn's coronation and wedding are, arguably, more than a "mini-wrap-up." They are arguably the peak moment of the joyous turn, which continues to build in joy from the Eagles' rescue through the wedding. Only then do we get the long and bittersweet denouement, full of good-byes.
Yes, I believe I am wrong. The coronation is indeed not a "rest of the story" summing up; it's actually the point of the title of the Book, after all.
My Frodocentricity is showing.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Some say once you're gone, you're gone forever, and some say you're gonna come back.
Some say you'll rest in the arms of the Savior, if sinful ways you lack.
Some say that they're coming back in a garden: bunch of carrots and little sweet peas.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.
Iris DeMent
Call Her Emily
|
|
|
Curious
Half-elven
Dec 9 2008, 4:16am
Post #9 of 24
(2072 views)
Shortcut
|
if you insist on admitting you are wrong? I suppose now I have to argue with myself!
After all, Tolkien himself said this is not the saga of Aragorn, which is why we only hear about the Paths of the Dead in retrospect, and the story of Arwen and Aragorn gets shunted to Appendix A. And the king has already returned. The Coronation is a mere formality, arguably a mini-wrap-up, as it were.
I'm not sure I really believe that, but there is an argument for being Frodo-centric.
|
|
|
batik
Tol Eressea
Dec 9 2008, 4:33am
Post #10 of 24
(2092 views)
Shortcut
|
don't be turning off the lights and all that yet  --still 5 chapters to go! And I may need to borrow that "long and bittersweet denouement" comment for "Many Partings".
|
|
|
a.s.
Valinor
Dec 9 2008, 12:09pm
Post #11 of 24
(2085 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Oh, I'm sure we'll find more stuff to argue about
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I mean, I'd hate to mess with tradition.
~~grin~~
Your comment just made me reconsider my own, and on reflection, I have to admit that the story of Aragorn's coronation isn't simply a little "summing up", or whatever we want to call the events that happen after the fall of Mordor, such as The Scouring and the departure for Valinor, etc. It's part of the point of the story, I think, in a way that Scouring isn't.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Some say once you're gone, you're gone forever, and some say you're gonna come back.
Some say you'll rest in the arms of the Savior, if sinful ways you lack.
Some say that they're coming back in a garden: bunch of carrots and little sweet peas.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.
Iris DeMent
Call Her Emily
|
|
|
Curious
Half-elven
Dec 9 2008, 12:48pm
Post #12 of 24
(2068 views)
Shortcut
|
Is the Scouring really a little "summing up"? I agree that it falls outside the fairy tale proper, which is supposed to end with the eucatastrophe. But I think Tolkien took the Scouring very seriously indeed, and planned for it from the beginning of the book.
In "On Fairy-stories" Tolkien set out to show that fairy-stories are useful, and even heroic, or the source of heroism in the Primary World. The Scouring puts that thesis to the test, for Tolkien shows how our hobbit heroes have been transformed by their time in Faerie, and how that prepares them for a crisis that has little to do with magic or elves or even wizards -- for at this point Saruman has more in common with Primary World politicians than Secondary World istari. I agree with you that the fairy tale proper ends well before the Scouring -- but that makes the Scouring more interesting to me, not less, for Tolkien departs from his own model of the ideal fairy story by incorporating it into his story.
And all the good-byes that come before and after the Scouring are also important, I think, precisely because they do not follow the formula Tolkien recommended in "On Fairy-stories." Tolkien does not end the tale with "and they all lived happily ever after" or something similar, even though he claimed that is the way to end a fairy-story. Why not? That, I think, is the question we must answer over the next few chapters. Why did Tolkien depart from his own formula?
|
|
|
Curious
Half-elven
Dec 9 2008, 12:51pm
Post #13 of 24
(2074 views)
Shortcut
|
As I state below, in some ways the upcoming chapters are the most interesting. They certainly are the most unexpected. Why the long, long good-bye? And why, above all, the perverse twist separating Frodo and Sam, essentially forever?
|
|
|
a.s.
Valinor
Dec 11 2008, 12:53am
Post #14 of 24
(2054 views)
Shortcut
|
Is the Scouring really a little "summing up"? I agree that it falls outside the fairy tale proper, which is supposed to end with the eucatastrophe. But I think Tolkien took the Scouring very seriously indeed, and planned for it from the beginning of the book.
Well, I don't know that Scouring is entirely and only a "summing up". I agree that far.
But viewed against the main action of the story, once Aragorn is crowned and married/married and crowned, the rest of the book is a winding down and taking care of details. Filling the reader in on the "meanwhile, back at the ranch" rest of the story. Things could have ended at any time. Don't get me wrong, I am a fan and am charmed entirely by the long, slow ending of LOTR.
But it's still a long, slow ending.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Some say once you're gone, you're gone forever, and some say you're gonna come back.
Some say you'll rest in the arms of the Savior, if sinful ways you lack.
Some say that they're coming back in a garden: bunch of carrots and little sweet peas.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.
Iris DeMent
Call Her Emily
|
|
|
Dreamdeer
Valinor
Dec 11 2008, 8:55pm
Post #15 of 24
(2036 views)
Shortcut
|
|
There and Back Again, VS Off into the Sunset
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Campbell's "Way of the Hero" notes that in classic folklore the hero goes out a naif, goes through various adventures that change him (skipping the list of all of these steps) and comes home far greater in stature, fit to take on a new level of responsibility. "The Scouring of the Shire" goes into more detail than "And they all lived happily ever after", but it's still the same ending, only spelled out more graphically. The hobbits go home and prove that they have become capable of taking care of business. Where before Frodo set out with a couple of immature, spoiled cousins and a gardener, he returns with a knight of Gondor, a knight of Rohan, and a hero of ballads, destined each in turn to become The Took, The Master of Buckland, and the Mayor of the Shire.
In contrast, the modern (specifically American) story more often involves a stranger riding into town with skills gained offstage, sets everybody to rights, and rides off into the sunset. This role model has, I believe, negatively impacted our foreign policies, as well as given people unreasonable expectations of themselves and others. It's an unbalanced picture, and an uprooted one, because the stranger never does seem to ride home, never does put his own community to rights, so that there's something irresponsible about his heroism.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
|
|
|
Curious
Half-elven
Dec 11 2008, 10:03pm
Post #16 of 24
(2073 views)
Shortcut
|
|
It's all the fault of the Lone Ranger and Clint Eastwood ...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
But what about all the fairy stories where the hero or heroine doesn't come home, but instead finds fame and fortune in another land, often marrying the prince or princess? To me that seems much more typical than coming back home again.
At any rate, I wasn't asking why Tolkien departs from the typical fairy-tale plot, whatever that may be, but why he departs from the fairy-tale plot Tolkien himself recommends in "On Fairy-stories." Why doesn't Tolkien give us the eucatastrophe, and then "and they all lived happily ever after," or something to that effect?
Why, in particular, must Frodo and Sam separate? Even if they both live happy lives, it is sad to learn that they must live them in different worlds. But it isn't just Frodo who is departing or fading or diminishing, but the elves and ents and dwarves and Gandalf, too. Rivendell and Lothlorien are no more. The Age of Faerie is ending, the Age of Man has begun. Even though there is much to be happy about, that's really sad.
(This post was edited by Curious on Dec 11 2008, 10:05pm)
|
|
|
batik
Tol Eressea
Dec 12 2008, 2:58am
Post #17 of 24
(2019 views)
Shortcut
|
|
don't know why but I am glad...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
But what about all the fairy stories where the hero or heroine doesn't come home, but instead finds fame and fortune in another land, often marrying the prince or princess? To me that seems much more typical than coming back home again.
At any rate, I wasn't asking why Tolkien departs from the typical fairy-tale plot, whatever that may be, but why he departs from the fairy-tale plot Tolkien himself recommends in "On Fairy-stories." Why doesn't Tolkien give us the eucatastrophe, and then "and they all lived happily ever after," or something to that effect?
Why, in particular, must Frodo and Sam separate? Even if they both live happy lives, it is sad to learn that they must live them in different worlds. But it isn't just Frodo who is departing or fading or diminishing, but the elves and ents and dwarves and Gandalf, too. Rivendell and Lothlorien are no more. The Age of Faerie is ending, the Age of Man has begun. Even though there is much to be happy about, that's really sad. Well I wasn't going to quote your whole post but...what to leave out? Never having read (yet) "On Fairy-stories" all I can base an opinion on is what's stated above. Well...I don't know why Tolkien departed from the happily ever after plot but I am sooo glad he did! I've read enough of those types...the ones where the end is the *end* and I'm left thinking "HEY I wanna know more!!!" Well...I certainly got *more* with LotR and, oh yes, it is long and bittersweet. But that's part of *life* --it's not all happily ever after. Interesting how Tolkien was able to combine this grand, long tale of Men, Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves and the rest then pull back another curtain and show more.
|
|
|
Dreamdeer
Valinor
Dec 12 2008, 4:26pm
Post #18 of 24
(2003 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Biography does play a part after all.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Perhaps Tolkien lost faith in "Happily ever after" when his side won the war, but at the cost of one of his sons returning home with post-traumatic stress. Or maybe it wasn't a loss of faith, but a father's natural instinct to rise to his son's defense, when so many people to this day do not honor those who buy their nation's freedom at the price of losing their minds, whereas someone who loses a body part gets saluted as a hero. Didn't Tolkien originally plan to have Frodo return happily ever after? Perhaps love for his son made him want instead to portray a realistic veteran with a lasting psychological/spiritual war-wound, and shout to the world, "This is a hero, too! He is even more heroic for the nature of his wound, not less!" Parenthood trumps any literary point that an Oxford Don might want to make about literature.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
|
|
|
Curious
Half-elven
Dec 12 2008, 5:41pm
Post #19 of 24
(1989 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Tolkien seemed determined to publish
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
"On Fairy-stories," and also revised it for publication, in 1966, long after he published LotR. I doubt that he had changed his mind about the essay. I think it is more likely that the fairy-story contained within LotR ends with Aragorn's marriage, and the rest of the tale is something else, a mixture of a good-bye to Faerie and a hello to the Age of Men, which looks much more like the Primary World. Except that Frodo chooses to say good-bye to the Age of Men. It's almost like they are returning from a dream, as Merry says, except that Frodo proves it wasn't a dream by choosing not to return.
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Dec 12 2008, 6:36pm
Post #20 of 24
(1983 views)
Shortcut
|
Also, I expect ElanorTX will have something to say about Frodo's remark from late in the next chapter, when Arwen arrives: "This is the ending."
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Dec. 8-15 for "The Steward and the King".
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.
|
|
|
Curious
Half-elven
Dec 12 2008, 8:37pm
Post #21 of 24
(1975 views)
Shortcut
|
1966. But I trust you over Wikipedia.
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Dec 12 2008, 9:09pm
Post #22 of 24
(1982 views)
Shortcut
|
...gives the correct date, 1966, for The Tolkien Reader, but not the date of 1964 for Tree and Leaf, though it does mention that work. It was for Tree and Leaf that Tolkien revised "On Fairy-stories", though not drastically, from the version he had published in 1947 in Essays Presented to Charles Williams. Tolkien made no changes for The Tolkien Reader, though there are some typos in that volume's printing of the essay, for instance "adventures" where Tolkien had "aventures". There are more typos in the TR reproduction of "The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth, Beorhthelm's Son", including "woven stars" for "woven staves".
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Dec. 8-15 for "The Steward and the King".
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.
|
|
|
Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Dec 12 2008, 10:02pm
Post #23 of 24
(1988 views)
Shortcut
|
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 4:39am
Post #24 of 24
(1991 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Sam here could be Tolkien himself, c. 1940.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Pretty early in the writing process, say by the time the story reached Moria, Tolkien knew, in broad strokes, that the Ring would somehow go into the fire though Frodo would fail, and that the forces of the West would have a final battle at the gates of Sauron’s land, but the whole Saruman-Fangorn-Rohan plot (plus most of the details of Gondor) had yet to be invented.
Thanks for this week, a.s.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Mar. 16-22 for a free discussion on the entire book.
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.
|
|
|
|
|
